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Re: [AtkinBoats] Re: Most Efficient Hull??

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  • Ronald Fossum
    Thank you, Manfred, for your kind response. I would certainly appreciate any information you might have. My internet connection is DSL so large (up to 5Meg)
    Message 1 of 30 , Jan 21, 2005
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      Thank you, Manfred, for your kind response. I would certainly appreciate any information you might have. My internet connection is DSL so large (up to 5Meg) file size is not an issue.

      My intention is to build a turnnel stern Sea Bright Skiff of about 21' 6" LOA, 6' beam and (hopefully) 6" - 7" draft. It will be powered by a high speed steam plant - total weight of under 350 lbs. - with engine rpm max at 2000rpm / 15+ shaft HP.

      I liked what Robb White did with his version of Rescue Minor, but I would retain the Atkin plywood construction for the area below the chines (making it of 1/2" marine plywood - 1" for the flat bottom/keel). I would develop the topsides as curved forms - much like the original Sea Bright Skiffs - and use glued plywood lapstrake planking - ala Ian Oughtred - probably of 3/8" marine plywood. If you're interested, I could scan some scaled sketches (once they're completed) and email them to you. I have a copy of "The Sea Bright Skiff and other shore boats" by Peter Guthorn as well as "Building Classic Small Craft & More Building Classic Small Craft" by John Gardner", so have researched the design fairly well. My local Public Library also has the Motor Boatings Ideal Series (complete) where the Atkins published all of their Sea Bright Designs (complete with offsets).

      I plan to build a 3/4" = 1' model (as Weston Farmer recommends) to further refine the design. I then hope to start actual hull construction sometime this summer and, as I am now retired, have the hull completed before the rains set in here in Portland, Oregon (usually in late October). I have some background, professionally, in wooden boatwright work, mostly in repair and restoration. I still have a LOT of clamps, etc. to make the work go easier.

      Any information/help you can provide would be appreciated.

      Ron Fossum, artemis@...

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: liokai2002
      To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:18 AM
      Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Most Efficient Hull??



      Hi Ron, think you will not find "Maderform Hulls" using Google. Dr.
      Mader is a shipwright and has a wharf called "Hycom" in Duisburg
      (Germany). Suppose there are many Hycoms in the Google world. When
      you send me your adress, I can post you some papers and pics, not
      professionally, just from one interested "hydrodymaniac" to another.
      Regards, Manfred


      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald Fossum" <artemis@p...>
      wrote:
      > Thank you for your response, Manfred.
      >
      > I have heard of, and seen reference to, "Maderform" hulls - but did
      not understand the concept. Now I think it would be useful to know
      more. I used the Google search engine and looked for "Maderform
      hulls" (no results, do I want maidenform bras?) and Paul Mader (lots
      of stuff about a Paul Mader who is heavily involved in agriculture in
      3rd world areas).
      >
      > Do you know of any websites that discuss/have information on
      Maderform hulls?
      >
      > Many thanks.
      >
      > Ron Fossum
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: liokai2002
      > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:25 PM
      > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Most Efficient Hull??
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello Ron,
      > indeed, I would like to do this. But this is not possible for me.
      > First, the costs to run a water tank test series are very high
      and
      > I`m retired now with no personal access.
      > Second, there have been tests with similiar hulls since more than
      20
      > years by Dr. Paul Mader ( "Maderform" hulls ). And these hulls
      have
      > been developed year by year and are patented now (think, I´m up
      to
      > date). They deliver hydrodynamic lift in the after third part of
      the
      > hull, a very smooth water behind and nearly no whorls (
      vortices )
      > leave the hull. I have a DVD of the last tests in Berlin which
      shows
      > a very smooth waterflow of the hull and a very stable course.
      >
      > Meanwhile there are some ships with these Maderform hulls on the
      > BODENSEE and other waterways in Germany, which have proven their
      > superiority over coventional designs. But as with all new
      > developments there are a lot of established people who deny the
      > merits of Maderform hulls although all tests and
      computersimulations
      > (Navier-Stokes) have shown their superiority.
      >
      > Having the Maderform hulls in mind and looking at the study plans
      of
      > SAND PIPER one can find "some" similiar aspects. One might be the
      > negative deadrise at the stern. But there is more and this has to
      be
      > tested. I´ll try to get the plans of SAND PIPER ( with the help
      of
      > DUCKWORKS as they accept my Master Card ), build a down sized
      version
      > and test it here on the Baltic. In my cellar I try to twist
      sheets of
      > aircraft birch ply for a small model to gain an underwater shape
      like
      > SAND PIPER, to gain the same clever waterflow. But I`m not shure
      to
      > succeed. Regards, Manfred
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery. Please
      be polite.
      >
      > If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the
      plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and
      Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the
      resulting boat.
      >
      > The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
      > <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --------------------------------------------------------------------
      ----------
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/
      >
      > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > AtkinBoats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      Service.
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery. Please be polite.

      If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the resulting boat.

      The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
      <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>





      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Yahoo! Groups Links

      a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/

      b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      AtkinBoats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

      c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lewis E. Gordon
      Manfred, I certainly value and respect your openion on Sand Piper. It seems however that the tunnel shape of Sand Piper is not as sophisticated as some of the
      Message 2 of 30 , Jan 23, 2005
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        Manfred,

        I certainly value and respect your openion on Sand Piper. It seems
        however that the tunnel shape of Sand Piper is not as sophisticated as
        some of the other Atkins designs, (All straight sections and no
        closing of the tunnel aperture at the stern.) It is exactly because of
        these straight sections that I would not be TOO hesitant in shortening
        the middle sections spacing from 24 to 21 inches (leaving the ends
        alone) and get the hull length down to just over 26 feet.

        I would certainly be interested in learning the results of your model
        testing. One attraction of the tunnel stern for me (I don't need the
        extreme shallow draft) is the option of putting an access plate in a
        waterproof well over the propeller to quickly clear the propeller and
        shaft of seaweed (lake weed?) from above. There is a lot of floating
        vegetation at various times in our lake and when the going gets rough
        and I have to slow down, my outboard will sometimes pick up weeds and
        cavitate. I have no experience with weedless propellers and possibly
        could not stand the loss of efficiency.

        Lewis




        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "liokai2002" <manfred.pech@w...> wrote:
        >
        > Lewis, I don`t think that it is wise to alter a well tested design.
        > You will not only have to change the distance between the bulkheads
        > bei 14 % but all other parameters ( some with x³) and lines or you
        > will ruin the calculated waterflow of Sandpiper. When you compare
        > Sand Piper with Huckleberry Finn ( 50 ft ), which has a similiar
        > shape, you will find out that there is not only an enlargement by a
        > certain amount of percentage. The whole shape is different. I´m not a
        > designer, but to me it seems difficult to alter the lengh of a design
        > with an underwater shape like the Piper.
        >
        > But the shape of Sand Piper is so interesting for me that I would
        > choose another option. I would try to design my own boat. Compared to
        > the other Tunnel Designs Sand Piper does not seem to be very tricky.
        > After calculating the length and beam I would make a model and shape
        > the underwater part with two small sheets of birch craft ply by
        > twisting / torturing after fixing them at the point where they are
        > even before they have to be twisted in the other direction. This
        > seems to wor - I`ve tried it, but not yet finished. The problem ist
        > the last 1/3 . When the model is ready, I`ll try it in the water
        > with a balance and another model (I have already some tested "normal
        > hulls"). The model should take some weight and when towed, it should
        > run as even as possible at all speeds( like Rescue Minor ) and it
        > should be able to run with minimum wake ( whorls, vortices, eddies).
        > This might be a long way but it is a real challenge and it offers the
        > possibility to understand the extraordinary designs of William Atkin
        > a little bit better. Regards, Manfred
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Lewis E. Gordon"
        > <l_gordon_nica@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Jim,
        > >
        > > I have drooled over the plans for Martha Green for years, but the 2'
        > > 11" draft is just a bit more than practical for the local waters and
        > > the cruising I plan on doing. Thanks for posting the drawings.
        > >
        > > Another post mentions the many virtues of "Sand Piper". This should
        > be
        > > an efficient hull but the length and power requirements are both in
        > > excess of my requirements. I do love the slender scows/garveys type
        > > hulls. Hmmmmm!! From another thread, a 14% length reduction would
        > put
        > > "Sand Piper" down to 26 feet.
        > >
        > > Lewis
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "j_freach" <j_freach@y...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I just posted drawings of Martha Green in the files section under
        > > > motroboat drawings. Martha Green is a wonderful little Motor
        > Sailor
        > > > only 24'long by 8'4" But she has full standing headroom (5'11")for
        > > > most people this is enough.
        > > >
        > > > I did'nt realize she was a motorsailor untill I recieved the
        > Plans.
        > > > The Atkins boat site is really great but info on most of the
        > boats is
        > > > a little sparse which leads to wonderful discoveries like the fact
        > > > that Martha Green is a Motorsailor.
        > > >
        > > > The plans call for a Atomic Four engine which puts out about 10
        > hp.
        > > > and I've found a place where you can get a rebuilt one for under
        > $5000
        > > > So this boat can be built to Atkins specs and would perform as the
        > > > designer created her to.
        > > >
        > > > http://www3.telus.net/Atomic_4_Eng_Service/Price_Lists.html
        > > >
        > > > The link above is the site from which you can get the Atomic Four
        > as
        > > > well as many other fully rebuilt old motors.
        > > >
        > > > Jim F
      • liokai2002
        Hello Ron, tried five times to send you photos and papers of MADERFORM hulls (similiar to SAND PIPER)to your private adress artemis@p.... but all were
        Message 3 of 30 , Jan 24, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Ron, tried five times to send you photos and papers of
          MADERFORM hulls (similiar to SAND PIPER)to your private
          adress "artemis@p...." but all were rejected by Mail Delivery
          Subsystem Mailer Daemon .... :" The following adress had permanent
          fatal errors..". Whats my failure ? Regards, Manfred



          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald Fossum" <artemis@p...>
          wrote:
          > Thank you, Manfred, for your kind response. I would certainly
          appreciate any information you might have. My internet connection is
          DSL so large (up to 5Meg) file size is not an issue.
          >
          > My intention is to build a turnnel stern Sea Bright Skiff of about
          21' 6" LOA, 6' beam and (hopefully) 6" - 7" draft. It will be powered
          by a high speed steam plant - total weight of under 350 lbs. - with
          engine rpm max at 2000rpm / 15+ shaft HP.
          >
          > I liked what Robb White did with his version of Rescue Minor, but I
          would retain the Atkin plywood construction for the area below the
          chines (making it of 1/2" marine plywood - 1" for the flat
          bottom/keel). I would develop the topsides as curved forms - much
          like the original Sea Bright Skiffs - and use glued plywood lapstrake
          planking - ala Ian Oughtred - probably of 3/8" marine plywood. If
          you're interested, I could scan some scaled sketches (once they're
          completed) and email them to you. I have a copy of "The Sea Bright
          Skiff and other shore boats" by Peter Guthorn as well as "Building
          Classic Small Craft & More Building Classic Small Craft" by John
          Gardner", so have researched the design fairly well. My local Public
          Library also has the Motor Boatings Ideal Series (complete) where the
          Atkins published all of their Sea Bright Designs (complete with
          offsets).
          >
          > I plan to build a 3/4" = 1' model (as Weston Farmer recommends) to
          further refine the design. I then hope to start actual hull
          construction sometime this summer and, as I am now retired, have the
          hull completed before the rains set in here in Portland, Oregon
          (usually in late October). I have some background, professionally, in
          wooden boatwright work, mostly in repair and restoration. I still
          have a LOT of clamps, etc. to make the work go easier.
          >
          > Any information/help you can provide would be appreciated.
          >
          > Ron Fossum, artemis@p...
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: liokai2002
          > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:18 AM
          > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Most Efficient Hull??
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi Ron, think you will not find "Maderform Hulls" using Google.
          Dr.
          > Mader is a shipwright and has a wharf called "Hycom" in Duisburg
          > (Germany). Suppose there are many Hycoms in the Google world.
          When
          > you send me your adress, I can post you some papers and pics, not
          > professionally, just from one interested "hydrodymaniac" to
          another.
          > Regards, Manfred
          >
          >
          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald Fossum" <artemis@p...>
          > wrote:
          > > Thank you for your response, Manfred.
          > >
          > > I have heard of, and seen reference to, "Maderform" hulls - but
          did
          > not understand the concept. Now I think it would be useful to
          know
          > more. I used the Google search engine and looked for "Maderform
          > hulls" (no results, do I want maidenform bras?) and Paul Mader
          (lots
          > of stuff about a Paul Mader who is heavily involved in
          agriculture in
          > 3rd world areas).
          > >
          > > Do you know of any websites that discuss/have information on
          > Maderform hulls?
          > >
          > > Many thanks.
          > >
          > > Ron Fossum
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: liokai2002
          > > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:25 PM
          > > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Most Efficient Hull??
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hello Ron,
          > > indeed, I would like to do this. But this is not possible for
          me.
          > > First, the costs to run a water tank test series are very
          high
          > and
          > > I`m retired now with no personal access.
          > > Second, there have been tests with similiar hulls since more
          than
          > 20
          > > years by Dr. Paul Mader ( "Maderform" hulls ). And these
          hulls
          > have
          > > been developed year by year and are patented now (think, I´m
          up
          > to
          > > date). They deliver hydrodynamic lift in the after third part
          of
          > the
          > > hull, a very smooth water behind and nearly no whorls (
          > vortices )
          > > leave the hull. I have a DVD of the last tests in Berlin
          which
          > shows
          > > a very smooth waterflow of the hull and a very stable course.
          > >
          > > Meanwhile there are some ships with these Maderform hulls on
          the
          > > BODENSEE and other waterways in Germany, which have proven
          their
          > > superiority over coventional designs. But as with all new
          > > developments there are a lot of established people who deny
          the
          > > merits of Maderform hulls although all tests and
          > computersimulations
          > > (Navier-Stokes) have shown their superiority.
          > >
          > > Having the Maderform hulls in mind and looking at the study
          plans
          > of
          > > SAND PIPER one can find "some" similiar aspects. One might be
          the
          > > negative deadrise at the stern. But there is more and this
          has to
          > be
          > > tested. I´ll try to get the plans of SAND PIPER ( with the
          help
          > of
          > > DUCKWORKS as they accept my Master Card ), build a down sized
          > version
          > > and test it here on the Baltic. In my cellar I try to twist
          > sheets of
          > > aircraft birch ply for a small model to gain an underwater
          shape
          > like
          > > SAND PIPER, to gain the same clever waterflow. But I`m not
          shure
          > to
          > > succeed. Regards, Manfred
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery.
          Please
          > be polite.
          > >
          > > If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify
          the
          > plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and
          > Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of
          the
          > resulting boat.
          > >
          > > The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
          > > <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
          ----
          > ----------
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/
          > >
          > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > AtkinBoats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          Terms of
          > Service.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery. Please
          be polite.
          >
          > If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the
          plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and
          Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the
          resulting boat.
          >
          > The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
          > <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --------------------------------------------------------------------
          ----------
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/
          >
          > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > AtkinBoats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          Service.
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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