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Question for John and Mrs. Atkins

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  • Mike Dolph
    Do any of the Sail designs include specs and design details for hollow rectangular section masts with internal halyards? I tried to describe these to a
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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      Do any of the Sail designs include specs and design details for
      hollow
      rectangular section masts with internal halyards? I tried to
      describe
      these to a Brazilian fellow on another list and I think I failed
      miserably. I couldn't think of a cite except Bruce
      Bingham's "Ferrocement Boatbuilding" which is "out of print" and I
      can't remember ever seeing this online. If Mrs. Atkins has access to
      engineering tables etc. or perhaps access to Bruce Bingham who I
      believe may still work as an illustrator could such information be
      published/sold? There seems to be a dearth of information on the
      subject of wooden mast design and building and it's one of those
      technologies that is just now being lost for lack of use in the USA.
      For once it would be nice to save something for posterity before all
      the practitioners are dead.

      Mike Dolph
    • Wayne
      ... I can t answer for John or Mrs. Atkin. I can say that I would be very skeptical of running halyards inside a hollow wooden spar. Too many chances for
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdewolfe@a...> wrote:
        > Do any of the Sail designs include specs and design details for
        > hollow
        > rectangular section masts with internal halyards?

        > Mike Dolph

        I can't answer for John or Mrs. Atkin. I can say that I would be very
        skeptical of running halyards inside a hollow wooden spar. Too many
        chances for moisture to rot the spar from the inside. The hollow spar
        plans I have seen also call for solid blocking in the way of
        spreaders, tangs, etc.

        I don't have the books at hand right now-I'm at work and the books
        are at home, but I am sure that the type of construction you are
        talking about is addressed by one or more of the following authors:

        John Gardner
        Sam Rabl
        Robert Steward
        Bud McIntosh
        The Gougeon Brothers
        Howard Chapelle
        John Guzzwell
        Back issues of WoodenBoat Magazine

        I hope this helps.

        Wayne
        In the Swamp.
      • James Oppy
        Mike, I would also think the exit from the hollow spar near the deck would weaken the spar significantly. The more halyards, the more holes, the less
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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          Mike,



          I would also think the exit from the hollow spar near the deck would weaken
          the spar significantly. The more halyards, the more holes, the less
          structural engineering integrity of the spar. I don't know this to be a
          fact, but am guessing based on amateur observation.



          Jim



          James D. Oppy, Esq.

          _____

          From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Wayne
          Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 1:50 PM
          To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Question for John and Mrs. Atkins



          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdewolfe@a...> wrote:
          > Do any of the Sail designs include specs and design details for
          > hollow
          > rectangular section masts with internal halyards?

          > Mike Dolph

          I can't answer for John or Mrs. Atkin. I can say that I would be very
          skeptical of running halyards inside a hollow wooden spar. Too many
          chances for moisture to rot the spar from the inside. The hollow spar
          plans I have seen also call for solid blocking in the way of
          spreaders, tangs, etc.

          I don't have the books at hand right now-I'm at work and the books
          are at home, but I am sure that the type of construction you are
          talking about is addressed by one or more of the following authors:

          John Gardner
          Sam Rabl
          Robert Steward
          Bud McIntosh
          The Gougeon Brothers
          Howard Chapelle
          John Guzzwell
          Back issues of WoodenBoat Magazine

          I hope this helps.

          Wayne
          In the Swamp.





          No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery. Please be polite.

          If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the plans. If
          you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and Atkin & Co. will
          take no responsibility for the performance of the resulting boat.

          The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
          <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>






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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mike Dolph
          Just the same these things existed, as I recall pipe bushings were used in the way of the spreaders so through bolts could be used to attach the spreaders and
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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            Just the same these things existed, as I recall pipe bushings were
            used in the way of the spreaders so through bolts could be used to
            attach the spreaders and stays with out deforming the mast
            structure. I believe this was the high tech game until aluminum
            became commonly available. The "secrets" were guarded and it's these
            sort of engineering secrets that get lost as folks guard their
            interests right into the grave.

            Mike Dolph

            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <wtorry@v...> wrote:
            > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdewolfe@a...>
            wrote:
            > > Do any of the Sail designs include specs and design details for
            > > hollow
            > > rectangular section masts with internal halyards?
            >
            > > Mike Dolph
            >
            > I can't answer for John or Mrs. Atkin. I can say that I would be
            very
            > skeptical of running halyards inside a hollow wooden spar. Too many
            > chances for moisture to rot the spar from the inside. The hollow
            spar
            > plans I have seen also call for solid blocking in the way of
            > spreaders, tangs, etc.
            >
            > I don't have the books at hand right now-I'm at work and the books
            > are at home, but I am sure that the type of construction you are
            > talking about is addressed by one or more of the following authors:
            >
            > John Gardner
            > Sam Rabl
            > Robert Steward
            > Bud McIntosh
            > The Gougeon Brothers
            > Howard Chapelle
            > John Guzzwell
            > Back issues of WoodenBoat Magazine
            >
            > I hope this helps.
            >
            > Wayne
            > In the Swamp.
          • Mike Dolph
            Holes weaken it s true but these masts benefited weight wise by being hollow and strength wise by placing materials further from the axis of stresses (not
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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              Holes weaken it's true but these masts benefited weight wise by being
              hollow and strength wise by placing materials further from the axis
              of stresses (not engineering talk I know but I hope it gets the idea
              across). A hollow beam is more efficient than a solid beam and a
              stayed mast is a beam between it's points of attachment and it's
              stays. It's easy enough to bolster such a beam near it's point of
              attachment at deck level and if it continues to be stepped on the
              bottom of the boat easier still. With modern glues it would be
              entirely possible; Aluminum wins out because of it's cost of
              manufacture and smaller size for a given strength I think. Still
              aluminum mast are not such a good deal in many parts of the world
              away from their points of manufacture and due to import restrictions
              etc.

              Mike Dolph

              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "James Oppy" <jim@b...> wrote:
              > Mike,
              >
              >
              >
              > I would also think the exit from the hollow spar near the deck
              would weaken
              > the spar significantly. The more halyards, the more holes, the less
              > structural engineering integrity of the spar. I don't know this to
              be a
              > fact, but am guessing based on amateur observation.
              >
              >
              >
              > Jim
              >
              >
              >
              > James D. Oppy, Esq.
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of Wayne
              > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 1:50 PM
              > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Question for John and Mrs. Atkins
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdewolfe@a...>
              wrote:
              > > Do any of the Sail designs include specs and design details for
              > > hollow
              > > rectangular section masts with internal halyards?
              >
              > > Mike Dolph
              >
              > I can't answer for John or Mrs. Atkin. I can say that I would be
              very
              > skeptical of running halyards inside a hollow wooden spar. Too many
              > chances for moisture to rot the spar from the inside. The hollow
              spar
              > plans I have seen also call for solid blocking in the way of
              > spreaders, tangs, etc.
              >
              > I don't have the books at hand right now-I'm at work and the books
              > are at home, but I am sure that the type of construction you are
              > talking about is addressed by one or more of the following authors:
              >
              > John Gardner
              > Sam Rabl
              > Robert Steward
              > Bud McIntosh
              > The Gougeon Brothers
              > Howard Chapelle
              > John Guzzwell
              > Back issues of WoodenBoat Magazine
              >
              > I hope this helps.
              >
              > Wayne
              > In the Swamp.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery. Please be
              polite.
              >
              > If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the
              plans. If
              > you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and Atkin & Co.
              will
              > take no responsibility for the performance of the resulting boat.
              >
              > The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
              > <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              >
              >
              > * Visit your group "AtkinBoats
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats> " on the web.
              >
              > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > AtkinBoats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:AtkinBoats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
              >
              > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
              > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Wayne
              ... I think you re making too much of this. There is ample documentation out there. No doubt there is room for a lot of individual customization as well. If
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdewolfe@a...> wrote:
                > Just the same these things existed, as I recall pipe bushings were
                > used in the way of the spreaders so through bolts could be used to
                > attach the spreaders and stays with out deforming the mast
                > structure. I believe this was the high tech game until aluminum
                > became commonly available. The "secrets" were guarded and it's these
                > sort of engineering secrets that get lost as folks guard their
                > interests right into the grave.
                >
                > Mike Dolph

                I think you're making too much of this. There is ample documentation
                out there. No doubt there is room for a lot of individual customization
                as well. If you want internal halyards, go for it.

                As in all things related to boats, the answer is usually, "It depends."
                If you're talking about marconi main and jib halyards, running both of
                those inside a hollow box spar is probably feasible. If you're talking
                about a gaff sloop or cutter, there may not be room inside the mast for
                all of the strings. I have been around a number of production boats
                with aluminum spars and the halyards weren't always run inside the spar.

                One more point: not only will a sealed wooden spar be less likely to
                rot from the inside out, it will also be more buoyant in the event of a
                knockdown.

                The old ways still work. If I remember, I'll thumb through my books and
                plans tonight and see what I can find.

                Wayne
                In the Swamp.
              • Wayne
                ... Have you been to this forum: http://www.briontoss.com/spartalk/ Wayne In the Swamp.
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdewolfe@a...> wrote:
                  > Holes weaken it's true but these masts benefited weight wise by being
                  > hollow and strength wise by placing materials further from the axis
                  > of stresses (not engineering talk I know but I hope it gets the idea
                  > across).

                  > Mike Dolph

                  Have you been to this forum:

                  http://www.briontoss.com/spartalk/

                  Wayne
                  In the Swamp.
                • Wayne
                  ... There seems to be a dearth of information on the ... I can think of a dozen (or maybe more-I can t remember all of them) professional builders whom I have
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdewolfe@a...> wrote:

                    There seems to be a dearth of information on the
                    > subject of wooden mast design and building and it's one of those
                    > technologies that is just now being lost for lack of use in the USA.
                    > For once it would be nice to save something for posterity before all
                    > the practitioners are dead.
                    >
                    > Mike Dolph

                    I can think of a dozen (or maybe more-I can't remember all of them)
                    professional builders whom I have personally met are keeping the craft
                    and skills alive. There is a lot of wooden spar making going on, both
                    solid and hollow. The two big drawbacks to people building hollow spars
                    in far flung places is suitable timber and modern glues. Spar grade
                    spruce or douglas fir and epoxy or resorcinol are probably just as hard
                    to find and maybe more expensive than aluminum extrusions in out of the
                    way places. Local tmiber can be substitiuted if the builder knows what
                    he's doing. That's a whole other can of worms.

                    Wayne
                    In the Swamp.
                  • brianincorv
                    Sam Rabl s book Boatbuilding in Your Own Backyard (which can often be found in libraries and used bookstores), contains information on building very simple
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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                      Sam Rabl's book "Boatbuilding in Your Own Backyard" (which can often
                      be found in libraries and used bookstores), contains information on
                      building very simple rectangular spars out of plywood and lumber.
                      There are plans in the back of the book for several sailboats,
                      including spars, which will provide some examples.

                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdewolfe@a...>
                      wrote:
                      > Do any of the Sail designs include specs and design details for
                      > hollow
                      > rectangular section masts with internal halyards? I tried to
                      > describe
                      > these to a Brazilian fellow on another list and I think I failed
                      > miserably. I couldn't think of a cite except Bruce
                      > Bingham's "Ferrocement Boatbuilding" which is "out of print" and I
                      > can't remember ever seeing this online. If Mrs. Atkins has access
                      to
                      > engineering tables etc. or perhaps access to Bruce Bingham who I
                      > believe may still work as an illustrator could such information be
                      > published/sold? There seems to be a dearth of information on the
                      > subject of wooden mast design and building and it's one of those
                      > technologies that is just now being lost for lack of use in the
                      USA.
                      > For once it would be nice to save something for posterity before
                      all
                      > the practitioners are dead.
                      >
                      > Mike Dolph
                    • Wayne
                      ... Thanks for confirming my idea. It s been awhile since I opened Sam s book and I couldn t remember for sure if he covered spars. I found my copy new at
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "brianincorv" <brianincorv@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > Sam Rabl's book "Boatbuilding in Your Own Backyard" (which can often
                        > be found in libraries and used bookstores), contains information on
                        > building very simple rectangular spars out of plywood and lumber.
                        > There are plans in the back of the book for several sailboats,
                        > including spars, which will provide some examples.

                        Thanks for confirming my idea. It's been awhile since I opened Sam's
                        book and I couldn't remember for sure if he covered spars. I found my
                        copy new at Barnes & Noble. I thought it was out of print and snapped
                        it up immediately.

                        Wayne
                        In the Swamp.
                      • Wayne
                        ... I am beginning to see the forest for all of the trees. I think you are correct to ask if the sail plans show details of mast construction. Boatbuilding
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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                          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdewolfe@a...> wrote:
                          > Do any of the Sail designs include specs and design details for
                          > hollow
                          > rectangular section masts with internal halyards?

                          > Mike Dolph

                          I am beginning to see the forest for all of the trees. I think you
                          are correct to ask if the sail plans show details of mast
                          construction. Boatbuilding books will give you the generalities of
                          spar construction. Each designer will provide his take on how all the
                          bits go together.

                          A great example are Roger Long's drawings available in the internet.

                          Go to this page and scroll down to the sail plan for his 27' Pinky.

                          http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/27Pinky.htm

                          Wayne
                          In the Swamp.
                        • jkohnen@boat-links.com
                          There are several examples of hollow rectangular wooden masts in L. Francis Herreshoff s book Sensible Cruising Designs (Int l Marine 1973), and he writes
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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                            There are several examples of hollow rectangular wooden masts in L. Francis
                            Herreshoff's book Sensible Cruising Designs (Int'l Marine 1973), and he
                            writes about them in The Common Sense of Yacht Design (reprinted by Caravan-
                            Maritime in 1975). Francis Herreshoff was one of the early champions of
                            rectangular spars. I'll look around in my Ideal Series books for Atkin
                            examples. Internal halyards are the kind of go-fast complication that
                            wouldn't appeal to either of the Atkins, so I doubt that I'll find any.

                            On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 17:48:15 -0000, Mike wrote:
                            > Do any of the Sail designs include specs and design details for
                            > hollow
                            > rectangular section masts with internal halyards?
                            > ...

                            --
                            John <jkohnen@...>
                            http://www.boat-links.com/
                            The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can
                            be pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying virtues.
                            <Elizabeth Taylor>
                          • mikegt4
                            I have owned a couple of boats with wood masts/internal halyards. Other than being visually cleaner , I found no advantages over external halyards. An
                            Message 13 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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                              I have owned a couple of boats with wood masts/internal halyards.
                              Other than being "visually cleaner", I found no advantages over
                              external halyards. An internal jam or twist will be an event to
                              remember. At least one of my masts had a compression tube between the
                              spreaders, just like aluminum masts.

                              Built-up wood masts weren't rocket science, just the "norm" at one
                              time. Most designers of "homebuilt" boats in the 60's and 70's
                              included built-up wood masts in their plans to satisfy the "cost
                              conscious" builder. Sitka was cheap, aluminum was expensive. Bingham,
                              Skene's/Kinney, Roberts, Glen-L, Piver, Jim Brown amoung others all
                              had wooden mast building chapters in their construction manuals.
                              Herreshoff and Bolger show mast construction in detail in many of
                              their books. It's out there, just not popular anymore. You can find
                              these books in larger libraries, usually in the "nobody checks me out
                              anymore" section (which can be a gold mine to the old boat lover).
                              Used book stores in the coastal areas are also a great source.
                              Good hunting


                              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdewolfe@a...> wrote:
                              > Do any of the Sail designs include specs and design details for
                              > hollow
                              > rectangular section masts with internal halyards? I tried to
                              > describe
                              > these to a Brazilian fellow on another list and I think I failed
                              > miserably. I couldn't think of a cite except Bruce
                              > Bingham's "Ferrocement Boatbuilding" which is "out of print" and I
                              > can't remember ever seeing this online. If Mrs. Atkins has access
                              to
                              > engineering tables etc. or perhaps access to Bruce Bingham who I
                              > believe may still work as an illustrator could such information be
                              > published/sold? There seems to be a dearth of information on the
                              > subject of wooden mast design and building and it's one of those
                              > technologies that is just now being lost for lack of use in the
                              USA.
                              > For once it would be nice to save something for posterity before
                              all
                              > the practitioners are dead.
                              >
                              > Mike Dolph
                            • David Lightfoot
                              It s been a long timeand I can t remember the boat or builder but I vaguely recall someone with a largish catboat sporting a marconi sail with such an
                              Message 14 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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                                It's been a long timeand I can't remember the boat or builder but I
                                vaguely recall someone with a largish catboat sporting a marconi sail with
                                such an arrangement. He ran metal tubes for 1) the halyard, 2) the
                                replacement halyard for when the main got screwed up , and 3) a wire
                                running through one of the halyard tubes to be used to fish another halyard
                                when the second got screwed up. Honestly, I don't think he figured on all
                                this screwing up to happen on the same trip, he just didn't like the idea
                                of ever actually fixing the setup. I also don't know if he went through
                                all those gyrations with the halyards and wires.

                                David Lightfoot

                                At 01:55 PM 8/1/2005, you wrote:
                                >Mike,
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >I would also think the exit from the hollow spar near the deck would weaken
                                >the spar significantly. The more halyards, the more holes, the less
                                >structural engineering integrity of the spar. I don't know this to be a
                                >fact, but am guessing based on amateur observation.
                                >
                                >


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                                Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/2005
                              • Mike Dolph
                                Well actually the part you quoted wasn t me; must of been one of the other geniuses. Mike Dolph ... I ... sail with ... wire ... halyard ... on all ... the
                                Message 15 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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                                  Well actually the part you quoted wasn't me; must of been one of the
                                  other geniuses.

                                  Mike Dolph

                                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, David Lightfoot <dlight@k...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > It's been a long timeand I can't remember the boat or builder but
                                  I
                                  > vaguely recall someone with a largish catboat sporting a marconi
                                  sail with
                                  > such an arrangement. He ran metal tubes for 1) the halyard, 2) the
                                  > replacement halyard for when the main got screwed up , and 3) a
                                  wire
                                  > running through one of the halyard tubes to be used to fish another
                                  halyard
                                  > when the second got screwed up. Honestly, I don't think he figured
                                  on all
                                  > this screwing up to happen on the same trip, he just didn't like
                                  the idea
                                  > of ever actually fixing the setup. I also don't know if he went
                                  through
                                  > all those gyrations with the halyards and wires.
                                  >
                                  > David Lightfoot
                                  >
                                  > At 01:55 PM 8/1/2005, you wrote:
                                  > >Mike,
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >I would also think the exit from the hollow spar near the deck
                                  would weaken
                                  > >the spar significantly. The more halyards, the more holes, the
                                  less
                                  > >structural engineering integrity of the spar. I don't know this
                                  to be a
                                  > >fact, but am guessing based on amateur observation.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                  > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                  > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date:
                                  7/28/2005
                                • Wayne
                                  ... That wouldn t be me. I don t know much. It s a good thing wooden boats aren t like rocket science or I would be totally lost. I said I would look and I
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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                                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdewolfe@a...> wrote:

                                    ...must of been one of the other geniuses.
                                    >
                                    > Mike Dolph

                                    That wouldn't be me. I don't know much. It's a good thing wooden boats
                                    aren't like rocket science or I would be totally lost.

                                    I said I would look and I did. I opened the first book my hand fell on.
                                    Sure enough there is enough information there to build a hollow wooden
                                    mast. I opened a roll of plans and there is enough information there to
                                    fabricate the fittings for the mast.

                                    Internal halyards optional at the builders discretion.

                                    Wayne
                                    Learning something new everyday In the Swamp.
                                  • David Lightfoot
                                    I knew that and I m sorry. I made the oft done mistake of quoting a qoute that had been chopped up. And I thought I was fairly good at keeping things
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Aug 1, 2005
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                                      I knew that and I'm sorry. I made the oft done mistake of quoting a qoute
                                      that had been chopped up. And I thought I was fairly good at keeping
                                      things accurate in that respect.
                                      And I still can't remember what site I saw it on.

                                      At 07:11 PM 8/1/2005, you wrote:
                                      >Well actually the part you quoted wasn't me; must of been one of the
                                      >other geniuses.
                                      >
                                      >Mike Dolph


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