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  • arbordg
    OOPS, didn t mean to post that unfinished missive. John, I m glad to see you ve started this group. I ve been attracted to the Atkins designs for awhile. As
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 11, 2004
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      OOPS, didn't mean to post that unfinished missive.

      John,
      I'm glad to see you've started this group. I've been attracted to the
      Atkins designs for awhile. As you may remember, my friend, my 2 sons &
      I decided to build Micheal Storer's "Goat Island Skiff" as our first
      boat. The Atkins boats, however, seem to (perhaps) fit my fantasies
      for the second boat. I really enjoy the traditional looks, and look
      forward to crafting something more challenging than an "instant boat".
      I do have questions, though, that you, or another group member, may be
      able to answer. First - I am considering some sort of minimal,
      trailerable cruising sailboat, ala Welsford's "Penguin". Functionally,
      how much of a penalty is there to a "traditional" design/layout like
      these compared to the seemingly more efficient, far less traditional
      boats from bolger, michalak, et.al.? Where does Welsford fit on that
      spectrum?
      Second - how much more difficult to build is a traditional boat
      (Atkins) vs. stitch & glue vs. Penguin? I don't imagine that
      there are any pat answers to these issues. I understand that there are
      far more variables involved. But, as a newcomer to boatbuilding
      (though not at all to woodworking), I'd like to get some sense of it
      all. This will serve to guide my thinking about what boat #2 might be.
      Again, thanks for taking the time to moderate a new group.

      Happy New Year,
      David Graybeal
      Portland, OR.

      "All who Joy would win, must share it, Happiness was born a twin" -
      Lord Byron
    • John B. Trussell
      David--I can only offer some opinions--mostly based on experience. Most of Adkins designs (as well as Culler s, Hereshoff s, and the boats Chapelle documented)
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 11, 2004
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        David--I can only offer some opinions--mostly based on experience.
         
        Most of Adkins designs (as well as Culler's, Hereshoff's, and the boats Chapelle documented) were intended to stay in the water.  They were only water tight when the planking absorbed enough water so that the planks swelled and "took up".  Further, these boats relyed on a lot of fastenings.  If you try to keep a traditionally built boat on a trailer, a) it will dry out and leak badly when you put it in the water and b) continued transportation on a trailer will loosen all the fastenings.  Some of Adkins designs were for plywood and some can be adopted to strip planking--either of which is better suited to trailer sailing.
         
        When it comes to boatbuilding, be aware that constructing the hull consumes only a fraction (30% to 50%) of the time necessary to complete a boat--the rest goes to building bits and pieces, finishing, fitting out, and rigging.  The time spent on things other than bulding the hull is pretty well fixed, so time saved building the hull represents a relatively small part of the time required for the entire boat.  In general, the time needed to build a hull varies directly with the number of pieces in the boat.  Each piece must be marked out, fabricated, fit into place, and fastened to the boat.  Get the plans, count up the pieces, and you will have a rough way to compare build times between different boats.
         
        Personally, I've always lusted after the Florence Oakland...
         
        Have fun.
         
        John T  
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: arbordg
        Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 5:21 PM
        Subject: [AtkinBoats] New Group Hello

        OOPS, didn't mean to post that unfinished missive.

        John,
        I'm glad to see you've started this group. I've been attracted to the
        Atkins designs for awhile. As you may remember, my friend, my 2 sons &
        I decided to build Micheal Storer's "Goat Island Skiff" as our first
        boat. The Atkins boats, however, seem to (perhaps) fit my fantasies
        for the second boat. I really enjoy the traditional looks, and look
        forward to crafting something more challenging than an "instant boat".
        I do have questions, though, that you, or another group member, may be
        able to answer. First - I am considering some sort of minimal,
        trailerable cruising sailboat, ala Welsford's "Penguin". Functionally,
        how much of a penalty is there to a "traditional" design/layout like
        these compared to  the seemingly more efficient, far less traditional
        boats from bolger, michalak, et.al.? Where does Welsford fit on that
        spectrum?
        Second - how much more difficult to build is a traditional boat
        (Atkins) vs. stitch & glue vs. Penguin? I don't imagine that
        there are any pat answers to these issues. I understand that there are
        far more variables involved. But, as a newcomer to boatbuilding
        (though not at all to woodworking), I'd like to get some sense of it
        all. This will serve to guide my thinking about what boat #2 might be.
        Again, thanks for taking the time to moderate a new group.

        Happy New Year,
        David Graybeal
        Portland, OR.

        "All who Joy would win, must share it, Happiness was born a twin" -
        Lord Byron




        Yahoo! Groups Links

      • jkohnen@boat-links.com
        John is right about traditional carvel-planked boats, but lapstrake boats and batten-seam planked boats can handle trailering pretty well. Both lapstrake and
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 12, 2004
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          John is right about traditional carvel-planked boats, but lapstrake boats
          and batten-seam planked boats can handle trailering pretty well. Both
          lapstrake and batten-seam can be done with plywood planks, which helps the
          situation because of the better dimensional stability of plywood. Many of
          the small boats in the Atkin catalog could be planked lapstrake, even if not
          so designed. Batten-seam using plywood planks is a better way to convert
          older V-bottom designs to plywood than trying to wrap wide sheets of ply
          around them. Gluing the seams of plywood lapstrake or batten-seam boats with
          epoxy adds so much strength that you can reduce the amount of framing.

          On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:36:03 -0500, John T wrote:
          > David--I can only offer some opinions--mostly based on experience.
          >
          > Most of Adkins designs (as well as Culler's, Hereshoff's, and the boats
          Cha=
          > pelle documented) were intended to stay in the water. They were only
          water=
          > tight when the planking absorbed enough water so that the planks swelled
          a=
          > nd "took up". Further, these boats relyed on a lot of fastenings. If you
          =
          > try to keep a traditionally built boat on a trailer, a) it will dry out
          and=
          > leak badly when you put it in the water and b) continued transportation
          on=
          > a trailer will loosen all the fastenings. Some of Adkins designs were
          for=
          > plywood and some can be adopted to strip planking--either of which is
          bett=
          > er suited to trailer sailing.
          > ...

          --
          John <jkohnen@...>
          http://www.boat-links.com/
          I cannot help thinking that the people with motor boats miss a great deal.
          If they would only keep to rowboats or canoes, and use oar or paddle...
          they would get infinitely more benefit than by having their work done for
          them by gasoline. <Theodore Roosevelt>
        • arbordg
          ... boats ... John, OK, I know all the terms/methods except batten-seam . Can you describe? Perhaps I would know by another name? On another topic - are you
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 12, 2004
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            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, jkohnen@b... wrote:
            > John is right about traditional carvel-planked boats, but lapstrake
            boats
            > and batten-seam planked boats can handle trailering pretty well.

            John,
            OK, I know all the terms/methods except "batten-seam". Can you describe?
            Perhaps I would know by another name? On another topic - are you
            currently in construction mode? If I remember correctly, you own
            "Pickle", a design I much admired which did not fit the cartopping
            criterion. Anything else in the works...perhaps an Atkin design?

            Happy New Year,
            David Graybeal
            Portland, OR.

            "An oppressive government is more to be feared than a tiger, or a
            beer" -- Confucius
          • jkohnen@boat-links.com
            In batten-seam construction each seam in the planking is backed up by a batten. IIRC, it was developed by one of the New England whaleboat builders, to give a
            Message 5 of 5 , Jan 12, 2004
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              In batten-seam construction each seam in the planking is backed up by a
              batten. IIRC, it was developed by one of the New England whaleboat builders,
              to give a light, strong hull that'd stay tight out of the water, like
              lapstrake planking, but with a smooth skin that wouldn't scare the whales.
              In later years it became common in light, fast motorboats. A picture is
              worth a thousand words, as they say:

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/files/Temp/BattenSeam.gif

              I suppose there will be an Atkin boat in my future, but the current project
              is a Jim Michalak design, a Scram Pram.

              Cartopping is a PITA unless the boat is _very_ light and handy. You'll soon
              be thinking about a trailer for your Goat Island Skiff. <g> They're really
              less trouble.

              On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:20:27 -0000, David G wrote:
              > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, jkohnen@b... wrote:
              > > John is right about traditional carvel-planked boats, but lapstrake
              > boats
              > > and batten-seam planked boats can handle trailering pretty well.
              >
              > John,
              > OK, I know all the terms/methods except "batten-seam". Can you describe?
              > Perhaps I would know by another name? On another topic - are you
              > currently in construction mode? If I remember correctly, you own
              > "Pickle", a design I much admired which did not fit the cartopping
              > criterion. Anything else in the works...perhaps an Atkin design?

              --
              John <jkohnen@...>
              http://www.boat-links.com/
              One cat just leads to another.
              <Ernest Hemingway>
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