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Atkin plans, how much detail and what come with them

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  • John Cupp
    Hello folks, I joined this group out of curiosity because a reader of my column emailed me about the Atkin plans and wanted to know what they contained. After
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 26, 2005
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      Hello folks,

      I joined this group out of curiosity because a reader of my column
      emailed me about the Atkin plans and wanted to know what they
      contained. After looking at the plans and seeing the boats I might
      just build one of these for my vacation boat to Mexico every
      winter. I was injured and retired permanently from my job early. I
      live in Oregon and have an anchorage on the Columbia river can use
      in the summer. In the fall my wife and I can sail down the coast to
      Baja and get away from the miserable cold weather, ice and snow. My
      poor joints and bones can tell when a storm is heading in and I do
      not want to end up in a trailer home in Arizona.

      My Sister and her kids and husband will visit so I have been looking
      at the Little Ranger. Of course I have built many boats and fished
      and sailed on hundreds more. When I look at the Atkin boats I see
      that the double enders that other designers draw up all come from a
      common ancestor. I see the warnings in all the Atkin's plans not to
      change them in any way but I wonder if a pilothouse/hard dodger
      would come under those restraints? I have been thinking of strip
      planking with cold molding over that to make a hull that will not
      swell with water infiltration. The pilot house is so I can keep
      green cold Pacific water off my back and boots when I have to beat
      back north through the many storms that are in the Pacific at that
      time of year. Plus I can always put up two extra people in hammocks
      inside the confines of a pilot house. Sleeping on deck is always a
      bad idea near Baja when the winds can come up to gale force within
      minutes, all under a star filled sky

      In any case could someone who has a set of plans fill me in about
      the content and if a complete neophyte could build one of the
      smaller designs. I write a tool column in Duckworks Magazine and
      have written in Messing about in boats and hopefully by the end of
      the year in a few more magazines that have been interested in my
      column. I write the Johns Tool Crib column. I have a great spring
      tool extravaganza coming out with many new boat building tools and
      some other interesting articles about utralight boats I am
      building. I also think you should read my plywood article coming
      out and my debunking of Ferro Cement building, it really is a valid
      structural material for hulls. Sorry for my shameless plugs but I
      make no money writing these articles I do it to stay active and pass
      on building experience.

      Till just recently I had no idea that the plans were still for sale
      even though I read articles about the Rescue Minor in Messing About
      In Boats wondering where I could get a set of those plans. You
      really do learn something new each day. So if you could please
      answer my questions about what comes with the plans and how detailed
      they are I would be grateful as would the reader who emailed me.

      Thank You

      John
    • Mike Dolph
      While we are waiting for someone (probably John Konnen) to answer these; I noticed that Little Ranger affords a lot of room for oil changes. It looks like you
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 26, 2005
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        While we are waiting for someone (probably John Konnen) to answer
        these; I noticed that Little Ranger affords a lot of room for oil
        changes. It looks like you could even have a permanent and
        functional sump under the engine to catch all spills. In the plan
        for Russel R. that I bought the original article was included as a
        guide; it was very complete. If a neophyte like me was building
        something like Little Ranger I'd want lots of advice and drawings of
        all structural subsystems like engine beds, mast steps, and very
        specific directions/drawings on how to assemble that keel, stem, and
        deadwood/shaft log. I'd probably leave it at strip planked with out
        sheathing of any kind with marine adhesive (3M or Sikaflex) between
        the strips.

        John Dolph


        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Cupp" <boatdock@k...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hello folks,
        >
        > I joined this group out of curiosity because a reader of my column
        > emailed me about the Atkin plans and wanted to know what they
        > contained. After looking at the plans and seeing the boats I might
        > just build one of these for my vacation boat to Mexico every
        > winter. I was injured and retired permanently from my job early.
        I
        > live in Oregon and have an anchorage on the Columbia river can use
        > in the summer. In the fall my wife and I can sail down the coast
        to
        > Baja and get away from the miserable cold weather, ice and snow.
        My
        > poor joints and bones can tell when a storm is heading in and I do
        > not want to end up in a trailer home in Arizona.
        >
        > My Sister and her kids and husband will visit so I have been
        looking
        > at the Little Ranger. Of course I have built many boats and fished
        > and sailed on hundreds more. When I look at the Atkin boats I see
        > that the double enders that other designers draw up all come from a
        > common ancestor. I see the warnings in all the Atkin's plans not
        to
        > change them in any way but I wonder if a pilothouse/hard dodger
        > would come under those restraints? I have been thinking of strip
        > planking with cold molding over that to make a hull that will not
        > swell with water infiltration. The pilot house is so I can keep
        > green cold Pacific water off my back and boots when I have to beat
        > back north through the many storms that are in the Pacific at that
        > time of year. Plus I can always put up two extra people in hammocks
        > inside the confines of a pilot house. Sleeping on deck is always a
        > bad idea near Baja when the winds can come up to gale force within
        > minutes, all under a star filled sky
        >
        > In any case could someone who has a set of plans fill me in about
        > the content and if a complete neophyte could build one of the
        > smaller designs. I write a tool column in Duckworks Magazine and
        > have written in Messing about in boats and hopefully by the end of
        > the year in a few more magazines that have been interested in my
        > column. I write the Johns Tool Crib column. I have a great spring
        > tool extravaganza coming out with many new boat building tools and
        > some other interesting articles about utralight boats I am
        > building. I also think you should read my plywood article coming
        > out and my debunking of Ferro Cement building, it really is a valid
        > structural material for hulls. Sorry for my shameless plugs but I
        > make no money writing these articles I do it to stay active and
        pass
        > on building experience.
        >
        > Till just recently I had no idea that the plans were still for sale
        > even though I read articles about the Rescue Minor in Messing About
        > In Boats wondering where I could get a set of those plans. You
        > really do learn something new each day. So if you could please
        > answer my questions about what comes with the plans and how
        detailed
        > they are I would be grateful as would the reader who emailed me.
        >
        > Thank You
        >
        > John
      • Wayne
        ... Purely personal opinion based on what several folks have said about such adhesives below the waterline: you d be asking for trouble. The boat would be
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 26, 2005
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          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdolph@s...> wrote:
          ...I'd probably leave it at strip planked with out
          > sheathing of any kind with marine adhesive (3M or Sikaflex) between
          > the strips.
          >
          > John Dolph

          Purely personal opinion based on what several folks have said about
          such adhesives below the waterline: you'd be asking for trouble. The
          boat would be stonger and longer lasting with nothing but galvanized
          nails holding the strips together. The way strip planked boats were
          originally built.

          Wayne
          In the Swamp.
        • DirtSailor
          I must inquire as to what kind of strip built we are refering too. My assumption from the original post would be that the inner layer would be stripped then
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 26, 2005
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            I must inquire as to what kind of strip built we are
            refering too. My assumption from the original post
            would be that the inner layer would be stripped then
            sheathed over much like a stripper canoe. The second
            post sounds more like plank on frame, with a form of
            caulking, may it be cotton, Sika or otherwise, between
            the planks which when full of water swell up and seal.
            Are these assumptions correct?

            As for the plans, The plans for Trim that I purchased
            include the original article, boy I wish the bill of
            materials still cost what is listed! Any one have
            plans fora time machine? All the other information
            needed to build the boat is there, however, it does
            require full lofting, so one would need to be skilled
            in laying down lines. I must say that the
            Draftsmanship is superb. I work in the residential
            design business and since the advent of computers I
            know I couldn't draft like that anymore. It is my
            opinion that the price of the plans are well worth
            what is there.

            DirtSailor

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          • John Cupp
            Thank you for the answers about the plans. To answer your question about strip planking then cold molding over the top of that, I would first take small strips
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 27, 2005
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              Thank you for the answers about the plans.

              To answer your question about strip planking then cold molding over
              the top of that, I would first take small strips that had a bull
              nose profile on one side and a fitting hollow on the other. You
              have to put in sub frames to get the curve of the boat right when
              doing this. They are removed after strip planking is done. You use
              epoxy to glue down each strip so that there are no holes and you can
              even use white oak strips on the bottom and red cedar from the
              waterline up. I have been experimenting and when you add a new type
              of dye to the epoxy it looks like small stripes between the wood
              strips of any color you wish and the interior looks great where it
              has to be exposed when this is done. They even make gold metal
              flake dye if you want to get very fancy. On any type of laminations
              it looks dynamite also. Especially knees

              Once all the strips are in place you cold mold the hull by placing
              veneer at 90% angles across each other in two different layers sort
              of like a radial tire. Then final layer of veneer that lays front
              to back. these layers are made from western red cedar and if you
              only use cold molding it can be as light as a carbon fiber craft.
              The strip planking gives a little more material to epoxy the cold
              molding strips to, plus it makes the inner frames work like the
              designer wanted so the boat is much stiffer than just cold molding.
              So you can't get 1/2" strips 45' long but you can finger joint the
              strips before you run them through the router to put the bull nose
              and hollows on them. That way the finger joint is much stronger than
              a plain scarf joint with about four times the glued surface. When
              you epoxy then down you can use string to make them stay tied down
              or you can use a nail gun with the settings so the 18 gauge brad is
              still above the surface and is pulled out before you cold mold over
              that. It takes more time to build like this but it is much less
              expensive in the long run.

              When you cold mold the veneer down you use staples but they are also
              pulled and the hole epoxied over before the next layer is put down.
              They make very fair hulls and the weight is tons lighter than
              planking a hull. In fact that is the way companies make moulds for
              fiberglass hulls. They make a male hull then cover it with plastic
              and make a female hull from the first hull like I will be making.
              They then fair the inside of the female mould with bondo to make is
              glass smooth then they can build a plastic boat inside of that.

              Many catamarans are made by cold molding the hulls and next to
              carbon fiber which by the way must bake in a giant oven is the
              lightest way to build any hull. They have giant sloops over 150'
              lon built from the cold molding process The red Cedar with epoxy
              stops any type of marine borer from eating wood hulls in the
              southern latitudes. Marine borers just love planked boats unless
              you use anti fouling paint and fiberglass sheeting Even then when
              you rub the dead wood on a coral head or sandy beach you rub off
              your protection and marine borers can eat a doug fir boat in one
              season of tropical sailing. A very good book to read about Cold
              Molding is by John Guzzwell. The Book's name is Modern Wooden Yacht
              Construction , cold molding, Joinery and Fitting Out. He actually
              built a Jay Benford double ended boat that is a near cousin to the
              Atkin Eric. Jay references the Atkin's double enders often. The
              35' cold molded motor sailer that John Guzzwell builds uses more
              lead ballast in the keel because the whole boat is so much lighter.
              You have more weight to use for fuel and supplies not to mention
              better speed and no bilge water leaking from stuffed seams. Being
              completely sealed from moisture the red cedar stays in place and the
              hulls when they are on the hard being painted don't shrink and leak.

              William Atkin died just before cold molding became popular but I am
              sure with his shallow draft tunnel hulled boats he would have been
              delighted to see a material that could make the type of bends and
              curves needed to make those hulls work their best and very easy for
              a home builder to use.

              John

              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, DirtSailor <dirtsailor2003@y...>
              wrote:
              > I must inquire as to what kind of strip built we are
              > refering too. My assumption from the original post
              > would be that the inner layer would be stripped then
              > sheathed over much like a stripper canoe. The second
              > post sounds more like plank on frame, with a form of
              > caulking, may it be cotton, Sika or otherwise, between
              > the planks which when full of water swell up and seal.
              > Are these assumptions correct?
              >
              > As for the plans, The plans for Trim that I purchased
              > include the original article, boy I wish the bill of
              > materials still cost what is listed! Any one have
              > plans fora time machine? All the other information
              > needed to build the boat is there, however, it does
              > require full lofting, so one would need to be skilled
              > in laying down lines. I must say that the
              > Draftsmanship is superb. I work in the residential
              > design business and since the advent of computers I
              > know I couldn't draft like that anymore. It is my
              > opinion that the price of the plans are well worth
              > what is there.
              >
              > DirtSailor
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              > http://mail.yahoo.com
            • jkohnen@boat-links.com
              Here s a belated reply. I was hoping someone who has bought the plans for one of the large Atkin boats would pipe up and tell us about them. You see, I
              Message 6 of 12 , May 8, 2005
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                Here's a belated reply. I was hoping someone who has bought the plans for
                one of the large Atkin boats would pipe up and tell us about them. <shrug>
                You see, I haven't actually seen the entire plans for any of the large
                boats. From the bits and pieces I've seen I'd say that there are lines
                drawings and offsets; interior layout; construction profile, plan and
                several cross sections; sail plan and good drawings of the rigging details
                and any unusual bits and pieces elsewhere in the boat. There won't be any
                step by step details on interior construction, and the designer(s) assume
                that the builder knows how to build a boat, so there will be no how-to
                instruction about the building process. Most of the plans come with a
                reprint of the MoToR BoatinG article about the boat, which explains the
                general construction. The plans that weren't published in MoToR BoatinG
                probably don't come with any text that isn't on the drawings, but the
                drawings are complete enough for anyone who knows how to build a boat. All
                but a couple of the small, simple boats in the catalog require lofting -- a
                good idea anyway, my sole experience with full-size templates wasn't a happy
                one. :o(

                What if you don't know how to build a boat? There are several books that
                will tell you enough about boatbuilding to get you started. The Atkin boats
                are built traditional style. H. I. Chapelle's Boatbuilding and Robert
                Steward's Boatbuilding Manual are good books about regular wood
                construction. Boatbuilding with Plywood by Glen L. Witt is a good book about
                the "sticks and nails" type of plywood construction the Atkins intended. You
                can buy these books through the Atkin site (and I get a kickback! <g>):

                http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Books/

                If you have no experience building boats the old-fasioned way you really
                should build one of the smaller boats in the catalog before tackilng one of
                the big boats.

                --
                John <jkohnen@...>
                http://www.boat-links.com/
                The trouble with the school of experience
                is that the graduates are too old to go to work. <Henry Ford>
              • jkohnen@boat-links.com
                Any additional deck structure will adversely affect performance, but if you keep a hard dodger or pilothouse as low and light as possible it might not hurt
                Message 7 of 12 , May 8, 2005
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                  Any additional deck structure will adversely affect performance, but if you
                  keep a hard dodger or pilothouse as low and light as possible it might not
                  hurt things much. Of equal importance, all too often the "improvements"
                  people make to the superstructures of their boats spoil the looks, if they
                  don't end up making the poor boat butt-ugly. <sigh> A recent example is the
                  little Fenwick Williams canoe yawl in the latest Wooden Boat, where a few
                  inches extra height in the cabin sides an some extra crown in the top made
                  the cabin look ungainly.

                  For a boat the size of Little Ranger traditional carvel construction is best
                  in the long run. You aren't going to be trailering a boat that size, so
                  there's no harm in the swelling. Strip and cold-molded construction is more
                  expensive and involves working with lots of unpleasant goop. :ob Regular old
                  plank-on-frame construction is infinitely repairable too, you can build a
                  boat that way that will last for generations with a little care.

                  A complete neophyte can easily build some of the small, simple Atkin designs
                  from the plans and accompanying MoToR BoatinG article. For the more complex
                  small boats the neophyte should study some of the books on boatbuilding
                  available through the page below. With the help of the books they should be
                  able to build any of the small boats if they're reasonably handy:

                  http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Books/index.html

                  On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:14:08 -0000, John C wrote:
                  > ...
                  > I joined this group out of curiosity because a reader of my column
                  > emailed me about the Atkin plans and wanted to know what they
                  > contained. After looking at the plans and seeing the boats I might
                  > just build one of these for my vacation boat to Mexico every
                  > winter.
                  > ...
                  > I have been looking at the Little Ranger.
                  > ...
                  > but I wonder if a pilothouse/hard dodger
                  > would come under those restraints? I have been thinking of strip
                  > planking with cold molding over that to make a hull that will not
                  > swell with water infiltration. The pilot house is so I can keep
                  > green cold Pacific water off my back and boots when I have to beat
                  > back north through the many storms that are in the Pacific at that
                  > time of year. Plus I can always put up two extra people in hammocks
                  > inside the confines of a pilot house.
                  > ...
                  > In any case could someone who has a set of plans fill me in about
                  > the content and if a complete neophyte could build one of the
                  > smaller designs.
                  > ...

                  --
                  John <jkohnen@...>
                  http://www.boat-links.com/
                  After all, all he did was string together a lot of old,
                  well-known quotations. <H. L. Mencken on Shakespeare>
                • jkohnen@boat-links.com
                  Now that I m started I can t stop putting in my two cents! The Atkins assumed that anyone tackling the big boats would be familiar with general
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 8, 2005
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                    Now that I'm started I can't stop putting in my two cents! <g> The Atkins
                    assumed that anyone tackling the big boats would be familiar with general
                    boatbuilding. A neophyte would be foolish to start in on a boat like Little
                    Ranger without having a smaller plank-on-frame boat under their belt.

                    Little Ranger will spend most of her life (all of it in mild climates like
                    the NW) in the water. If strip-planked, the strips will swell up and stay
                    sealed without any goop between the strips, so it makes little sense to go
                    through the mess and expense. If the boat ever fell into neglect and spent a
                    lot of time out of the water the strips would shrink to smaller width than
                    when they were new. If the 5200 was still sticking it might hold tight
                    enough to split the strips, if it failed, you'd have a whole bunch of s**t
                    to reef out of the seams. :o( Without goop, even if you can see light
                    through the seams after a few years on the hard, they'll swell tight again
                    when you get the boat back in the water.

                    I'd thought that strip-planking was newer, maybe arising in the 1920s or so,
                    but a fellow I know has a strip-planked rowboat built on Coos Bay in the
                    1890s. No goop between the strips of course. <g> There were lots of sawmills
                    around the bay back then and they probably used edge-cut scraps and resawn
                    rejected planks for the strips -- free or nearly so wood -- just like the
                    first strip-builders Back East...

                    On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:53:32 -0000, John D wrote:
                    > ...
                    > If a neophyte like me was building
                    > something like Little Ranger I'd want lots of advice and drawings of
                    > all structural subsystems like engine beds, mast steps, and very
                    > specific directions/drawings on how to assemble that keel, stem, and
                    > deadwood/shaft log. I'd probably leave it at strip planked with out
                    > sheathing of any kind with marine adhesive (3M or Sikaflex) between
                    > the strips.
                    > ...

                    --
                    John <jkohnen@...>
                    http://www.boat-links.com/
                    One boat just leads to another.
                    <John Kohnen>
                  • lon wells
                    Both John and William Atkin were well versed in the art of Drafting. I appreciate well done prints and I can be very critical. Based on the Levee Belle prints
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 9, 2005
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                      Both John and William Atkin were well versed in the art of Drafting. I appreciate well done prints and I can be very critical. Based on the Levee Belle prints I bought. Their prints are very well done with alot of attention to detail. These are hand done blueprints before the days of Cad. You could frame these prints as marine art. I have worked on Navy Prints and commercial Shipbuilding prints Atkin is equal to the best of these.

                      Pat Atkin who is a artist with a eye for detail wrote me a note about the Levee Belle prints that even she could not tell the difference between John's work and William's on the drafting boards.

                      Both father and son had built boats and were two of the most prolific designers with close to 900 designs. So when you study your prints you will see that Atkin knew how to design a boat for the water and the builder.

                      Blueprints are a language from the designer to the builder. Like a music score is from the composer to the musician, sheet music does not show you how to play a instrument it tells you how to play a song. You can learn the skills to build your boat. Remember there was a day you could not walk or use the toilet. You fell down some and had a few messes but now you have those skills. So when you start working on your boat you will fall down some and have a few messes but in the end you will have a boat that you built with your own hands. The first day you take your hand made boat on the water will be a spacial moment in your life that you will always remember.
                      Good luck shipmate
                      Lon





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                    • jkohnen@boat-links.com
                      Well put Lon. Few of us are so innately inept that we can t learn to build a boat. Depending on how our minds work, some of us can get a head start from books,
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 11, 2005
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                        Well put Lon.

                        Few of us are so innately inept that we can't learn to build a boat.
                        Depending on how our minds work, some of us can get a head start from books,
                        some from step-by-step plans, and some of us might do better if shown some
                        of the tricks -- or various combinations of the above for most of us,
                        probably -- but it's not rocket science, and we can do it. For the simple
                        boats in the Atkin catalog there's enough in the MoToR BoatinG articles for
                        most tyros to figure out how to build the boats, and then they can use that
                        knowledge as a leg-up towards building bigger and more complicated projects.

                        I have nothing against the many "instant" type boat plans (except I
                        personally don't like working with lots of goop), but I think their
                        designers capitalize on the lack of confidence many amateurs seem to suffer
                        nowadays. "Oh, I couldn't ever build a boat, but this doesn't look like
                        building a boat, with no lofting or bevels or close fits. I could do that!"
                        they think. But they _can_ build a boat the old-fashioned way, lots of
                        amateurs have, all it takes is some patience and a bit of gumption to take
                        the first step. And you don't need a shop full of expensive tools. Other
                        than the hammers and saws and drills everybody has around (but get the saws
                        or blades sharpened) a plane or two and a few chisels are about all you
                        need, and they can usually be found at a local junk store.

                        The most important requirement for any kind of boatbuilding is the ability
                        to start a project and see it through to completion. It helps a lot if you
                        enjoy the building itself. If you're most interested in getting on the water
                        you'll be better off buying a boat. I enjoy making chips and sawdust, I
                        don't enjoy smearing goop. I'm not too bad of a woodworker but, alas, I have
                        trouble getting projects started and finishing them (the part in between
                        usually isn't a problem). <sigh> But I have launched a boat I built with my
                        own hands (and little goop) and it sure did feel good! :o)

                        On Mon, 9 May 2005 01:10:03 -0700 (PDT), Lon wrote:
                        > ...
                        > Both father and son had built boats and were two of the most prolific
                        designers with close to 900 designs. So when you study your prints you will
                        see that Atkin knew how to design a boat for the water and the builder.
                        >
                        > Blueprints are a language from the designer to the builder. Like a music
                        score is from the composer to the musician, sheet music does not show you
                        how to play a instrument it tells you how to play a song. You can learn the
                        skills to build your boat. Remember there was a day you could not walk or
                        use the toilet. You fell down some and had a few messes but now you have
                        those skills. So when you start working on your boat you will fall down
                        some and have a few messes but in the end you will have a boat that you
                        built with your own hands. The first day you take your hand made boat on
                        the water will be a spacial moment in your life that you will always
                        remember.

                        --
                        John <jkohnen@...>
                        http://www.boat-links.com/
                        Nobody ought to wear a Greek fisherman's hat unless
                        they meet two conditions:
                        1. He is a Greek
                        2. He is a Fisherman <Roy Blount Jr.>
                      • John Cupp
                        I did send this link to the fellow that asked me about the Atkin designs. I appreciate your explanation about all of the building for the fellow that asked
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 14, 2005
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                          I did send this link to the fellow that asked me about the Atkin
                          designs. I appreciate your explanation about all of the building
                          for the fellow that asked me. I am a writer for a couple of
                          magazines that are for boat builders. I have built many planked
                          boats over forty feet and steel boats longer than 100'. I am very
                          familiar with swelling wood but I cant see how using a hammer and
                          iron to stuff caulking in seams is any easier that using a
                          controlled amount of epoxy and the sealing the wood so that no
                          swelling takes place at all. Besides I have repaired many planked
                          hulls and they need re-caulking if you do your maintenance right
                          about every seven or eight years. With strip planking and cold
                          molding the hull might last fifty years without any type of wood
                          damage or repairs. I have rebuilt many wooden fishing boats that
                          used cheap plated nails that rust and destroy the planking around
                          them through electrolysis and rot. Some of the boats had iron
                          plated fitting, perfect for building on the cheap but I use silicon
                          bronze screws or ring shanked nails. And scrounging up 316 stainless
                          for fitting is sort of a hobby of mine and they don't rust and fall
                          off like plated iron. Besides strip planking and cold molding are
                          often cheaper than planking because planking is very hard to find
                          and I have wood milled from a friends portable mill that I bring him
                          for $0.50 a board foot .

                          I would not change any Atkin design and at best I think now that a
                          soft dodger would be fine because my wife would not like being out
                          in any storms. The Little Ranger would be in tropical waters when I
                          sail to Mexico and I have seen the borer damage that occurs south of
                          the border in Mexico. Planked hulls and big uncovered wooden
                          rudders are eaten away inside a year. I my self can't stand a steel
                          hull, you roast in the heat and freeze in the cold. I am also
                          familiar with lofting and built my first boat when I was eight years
                          old. It was a skin on frame kayak but still a boat and I have not
                          stopped building since then.. I had a Chappel boat building book
                          given to me on my tenth birthday and it explains lofting better than
                          most..

                          I have emailed Pat Atkin and explained about my reader and also my
                          cruising desires with Little Ranger. I have fished hundreds of
                          miles off the coats for Tuna in a double ended Monterey hulled
                          boat. I want a good boat under me with my wife and sister's family
                          sailing with me and none are better than a good double ender.
                          Besides I might even take it farther south than Mexico so who knows
                          if it would just stay in the NW? My wife expressed the desire to go
                          to Australia a few days ago and I think little ranger would do that
                          very easily. Since I am not as young as I once was I would like
                          as little heavy maintenance as possible. I never liked taking short
                          cuts when building and I think an Atkin design does not allow that.
                          Besides I would not allow it on my boat and that includes the engine.

                          I did not actually know that the Atkin plans were still for sale and
                          it makes me very happy that such boats are still going to be built
                          from the original plan and not some other designers concept of what
                          they should be. Thank you for all the information!

                          John Cupp
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Johnstoolcrib/






                          .






                          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, jkohnen@b... wrote:
                          > Well put Lon.
                          >
                          > Few of us are so innately inept that we can't learn to build a
                          boat.
                          > Depending on how our minds work, some of us can get a head start
                          from books,
                          > some from step-by-step plans, and some of us might do better if
                          shown some
                          > of the tricks -- or various combinations of the above for most of
                          us,
                          > probably -- but it's not rocket science, and we can do it. For the
                          simple
                          > boats in the Atkin catalog there's enough in the MoToR BoatinG
                          articles for
                          > most tyros to figure out how to build the boats, and then they can
                          use that
                          > knowledge as a leg-up towards building bigger and more complicated
                          projects.
                          >
                          > I have nothing against the many "instant" type boat plans (except I
                          > personally don't like working with lots of goop), but I think their
                          > designers capitalize on the lack of confidence many amateurs seem
                          to suffer
                          > nowadays. "Oh, I couldn't ever build a boat, but this doesn't look
                          like
                          > building a boat, with no lofting or bevels or close fits. I could
                          do that!"
                          > they think. But they _can_ build a boat the old-fashioned way,
                          lots of
                          > amateurs have, all it takes is some patience and a bit of gumption
                          to take
                          > the first step. And you don't need a shop full of expensive tools.
                          Other
                          > than the hammers and saws and drills everybody has around (but get
                          the saws
                          > or blades sharpened) a plane or two and a few chisels are about
                          all you
                          > need, and they can usually be found at a local junk store.
                          >
                          > The most important requirement for any kind of boatbuilding is the
                          ability
                          > to start a project and see it through to completion. It helps a
                          lot if you
                          > enjoy the building itself. If you're most interested in getting on
                          the water
                          > you'll be better off buying a boat. I enjoy making chips and
                          sawdust, I
                          > don't enjoy smearing goop. I'm not too bad of a woodworker but,
                          alas, I have
                          > trouble getting projects started and finishing them (the part in
                          between
                          > usually isn't a problem). <sigh> But I have launched a boat I
                          built with my
                          > own hands (and little goop) and it sure did feel good! :o)
                          >
                          > On Mon, 9 May 2005 01:10:03 -0700 (PDT), Lon wrote:
                          > > ...
                          > > Both father and son had built boats and were two of the most
                          prolific
                          > designers with close to 900 designs. So when you study your
                          prints you will
                          > see that Atkin knew how to design a boat for the water and the
                          builder.
                          > >
                          > > Blueprints are a language from the designer to the builder.
                          Like a music
                          > score is from the composer to the musician, sheet music does not
                          show you
                          > how to play a instrument it tells you how to play a song. You can
                          learn the
                          > skills to build your boat. Remember there was a day you could not
                          walk or
                          > use the toilet. You fell down some and had a few messes but now
                          you have
                          > those skills. So when you start working on your boat you will
                          fall down
                          > some and have a few messes but in the end you will have a boat
                          that you
                          > built with your own hands. The first day you take your hand made
                          boat on
                          > the water will be a spacial moment in your life that you will
                          always
                          > remember.
                          >
                          > --
                          > John <jkohnen@b...>
                          > http://www.boat-links.com/
                          > Nobody ought to wear a Greek fisherman's hat unless
                          > they meet two conditions:
                          > 1. He is a Greek
                          > 2. He is a Fisherman <Roy Blount Jr.>
                        • Wayne
                          ... from books, ... shown some ... us, ... simple ... articles for ... use that ... projects. ... to suffer ... like ... do that! ... of ... to take ... Other
                          Message 12 of 12 , May 17, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, jkohnen@b... wrote:
                            > Well put Lon.
                            >
                            > Few of us are so innately inept that we can't learn to build a boat.
                            > Depending on how our minds work, some of us can get a head start
                            from books,
                            > some from step-by-step plans, and some of us might do better if
                            shown some
                            > of the tricks -- or various combinations of the above for most of
                            us,
                            > probably -- but it's not rocket science, and we can do it. For the
                            simple
                            > boats in the Atkin catalog there's enough in the MoToR BoatinG
                            articles for
                            > most tyros to figure out how to build the boats, and then they can
                            use that
                            > knowledge as a leg-up towards building bigger and more complicated
                            projects.
                            >
                            > I have nothing against the many "instant" type boat plans (except I
                            > personally don't like working with lots of goop), but I think their
                            > designers capitalize on the lack of confidence many amateurs seem
                            to suffer
                            > nowadays. "Oh, I couldn't ever build a boat, but this doesn't look
                            like
                            > building a boat, with no lofting or bevels or close fits. I could
                            do that!"
                            > they think. But they _can_ build a boat the old-fashioned way, lots
                            of
                            > amateurs have, all it takes is some patience and a bit of gumption
                            to take
                            > the first step. And you don't need a shop full of expensive tools.
                            Other
                            > than the hammers and saws and drills everybody has around (but get
                            the saws
                            > or blades sharpened) a plane or two and a few chisels are about all
                            you
                            > need, and they can usually be found at a local junk store.
                            >
                            > The most important requirement for any kind of boatbuilding is the
                            ability
                            > to start a project and see it through to completion. It helps a lot
                            if you
                            > enjoy the building itself. If you're most interested in getting on
                            the water
                            > you'll be better off buying a boat. I enjoy making chips and
                            sawdust, I
                            > don't enjoy smearing goop. I'm not too bad of a woodworker but,
                            alas, I have
                            > trouble getting projects started and finishing them (the part in
                            between
                            > usually isn't a problem). <sigh> But I have launched a boat I built
                            with my
                            > own hands (and little goop) and it sure did feel good! :o)

                            John,

                            Keep talking and you will convince me that I can build a boat. Having
                            never done it before. Not owning any tools worth mentioning. All
                            thumbs and two left feet. I've been dreaming about this longer than I
                            care to admit. One of these days, by golly I'm going to do it.

                            Wayne
                            In the Swamp.
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