Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Small air cooled inboard motors

Expand Messages
  • Mike Dolph
    I don t know of any air cooled engines being made today that are equivalent to motors like the Baby Husky Palmer. Those engines had a long stroke to cylinder
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 5, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      I don't know of any air cooled engines being made today that are
      equivalent to motors like the Baby Husky Palmer. Those engines had a
      long stroke to cylinder diameter ratio that let them deliver more
      torque at lower rpm's. You would need a reduction gear and probably
      need to buy a motor rated at a higher horsepower than Atkin specified
      and run it at near it's best torque instead of at it's highest speed
      in order to deliver the same power to Atkins specified propeller. I
      Have been looking at some Brazilian Yanmar diesels (water cooled) at
      http://www.yanmar.com.br/site/ing2/produtos/nacional/bm/especificacoes.
      doc

      These will deliver the torque to turn your specified propeller but I
      imagine you will end up changing that propeller to one that fits the
      motor you finally settle on.

      Does anyone know all these facts for the Baby Husky and the prop
      speced for the Victor Slocum?

      John Dolph

      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "dmede808" <dmede808@y...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > I am considering building the Victor Slocum, a 15' modified Jersey
      > skiff. The plans call for
      > a small (6hp) air cooled gas inboard. I'm considering a small air
      > cooled diesel from HATZ
      > instead but the hookup should be about the same.
      >
      > Anybody have any good reasources on how to install a small inboard in
      > an open boat like
      > the Victor Slocum?
      >
      > Anybody know of someone who has built the Victor Slocum?
      >
      > Thanks,
      > David
    • dmede808
      Atkin specified a 10 prop with 6 pitch for the Victor Slocum. As you mentioned, RPMs are one of my big concerns. The small diesel I found delivers 7.6hp at
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 6, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Atkin specified a 10" prop with 6" pitch for the Victor Slocum.

        As you mentioned, RPMs are one of my big concerns. The small diesel I found delivers
        7.6hp at max 3600rpms and idles at 800rpms. Highest torque is 13.5lbs.ft at 2000rpms.
        It delivers roughly 5hp at max torque 2000rpm. Probably higher RPM range than the
        Palmer. The Palmer was rated at 6hp at 2500rpms.

        You can find PDF spec sheets of the motor I'm looking at here:
        http://www.hatz-diesel.de/englisch/produkt/1b20_e.htm



        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdolph@s...> wrote:
        >
        > I don't know of any air cooled engines being made today that are
        > equivalent to motors like the Baby Husky Palmer. Those engines had a
        > long stroke to cylinder diameter ratio that let them deliver more
        > torque at lower rpm's. You would need a reduction gear and probably
        > need to buy a motor rated at a higher horsepower than Atkin specified
        > and run it at near it's best torque instead of at it's highest speed
        > in order to deliver the same power to Atkins specified propeller. I
        > Have been looking at some Brazilian Yanmar diesels (water cooled) at
        > http://www.yanmar.com.br/site/ing2/produtos/nacional/bm/especificacoes.
        > doc
        >
        > These will deliver the torque to turn your specified propeller but I
        > imagine you will end up changing that propeller to one that fits the
        > motor you finally settle on.
        >
        > Does anyone know all these facts for the Baby Husky and the prop
        > speced for the Victor Slocum?
        >
        > John Dolph
        >
        > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "dmede808" <dmede808@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > I am considering building the Victor Slocum, a 15' modified Jersey
        > > skiff. The plans call for
        > > a small (6hp) air cooled gas inboard. I'm considering a small air
        > > cooled diesel from HATZ
        > > instead but the hookup should be about the same.
        > >
        > > Anybody have any good reasources on how to install a small inboard in
        > > an open boat like
        > > the Victor Slocum?
        > >
        > > Anybody know of someone who has built the Victor Slocum?
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > > David
      • Mike Dolph
        Those are really interesting engines. I m sorry to keep adding problems with no real ability t help but there is one more necessary component for a marine
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 6, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Those are really interesting engines. I'm sorry to keep adding
          problems with no real ability t help but there is one more necessary
          component for a marine engine. You need a thrust bearing. This is
          the bearing that absorbs the push of the propeller that's
          transimitted up the shaft and transfers it to the hull usually via
          the engine body and engine mounts. The alternative is to have the
          shaft trying to spear through the engine.

          The marine engines have this designed into the reduction gear and the
          forces are taken into account if they will be transmitted via the
          engine block. This might be why we have "reduction/reverser" gears
          vs "transmissions" in other vehicles. It's a fundamentally different
          useage of the power. The United Nations FAO has a design for
          something like this they used in India and I suspect Robb White did
          something similar in his Rescue Minor. As I recall it makes use of
          an automotive constant velocity joint fixed to a plate that's fixed
          to the hull to allow the shaft to be raised out of the water. The
          thrust bearing may have been "homebuilt".


          John Dolph

          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "dmede808" <dmede808@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Atkin specified a 10" prop with 6" pitch for the Victor Slocum.
          >
          > As you mentioned, RPMs are one of my big concerns. The small
          diesel I found delivers
          > 7.6hp at max 3600rpms and idles at 800rpms. Highest torque is
          13.5lbs.ft at 2000rpms.
          > It delivers roughly 5hp at max torque 2000rpm. Probably higher RPM
          range than the
          > Palmer. The Palmer was rated at 6hp at 2500rpms.
          >
          > You can find PDF spec sheets of the motor I'm looking at here:
          > http://www.hatz-diesel.de/englisch/produkt/1b20_e.htm
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdolph@s...> wrote:
          > >
          > > I don't know of any air cooled engines being made today that are
          > > equivalent to motors like the Baby Husky Palmer. Those engines
          had a
          > > long stroke to cylinder diameter ratio that let them deliver more
          > > torque at lower rpm's. You would need a reduction gear and
          probably
          > > need to buy a motor rated at a higher horsepower than Atkin
          specified
          > > and run it at near it's best torque instead of at it's highest
          speed
          > > in order to deliver the same power to Atkins specified
          propeller. I
          > > Have been looking at some Brazilian Yanmar diesels (water cooled)
          at
          > >
          http://www.yanmar.com.br/site/ing2/produtos/nacional/bm/especificacoes
          .
          > > doc
          > >
          > > These will deliver the torque to turn your specified propeller
          but I
          > > imagine you will end up changing that propeller to one that fits
          the
          > > motor you finally settle on.
          > >
          > > Does anyone know all these facts for the Baby Husky and the prop
          > > speced for the Victor Slocum?
          > >
          > > John Dolph
          > >
          > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "dmede808" <dmede808@y...>
          wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > I am considering building the Victor Slocum, a 15' modified
          Jersey
          > > > skiff. The plans call for
          > > > a small (6hp) air cooled gas inboard. I'm considering a small
          air
          > > > cooled diesel from HATZ
          > > > instead but the hookup should be about the same.
          > > >
          > > > Anybody have any good reasources on how to install a small
          inboard in
          > > > an open boat like
          > > > the Victor Slocum?
          > > >
          > > > Anybody know of someone who has built the Victor Slocum?
          > > >
          > > > Thanks,
          > > > David
        • dmede808
          No problem Mike. I appreciate the help. I do know about the thrust bearing issue. There is a load spec for the PTO bearing on the HATZ but I dont have any
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 6, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            No problem Mike. I appreciate the help. I do know about the thrust bearing issue. There
            is a load spec for the PTO bearing on the HATZ but I dont have any idea what the prop and
            shaft thrust load will be, or how to calculate it.

            HATZ has several gearbox options for those motors and I may use one for gear reduction
            and reverse gearing if possible. Hopefully that gearbox will be able to take the thrust load
            but if not I'll have to rig an inline thrust bearing. Mcmaster Carr has pillow-block bearings
            that may do the job.

            http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgPage.asp?
            ReqTyp=CATALOG&CtlgPgNbr=1026&CtlgEdition=&RelatedCtlgPgs=1026,1027,1028,102
            9,1030,1031,1032,957,967,969,972,973,1010&sesnextrep=432744623004951&ScreenW
            idth=1600&McMMainWidth=1003


            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdolph@s...> wrote:
            >
            > Those are really interesting engines. I'm sorry to keep adding
            > problems with no real ability t help but there is one more necessary
            > component for a marine engine. You need a thrust bearing. This is
            > the bearing that absorbs the push of the propeller that's
            > transimitted up the shaft and transfers it to the hull usually via
            > the engine body and engine mounts. The alternative is to have the
            > shaft trying to spear through the engine.
            >
            > The marine engines have this designed into the reduction gear and the
            > forces are taken into account if they will be transmitted via the
            > engine block. This might be why we have "reduction/reverser" gears
            > vs "transmissions" in other vehicles. It's a fundamentally different
            > useage of the power. The United Nations FAO has a design for
            > something like this they used in India and I suspect Robb White did
            > something similar in his Rescue Minor. As I recall it makes use of
            > an automotive constant velocity joint fixed to a plate that's fixed
            > to the hull to allow the shaft to be raised out of the water. The
            > thrust bearing may have been "homebuilt".
            >
            >
            > John Dolph
            >
            > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "dmede808" <dmede808@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Atkin specified a 10" prop with 6" pitch for the Victor Slocum.
            > >
            > > As you mentioned, RPMs are one of my big concerns. The small
            > diesel I found delivers
            > > 7.6hp at max 3600rpms and idles at 800rpms. Highest torque is
            > 13.5lbs.ft at 2000rpms.
            > > It delivers roughly 5hp at max torque 2000rpm. Probably higher RPM
            > range than the
            > > Palmer. The Palmer was rated at 6hp at 2500rpms.
            > >
            > > You can find PDF spec sheets of the motor I'm looking at here:
            > > http://www.hatz-diesel.de/englisch/produkt/1b20_e.htm
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <jdolph@s...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I don't know of any air cooled engines being made today that are
            > > > equivalent to motors like the Baby Husky Palmer. Those engines
            > had a
            > > > long stroke to cylinder diameter ratio that let them deliver more
            > > > torque at lower rpm's. You would need a reduction gear and
            > probably
            > > > need to buy a motor rated at a higher horsepower than Atkin
            > specified
            > > > and run it at near it's best torque instead of at it's highest
            > speed
            > > > in order to deliver the same power to Atkins specified
            > propeller. I
            > > > Have been looking at some Brazilian Yanmar diesels (water cooled)
            > at
            > > >
            > http://www.yanmar.com.br/site/ing2/produtos/nacional/bm/especificacoes
            > .
            > > > doc
            > > >
            > > > These will deliver the torque to turn your specified propeller
            > but I
            > > > imagine you will end up changing that propeller to one that fits
            > the
            > > > motor you finally settle on.
            > > >
            > > > Does anyone know all these facts for the Baby Husky and the prop
            > > > speced for the Victor Slocum?
            > > >
            > > > John Dolph
            > > >
            > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "dmede808" <dmede808@y...>
            > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > I am considering building the Victor Slocum, a 15' modified
            > Jersey
            > > > > skiff. The plans call for
            > > > > a small (6hp) air cooled gas inboard. I'm considering a small
            > air
            > > > > cooled diesel from HATZ
            > > > > instead but the hookup should be about the same.
            > > > >
            > > > > Anybody have any good reasources on how to install a small
            > inboard in
            > > > > an open boat like
            > > > > the Victor Slocum?
            > > > >
            > > > > Anybody know of someone who has built the Victor Slocum?
            > > > >
            > > > > Thanks,
            > > > > David
          • Lewis E. Gordon
            Intersting line of engines. I notice that the 1B40 model is available with a counter rotating balancing option which might be useful. Also, the axial load on
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 8, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Intersting line of engines. I notice that the 1B40 model is available
              with a counter rotating balancing option which might be useful. Also,
              the axial load on the PTO shaft was given as 1200 newtons. If I
              converted correctly, this is 269.7 pounds. I cannot imagine the prop
              and shaft loading coming close to this figure, but I don't know how to
              caculate the force either. And, who would want to drive the prop at
              1:1 with direct hookup?

              The weights are extremely low and the allowable tilt angle is
              generous. The agriculture units I have looked at here in Nicaragua are
              much heavier. What is the availability and cost of these engines
              stateside?

              Lewis
              Still searching for a suitable boat to build here for Lake Nicaragua!

              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "dmede808" <dmede808@y...> wrote:
              >
              > No problem Mike. I appreciate the help. I do know about the thrust
              bearing issue. There
              > is a load spec for the PTO bearing on the HATZ but I dont have any
              idea what the prop and
              > shaft thrust load will be, or how to calculate it.
              >
              > HATZ has several gearbox options for those motors and I may use one
              for gear reduction
              > and reverse gearing if possible. Hopefully that gearbox will be
              able to take the thrust load
              > but if not I'll have to rig an inline thrust bearing. Mcmaster Carr
              has pillow-block bearings
              > that may do the job.
            • dmede808
              Thanks for the shaft load conversion, thats good to know. I agree, 1:1 at those rpms is probably not ideal. They seem to be easy enough to get here in the
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 11, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Thanks for the shaft load conversion, thats good to know. I agree, 1:1 at those rpms is
                probably not ideal. They seem to be easy enough to get here in the US. Quite a few
                dealers including online (http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/
                ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=347&R=347)

                They range between $1500 - $1900 I think.

                The issue I am running into is getting info on suitable gearboxes. HATZ lists several
                gearboxes in thier "additional equipment" PDF online but the main US dealer doesn't seem
                to now anything about them. Without a bolt on option for neutral, reverse and gear
                reduction I may not be able to use these motors. I am also concerned that the higher
                RPMs with the single cylinder will cause more vibration than the Palmer Baby Husky spec'd
                for this boat.

                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Lewis E. Gordon" <l_gordon_nica@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Intersting line of engines. I notice that the 1B40 model is available
                > with a counter rotating balancing option which might be useful. Also,
                > the axial load on the PTO shaft was given as 1200 newtons. If I
                > converted correctly, this is 269.7 pounds. I cannot imagine the prop
                > and shaft loading coming close to this figure, but I don't know how to
                > caculate the force either. And, who would want to drive the prop at
                > 1:1 with direct hookup?
                >
                > The weights are extremely low and the allowable tilt angle is
                > generous. The agriculture units I have looked at here in Nicaragua are
                > much heavier. What is the availability and cost of these engines
                > stateside?
                >
                > Lewis
                > Still searching for a suitable boat to build here for Lake Nicaragua!
                >
                > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "dmede808" <dmede808@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > No problem Mike. I appreciate the help. I do know about the thrust
                > bearing issue. There
                > > is a load spec for the PTO bearing on the HATZ but I dont have any
                > idea what the prop and
                > > shaft thrust load will be, or how to calculate it.
                > >
                > > HATZ has several gearbox options for those motors and I may use one
                > for gear reduction
                > > and reverse gearing if possible. Hopefully that gearbox will be
                > able to take the thrust load
                > > but if not I'll have to rig an inline thrust bearing. Mcmaster Carr
                > has pillow-block bearings
                > > that may do the job.
              • Lewis E. Gordon
                Here is the link for ZF/Hurth marine transmission web site. Select transmissions/engine matching program/select brands for a list of supported manufactures. It
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 11, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Here is the link for ZF/Hurth marine transmission web site. Select
                  transmissions/engine matching program/select brands for a list of
                  supported manufactures. It is interesting that Hatz is not listed for
                  any model. The prices shown on Northern Tool seem a little high. For
                  that money you can get a Kubota like Mr. White has on his Rescue
                  Minor. That is one good engine and 800 hours already? Wow!

                  If you want to use a smaller industrial engine like the HATZ, you will
                  have to do some improvising with a belt drive like Mr. White did. I'm
                  sorry to hear that he no longer has a reverse gear. He's right that
                  it's not used much, but still for the peace of mind.... (Who am I to
                  talk? I'm missing a spring on my 30 HP Tohatsu and I don't have
                  reverse now either.)

                  Good luck!

                  Lewis


                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "dmede808" <dmede808@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks for the shaft load conversion, thats good to know. I agree,
                  1:1 at those rpms is
                  > probably not ideal. They seem to be easy enough to get here in the
                  US. Quite a few
                  > dealers including online
                  (http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/
                  > ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=347&R=347)
                  >
                  > They range between $1500 - $1900 I think.
                  >
                  > The issue I am running into is getting info on suitable gearboxes.
                  HATZ lists several
                  > gearboxes in thier "additional equipment" PDF online but the main US
                  dealer doesn't seem
                  > to now anything about them. Without a bolt on option for neutral,
                  reverse and gear
                  > reduction I may not be able to use these motors. I am also
                  concerned that the higher
                  > RPMs with the single cylinder will cause more vibration than the
                  Palmer Baby Husky spec'd
                  > for this boat.
                  >
                • Lewis E. Gordon
                  I m sorry! I forget the link: http://zf-marine.com/ZFR/index.cfm
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 11, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I'm sorry! I forget the link:

                    http://zf-marine.com/ZFR/index.cfm


                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Lewis E. Gordon"
                    <l_gordon_nica@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Here is the link for ZF/Hurth marine transmission web site. Select
                    > transmissions/engine matching program/select brands for a list of
                    > supported manufactures. It is interesting that Hatz is not listed for
                    > any model. The prices shown on Northern Tool seem a little high. For
                    > that money you can get a Kubota like Mr. White has on his Rescue
                    > Minor. That is one good engine and 800 hours already? Wow!
                    >
                    > If you want to use a smaller industrial engine like the HATZ, you will
                    > have to do some improvising with a belt drive like Mr. White did. I'm
                    > sorry to hear that he no longer has a reverse gear. He's right that
                    > it's not used much, but still for the peace of mind.... (Who am I to
                    > talk? I'm missing a spring on my 30 HP Tohatsu and I don't have
                    > reverse now either.)
                    >
                    > Good luck!
                    >
                    > Lewis
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "dmede808" <dmede808@y...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Thanks for the shaft load conversion, thats good to know. I agree,
                    > 1:1 at those rpms is
                    > > probably not ideal. They seem to be easy enough to get here in the
                    > US. Quite a few
                    > > dealers including online
                    > (http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/
                    > > ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=347&R=347)
                    > >
                    > > They range between $1500 - $1900 I think.
                    > >
                    > > The issue I am running into is getting info on suitable gearboxes.
                    > HATZ lists several
                    > > gearboxes in thier "additional equipment" PDF online but the main US
                    > dealer doesn't seem
                    > > to now anything about them. Without a bolt on option for neutral,
                    > reverse and gear
                    > > reduction I may not be able to use these motors. I am also
                    > concerned that the higher
                    > > RPMs with the single cylinder will cause more vibration than the
                    > Palmer Baby Husky spec'd
                    > > for this boat.
                    > >
                  • jkohnen@boat-links.com
                    The Atkins specified a two-bladed, Type E Columbian, 10 inches in diameter b 6 inches in pitch. The speed of the skiff should be a good 8 m.p.h. The Baby
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 12, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      The Atkins specified a "two-bladed, Type E Columbian, 10 inches in diameter
                      b 6 inches in pitch. The speed of the skiff should be a good 8 m.p.h." The
                      Baby Huskie (BH) had a bore of 3 1/16" and a stroke of 3 1/2" for a
                      displacement of 25 cu. in.

                      On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 23:20:08 -0000, Mike D wrote:
                      >
                      > ...
                      > Does anyone know all these facts for the Baby Husky and the prop
                      > speced for the Victor Slocum?

                      --
                      John <jkohnen@...>
                      http://www.boat-links.com/
                      Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow.
                      <Mark Twain>
                    • jkohnen@boat-links.com
                      You can easily gear down the Hatz with a belt or a chain between the engine or gearbox and the prop shaft. There s been some discussion about using
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 12, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        You can easily "gear down" the Hatz with a belt or a chain between the
                        engine or gearbox and the prop shaft.

                        There's been some discussion about using air-cooled engine in boats over on
                        the Western Oregon Messabout group, where a friend of mine suggested using
                        an outboard lower unit as a reverse gear for a vertical-shaft engine. Lying
                        awake the other night I had a revelation -- why does the crankshaft of a
                        horizontal shaft engine, like your Hatz, have to be parallel with the
                        centerline? If you lay an outboard lower unit on its side, with the output
                        shaft coupled to the prop shaft and the input shaft lying athwartships,
                        mount the engine near it with it's shaft parallel with the lower unit's
                        input shaft, then hook them together with appropriate belts, pulley, chains,
                        sprockets or whatever, wouldn't it be a good, cheap way to get a reverse
                        gear? Or did I just have too much pizza before going to bed... <g>

                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessaboutW/

                        On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 16:03:22 -0000, dmede808 wrote:
                        > ...
                        > As you mentioned, RPMs are one of my big concerns. The small diesel I
                        found delivers
                        > 7.6hp at max 3600rpms and idles at 800rpms. Highest torque is 13.5lbs.ft
                        at 2000rpms.
                        > It delivers roughly 5hp at max torque 2000rpm. Probably higher RPM range
                        than the
                        > Palmer. The Palmer was rated at 6hp at 2500rpms.
                        > ...

                        --
                        John <jkohnen@...>
                        http://www.boat-links.com/
                        Correlation does not imply causation; except, of course, to your cat.
                        <Craig O'Donnell>
                      • jkohnen@boat-links.com
                        Take a cue from Robb and mount the engine on rubber. I think I d make a subframe that holds both the engine and gearbox, so you won t have any problems with
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 12, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Take a cue from Robb and mount the engine on rubber. I think I'd make a
                          subframe that holds both the engine and gearbox, so you won't have any
                          problems with belt or chain tension -- and possible transmitted vibration,
                          then mount that subframe on rubber mounts. They sell expensive cushion
                          couplings for marine engines, but you can probably find something at your
                          local bearing store that will work fine between the gearbox and prop shaft
                          with a low-horsepower engine. The inboard end of the prop shaft would be
                          supported by a combination thrust/radial bearing, readily available at the
                          bearing house.

                          An air-cooled engine (especially a diesel!) is going to be noisier than the
                          Baby Huskie too. You might want to think about a soundproofed engine box
                          with air ducted to, and away, from the engine.

                          On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 18:47:40 -0000, dmede808 (what's your name anyway?)
                          wrote:
                          > ...
                          > I am also concerned that the higher
                          > RPMs with the single cylinder will cause more vibration than the Palmer
                          Baby Husky spec'd
                          > for this boat.

                          --
                          John <jkohnen@...>
                          http://www.boat-links.com/
                          "Necessity is the mother of invention" is a silly proverb.
                          "Necessity is the mother of futile dodges" is much nearer the truth.
                          <Alfred North Whitehead>
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.