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Re: [AtkinBoats] Re: Atkin plans, how much detail and what come with them

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  • DirtSailor
    I must inquire as to what kind of strip built we are refering too. My assumption from the original post would be that the inner layer would be stripped then
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 26, 2005
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      I must inquire as to what kind of strip built we are
      refering too. My assumption from the original post
      would be that the inner layer would be stripped then
      sheathed over much like a stripper canoe. The second
      post sounds more like plank on frame, with a form of
      caulking, may it be cotton, Sika or otherwise, between
      the planks which when full of water swell up and seal.
      Are these assumptions correct?

      As for the plans, The plans for Trim that I purchased
      include the original article, boy I wish the bill of
      materials still cost what is listed! Any one have
      plans fora time machine? All the other information
      needed to build the boat is there, however, it does
      require full lofting, so one would need to be skilled
      in laying down lines. I must say that the
      Draftsmanship is superb. I work in the residential
      design business and since the advent of computers I
      know I couldn't draft like that anymore. It is my
      opinion that the price of the plans are well worth
      what is there.

      DirtSailor

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    • John Cupp
      Thank you for the answers about the plans. To answer your question about strip planking then cold molding over the top of that, I would first take small strips
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 27, 2005
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        Thank you for the answers about the plans.

        To answer your question about strip planking then cold molding over
        the top of that, I would first take small strips that had a bull
        nose profile on one side and a fitting hollow on the other. You
        have to put in sub frames to get the curve of the boat right when
        doing this. They are removed after strip planking is done. You use
        epoxy to glue down each strip so that there are no holes and you can
        even use white oak strips on the bottom and red cedar from the
        waterline up. I have been experimenting and when you add a new type
        of dye to the epoxy it looks like small stripes between the wood
        strips of any color you wish and the interior looks great where it
        has to be exposed when this is done. They even make gold metal
        flake dye if you want to get very fancy. On any type of laminations
        it looks dynamite also. Especially knees

        Once all the strips are in place you cold mold the hull by placing
        veneer at 90% angles across each other in two different layers sort
        of like a radial tire. Then final layer of veneer that lays front
        to back. these layers are made from western red cedar and if you
        only use cold molding it can be as light as a carbon fiber craft.
        The strip planking gives a little more material to epoxy the cold
        molding strips to, plus it makes the inner frames work like the
        designer wanted so the boat is much stiffer than just cold molding.
        So you can't get 1/2" strips 45' long but you can finger joint the
        strips before you run them through the router to put the bull nose
        and hollows on them. That way the finger joint is much stronger than
        a plain scarf joint with about four times the glued surface. When
        you epoxy then down you can use string to make them stay tied down
        or you can use a nail gun with the settings so the 18 gauge brad is
        still above the surface and is pulled out before you cold mold over
        that. It takes more time to build like this but it is much less
        expensive in the long run.

        When you cold mold the veneer down you use staples but they are also
        pulled and the hole epoxied over before the next layer is put down.
        They make very fair hulls and the weight is tons lighter than
        planking a hull. In fact that is the way companies make moulds for
        fiberglass hulls. They make a male hull then cover it with plastic
        and make a female hull from the first hull like I will be making.
        They then fair the inside of the female mould with bondo to make is
        glass smooth then they can build a plastic boat inside of that.

        Many catamarans are made by cold molding the hulls and next to
        carbon fiber which by the way must bake in a giant oven is the
        lightest way to build any hull. They have giant sloops over 150'
        lon built from the cold molding process The red Cedar with epoxy
        stops any type of marine borer from eating wood hulls in the
        southern latitudes. Marine borers just love planked boats unless
        you use anti fouling paint and fiberglass sheeting Even then when
        you rub the dead wood on a coral head or sandy beach you rub off
        your protection and marine borers can eat a doug fir boat in one
        season of tropical sailing. A very good book to read about Cold
        Molding is by John Guzzwell. The Book's name is Modern Wooden Yacht
        Construction , cold molding, Joinery and Fitting Out. He actually
        built a Jay Benford double ended boat that is a near cousin to the
        Atkin Eric. Jay references the Atkin's double enders often. The
        35' cold molded motor sailer that John Guzzwell builds uses more
        lead ballast in the keel because the whole boat is so much lighter.
        You have more weight to use for fuel and supplies not to mention
        better speed and no bilge water leaking from stuffed seams. Being
        completely sealed from moisture the red cedar stays in place and the
        hulls when they are on the hard being painted don't shrink and leak.

        William Atkin died just before cold molding became popular but I am
        sure with his shallow draft tunnel hulled boats he would have been
        delighted to see a material that could make the type of bends and
        curves needed to make those hulls work their best and very easy for
        a home builder to use.

        John

        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, DirtSailor <dirtsailor2003@y...>
        wrote:
        > I must inquire as to what kind of strip built we are
        > refering too. My assumption from the original post
        > would be that the inner layer would be stripped then
        > sheathed over much like a stripper canoe. The second
        > post sounds more like plank on frame, with a form of
        > caulking, may it be cotton, Sika or otherwise, between
        > the planks which when full of water swell up and seal.
        > Are these assumptions correct?
        >
        > As for the plans, The plans for Trim that I purchased
        > include the original article, boy I wish the bill of
        > materials still cost what is listed! Any one have
        > plans fora time machine? All the other information
        > needed to build the boat is there, however, it does
        > require full lofting, so one would need to be skilled
        > in laying down lines. I must say that the
        > Draftsmanship is superb. I work in the residential
        > design business and since the advent of computers I
        > know I couldn't draft like that anymore. It is my
        > opinion that the price of the plans are well worth
        > what is there.
        >
        > DirtSailor
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        > http://mail.yahoo.com
      • jkohnen@boat-links.com
        Here s a belated reply. I was hoping someone who has bought the plans for one of the large Atkin boats would pipe up and tell us about them. You see, I
        Message 3 of 12 , May 8, 2005
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          Here's a belated reply. I was hoping someone who has bought the plans for
          one of the large Atkin boats would pipe up and tell us about them. <shrug>
          You see, I haven't actually seen the entire plans for any of the large
          boats. From the bits and pieces I've seen I'd say that there are lines
          drawings and offsets; interior layout; construction profile, plan and
          several cross sections; sail plan and good drawings of the rigging details
          and any unusual bits and pieces elsewhere in the boat. There won't be any
          step by step details on interior construction, and the designer(s) assume
          that the builder knows how to build a boat, so there will be no how-to
          instruction about the building process. Most of the plans come with a
          reprint of the MoToR BoatinG article about the boat, which explains the
          general construction. The plans that weren't published in MoToR BoatinG
          probably don't come with any text that isn't on the drawings, but the
          drawings are complete enough for anyone who knows how to build a boat. All
          but a couple of the small, simple boats in the catalog require lofting -- a
          good idea anyway, my sole experience with full-size templates wasn't a happy
          one. :o(

          What if you don't know how to build a boat? There are several books that
          will tell you enough about boatbuilding to get you started. The Atkin boats
          are built traditional style. H. I. Chapelle's Boatbuilding and Robert
          Steward's Boatbuilding Manual are good books about regular wood
          construction. Boatbuilding with Plywood by Glen L. Witt is a good book about
          the "sticks and nails" type of plywood construction the Atkins intended. You
          can buy these books through the Atkin site (and I get a kickback! <g>):

          http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Books/

          If you have no experience building boats the old-fasioned way you really
          should build one of the smaller boats in the catalog before tackilng one of
          the big boats.

          --
          John <jkohnen@...>
          http://www.boat-links.com/
          The trouble with the school of experience
          is that the graduates are too old to go to work. <Henry Ford>
        • jkohnen@boat-links.com
          Any additional deck structure will adversely affect performance, but if you keep a hard dodger or pilothouse as low and light as possible it might not hurt
          Message 4 of 12 , May 8, 2005
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            Any additional deck structure will adversely affect performance, but if you
            keep a hard dodger or pilothouse as low and light as possible it might not
            hurt things much. Of equal importance, all too often the "improvements"
            people make to the superstructures of their boats spoil the looks, if they
            don't end up making the poor boat butt-ugly. <sigh> A recent example is the
            little Fenwick Williams canoe yawl in the latest Wooden Boat, where a few
            inches extra height in the cabin sides an some extra crown in the top made
            the cabin look ungainly.

            For a boat the size of Little Ranger traditional carvel construction is best
            in the long run. You aren't going to be trailering a boat that size, so
            there's no harm in the swelling. Strip and cold-molded construction is more
            expensive and involves working with lots of unpleasant goop. :ob Regular old
            plank-on-frame construction is infinitely repairable too, you can build a
            boat that way that will last for generations with a little care.

            A complete neophyte can easily build some of the small, simple Atkin designs
            from the plans and accompanying MoToR BoatinG article. For the more complex
            small boats the neophyte should study some of the books on boatbuilding
            available through the page below. With the help of the books they should be
            able to build any of the small boats if they're reasonably handy:

            http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Books/index.html

            On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:14:08 -0000, John C wrote:
            > ...
            > I joined this group out of curiosity because a reader of my column
            > emailed me about the Atkin plans and wanted to know what they
            > contained. After looking at the plans and seeing the boats I might
            > just build one of these for my vacation boat to Mexico every
            > winter.
            > ...
            > I have been looking at the Little Ranger.
            > ...
            > but I wonder if a pilothouse/hard dodger
            > would come under those restraints? I have been thinking of strip
            > planking with cold molding over that to make a hull that will not
            > swell with water infiltration. The pilot house is so I can keep
            > green cold Pacific water off my back and boots when I have to beat
            > back north through the many storms that are in the Pacific at that
            > time of year. Plus I can always put up two extra people in hammocks
            > inside the confines of a pilot house.
            > ...
            > In any case could someone who has a set of plans fill me in about
            > the content and if a complete neophyte could build one of the
            > smaller designs.
            > ...

            --
            John <jkohnen@...>
            http://www.boat-links.com/
            After all, all he did was string together a lot of old,
            well-known quotations. <H. L. Mencken on Shakespeare>
          • jkohnen@boat-links.com
            Now that I m started I can t stop putting in my two cents! The Atkins assumed that anyone tackling the big boats would be familiar with general
            Message 5 of 12 , May 8, 2005
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              Now that I'm started I can't stop putting in my two cents! <g> The Atkins
              assumed that anyone tackling the big boats would be familiar with general
              boatbuilding. A neophyte would be foolish to start in on a boat like Little
              Ranger without having a smaller plank-on-frame boat under their belt.

              Little Ranger will spend most of her life (all of it in mild climates like
              the NW) in the water. If strip-planked, the strips will swell up and stay
              sealed without any goop between the strips, so it makes little sense to go
              through the mess and expense. If the boat ever fell into neglect and spent a
              lot of time out of the water the strips would shrink to smaller width than
              when they were new. If the 5200 was still sticking it might hold tight
              enough to split the strips, if it failed, you'd have a whole bunch of s**t
              to reef out of the seams. :o( Without goop, even if you can see light
              through the seams after a few years on the hard, they'll swell tight again
              when you get the boat back in the water.

              I'd thought that strip-planking was newer, maybe arising in the 1920s or so,
              but a fellow I know has a strip-planked rowboat built on Coos Bay in the
              1890s. No goop between the strips of course. <g> There were lots of sawmills
              around the bay back then and they probably used edge-cut scraps and resawn
              rejected planks for the strips -- free or nearly so wood -- just like the
              first strip-builders Back East...

              On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:53:32 -0000, John D wrote:
              > ...
              > If a neophyte like me was building
              > something like Little Ranger I'd want lots of advice and drawings of
              > all structural subsystems like engine beds, mast steps, and very
              > specific directions/drawings on how to assemble that keel, stem, and
              > deadwood/shaft log. I'd probably leave it at strip planked with out
              > sheathing of any kind with marine adhesive (3M or Sikaflex) between
              > the strips.
              > ...

              --
              John <jkohnen@...>
              http://www.boat-links.com/
              One boat just leads to another.
              <John Kohnen>
            • lon wells
              Both John and William Atkin were well versed in the art of Drafting. I appreciate well done prints and I can be very critical. Based on the Levee Belle prints
              Message 6 of 12 , May 9, 2005
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                Both John and William Atkin were well versed in the art of Drafting. I appreciate well done prints and I can be very critical. Based on the Levee Belle prints I bought. Their prints are very well done with alot of attention to detail. These are hand done blueprints before the days of Cad. You could frame these prints as marine art. I have worked on Navy Prints and commercial Shipbuilding prints Atkin is equal to the best of these.

                Pat Atkin who is a artist with a eye for detail wrote me a note about the Levee Belle prints that even she could not tell the difference between John's work and William's on the drafting boards.

                Both father and son had built boats and were two of the most prolific designers with close to 900 designs. So when you study your prints you will see that Atkin knew how to design a boat for the water and the builder.

                Blueprints are a language from the designer to the builder. Like a music score is from the composer to the musician, sheet music does not show you how to play a instrument it tells you how to play a song. You can learn the skills to build your boat. Remember there was a day you could not walk or use the toilet. You fell down some and had a few messes but now you have those skills. So when you start working on your boat you will fall down some and have a few messes but in the end you will have a boat that you built with your own hands. The first day you take your hand made boat on the water will be a spacial moment in your life that you will always remember.
                Good luck shipmate
                Lon





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              • jkohnen@boat-links.com
                Well put Lon. Few of us are so innately inept that we can t learn to build a boat. Depending on how our minds work, some of us can get a head start from books,
                Message 7 of 12 , May 11, 2005
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                  Well put Lon.

                  Few of us are so innately inept that we can't learn to build a boat.
                  Depending on how our minds work, some of us can get a head start from books,
                  some from step-by-step plans, and some of us might do better if shown some
                  of the tricks -- or various combinations of the above for most of us,
                  probably -- but it's not rocket science, and we can do it. For the simple
                  boats in the Atkin catalog there's enough in the MoToR BoatinG articles for
                  most tyros to figure out how to build the boats, and then they can use that
                  knowledge as a leg-up towards building bigger and more complicated projects.

                  I have nothing against the many "instant" type boat plans (except I
                  personally don't like working with lots of goop), but I think their
                  designers capitalize on the lack of confidence many amateurs seem to suffer
                  nowadays. "Oh, I couldn't ever build a boat, but this doesn't look like
                  building a boat, with no lofting or bevels or close fits. I could do that!"
                  they think. But they _can_ build a boat the old-fashioned way, lots of
                  amateurs have, all it takes is some patience and a bit of gumption to take
                  the first step. And you don't need a shop full of expensive tools. Other
                  than the hammers and saws and drills everybody has around (but get the saws
                  or blades sharpened) a plane or two and a few chisels are about all you
                  need, and they can usually be found at a local junk store.

                  The most important requirement for any kind of boatbuilding is the ability
                  to start a project and see it through to completion. It helps a lot if you
                  enjoy the building itself. If you're most interested in getting on the water
                  you'll be better off buying a boat. I enjoy making chips and sawdust, I
                  don't enjoy smearing goop. I'm not too bad of a woodworker but, alas, I have
                  trouble getting projects started and finishing them (the part in between
                  usually isn't a problem). <sigh> But I have launched a boat I built with my
                  own hands (and little goop) and it sure did feel good! :o)

                  On Mon, 9 May 2005 01:10:03 -0700 (PDT), Lon wrote:
                  > ...
                  > Both father and son had built boats and were two of the most prolific
                  designers with close to 900 designs. So when you study your prints you will
                  see that Atkin knew how to design a boat for the water and the builder.
                  >
                  > Blueprints are a language from the designer to the builder. Like a music
                  score is from the composer to the musician, sheet music does not show you
                  how to play a instrument it tells you how to play a song. You can learn the
                  skills to build your boat. Remember there was a day you could not walk or
                  use the toilet. You fell down some and had a few messes but now you have
                  those skills. So when you start working on your boat you will fall down
                  some and have a few messes but in the end you will have a boat that you
                  built with your own hands. The first day you take your hand made boat on
                  the water will be a spacial moment in your life that you will always
                  remember.

                  --
                  John <jkohnen@...>
                  http://www.boat-links.com/
                  Nobody ought to wear a Greek fisherman's hat unless
                  they meet two conditions:
                  1. He is a Greek
                  2. He is a Fisherman <Roy Blount Jr.>
                • John Cupp
                  I did send this link to the fellow that asked me about the Atkin designs. I appreciate your explanation about all of the building for the fellow that asked
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 14, 2005
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                    I did send this link to the fellow that asked me about the Atkin
                    designs. I appreciate your explanation about all of the building
                    for the fellow that asked me. I am a writer for a couple of
                    magazines that are for boat builders. I have built many planked
                    boats over forty feet and steel boats longer than 100'. I am very
                    familiar with swelling wood but I cant see how using a hammer and
                    iron to stuff caulking in seams is any easier that using a
                    controlled amount of epoxy and the sealing the wood so that no
                    swelling takes place at all. Besides I have repaired many planked
                    hulls and they need re-caulking if you do your maintenance right
                    about every seven or eight years. With strip planking and cold
                    molding the hull might last fifty years without any type of wood
                    damage or repairs. I have rebuilt many wooden fishing boats that
                    used cheap plated nails that rust and destroy the planking around
                    them through electrolysis and rot. Some of the boats had iron
                    plated fitting, perfect for building on the cheap but I use silicon
                    bronze screws or ring shanked nails. And scrounging up 316 stainless
                    for fitting is sort of a hobby of mine and they don't rust and fall
                    off like plated iron. Besides strip planking and cold molding are
                    often cheaper than planking because planking is very hard to find
                    and I have wood milled from a friends portable mill that I bring him
                    for $0.50 a board foot .

                    I would not change any Atkin design and at best I think now that a
                    soft dodger would be fine because my wife would not like being out
                    in any storms. The Little Ranger would be in tropical waters when I
                    sail to Mexico and I have seen the borer damage that occurs south of
                    the border in Mexico. Planked hulls and big uncovered wooden
                    rudders are eaten away inside a year. I my self can't stand a steel
                    hull, you roast in the heat and freeze in the cold. I am also
                    familiar with lofting and built my first boat when I was eight years
                    old. It was a skin on frame kayak but still a boat and I have not
                    stopped building since then.. I had a Chappel boat building book
                    given to me on my tenth birthday and it explains lofting better than
                    most..

                    I have emailed Pat Atkin and explained about my reader and also my
                    cruising desires with Little Ranger. I have fished hundreds of
                    miles off the coats for Tuna in a double ended Monterey hulled
                    boat. I want a good boat under me with my wife and sister's family
                    sailing with me and none are better than a good double ender.
                    Besides I might even take it farther south than Mexico so who knows
                    if it would just stay in the NW? My wife expressed the desire to go
                    to Australia a few days ago and I think little ranger would do that
                    very easily. Since I am not as young as I once was I would like
                    as little heavy maintenance as possible. I never liked taking short
                    cuts when building and I think an Atkin design does not allow that.
                    Besides I would not allow it on my boat and that includes the engine.

                    I did not actually know that the Atkin plans were still for sale and
                    it makes me very happy that such boats are still going to be built
                    from the original plan and not some other designers concept of what
                    they should be. Thank you for all the information!

                    John Cupp
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Johnstoolcrib/






                    .






                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, jkohnen@b... wrote:
                    > Well put Lon.
                    >
                    > Few of us are so innately inept that we can't learn to build a
                    boat.
                    > Depending on how our minds work, some of us can get a head start
                    from books,
                    > some from step-by-step plans, and some of us might do better if
                    shown some
                    > of the tricks -- or various combinations of the above for most of
                    us,
                    > probably -- but it's not rocket science, and we can do it. For the
                    simple
                    > boats in the Atkin catalog there's enough in the MoToR BoatinG
                    articles for
                    > most tyros to figure out how to build the boats, and then they can
                    use that
                    > knowledge as a leg-up towards building bigger and more complicated
                    projects.
                    >
                    > I have nothing against the many "instant" type boat plans (except I
                    > personally don't like working with lots of goop), but I think their
                    > designers capitalize on the lack of confidence many amateurs seem
                    to suffer
                    > nowadays. "Oh, I couldn't ever build a boat, but this doesn't look
                    like
                    > building a boat, with no lofting or bevels or close fits. I could
                    do that!"
                    > they think. But they _can_ build a boat the old-fashioned way,
                    lots of
                    > amateurs have, all it takes is some patience and a bit of gumption
                    to take
                    > the first step. And you don't need a shop full of expensive tools.
                    Other
                    > than the hammers and saws and drills everybody has around (but get
                    the saws
                    > or blades sharpened) a plane or two and a few chisels are about
                    all you
                    > need, and they can usually be found at a local junk store.
                    >
                    > The most important requirement for any kind of boatbuilding is the
                    ability
                    > to start a project and see it through to completion. It helps a
                    lot if you
                    > enjoy the building itself. If you're most interested in getting on
                    the water
                    > you'll be better off buying a boat. I enjoy making chips and
                    sawdust, I
                    > don't enjoy smearing goop. I'm not too bad of a woodworker but,
                    alas, I have
                    > trouble getting projects started and finishing them (the part in
                    between
                    > usually isn't a problem). <sigh> But I have launched a boat I
                    built with my
                    > own hands (and little goop) and it sure did feel good! :o)
                    >
                    > On Mon, 9 May 2005 01:10:03 -0700 (PDT), Lon wrote:
                    > > ...
                    > > Both father and son had built boats and were two of the most
                    prolific
                    > designers with close to 900 designs. So when you study your
                    prints you will
                    > see that Atkin knew how to design a boat for the water and the
                    builder.
                    > >
                    > > Blueprints are a language from the designer to the builder.
                    Like a music
                    > score is from the composer to the musician, sheet music does not
                    show you
                    > how to play a instrument it tells you how to play a song. You can
                    learn the
                    > skills to build your boat. Remember there was a day you could not
                    walk or
                    > use the toilet. You fell down some and had a few messes but now
                    you have
                    > those skills. So when you start working on your boat you will
                    fall down
                    > some and have a few messes but in the end you will have a boat
                    that you
                    > built with your own hands. The first day you take your hand made
                    boat on
                    > the water will be a spacial moment in your life that you will
                    always
                    > remember.
                    >
                    > --
                    > John <jkohnen@b...>
                    > http://www.boat-links.com/
                    > Nobody ought to wear a Greek fisherman's hat unless
                    > they meet two conditions:
                    > 1. He is a Greek
                    > 2. He is a Fisherman <Roy Blount Jr.>
                  • Wayne
                    ... from books, ... shown some ... us, ... simple ... articles for ... use that ... projects. ... to suffer ... like ... do that! ... of ... to take ... Other
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 17, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, jkohnen@b... wrote:
                      > Well put Lon.
                      >
                      > Few of us are so innately inept that we can't learn to build a boat.
                      > Depending on how our minds work, some of us can get a head start
                      from books,
                      > some from step-by-step plans, and some of us might do better if
                      shown some
                      > of the tricks -- or various combinations of the above for most of
                      us,
                      > probably -- but it's not rocket science, and we can do it. For the
                      simple
                      > boats in the Atkin catalog there's enough in the MoToR BoatinG
                      articles for
                      > most tyros to figure out how to build the boats, and then they can
                      use that
                      > knowledge as a leg-up towards building bigger and more complicated
                      projects.
                      >
                      > I have nothing against the many "instant" type boat plans (except I
                      > personally don't like working with lots of goop), but I think their
                      > designers capitalize on the lack of confidence many amateurs seem
                      to suffer
                      > nowadays. "Oh, I couldn't ever build a boat, but this doesn't look
                      like
                      > building a boat, with no lofting or bevels or close fits. I could
                      do that!"
                      > they think. But they _can_ build a boat the old-fashioned way, lots
                      of
                      > amateurs have, all it takes is some patience and a bit of gumption
                      to take
                      > the first step. And you don't need a shop full of expensive tools.
                      Other
                      > than the hammers and saws and drills everybody has around (but get
                      the saws
                      > or blades sharpened) a plane or two and a few chisels are about all
                      you
                      > need, and they can usually be found at a local junk store.
                      >
                      > The most important requirement for any kind of boatbuilding is the
                      ability
                      > to start a project and see it through to completion. It helps a lot
                      if you
                      > enjoy the building itself. If you're most interested in getting on
                      the water
                      > you'll be better off buying a boat. I enjoy making chips and
                      sawdust, I
                      > don't enjoy smearing goop. I'm not too bad of a woodworker but,
                      alas, I have
                      > trouble getting projects started and finishing them (the part in
                      between
                      > usually isn't a problem). <sigh> But I have launched a boat I built
                      with my
                      > own hands (and little goop) and it sure did feel good! :o)

                      John,

                      Keep talking and you will convince me that I can build a boat. Having
                      never done it before. Not owning any tools worth mentioning. All
                      thumbs and two left feet. I've been dreaming about this longer than I
                      care to admit. One of these days, by golly I'm going to do it.

                      Wayne
                      In the Swamp.
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