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Re: [AtkinBoats] Re: Easily driven boats (and study plans ordered)

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  • David Lightfoot
    Interesting pic. Those are pretty scant sails for a boat of that displacement but I noticed that Atkin drew in vangs p&s for the gaff peak. On a smaller boat
    Message 1 of 30 , Jan 18, 2005
      Interesting pic. Those are pretty scant sails for a boat of that
      displacement but I noticed that Atkin drew in vangs p&s for the gaff
      peak. On a smaller boat that would be scary but I'm sure they will cause
      no big fear factor in a boat with the stability of Martha Green and would
      surely help he point up as well as a marconi rig. Those Atkin guys were
      geniouses as well as practical. No designers that I know of now are
      designating vangs... insurance reasons? I sail a sixteen foot dingy
      (sometimes) with a gaff rig and use them. Best sailing rig I know of, but
      just a bit harry in a gust <g>. And I want to say that a gaff rig with
      zero twist is a whole different animal!

      David Lightfoot

      At 08:21 AM 1/18/2005, you wrote:

      >I just posted drawings of Martha Green in the files section under
      >motroboat drawings. Martha Green is a wonderful little Motor Sailor
      >only 24'long by 8'4" But she has full standing headroom (5'11")for
      >most people this is enough.


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    • liokai2002
      Hi Ron, think you will not find Maderform Hulls using Google. Dr. Mader is a shipwright and has a wharf called Hycom in Duisburg (Germany). Suppose there
      Message 2 of 30 , Jan 19, 2005
        Hi Ron, think you will not find "Maderform Hulls" using Google. Dr.
        Mader is a shipwright and has a wharf called "Hycom" in Duisburg
        (Germany). Suppose there are many Hycoms in the Google world. When
        you send me your adress, I can post you some papers and pics, not
        professionally, just from one interested "hydrodymaniac" to another.
        Regards, Manfred


        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald Fossum" <artemis@p...>
        wrote:
        > Thank you for your response, Manfred.
        >
        > I have heard of, and seen reference to, "Maderform" hulls - but did
        not understand the concept. Now I think it would be useful to know
        more. I used the Google search engine and looked for "Maderform
        hulls" (no results, do I want maidenform bras?) and Paul Mader (lots
        of stuff about a Paul Mader who is heavily involved in agriculture in
        3rd world areas).
        >
        > Do you know of any websites that discuss/have information on
        Maderform hulls?
        >
        > Many thanks.
        >
        > Ron Fossum
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: liokai2002
        > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:25 PM
        > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Most Efficient Hull??
        >
        >
        >
        > Hello Ron,
        > indeed, I would like to do this. But this is not possible for me.
        > First, the costs to run a water tank test series are very high
        and
        > I`m retired now with no personal access.
        > Second, there have been tests with similiar hulls since more than
        20
        > years by Dr. Paul Mader ( "Maderform" hulls ). And these hulls
        have
        > been developed year by year and are patented now (think, I´m up
        to
        > date). They deliver hydrodynamic lift in the after third part of
        the
        > hull, a very smooth water behind and nearly no whorls (
        vortices )
        > leave the hull. I have a DVD of the last tests in Berlin which
        shows
        > a very smooth waterflow of the hull and a very stable course.
        >
        > Meanwhile there are some ships with these Maderform hulls on the
        > BODENSEE and other waterways in Germany, which have proven their
        > superiority over coventional designs. But as with all new
        > developments there are a lot of established people who deny the
        > merits of Maderform hulls although all tests and
        computersimulations
        > (Navier-Stokes) have shown their superiority.
        >
        > Having the Maderform hulls in mind and looking at the study plans
        of
        > SAND PIPER one can find "some" similiar aspects. One might be the
        > negative deadrise at the stern. But there is more and this has to
        be
        > tested. I´ll try to get the plans of SAND PIPER ( with the help
        of
        > DUCKWORKS as they accept my Master Card ), build a down sized
        version
        > and test it here on the Baltic. In my cellar I try to twist
        sheets of
        > aircraft birch ply for a small model to gain an underwater shape
        like
        > SAND PIPER, to gain the same clever waterflow. But I`m not shure
        to
        > succeed. Regards, Manfred
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery. Please
        be polite.
        >
        > If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the
        plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and
        Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the
        resulting boat.
        >
        > The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
        > <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --------------------------------------------------------------------
        ----------
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/
        >
        > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > AtkinBoats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lewis E. Gordon
        Jim, I have drooled over the plans for Martha Green for years, but the 2 11 draft is just a bit more than practical for the local waters and the cruising I
        Message 3 of 30 , Jan 19, 2005
          Jim,

          I have drooled over the plans for Martha Green for years, but the 2'
          11" draft is just a bit more than practical for the local waters and
          the cruising I plan on doing. Thanks for posting the drawings.

          Another post mentions the many virtues of "Sand Piper". This should be
          an efficient hull but the length and power requirements are both in
          excess of my requirements. I do love the slender scows/garveys type
          hulls. Hmmmmm!! From another thread, a 14% length reduction would put
          "Sand Piper" down to 26 feet.

          Lewis


          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "j_freach" <j_freach@y...> wrote:
          >
          > I just posted drawings of Martha Green in the files section under
          > motroboat drawings. Martha Green is a wonderful little Motor Sailor
          > only 24'long by 8'4" But she has full standing headroom (5'11")for
          > most people this is enough.
          >
          > I did'nt realize she was a motorsailor untill I recieved the Plans.
          > The Atkins boat site is really great but info on most of the boats is
          > a little sparse which leads to wonderful discoveries like the fact
          > that Martha Green is a Motorsailor.
          >
          > The plans call for a Atomic Four engine which puts out about 10 hp.
          > and I've found a place where you can get a rebuilt one for under $5000
          > So this boat can be built to Atkins specs and would perform as the
          > designer created her to.
          >
          > http://www3.telus.net/Atomic_4_Eng_Service/Price_Lists.html
          >
          > The link above is the site from which you can get the Atomic Four as
          > well as many other fully rebuilt old motors.
          >
          > Jim F
        • liokai2002
          Lewis, I don`t think that it is wise to alter a well tested design. You will not only have to change the distance between the bulkheads bei 14 % but all other
          Message 4 of 30 , Jan 20, 2005
            Lewis, I don`t think that it is wise to alter a well tested design.
            You will not only have to change the distance between the bulkheads
            bei 14 % but all other parameters ( some with x³) and lines or you
            will ruin the calculated waterflow of Sandpiper. When you compare
            Sand Piper with Huckleberry Finn ( 50 ft ), which has a similiar
            shape, you will find out that there is not only an enlargement by a
            certain amount of percentage. The whole shape is different. I´m not a
            designer, but to me it seems difficult to alter the lengh of a design
            with an underwater shape like the Piper.

            But the shape of Sand Piper is so interesting for me that I would
            choose another option. I would try to design my own boat. Compared to
            the other Tunnel Designs Sand Piper does not seem to be very tricky.
            After calculating the length and beam I would make a model and shape
            the underwater part with two small sheets of birch craft ply by
            twisting / torturing after fixing them at the point where they are
            even before they have to be twisted in the other direction. This
            seems to work - I`ve tried it, but not yet finished. The problem ist
            the last 1/3 . When the model is ready, I`ll try it in the water
            with a balance and another model (I have already some tested "normal
            hulls"). The model should take some weight and when towed, it should
            run as even as possible at all speeds( like Rescue Minor ) and it
            should be able to run with minimum wake ( whorls, vortices, eddies).
            This might be a long way but it is a real challenge and it offers the
            possibility to understand the extraordinary designs of William Atkin
            a little bit better. Regards, Manfred




            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Lewis E. Gordon"
            <l_gordon_nica@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Jim,
            >
            > I have drooled over the plans for Martha Green for years, but the 2'
            > 11" draft is just a bit more than practical for the local waters and
            > the cruising I plan on doing. Thanks for posting the drawings.
            >
            > Another post mentions the many virtues of "Sand Piper". This should
            be
            > an efficient hull but the length and power requirements are both in
            > excess of my requirements. I do love the slender scows/garveys type
            > hulls. Hmmmmm!! From another thread, a 14% length reduction would
            put
            > "Sand Piper" down to 26 feet.
            >
            > Lewis
            >
            >
            > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "j_freach" <j_freach@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I just posted drawings of Martha Green in the files section under
            > > motroboat drawings. Martha Green is a wonderful little Motor
            Sailor
            > > only 24'long by 8'4" But she has full standing headroom (5'11")for
            > > most people this is enough.
            > >
            > > I did'nt realize she was a motorsailor untill I recieved the
            Plans.
            > > The Atkins boat site is really great but info on most of the
            boats is
            > > a little sparse which leads to wonderful discoveries like the fact
            > > that Martha Green is a Motorsailor.
            > >
            > > The plans call for a Atomic Four engine which puts out about 10
            hp.
            > > and I've found a place where you can get a rebuilt one for under
            $5000
            > > So this boat can be built to Atkins specs and would perform as the
            > > designer created her to.
            > >
            > > http://www3.telus.net/Atomic_4_Eng_Service/Price_Lists.html
            > >
            > > The link above is the site from which you can get the Atomic Four
            as
            > > well as many other fully rebuilt old motors.
            > >
            > > Jim F
          • Ronald Fossum
            Thank you, Manfred, for your kind response. I would certainly appreciate any information you might have. My internet connection is DSL so large (up to 5Meg)
            Message 5 of 30 , Jan 21, 2005
              Thank you, Manfred, for your kind response. I would certainly appreciate any information you might have. My internet connection is DSL so large (up to 5Meg) file size is not an issue.

              My intention is to build a turnnel stern Sea Bright Skiff of about 21' 6" LOA, 6' beam and (hopefully) 6" - 7" draft. It will be powered by a high speed steam plant - total weight of under 350 lbs. - with engine rpm max at 2000rpm / 15+ shaft HP.

              I liked what Robb White did with his version of Rescue Minor, but I would retain the Atkin plywood construction for the area below the chines (making it of 1/2" marine plywood - 1" for the flat bottom/keel). I would develop the topsides as curved forms - much like the original Sea Bright Skiffs - and use glued plywood lapstrake planking - ala Ian Oughtred - probably of 3/8" marine plywood. If you're interested, I could scan some scaled sketches (once they're completed) and email them to you. I have a copy of "The Sea Bright Skiff and other shore boats" by Peter Guthorn as well as "Building Classic Small Craft & More Building Classic Small Craft" by John Gardner", so have researched the design fairly well. My local Public Library also has the Motor Boatings Ideal Series (complete) where the Atkins published all of their Sea Bright Designs (complete with offsets).

              I plan to build a 3/4" = 1' model (as Weston Farmer recommends) to further refine the design. I then hope to start actual hull construction sometime this summer and, as I am now retired, have the hull completed before the rains set in here in Portland, Oregon (usually in late October). I have some background, professionally, in wooden boatwright work, mostly in repair and restoration. I still have a LOT of clamps, etc. to make the work go easier.

              Any information/help you can provide would be appreciated.

              Ron Fossum, artemis@...

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: liokai2002
              To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:18 AM
              Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Most Efficient Hull??



              Hi Ron, think you will not find "Maderform Hulls" using Google. Dr.
              Mader is a shipwright and has a wharf called "Hycom" in Duisburg
              (Germany). Suppose there are many Hycoms in the Google world. When
              you send me your adress, I can post you some papers and pics, not
              professionally, just from one interested "hydrodymaniac" to another.
              Regards, Manfred


              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald Fossum" <artemis@p...>
              wrote:
              > Thank you for your response, Manfred.
              >
              > I have heard of, and seen reference to, "Maderform" hulls - but did
              not understand the concept. Now I think it would be useful to know
              more. I used the Google search engine and looked for "Maderform
              hulls" (no results, do I want maidenform bras?) and Paul Mader (lots
              of stuff about a Paul Mader who is heavily involved in agriculture in
              3rd world areas).
              >
              > Do you know of any websites that discuss/have information on
              Maderform hulls?
              >
              > Many thanks.
              >
              > Ron Fossum
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: liokai2002
              > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:25 PM
              > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Most Efficient Hull??
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello Ron,
              > indeed, I would like to do this. But this is not possible for me.
              > First, the costs to run a water tank test series are very high
              and
              > I`m retired now with no personal access.
              > Second, there have been tests with similiar hulls since more than
              20
              > years by Dr. Paul Mader ( "Maderform" hulls ). And these hulls
              have
              > been developed year by year and are patented now (think, I´m up
              to
              > date). They deliver hydrodynamic lift in the after third part of
              the
              > hull, a very smooth water behind and nearly no whorls (
              vortices )
              > leave the hull. I have a DVD of the last tests in Berlin which
              shows
              > a very smooth waterflow of the hull and a very stable course.
              >
              > Meanwhile there are some ships with these Maderform hulls on the
              > BODENSEE and other waterways in Germany, which have proven their
              > superiority over coventional designs. But as with all new
              > developments there are a lot of established people who deny the
              > merits of Maderform hulls although all tests and
              computersimulations
              > (Navier-Stokes) have shown their superiority.
              >
              > Having the Maderform hulls in mind and looking at the study plans
              of
              > SAND PIPER one can find "some" similiar aspects. One might be the
              > negative deadrise at the stern. But there is more and this has to
              be
              > tested. I´ll try to get the plans of SAND PIPER ( with the help
              of
              > DUCKWORKS as they accept my Master Card ), build a down sized
              version
              > and test it here on the Baltic. In my cellar I try to twist
              sheets of
              > aircraft birch ply for a small model to gain an underwater shape
              like
              > SAND PIPER, to gain the same clever waterflow. But I`m not shure
              to
              > succeed. Regards, Manfred
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery. Please
              be polite.
              >
              > If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the
              plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and
              Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the
              resulting boat.
              >
              > The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
              > <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------------------------
              ----------
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/
              >
              > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > AtkinBoats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery. Please be polite.

              If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the resulting boat.

              The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
              <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>





              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Yahoo! Groups Links

              a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/

              b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              AtkinBoats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lewis E. Gordon
              Manfred, I certainly value and respect your openion on Sand Piper. It seems however that the tunnel shape of Sand Piper is not as sophisticated as some of the
              Message 6 of 30 , Jan 23, 2005
                Manfred,

                I certainly value and respect your openion on Sand Piper. It seems
                however that the tunnel shape of Sand Piper is not as sophisticated as
                some of the other Atkins designs, (All straight sections and no
                closing of the tunnel aperture at the stern.) It is exactly because of
                these straight sections that I would not be TOO hesitant in shortening
                the middle sections spacing from 24 to 21 inches (leaving the ends
                alone) and get the hull length down to just over 26 feet.

                I would certainly be interested in learning the results of your model
                testing. One attraction of the tunnel stern for me (I don't need the
                extreme shallow draft) is the option of putting an access plate in a
                waterproof well over the propeller to quickly clear the propeller and
                shaft of seaweed (lake weed?) from above. There is a lot of floating
                vegetation at various times in our lake and when the going gets rough
                and I have to slow down, my outboard will sometimes pick up weeds and
                cavitate. I have no experience with weedless propellers and possibly
                could not stand the loss of efficiency.

                Lewis




                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "liokai2002" <manfred.pech@w...> wrote:
                >
                > Lewis, I don`t think that it is wise to alter a well tested design.
                > You will not only have to change the distance between the bulkheads
                > bei 14 % but all other parameters ( some with x³) and lines or you
                > will ruin the calculated waterflow of Sandpiper. When you compare
                > Sand Piper with Huckleberry Finn ( 50 ft ), which has a similiar
                > shape, you will find out that there is not only an enlargement by a
                > certain amount of percentage. The whole shape is different. I´m not a
                > designer, but to me it seems difficult to alter the lengh of a design
                > with an underwater shape like the Piper.
                >
                > But the shape of Sand Piper is so interesting for me that I would
                > choose another option. I would try to design my own boat. Compared to
                > the other Tunnel Designs Sand Piper does not seem to be very tricky.
                > After calculating the length and beam I would make a model and shape
                > the underwater part with two small sheets of birch craft ply by
                > twisting / torturing after fixing them at the point where they are
                > even before they have to be twisted in the other direction. This
                > seems to wor - I`ve tried it, but not yet finished. The problem ist
                > the last 1/3 . When the model is ready, I`ll try it in the water
                > with a balance and another model (I have already some tested "normal
                > hulls"). The model should take some weight and when towed, it should
                > run as even as possible at all speeds( like Rescue Minor ) and it
                > should be able to run with minimum wake ( whorls, vortices, eddies).
                > This might be a long way but it is a real challenge and it offers the
                > possibility to understand the extraordinary designs of William Atkin
                > a little bit better. Regards, Manfred
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Lewis E. Gordon"
                > <l_gordon_nica@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Jim,
                > >
                > > I have drooled over the plans for Martha Green for years, but the 2'
                > > 11" draft is just a bit more than practical for the local waters and
                > > the cruising I plan on doing. Thanks for posting the drawings.
                > >
                > > Another post mentions the many virtues of "Sand Piper". This should
                > be
                > > an efficient hull but the length and power requirements are both in
                > > excess of my requirements. I do love the slender scows/garveys type
                > > hulls. Hmmmmm!! From another thread, a 14% length reduction would
                > put
                > > "Sand Piper" down to 26 feet.
                > >
                > > Lewis
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "j_freach" <j_freach@y...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I just posted drawings of Martha Green in the files section under
                > > > motroboat drawings. Martha Green is a wonderful little Motor
                > Sailor
                > > > only 24'long by 8'4" But she has full standing headroom (5'11")for
                > > > most people this is enough.
                > > >
                > > > I did'nt realize she was a motorsailor untill I recieved the
                > Plans.
                > > > The Atkins boat site is really great but info on most of the
                > boats is
                > > > a little sparse which leads to wonderful discoveries like the fact
                > > > that Martha Green is a Motorsailor.
                > > >
                > > > The plans call for a Atomic Four engine which puts out about 10
                > hp.
                > > > and I've found a place where you can get a rebuilt one for under
                > $5000
                > > > So this boat can be built to Atkins specs and would perform as the
                > > > designer created her to.
                > > >
                > > > http://www3.telus.net/Atomic_4_Eng_Service/Price_Lists.html
                > > >
                > > > The link above is the site from which you can get the Atomic Four
                > as
                > > > well as many other fully rebuilt old motors.
                > > >
                > > > Jim F
              • liokai2002
                Hello Ron, tried five times to send you photos and papers of MADERFORM hulls (similiar to SAND PIPER)to your private adress artemis@p.... but all were
                Message 7 of 30 , Jan 24, 2005
                  Hello Ron, tried five times to send you photos and papers of
                  MADERFORM hulls (similiar to SAND PIPER)to your private
                  adress "artemis@p...." but all were rejected by Mail Delivery
                  Subsystem Mailer Daemon .... :" The following adress had permanent
                  fatal errors..". Whats my failure ? Regards, Manfred



                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald Fossum" <artemis@p...>
                  wrote:
                  > Thank you, Manfred, for your kind response. I would certainly
                  appreciate any information you might have. My internet connection is
                  DSL so large (up to 5Meg) file size is not an issue.
                  >
                  > My intention is to build a turnnel stern Sea Bright Skiff of about
                  21' 6" LOA, 6' beam and (hopefully) 6" - 7" draft. It will be powered
                  by a high speed steam plant - total weight of under 350 lbs. - with
                  engine rpm max at 2000rpm / 15+ shaft HP.
                  >
                  > I liked what Robb White did with his version of Rescue Minor, but I
                  would retain the Atkin plywood construction for the area below the
                  chines (making it of 1/2" marine plywood - 1" for the flat
                  bottom/keel). I would develop the topsides as curved forms - much
                  like the original Sea Bright Skiffs - and use glued plywood lapstrake
                  planking - ala Ian Oughtred - probably of 3/8" marine plywood. If
                  you're interested, I could scan some scaled sketches (once they're
                  completed) and email them to you. I have a copy of "The Sea Bright
                  Skiff and other shore boats" by Peter Guthorn as well as "Building
                  Classic Small Craft & More Building Classic Small Craft" by John
                  Gardner", so have researched the design fairly well. My local Public
                  Library also has the Motor Boatings Ideal Series (complete) where the
                  Atkins published all of their Sea Bright Designs (complete with
                  offsets).
                  >
                  > I plan to build a 3/4" = 1' model (as Weston Farmer recommends) to
                  further refine the design. I then hope to start actual hull
                  construction sometime this summer and, as I am now retired, have the
                  hull completed before the rains set in here in Portland, Oregon
                  (usually in late October). I have some background, professionally, in
                  wooden boatwright work, mostly in repair and restoration. I still
                  have a LOT of clamps, etc. to make the work go easier.
                  >
                  > Any information/help you can provide would be appreciated.
                  >
                  > Ron Fossum, artemis@p...
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: liokai2002
                  > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 2:18 AM
                  > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Most Efficient Hull??
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Ron, think you will not find "Maderform Hulls" using Google.
                  Dr.
                  > Mader is a shipwright and has a wharf called "Hycom" in Duisburg
                  > (Germany). Suppose there are many Hycoms in the Google world.
                  When
                  > you send me your adress, I can post you some papers and pics, not
                  > professionally, just from one interested "hydrodymaniac" to
                  another.
                  > Regards, Manfred
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald Fossum" <artemis@p...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Thank you for your response, Manfred.
                  > >
                  > > I have heard of, and seen reference to, "Maderform" hulls - but
                  did
                  > not understand the concept. Now I think it would be useful to
                  know
                  > more. I used the Google search engine and looked for "Maderform
                  > hulls" (no results, do I want maidenform bras?) and Paul Mader
                  (lots
                  > of stuff about a Paul Mader who is heavily involved in
                  agriculture in
                  > 3rd world areas).
                  > >
                  > > Do you know of any websites that discuss/have information on
                  > Maderform hulls?
                  > >
                  > > Many thanks.
                  > >
                  > > Ron Fossum
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: liokai2002
                  > > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:25 PM
                  > > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Most Efficient Hull??
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hello Ron,
                  > > indeed, I would like to do this. But this is not possible for
                  me.
                  > > First, the costs to run a water tank test series are very
                  high
                  > and
                  > > I`m retired now with no personal access.
                  > > Second, there have been tests with similiar hulls since more
                  than
                  > 20
                  > > years by Dr. Paul Mader ( "Maderform" hulls ). And these
                  hulls
                  > have
                  > > been developed year by year and are patented now (think, I´m
                  up
                  > to
                  > > date). They deliver hydrodynamic lift in the after third part
                  of
                  > the
                  > > hull, a very smooth water behind and nearly no whorls (
                  > vortices )
                  > > leave the hull. I have a DVD of the last tests in Berlin
                  which
                  > shows
                  > > a very smooth waterflow of the hull and a very stable course.
                  > >
                  > > Meanwhile there are some ships with these Maderform hulls on
                  the
                  > > BODENSEE and other waterways in Germany, which have proven
                  their
                  > > superiority over coventional designs. But as with all new
                  > > developments there are a lot of established people who deny
                  the
                  > > merits of Maderform hulls although all tests and
                  > computersimulations
                  > > (Navier-Stokes) have shown their superiority.
                  > >
                  > > Having the Maderform hulls in mind and looking at the study
                  plans
                  > of
                  > > SAND PIPER one can find "some" similiar aspects. One might be
                  the
                  > > negative deadrise at the stern. But there is more and this
                  has to
                  > be
                  > > tested. I´ll try to get the plans of SAND PIPER ( with the
                  help
                  > of
                  > > DUCKWORKS as they accept my Master Card ), build a down sized
                  > version
                  > > and test it here on the Baltic. In my cellar I try to twist
                  > sheets of
                  > > aircraft birch ply for a small model to gain an underwater
                  shape
                  > like
                  > > SAND PIPER, to gain the same clever waterflow. But I`m not
                  shure
                  > to
                  > > succeed. Regards, Manfred
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery.
                  Please
                  > be polite.
                  > >
                  > > If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify
                  the
                  > plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and
                  > Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of
                  the
                  > resulting boat.
                  > >
                  > > The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
                  > > <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery. Please
                  be polite.
                  >
                  > If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the
                  plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and
                  Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the
                  resulting boat.
                  >
                  > The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
                  > <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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