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Re: Atkin plans, how much detail and what come with them

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  • John Cupp
    Thank you for the answers about the plans. To answer your question about strip planking then cold molding over the top of that, I would first take small strips
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 27, 2005
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      Thank you for the answers about the plans.

      To answer your question about strip planking then cold molding over
      the top of that, I would first take small strips that had a bull
      nose profile on one side and a fitting hollow on the other. You
      have to put in sub frames to get the curve of the boat right when
      doing this. They are removed after strip planking is done. You use
      epoxy to glue down each strip so that there are no holes and you can
      even use white oak strips on the bottom and red cedar from the
      waterline up. I have been experimenting and when you add a new type
      of dye to the epoxy it looks like small stripes between the wood
      strips of any color you wish and the interior looks great where it
      has to be exposed when this is done. They even make gold metal
      flake dye if you want to get very fancy. On any type of laminations
      it looks dynamite also. Especially knees

      Once all the strips are in place you cold mold the hull by placing
      veneer at 90% angles across each other in two different layers sort
      of like a radial tire. Then final layer of veneer that lays front
      to back. these layers are made from western red cedar and if you
      only use cold molding it can be as light as a carbon fiber craft.
      The strip planking gives a little more material to epoxy the cold
      molding strips to, plus it makes the inner frames work like the
      designer wanted so the boat is much stiffer than just cold molding.
      So you can't get 1/2" strips 45' long but you can finger joint the
      strips before you run them through the router to put the bull nose
      and hollows on them. That way the finger joint is much stronger than
      a plain scarf joint with about four times the glued surface. When
      you epoxy then down you can use string to make them stay tied down
      or you can use a nail gun with the settings so the 18 gauge brad is
      still above the surface and is pulled out before you cold mold over
      that. It takes more time to build like this but it is much less
      expensive in the long run.

      When you cold mold the veneer down you use staples but they are also
      pulled and the hole epoxied over before the next layer is put down.
      They make very fair hulls and the weight is tons lighter than
      planking a hull. In fact that is the way companies make moulds for
      fiberglass hulls. They make a male hull then cover it with plastic
      and make a female hull from the first hull like I will be making.
      They then fair the inside of the female mould with bondo to make is
      glass smooth then they can build a plastic boat inside of that.

      Many catamarans are made by cold molding the hulls and next to
      carbon fiber which by the way must bake in a giant oven is the
      lightest way to build any hull. They have giant sloops over 150'
      lon built from the cold molding process The red Cedar with epoxy
      stops any type of marine borer from eating wood hulls in the
      southern latitudes. Marine borers just love planked boats unless
      you use anti fouling paint and fiberglass sheeting Even then when
      you rub the dead wood on a coral head or sandy beach you rub off
      your protection and marine borers can eat a doug fir boat in one
      season of tropical sailing. A very good book to read about Cold
      Molding is by John Guzzwell. The Book's name is Modern Wooden Yacht
      Construction , cold molding, Joinery and Fitting Out. He actually
      built a Jay Benford double ended boat that is a near cousin to the
      Atkin Eric. Jay references the Atkin's double enders often. The
      35' cold molded motor sailer that John Guzzwell builds uses more
      lead ballast in the keel because the whole boat is so much lighter.
      You have more weight to use for fuel and supplies not to mention
      better speed and no bilge water leaking from stuffed seams. Being
      completely sealed from moisture the red cedar stays in place and the
      hulls when they are on the hard being painted don't shrink and leak.

      William Atkin died just before cold molding became popular but I am
      sure with his shallow draft tunnel hulled boats he would have been
      delighted to see a material that could make the type of bends and
      curves needed to make those hulls work their best and very easy for
      a home builder to use.

      John

      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, DirtSailor <dirtsailor2003@y...>
      wrote:
      > I must inquire as to what kind of strip built we are
      > refering too. My assumption from the original post
      > would be that the inner layer would be stripped then
      > sheathed over much like a stripper canoe. The second
      > post sounds more like plank on frame, with a form of
      > caulking, may it be cotton, Sika or otherwise, between
      > the planks which when full of water swell up and seal.
      > Are these assumptions correct?
      >
      > As for the plans, The plans for Trim that I purchased
      > include the original article, boy I wish the bill of
      > materials still cost what is listed! Any one have
      > plans fora time machine? All the other information
      > needed to build the boat is there, however, it does
      > require full lofting, so one would need to be skilled
      > in laying down lines. I must say that the
      > Draftsmanship is superb. I work in the residential
      > design business and since the advent of computers I
      > know I couldn't draft like that anymore. It is my
      > opinion that the price of the plans are well worth
      > what is there.
      >
      > DirtSailor
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      > http://mail.yahoo.com
    • jkohnen@boat-links.com
      Here s a belated reply. I was hoping someone who has bought the plans for one of the large Atkin boats would pipe up and tell us about them. You see, I
      Message 2 of 12 , May 8, 2005
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        Here's a belated reply. I was hoping someone who has bought the plans for
        one of the large Atkin boats would pipe up and tell us about them. <shrug>
        You see, I haven't actually seen the entire plans for any of the large
        boats. From the bits and pieces I've seen I'd say that there are lines
        drawings and offsets; interior layout; construction profile, plan and
        several cross sections; sail plan and good drawings of the rigging details
        and any unusual bits and pieces elsewhere in the boat. There won't be any
        step by step details on interior construction, and the designer(s) assume
        that the builder knows how to build a boat, so there will be no how-to
        instruction about the building process. Most of the plans come with a
        reprint of the MoToR BoatinG article about the boat, which explains the
        general construction. The plans that weren't published in MoToR BoatinG
        probably don't come with any text that isn't on the drawings, but the
        drawings are complete enough for anyone who knows how to build a boat. All
        but a couple of the small, simple boats in the catalog require lofting -- a
        good idea anyway, my sole experience with full-size templates wasn't a happy
        one. :o(

        What if you don't know how to build a boat? There are several books that
        will tell you enough about boatbuilding to get you started. The Atkin boats
        are built traditional style. H. I. Chapelle's Boatbuilding and Robert
        Steward's Boatbuilding Manual are good books about regular wood
        construction. Boatbuilding with Plywood by Glen L. Witt is a good book about
        the "sticks and nails" type of plywood construction the Atkins intended. You
        can buy these books through the Atkin site (and I get a kickback! <g>):

        http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Books/

        If you have no experience building boats the old-fasioned way you really
        should build one of the smaller boats in the catalog before tackilng one of
        the big boats.

        --
        John <jkohnen@...>
        http://www.boat-links.com/
        The trouble with the school of experience
        is that the graduates are too old to go to work. <Henry Ford>
      • jkohnen@boat-links.com
        Any additional deck structure will adversely affect performance, but if you keep a hard dodger or pilothouse as low and light as possible it might not hurt
        Message 3 of 12 , May 8, 2005
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          Any additional deck structure will adversely affect performance, but if you
          keep a hard dodger or pilothouse as low and light as possible it might not
          hurt things much. Of equal importance, all too often the "improvements"
          people make to the superstructures of their boats spoil the looks, if they
          don't end up making the poor boat butt-ugly. <sigh> A recent example is the
          little Fenwick Williams canoe yawl in the latest Wooden Boat, where a few
          inches extra height in the cabin sides an some extra crown in the top made
          the cabin look ungainly.

          For a boat the size of Little Ranger traditional carvel construction is best
          in the long run. You aren't going to be trailering a boat that size, so
          there's no harm in the swelling. Strip and cold-molded construction is more
          expensive and involves working with lots of unpleasant goop. :ob Regular old
          plank-on-frame construction is infinitely repairable too, you can build a
          boat that way that will last for generations with a little care.

          A complete neophyte can easily build some of the small, simple Atkin designs
          from the plans and accompanying MoToR BoatinG article. For the more complex
          small boats the neophyte should study some of the books on boatbuilding
          available through the page below. With the help of the books they should be
          able to build any of the small boats if they're reasonably handy:

          http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Books/index.html

          On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:14:08 -0000, John C wrote:
          > ...
          > I joined this group out of curiosity because a reader of my column
          > emailed me about the Atkin plans and wanted to know what they
          > contained. After looking at the plans and seeing the boats I might
          > just build one of these for my vacation boat to Mexico every
          > winter.
          > ...
          > I have been looking at the Little Ranger.
          > ...
          > but I wonder if a pilothouse/hard dodger
          > would come under those restraints? I have been thinking of strip
          > planking with cold molding over that to make a hull that will not
          > swell with water infiltration. The pilot house is so I can keep
          > green cold Pacific water off my back and boots when I have to beat
          > back north through the many storms that are in the Pacific at that
          > time of year. Plus I can always put up two extra people in hammocks
          > inside the confines of a pilot house.
          > ...
          > In any case could someone who has a set of plans fill me in about
          > the content and if a complete neophyte could build one of the
          > smaller designs.
          > ...

          --
          John <jkohnen@...>
          http://www.boat-links.com/
          After all, all he did was string together a lot of old,
          well-known quotations. <H. L. Mencken on Shakespeare>
        • jkohnen@boat-links.com
          Now that I m started I can t stop putting in my two cents! The Atkins assumed that anyone tackling the big boats would be familiar with general
          Message 4 of 12 , May 8, 2005
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            Now that I'm started I can't stop putting in my two cents! <g> The Atkins
            assumed that anyone tackling the big boats would be familiar with general
            boatbuilding. A neophyte would be foolish to start in on a boat like Little
            Ranger without having a smaller plank-on-frame boat under their belt.

            Little Ranger will spend most of her life (all of it in mild climates like
            the NW) in the water. If strip-planked, the strips will swell up and stay
            sealed without any goop between the strips, so it makes little sense to go
            through the mess and expense. If the boat ever fell into neglect and spent a
            lot of time out of the water the strips would shrink to smaller width than
            when they were new. If the 5200 was still sticking it might hold tight
            enough to split the strips, if it failed, you'd have a whole bunch of s**t
            to reef out of the seams. :o( Without goop, even if you can see light
            through the seams after a few years on the hard, they'll swell tight again
            when you get the boat back in the water.

            I'd thought that strip-planking was newer, maybe arising in the 1920s or so,
            but a fellow I know has a strip-planked rowboat built on Coos Bay in the
            1890s. No goop between the strips of course. <g> There were lots of sawmills
            around the bay back then and they probably used edge-cut scraps and resawn
            rejected planks for the strips -- free or nearly so wood -- just like the
            first strip-builders Back East...

            On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:53:32 -0000, John D wrote:
            > ...
            > If a neophyte like me was building
            > something like Little Ranger I'd want lots of advice and drawings of
            > all structural subsystems like engine beds, mast steps, and very
            > specific directions/drawings on how to assemble that keel, stem, and
            > deadwood/shaft log. I'd probably leave it at strip planked with out
            > sheathing of any kind with marine adhesive (3M or Sikaflex) between
            > the strips.
            > ...

            --
            John <jkohnen@...>
            http://www.boat-links.com/
            One boat just leads to another.
            <John Kohnen>
          • lon wells
            Both John and William Atkin were well versed in the art of Drafting. I appreciate well done prints and I can be very critical. Based on the Levee Belle prints
            Message 5 of 12 , May 9, 2005
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              Both John and William Atkin were well versed in the art of Drafting. I appreciate well done prints and I can be very critical. Based on the Levee Belle prints I bought. Their prints are very well done with alot of attention to detail. These are hand done blueprints before the days of Cad. You could frame these prints as marine art. I have worked on Navy Prints and commercial Shipbuilding prints Atkin is equal to the best of these.

              Pat Atkin who is a artist with a eye for detail wrote me a note about the Levee Belle prints that even she could not tell the difference between John's work and William's on the drafting boards.

              Both father and son had built boats and were two of the most prolific designers with close to 900 designs. So when you study your prints you will see that Atkin knew how to design a boat for the water and the builder.

              Blueprints are a language from the designer to the builder. Like a music score is from the composer to the musician, sheet music does not show you how to play a instrument it tells you how to play a song. You can learn the skills to build your boat. Remember there was a day you could not walk or use the toilet. You fell down some and had a few messes but now you have those skills. So when you start working on your boat you will fall down some and have a few messes but in the end you will have a boat that you built with your own hands. The first day you take your hand made boat on the water will be a spacial moment in your life that you will always remember.
              Good luck shipmate
              Lon





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            • jkohnen@boat-links.com
              Well put Lon. Few of us are so innately inept that we can t learn to build a boat. Depending on how our minds work, some of us can get a head start from books,
              Message 6 of 12 , May 11, 2005
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                Well put Lon.

                Few of us are so innately inept that we can't learn to build a boat.
                Depending on how our minds work, some of us can get a head start from books,
                some from step-by-step plans, and some of us might do better if shown some
                of the tricks -- or various combinations of the above for most of us,
                probably -- but it's not rocket science, and we can do it. For the simple
                boats in the Atkin catalog there's enough in the MoToR BoatinG articles for
                most tyros to figure out how to build the boats, and then they can use that
                knowledge as a leg-up towards building bigger and more complicated projects.

                I have nothing against the many "instant" type boat plans (except I
                personally don't like working with lots of goop), but I think their
                designers capitalize on the lack of confidence many amateurs seem to suffer
                nowadays. "Oh, I couldn't ever build a boat, but this doesn't look like
                building a boat, with no lofting or bevels or close fits. I could do that!"
                they think. But they _can_ build a boat the old-fashioned way, lots of
                amateurs have, all it takes is some patience and a bit of gumption to take
                the first step. And you don't need a shop full of expensive tools. Other
                than the hammers and saws and drills everybody has around (but get the saws
                or blades sharpened) a plane or two and a few chisels are about all you
                need, and they can usually be found at a local junk store.

                The most important requirement for any kind of boatbuilding is the ability
                to start a project and see it through to completion. It helps a lot if you
                enjoy the building itself. If you're most interested in getting on the water
                you'll be better off buying a boat. I enjoy making chips and sawdust, I
                don't enjoy smearing goop. I'm not too bad of a woodworker but, alas, I have
                trouble getting projects started and finishing them (the part in between
                usually isn't a problem). <sigh> But I have launched a boat I built with my
                own hands (and little goop) and it sure did feel good! :o)

                On Mon, 9 May 2005 01:10:03 -0700 (PDT), Lon wrote:
                > ...
                > Both father and son had built boats and were two of the most prolific
                designers with close to 900 designs. So when you study your prints you will
                see that Atkin knew how to design a boat for the water and the builder.
                >
                > Blueprints are a language from the designer to the builder. Like a music
                score is from the composer to the musician, sheet music does not show you
                how to play a instrument it tells you how to play a song. You can learn the
                skills to build your boat. Remember there was a day you could not walk or
                use the toilet. You fell down some and had a few messes but now you have
                those skills. So when you start working on your boat you will fall down
                some and have a few messes but in the end you will have a boat that you
                built with your own hands. The first day you take your hand made boat on
                the water will be a spacial moment in your life that you will always
                remember.

                --
                John <jkohnen@...>
                http://www.boat-links.com/
                Nobody ought to wear a Greek fisherman's hat unless
                they meet two conditions:
                1. He is a Greek
                2. He is a Fisherman <Roy Blount Jr.>
              • John Cupp
                I did send this link to the fellow that asked me about the Atkin designs. I appreciate your explanation about all of the building for the fellow that asked
                Message 7 of 12 , May 14, 2005
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                  I did send this link to the fellow that asked me about the Atkin
                  designs. I appreciate your explanation about all of the building
                  for the fellow that asked me. I am a writer for a couple of
                  magazines that are for boat builders. I have built many planked
                  boats over forty feet and steel boats longer than 100'. I am very
                  familiar with swelling wood but I cant see how using a hammer and
                  iron to stuff caulking in seams is any easier that using a
                  controlled amount of epoxy and the sealing the wood so that no
                  swelling takes place at all. Besides I have repaired many planked
                  hulls and they need re-caulking if you do your maintenance right
                  about every seven or eight years. With strip planking and cold
                  molding the hull might last fifty years without any type of wood
                  damage or repairs. I have rebuilt many wooden fishing boats that
                  used cheap plated nails that rust and destroy the planking around
                  them through electrolysis and rot. Some of the boats had iron
                  plated fitting, perfect for building on the cheap but I use silicon
                  bronze screws or ring shanked nails. And scrounging up 316 stainless
                  for fitting is sort of a hobby of mine and they don't rust and fall
                  off like plated iron. Besides strip planking and cold molding are
                  often cheaper than planking because planking is very hard to find
                  and I have wood milled from a friends portable mill that I bring him
                  for $0.50 a board foot .

                  I would not change any Atkin design and at best I think now that a
                  soft dodger would be fine because my wife would not like being out
                  in any storms. The Little Ranger would be in tropical waters when I
                  sail to Mexico and I have seen the borer damage that occurs south of
                  the border in Mexico. Planked hulls and big uncovered wooden
                  rudders are eaten away inside a year. I my self can't stand a steel
                  hull, you roast in the heat and freeze in the cold. I am also
                  familiar with lofting and built my first boat when I was eight years
                  old. It was a skin on frame kayak but still a boat and I have not
                  stopped building since then.. I had a Chappel boat building book
                  given to me on my tenth birthday and it explains lofting better than
                  most..

                  I have emailed Pat Atkin and explained about my reader and also my
                  cruising desires with Little Ranger. I have fished hundreds of
                  miles off the coats for Tuna in a double ended Monterey hulled
                  boat. I want a good boat under me with my wife and sister's family
                  sailing with me and none are better than a good double ender.
                  Besides I might even take it farther south than Mexico so who knows
                  if it would just stay in the NW? My wife expressed the desire to go
                  to Australia a few days ago and I think little ranger would do that
                  very easily. Since I am not as young as I once was I would like
                  as little heavy maintenance as possible. I never liked taking short
                  cuts when building and I think an Atkin design does not allow that.
                  Besides I would not allow it on my boat and that includes the engine.

                  I did not actually know that the Atkin plans were still for sale and
                  it makes me very happy that such boats are still going to be built
                  from the original plan and not some other designers concept of what
                  they should be. Thank you for all the information!

                  John Cupp
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Johnstoolcrib/






                  .






                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, jkohnen@b... wrote:
                  > Well put Lon.
                  >
                  > Few of us are so innately inept that we can't learn to build a
                  boat.
                  > Depending on how our minds work, some of us can get a head start
                  from books,
                  > some from step-by-step plans, and some of us might do better if
                  shown some
                  > of the tricks -- or various combinations of the above for most of
                  us,
                  > probably -- but it's not rocket science, and we can do it. For the
                  simple
                  > boats in the Atkin catalog there's enough in the MoToR BoatinG
                  articles for
                  > most tyros to figure out how to build the boats, and then they can
                  use that
                  > knowledge as a leg-up towards building bigger and more complicated
                  projects.
                  >
                  > I have nothing against the many "instant" type boat plans (except I
                  > personally don't like working with lots of goop), but I think their
                  > designers capitalize on the lack of confidence many amateurs seem
                  to suffer
                  > nowadays. "Oh, I couldn't ever build a boat, but this doesn't look
                  like
                  > building a boat, with no lofting or bevels or close fits. I could
                  do that!"
                  > they think. But they _can_ build a boat the old-fashioned way,
                  lots of
                  > amateurs have, all it takes is some patience and a bit of gumption
                  to take
                  > the first step. And you don't need a shop full of expensive tools.
                  Other
                  > than the hammers and saws and drills everybody has around (but get
                  the saws
                  > or blades sharpened) a plane or two and a few chisels are about
                  all you
                  > need, and they can usually be found at a local junk store.
                  >
                  > The most important requirement for any kind of boatbuilding is the
                  ability
                  > to start a project and see it through to completion. It helps a
                  lot if you
                  > enjoy the building itself. If you're most interested in getting on
                  the water
                  > you'll be better off buying a boat. I enjoy making chips and
                  sawdust, I
                  > don't enjoy smearing goop. I'm not too bad of a woodworker but,
                  alas, I have
                  > trouble getting projects started and finishing them (the part in
                  between
                  > usually isn't a problem). <sigh> But I have launched a boat I
                  built with my
                  > own hands (and little goop) and it sure did feel good! :o)
                  >
                  > On Mon, 9 May 2005 01:10:03 -0700 (PDT), Lon wrote:
                  > > ...
                  > > Both father and son had built boats and were two of the most
                  prolific
                  > designers with close to 900 designs. So when you study your
                  prints you will
                  > see that Atkin knew how to design a boat for the water and the
                  builder.
                  > >
                  > > Blueprints are a language from the designer to the builder.
                  Like a music
                  > score is from the composer to the musician, sheet music does not
                  show you
                  > how to play a instrument it tells you how to play a song. You can
                  learn the
                  > skills to build your boat. Remember there was a day you could not
                  walk or
                  > use the toilet. You fell down some and had a few messes but now
                  you have
                  > those skills. So when you start working on your boat you will
                  fall down
                  > some and have a few messes but in the end you will have a boat
                  that you
                  > built with your own hands. The first day you take your hand made
                  boat on
                  > the water will be a spacial moment in your life that you will
                  always
                  > remember.
                  >
                  > --
                  > John <jkohnen@b...>
                  > http://www.boat-links.com/
                  > Nobody ought to wear a Greek fisherman's hat unless
                  > they meet two conditions:
                  > 1. He is a Greek
                  > 2. He is a Fisherman <Roy Blount Jr.>
                • Wayne
                  ... from books, ... shown some ... us, ... simple ... articles for ... use that ... projects. ... to suffer ... like ... do that! ... of ... to take ... Other
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 17, 2005
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                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, jkohnen@b... wrote:
                    > Well put Lon.
                    >
                    > Few of us are so innately inept that we can't learn to build a boat.
                    > Depending on how our minds work, some of us can get a head start
                    from books,
                    > some from step-by-step plans, and some of us might do better if
                    shown some
                    > of the tricks -- or various combinations of the above for most of
                    us,
                    > probably -- but it's not rocket science, and we can do it. For the
                    simple
                    > boats in the Atkin catalog there's enough in the MoToR BoatinG
                    articles for
                    > most tyros to figure out how to build the boats, and then they can
                    use that
                    > knowledge as a leg-up towards building bigger and more complicated
                    projects.
                    >
                    > I have nothing against the many "instant" type boat plans (except I
                    > personally don't like working with lots of goop), but I think their
                    > designers capitalize on the lack of confidence many amateurs seem
                    to suffer
                    > nowadays. "Oh, I couldn't ever build a boat, but this doesn't look
                    like
                    > building a boat, with no lofting or bevels or close fits. I could
                    do that!"
                    > they think. But they _can_ build a boat the old-fashioned way, lots
                    of
                    > amateurs have, all it takes is some patience and a bit of gumption
                    to take
                    > the first step. And you don't need a shop full of expensive tools.
                    Other
                    > than the hammers and saws and drills everybody has around (but get
                    the saws
                    > or blades sharpened) a plane or two and a few chisels are about all
                    you
                    > need, and they can usually be found at a local junk store.
                    >
                    > The most important requirement for any kind of boatbuilding is the
                    ability
                    > to start a project and see it through to completion. It helps a lot
                    if you
                    > enjoy the building itself. If you're most interested in getting on
                    the water
                    > you'll be better off buying a boat. I enjoy making chips and
                    sawdust, I
                    > don't enjoy smearing goop. I'm not too bad of a woodworker but,
                    alas, I have
                    > trouble getting projects started and finishing them (the part in
                    between
                    > usually isn't a problem). <sigh> But I have launched a boat I built
                    with my
                    > own hands (and little goop) and it sure did feel good! :o)

                    John,

                    Keep talking and you will convince me that I can build a boat. Having
                    never done it before. Not owning any tools worth mentioning. All
                    thumbs and two left feet. I've been dreaming about this longer than I
                    care to admit. One of these days, by golly I'm going to do it.

                    Wayne
                    In the Swamp.
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