Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Economy Ben?

Expand Messages
  • baycruiser54
    John, or anyone: Would adding a deck, house, and interior to Ben to make him over into a lengthened Economy Jane cause the resulting boat to have sailing
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 28, 2004
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      John, or anyone:

      Would adding a deck, house, and interior to Ben to make him over
      into a lengthened Economy Jane cause the resulting boat to have
      sailing characteristics noticeably inferior to one built strictly
      according to the original plan of either boat?

      I'm probably asking more question here than I am bargaining for,
      because of both Atkins' strict admonishments against significant
      changes, (and my own ignorance) but when you have two designs whose
      lines and dimensions (other than length) are so similar (let's just
      say it - EXACT), I think that just begs the question be asked again,
      especially since neither Bill nor John are available to do a custom
      re-design.

      I love both boats, I just wish they had been combined.

      Steve
    • lon wells
      Steve Sorry that I am not answering your question directly. I have been studying old volumes of the Motor Boating Ideal Series that Billy Atkin was a major
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 29, 2004
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Steve
        Sorry that I am not answering your question directly.

        I have been studying old volumes of the Motor Boating Ideal Series that Billy Atkin was a major contributor, at the end of everyone of his designs he has a sentence about not changing his designs. Everyone is worded differently but they all said don't change my design.

        Speaking as someone who has spent the majority of his life around boats and ships I have never seen a large vessel built 100% as per drawing. That is why all ships have "as built drawings".

        John Gardner would take other designers plans and "Modify" them and present it as a "Modified" . I like his "Modified" Herreshoff rowboat and his "Modified" Chamberlain Dory. Even Billy Atkin did it with his famous Eric and Ingrid designs which was based on the Collin Archer double ender design or to use Billy Atkin words "After the manner of Collin Archer" and he would often call it Atkin-Archer design. John Atkin's Valgerda is a takeoff of the traditional Norwegian fishing boat which he readily admitted to. So both John Gardner and William Akin would take a design give credit to the origin of the concept then add their genus to it.

        Robb White's "modified" Rescue Minor with excellent results. His "White-Atkin Sea Bright Skiff" is proof of his genus of naval design and years of boat building experience. Remember you are building a boat for yourself not a museum piece, but you want it to be safe and perform well. If you do not have that gift of naval genus I would not modify the Atkin Design. You could do like Billy Atkin suggest and select another design

        Lon





        baycruiser54 <baycruiser54@...> wrote:

        John, or anyone:

        Would adding a deck, house, and interior to Ben to make him over
        into a lengthened Economy Jane cause the resulting boat to have
        sailing characteristics noticeably inferior to one built strictly
        according to the original plan of either boat?

        I'm probably asking more question here than I am bargaining for,
        because of both Atkins' strict admonishments against significant
        changes, (and my own ignorance) but when you have two designs whose
        lines and dimensions (other than length) are so similar (let's just
        say it - EXACT), I think that just begs the question be asked again,
        especially since neither Bill nor John are available to do a custom
        re-design.

        I love both boats, I just wish they had been combined.

        Steve





        No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery. Please be polite.

        If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the resulting boat.

        The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
        <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>




        Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


        ---------------------------------
        Yahoo! Groups Links

        To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/

        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        AtkinBoats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.








        ---------------------------------
        Do you Yahoo!?
        All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lewis E. Gordon
        Steve, Just from looking at the lines in the online catalog, it sure looks as if two sections were added right at the midship point to lengthen the hull of
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 29, 2004
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Steve,

          Just from looking at the lines in the online catalog, it sure looks as
          if two sections were added right at the midship point to lengthen the
          hull of Ben. The extra 52 inches would allow a huge galley! As I like
          the gaff rig on E. Jane, I would be tempted to buy those plans, add
          two extra sections (lofted out full size and refair as needed) and
          figure out how to use all the extra added room in the cabin!

          Just my 2 centavos worth,
          Lewis

          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "baycruiser54" <baycruiser54@h...>
          wrote:
          >
          > John, or anyone:
          >
          > Would adding a deck, house, and interior to Ben to make him over
          > into a lengthened Economy Jane cause the resulting boat to have
          > sailing characteristics noticeably inferior to one built strictly
          > according to the original plan of either boat?
          >
          > I'm probably asking more question here than I am bargaining for,
          > because of both Atkins' strict admonishments against significant
          > changes, (and my own ignorance) but when you have two designs whose
          > lines and dimensions (other than length) are so similar (let's just
          > say it - EXACT), I think that just begs the question be asked again,
          > especially since neither Bill nor John are available to do a custom
          > re-design.
          >
          > I love both boats, I just wish they had been combined.
          >
          > Steve
        • baycruiser54
          ... that Billy Atkin was a major contributor, at the end of everyone of his designs he has a sentence about not changing his designs. Everyone is worded
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 29, 2004
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, lon wells <lononriver@y...> wrote:

            > Sorry that I am not answering your question directly.
            >
            > I have been studying old volumes of the Motor Boating Ideal Series
            that Billy Atkin was a major contributor, at the end of everyone of
            his designs he has a sentence about not changing his designs.
            Everyone is worded differently but they all said don't change my
            design...
            ...If you do not have that gift of naval genus I would not modify
            the Atkin Design. You could do like Billy Atkin suggest and select
            another design.


            Sad, Lon, but probably true. Alas, I do not have that genius. I
            appreciate your response, though, because it has obvious merit. I
            just wish I had been a cognizant income-earner when the Atkins were
            alive and working. Still, it never hurts to pose the question every
            now and then.

            Well, Lon has told me what I NEEDED to hear; is there anyone out
            there who'll humor me and tell me what I WANT to hear (chuckle)?

            Cheers, and Happy New Year!
            Steve
          • baycruiser54
            ... looks as ... the ... like ... Hey, thanks, Lewis. Great timing on your post. You must ve posted as I was responding to Lon s message. I agree with you
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 29, 2004
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Lewis E. Gordon"
              <l_gordon_nica@y...> wrote:
              >
              > Steve,
              >
              > Just from looking at the lines in the online catalog, it sure
              looks as
              > if two sections were added right at the midship point to lengthen
              the
              > hull of Ben. The extra 52 inches would allow a huge galley! As I
              like
              > the gaff rig on E. Jane, I would be tempted to buy those plans, add
              > two extra sections (lofted out full size and refair as needed) and
              > figure out how to use all the extra added room in the cabin!
              >
              > Just my 2 centavos worth,
              > Lewis

              Hey, thanks, Lewis. Great timing on your post. You must've posted as
              I was responding to Lon's message. I agree with you about Jane's
              gaff rig. I prefer it to Ben's marconi. Does anyone have experience
              with a wire luff main not attached all the way up the mast like
              Ben's?

              Steve
            • DirtSailor
              Steve, If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and Atkin & Co. will take
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 29, 2004
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                Steve,

                "If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the resulting boat."

                I have modified plans before, some with good results and some with bad results. All in all I did so taking all responsibility for the resulting performance.

                I do not plan to stray from Trims plans, however as i think that the boat has all that I need in a Catboat.

                Dirtsailor



                ---------------------------------
                Do you Yahoo!?
                The all-new My Yahoo! � Get yours free!

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • baycruiser54
                ... plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the resulting boat. ...
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 29, 2004
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, DirtSailor <dirtsailor2003@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > Steve,
                  >
                  > "If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the
                  plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and
                  Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the
                  resulting boat."
                  >
                  > I have modified plans before, some with good results and some with
                  bad results. All in all I did so taking all responsibility for the
                  resulting performance.
                  >
                  > I do not plan to stray from Trims plans, however as i think that
                  the boat has all that I need in a Catboat.
                  >
                  > Dirtsailor

                  I appreciate the feedback my "What if" has generated.

                  I agree with Dirtsailor, and with Lon - any departure from the plans
                  is strictly the responsibility of the owner, with any resulting
                  deficiencies being his/her fault.

                  That being said, I guess what I'm really asking for is some informed
                  (beyond my poor capacity to generate) commentary on the suitability
                  (or lack thereof) of Ben's lines to support the additions of deck
                  and cabin (including an interior ala Economy Jane), and still sail
                  well and predictably.

                  IOW, someone who knows about such things telling me why it can/can't
                  work, and whose reasoning is based more on the science or art of
                  boat design and less on the fact that the Atkins never designed
                  Economy Jane as a 24-footer or Ben as a 21-footer - the fact that
                  they didn't MAY be that they were simply never commissioned to do
                  so. Of course, that is pure speculation on my part.

                  I agree that ANY naval architect designing for the home builder
                  should caution his prospective clients against making such drastic
                  changes. But considering the exactness of the lines of the two
                  designs, can anyone out there determine whether or not such a
                  conversion would work based on the lines?

                  Again, thanks for all the responses so far. May there be more, one
                  way, the other way, both ways, or a third!

                  Cheers,
                  Steve
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free!
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • mikegt4
                  Comparing the table of offsets of the two boats (both are in Ideal series vol. 33) they are virtually identical dimensions with just a station spacing
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 29, 2004
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Comparing the "table of offsets" of the two boats (both are in Ideal
                    series vol. 33) they are virtually identical dimensions with just a
                    station spacing change. Ben does have a longer keel casting by a few
                    inches at each end and a slightly larger rudder which is probably a
                    scaled enlargement. Ballast in EJ is 600 outside, 400 inside, Ben is
                    750/500.
                    Mike

                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "baycruiser54" <baycruiser54@h...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > John, or anyone:
                    >
                    > Would adding a deck, house, and interior to Ben to make him over
                    > into a lengthened Economy Jane cause the resulting boat to have
                    > sailing characteristics noticeably inferior to one built strictly
                    > according to the original plan of either boat?
                    >
                    > I'm probably asking more question here than I am bargaining for,
                    > because of both Atkins' strict admonishments against significant
                    > changes, (and my own ignorance) but when you have two designs whose
                    > lines and dimensions (other than length) are so similar (let's just
                    > say it - EXACT), I think that just begs the question be asked
                    again,
                    > especially since neither Bill nor John are available to do a custom
                    > re-design.
                    >
                    > I love both boats, I just wish they had been combined.
                    >
                    > Steve
                  • jkohnen@boat-links.com
                    You re on your own if you add a cabin to Ben. Some of the worst abominations on the water are the result of people adding cabins to unsuitable boats, or
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 2, 2005
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      You're on your own if you add a cabin to Ben. Some of the worst abominations
                      on the water are the result of people adding cabins to unsuitable boats, or
                      "improving" cabin designs. :ob But with that disclaimer out of the way, I
                      think that a light, low cabin wouldn't harm Ben's performance to any great
                      extent. Economy Jane's interior furnishings are simple, and thus light, and
                      her cabin is low. You should follow that example. If the boat isn't big
                      enough for standing headroom, sitting headroom is plenty. Of course I just
                      run the Atkin Web page, and my opinions are my own, not Atkin & Co's. <g>

                      On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:21:29 -0000, Steve wrote:
                      >
                      > John, or anyone:
                      >
                      > Would adding a deck, house, and interior to Ben to make him over
                      > into a lengthened Economy Jane cause the resulting boat to have
                      > sailing characteristics noticeably inferior to one built strictly
                      > according to the original plan of either boat?
                      >
                      > I'm probably asking more question here than I am bargaining for,
                      > because of both Atkins' strict admonishments against significant
                      > changes, (and my own ignorance) but when you have two designs whose
                      > lines and dimensions (other than length) are so similar (let's just
                      > say it - EXACT), I think that just begs the question be asked again,
                      > especially since neither Bill nor John are available to do a custom
                      > re-design.
                      >
                      > I love both boats, I just wish they had been combined.

                      --
                      John <jkohnen@...>
                      http://www.boat-links.com/
                      Show me a man who has enjoyed his school days and I'll show you a
                      bully and a bore. <Robert Morley>
                    • jkohnen@boat-links.com
                      Ben s forestay fastens to the mast right near where the shrouds do, so the luff of the jib shouldn t sag much. The shrouds are angled back quite a bit to keep
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 2, 2005
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Ben's forestay fastens to the mast right near where the shrouds do, so the
                        luff of the jib shouldn't sag much. The shrouds are angled back quite a bit
                        to keep the forestay taut, but it'll never be as taut as that of one of the
                        high-strung rigs. But then those high-strung rigs put so much strain into
                        the hull that it needs to be over-engineered to keep the boat together --
                        all just to keep that jib luff tight! Fortunately, that's not the Atkins'
                        idea of boating...

                        On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:28:10 -0000, Steve wrote:
                        > ...
                        > Hey, thanks, Lewis. Great timing on your post. You must've posted as
                        > I was responding to Lon's message. I agree with you about Jane's
                        > gaff rig. I prefer it to Ben's marconi. Does anyone have experience
                        > with a wire luff main not attached all the way up the mast like
                        > Ben's?

                        --
                        John <jkohnen@...>
                        http://www.boat-links.com/
                        One cat just leads to another.
                        <Ernest Hemingway>
                      • baycruiser54
                        John - Thanks for your replies. This is the second time I have tried to post, the first time didn t work (at least yet), just to explain if two posts from me
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 4, 2005
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          John -

                          Thanks for your replies. This is the second time I have tried to
                          post, the first time didn't work (at least yet), just to explain if
                          two posts from me show up.

                          Yes, this is exactly what I had in mind, re: putting EJ's cabin and
                          interior on Ben, no other change but to make the deckhouse
                          proportionally longer, and the galley-seating area, and that's it.

                          EJ's cabin looks too good to mess up by making it taller. Standing
                          headroom probably should not be a priority on so small a boat - just
                          go on deck.

                          Steve

                          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, jkohnen@b... wrote:
                          > Ben's forestay fastens to the mast right near where the shrouds
                          do, so the
                          > luff of the jib shouldn't sag much. The shrouds are angled back
                          quite a bit
                          > to keep the forestay taut, but it'll never be as taut as that of
                          one of the
                          > high-strung rigs. But then those high-strung rigs put so much
                          strain into
                          > the hull that it needs to be over-engineered to keep the boat
                          together --
                          > all just to keep that jib luff tight! Fortunately, that's not the
                          Atkins'
                          > idea of boating...
                        • jkohnen@boat-links.com
                          A cabin like Economy Jane s will probably look better on Ben than it does on Economy Jane. I think Billy and John went about as tall as they dared with Economy
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 16, 2005
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                            A cabin like Economy Jane's will probably look better on Ben than it does
                            on Economy Jane. I think Billy and John went about as tall as they dared
                            with Economy Jane's cabin. Ben's extra size should handle the same height
                            more gracefully.

                            Don't use up too much of the cockpit with the cabin, since you will be
                            spending a lot of time outside.

                            On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 22:06:53 -0000, you wrote:
                            > ...
                            > Yes, this is exactly what I had in mind, re: putting EJ's cabin and
                            > interior on Ben, no other change but to make the deckhouse
                            > proportionally longer, and the galley-seating area, and that's it.
                            >
                            > EJ's cabin looks too good to mess up by making it taller. Standing
                            > headroom probably should not be a priority on so small a boat - just
                            > go on deck.

                            --
                            John <jkohnen@...>
                            http://www.boat-links.com/
                            I have never seen a situation so dismal
                            that a policeman couldn't make it worse. <Brendan Behan>
                          • baycruiser54
                            John - I couldn t agree more. If I decide to go this routh, I will certainly do this (not enlarge the cabin too much at the expense of cockpit space). Thanks,
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jan 16, 2005
                            View Source
                            • 0 Attachment
                              John - I couldn't agree more. If I decide to go this routh, I will
                              certainly do this (not enlarge the cabin too much at the expense of
                              cockpit space). Thanks,
                              Steve

                              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, jkohnen@b... wrote:
                              > A cabin like Economy Jane's will probably look better on Ben than
                              it does
                              > on Economy Jane. I think Billy and John went about as tall as they
                              dared
                              > with Economy Jane's cabin. Ben's extra size should handle the same
                              height
                              > more gracefully.
                              >
                              > Don't use up too much of the cockpit with the cabin, since you
                              will be
                              > spending a lot of time outside.
                              >
                              > On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 22:06:53 -0000, you wrote:
                              > > ...
                              > > Yes, this is exactly what I had in mind, re: putting EJ's cabin
                              and
                              > > interior on Ben, no other change but to make the deckhouse
                              > > proportionally longer, and the galley-seating area, and that's
                              it.
                              > >
                              > > EJ's cabin looks too good to mess up by making it taller.
                              Standing
                              > > headroom probably should not be a priority on so small a boat -
                              just
                              > > go on deck.
                              >
                              > --
                              > John <jkohnen@b...>
                              > http://www.boat-links.com/
                              > I have never seen a situation so dismal
                              > that a policeman couldn't make it worse. <Brendan Behan>
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.