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Re: Fore An' Aft

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  • JohnA
    ... Well, that s pretty extensive experience in my book. On this forum, there are a few people who have experience maintaining big Atkin boats who will
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 27, 2013
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      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Briton H" <brithowell@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'd classify myself as an intermediate novice...=)
      >
      > I have built a Stevenson's Weekender, three kayaks and a canoe. One of the kayaks was Nick Schade's free S&G Guillemot. It was built from offsets only, no real plans.

      Well, that's pretty extensive experience in my book.

      On this forum, there are a few people who have experience maintaining big Atkin boats who will hopefully chime in. But for real building advice, I think you are going to have to make friends with the dozen or so people on the WB forum who know what they are talking about for that sized boat.

      I hope you go for it and am very interested in seeing some pictures, eventually! Start a blog!
    • JohnA
      I had another thought which you can take for what it s worth... If I was going to put that much time and money into a boat, I would want the designer to be
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 27, 2013
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        I had another thought which you can take for what it's worth...

        If I was going to put that much time and money into a boat, I would want the designer to be available for consultation when I got stuck.

        That obviously isn't possible with Fore and Aft, but you could go for the next best thing.

        What I would do is come to an arrangement with Paul Gartside. He knows as much about Atkin boats as anyone and would probably be the best go-to person for the really sticky problems you are bound to run into.

        Whatever he charges, it'll be peanuts in the big picture, and I would bet each phone call will more than pay off in lost time or wasted material.

        Just my two cents...
      • Briton H
        Sounds like a good idea. I am starting a 1:12 scale model very soon to help identify problem areas before much is invested. I will post pictures as I progress.
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 27, 2013
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          Sounds like a good idea.

          I am starting a 1:12 scale model very soon to help identify problem areas before much is invested. I will post pictures as I progress.

          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "JohnA" <jalmberg@...> wrote:
          >
          > I had another thought which you can take for what it's worth...
          >
          > If I was going to put that much time and money into a boat, I would want the designer to be available for consultation when I got stuck.
          >
          > That obviously isn't possible with Fore and Aft, but you could go for the next best thing.
          >
          > What I would do is come to an arrangement with Paul Gartside. He knows as much about Atkin boats as anyone and would probably be the best go-to person for the really sticky problems you are bound to run into.
          >
          > Whatever he charges, it'll be peanuts in the big picture, and I would bet each phone call will more than pay off in lost time or wasted material.
          >
          > Just my two cents...
          >
        • JohnA
          ... I think this is an under-discussed part of boat building. How to get sufficient lumber to build a boat, without going broke in the process. It sure helps
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 28, 2013
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            > I am researching gathering and milling much of the lumber and drying it myself as well.

            I think this is an under-discussed part of boat building. How to get sufficient lumber to build a boat, without going broke in the process. It sure helps to locally source your lumber, as Mr. Madison is doing with his Maid of Endor build.

            http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?128218-Building-the-Maid

            He seems to get most of his wood from his backyard ;-)
          • Briton H
            The plans call for Yellow Pine in the keel, and a couple of other areas. SYP is a bit sparse here. Does anyone here know if Doug Fir or Juniper wold be an
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 4 8:02 PM
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              The plans call for Yellow Pine in the keel, and a couple of other areas. SYP is a bit sparse here. Does anyone here know if Doug Fir or Juniper wold be an acceptable substitute?

              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "JohnA" <jalmberg@...> wrote:
              >
              > > I am researching gathering and milling much of the lumber and drying it myself as well.
              >
              > I think this is an under-discussed part of boat building. How to get sufficient lumber to build a boat, without going broke in the process. It sure helps to locally source your lumber, as Mr. Madison is doing with his Maid of Endor build.
              >
              > http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?128218-Building-the-Maid
              >
              > He seems to get most of his wood from his backyard ;-)
              >
            • John Frodigh
              I have a Fore n Aft built in the 50s, the keel and deadwood are white oak, which is great, SYP just lasts longer. John Frodigh From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 5 5:54 AM
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                I have a Fore n Aft built in the 50s, the keel and deadwood are white oak, which is great, SYP just lasts longer.

                 

                John Frodigh 


                From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com [AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Briton H [brithowell@...]
                Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 11:02 PM
                To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Fore An' Aft

                 

                The plans call for Yellow Pine in the keel, and a couple of other areas. SYP is a bit sparse here. Does anyone here know if Doug Fir or Juniper wold be an acceptable substitute?

                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "JohnA" <jalmberg@...> wrote:
                >
                > > I am researching gathering and milling much of the lumber and drying it myself as well.
                >
                > I think this is an under-discussed part of boat building. How to get sufficient lumber to build a boat, without going broke in the process. It sure helps to locally source your lumber, as Mr. Madison is doing with his Maid of Endor build.
                >
                > http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?128218-Building-the-Maid
                >
                > He seems to get most of his wood from his backyard ;-)
                >




                This transmission is not a digital or electronic signature and cannot be used to form, document, or authenticate a contract. Hilton and its affiliates accept no liability arising in connection with this transmission.Copyright 2013 Hilton Worldwide Proprietary and Confidential
              • John Frodigh
                One more thing, I think SYP was specified because of the then popular use of Galvie fasteners, which in White Oak, after time, is disastrous John Frodigh From:
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 5 5:58 AM
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                  One more thing, I think SYP was specified because of the then popular use of Galvie fasteners, which in White Oak, after time, is disastrous

                  John Frodigh 


                  From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com [AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Briton H [brithowell@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 11:02 PM
                  To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Fore An' Aft

                   

                  The plans call for Yellow Pine in the keel, and a couple of other areas. SYP is a bit sparse here. Does anyone here know if Doug Fir or Juniper wold be an acceptable substitute?

                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "JohnA" <jalmberg@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I am researching gathering and milling much of the lumber and drying it myself as well.
                  >
                  > I think this is an under-discussed part of boat building. How to get sufficient lumber to build a boat, without going broke in the process. It sure helps to locally source your lumber, as Mr. Madison is doing with his Maid of Endor build.
                  >
                  > http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?128218-Building-the-Maid
                  >
                  > He seems to get most of his wood from his backyard ;-)
                  >




                  This transmission is not a digital or electronic signature and cannot be used to form, document, or authenticate a contract. Hilton and its affiliates accept no liability arising in connection with this transmission.Copyright 2013 Hilton Worldwide Proprietary and Confidential
                • Timothy Dalton
                  I ve seem lots of SYP at wood salvagers but it is $7/bf. lots of long lengths. If you use Doug Fir it should be epoxy encapsulated and check ring spacing. Tim
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 5 6:00 AM
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                    I've seem lots of SYP at wood salvagers but it is $7/bf. lots of long lengths. If you use Doug Fir it should be epoxy encapsulated and check ring spacing.
                    Tim

                    On Apr 5, 2013, at 7:54 AM, John Frodigh <John.Frodigh@...> wrote:

                     

                    I have a Fore n Aft built in the 50s, the keel and deadwood are white oak, which is great, SYP just lasts longer.

                     

                    John Frodigh 


                    From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com [AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Briton H [brithowell@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 11:02 PM
                    To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Fore An' Aft

                     

                    The plans call for Yellow Pine in the keel, and a couple of other areas. SYP is a bit sparse here. Does anyone here know if Doug Fir or Juniper wold be an acceptable substitute?

                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "JohnA" <jalmberg@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > I am researching gathering and milling much of the lumber and drying it myself as well.
                    >
                    > I think this is an under-discussed part of boat building. How to get sufficient lumber to build a boat, without going broke in the process. It sure helps to locally source your lumber, as Mr. Madison is doing with his Maid of Endor build.
                    >
                    > http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?128218-Building-the-Maid
                    >
                    > He seems to get most of his wood from his backyard ;-)
                    >




                    This transmission is not a digital or electronic signature and cannot be used to form, document, or authenticate a contract. Hilton and its affiliates accept no liability arising in connection with this transmission.Copyright 2013 Hilton Worldwide Proprietary and Confidential

                  • Briton H
                    I would have to splice up a white oak keel, but it is an option. While looking at the idea of cutting my own lumber, I discovered a local tree that is
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 5 7:44 AM
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                      I would have to splice up a white oak keel, but it is an option. While looking at the idea of cutting my own lumber, I discovered a local tree that is considered white oak - Gambel oak. Also called scrub oak around here - a trash tree. Funny what you find when you approach a problem from a different angle. White oak runs about $6 a foot at the lumber yard, but I may be able to get all I want for free.

                      John - What do you think about the internal/external ballast arrangement? Does it work ok, or would you prefer more outside than inside?
                    • John Frodigh
                      Internal ballast is certainly old school, think Belgian pavers as ballast on the return trip of the yankee traders to europe. The combination does work, you
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 5 8:02 AM
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                        Internal  ballast is certainly old school, think Belgian pavers as ballast on the return trip of the yankee traders to europe.

                        The combination does work, you can fine tune your trim, and go light a little for more freeboard. My internal ballast is lead balls 3" in diameter laid out like balls racked up on a pool table, double layers in the bilge and single layer up under the ceiling about a foot up.  My external is about 2,000 lb. of cast iron. I have heard poured concrete is not the way to go for internal.

                         

                        John Frodigh 


                        From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com [AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Briton H [brithowell@...]
                        Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 10:44 AM
                        To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Fore An' Aft

                         

                        I would have to splice up a white oak keel, but it is an option. While looking at the idea of cutting my own lumber, I discovered a local tree that is considered white oak - Gambel oak. Also called scrub oak around here - a trash tree. Funny what you find when you approach a problem from a different angle. White oak runs about $6 a foot at the lumber yard, but I may be able to get all I want for free.

                        John - What do you think about the internal/external ballast arrangement? Does it work ok, or would you prefer more outside than inside?




                        This transmission is not a digital or electronic signature and cannot be used to form, document, or authenticate a contract. Hilton and its affiliates accept no liability arising in connection with this transmission.Copyright 2013 Hilton Worldwide Proprietary and Confidential
                      • expeditions
                        Epoxy encap for DF? Why do that? Asking for major rot IMO. Best would be black locust (hard to find something that big though) or WO. Or go sustainable
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 5 8:04 AM
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                          Epoxy encap for DF?  Why do that?  Asking for major rot IMO.

                           

                          Best would be black locust (hard to find something that big though) or WO.  Or go sustainable tropical wood - purple heart, etc.

                           

                          From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Timothy Dalton
                          Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 9:01 AM
                          To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                          Cc: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [AtkinBoats] Re: Fore An' Aft

                           

                           

                          I've seem lots of SYP at wood salvagers but it is $7/bf. lots of long lengths. If you use Doug Fir it should be epoxy encapsulated and check ring spacing.

                          Tim


                          On Apr 5, 2013, at 7:54 AM, John Frodigh <John.Frodigh@...> wrote:

                           

                          I have a Fore n Aft built in the 50s, the keel and deadwood are white oak, which is great, SYP just lasts longer.

                           

                          John Frodigh 


                          From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com [AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Briton H [brithowell@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 11:02 PM
                          To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Fore An' Aft

                           

                          The plans call for Yellow Pine in the keel, and a couple of other areas. SYP is a bit sparse here. Does anyone here know if Doug Fir or Juniper wold be an acceptable substitute?

                          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "JohnA" <jalmberg@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > I am researching gathering and milling much of the lumber and drying it myself as well.
                          >
                          > I think this is an under-discussed part of boat building. How to get sufficient lumber to build a boat, without going broke in the process. It sure helps to locally source your lumber, as Mr. Madison is doing with his Maid of Endor build.
                          >
                          > http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?128218-Building-the-Maid
                          >
                          > He seems to get most of his wood from his backyard ;-)
                          >

                           



                          This transmission is not a digital or electronic signature and cannot be used to form, document, or authenticate a contract. Hilton and its affiliates accept no liability arising in connection with this transmission.Copyright 2013 Hilton Worldwide Proprietary and Confidential

                        • mrk_gillett
                          This is a bit to wade through but should answer you questions about the potential for local woods.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 5 8:12 AM
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                            This is a bit to wade through but should answer you questions about the potential for local woods.
                             
                          • Edgar
                            What about the obvious-white oak? I don t know where you are so I don t know if it s obtainable. I have used Doug Fir for lighter boats but for a heavier boat
                            Message 13 of 25 , Apr 5 8:22 AM
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                              What about the obvious-white oak? I don't know where you are so I don't know if it's obtainable. I have used Doug Fir for lighter boats but for a heavier boat like F'nA I would not use it. It wears away under abrasion (grounding) much faster than oak. White oak, not red oak.

                              I am currently building Ninigret.

                              Bill B
                            • JohnA
                              ... This is one of those cases, I think, where you can get into trouble by being too creative . Boat builders in your area figured out a long time ago what
                              Message 14 of 25 , Apr 5 8:26 AM
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                                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Briton H" <brithowell@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > The plans call for Yellow Pine in the keel, and a couple of other areas. SYP is a bit sparse here. Does anyone here know if Doug Fir or Juniper wold be an acceptable substitute?

                                This is one of those cases, I think, where you can get into trouble by being too 'creative'. Boat builders in your area figured out a long time ago what local woods were good for what. The best thing to do (for a number of reasons!) is to track down some old-time boat builders and ask them. It might take a bit of digging to find them, but they are around.

                                You need a local support community for a project like this. Most would be thrilled to share their experience, I think.
                              • Briton H
                                Thanks for that link. I had a similar one, but had lost it in between projects.
                                Message 15 of 25 , Apr 5 8:28 AM
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                                  Thanks for that link. I had a similar one, but had lost it in between projects.
                                • Giuliano Girometta
                                  White oak is a good substitute. Today s SYP is totally different, they now altered the genetic of the seeds to speed up the growt and the actual SYP is no more
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Apr 5 2:36 PM
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                                    White oak is a good substitute. Today's SYP is totally different, they now altered the genetic of the seeds to speed up the growt and the actual SYP is no more hard and rot resistant like the old.
                                     
                                    Giuliano


                                    --- On Fri, 4/5/13, John Frodigh <John.Frodigh@...> wrote:

                                    From: John Frodigh <John.Frodigh@...>
                                    Subject: RE: [AtkinBoats] Re: Fore An' Aft
                                    To: "AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com" <AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Date: Friday, April 5, 2013, 12:54 PM

                                     
                                    I have a Fore n Aft built in the 50s, the keel and deadwood are white oak, which is great, SYP just lasts longer.
                                     

                                    John Frodigh 


                                    From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com [AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Briton H [brithowell@...]
                                    Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 11:02 PM
                                    To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Fore An' Aft

                                     
                                    The plans call for Yellow Pine in the keel, and a couple of other areas. SYP is a bit sparse here. Does anyone here know if Doug Fir or Juniper wold be an acceptable substitute?

                                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "JohnA" <jalmberg@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > I am researching gathering and milling much of the lumber and drying it myself as well.
                                    >
                                    > I think this is an under-discussed part of boat building. How to get sufficient lumber to build a boat, without going broke in the process. It sure helps to locally source your lumber, as Mr. Madison is doing with his Maid of Endor build.
                                    >
                                    > http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?128218-Building-the-Maid
                                    >
                                    > He seems to get most of his wood from his backyard ;-)
                                    >




                                    This transmission is not a digital or electronic signature and cannot be used to form, document, or authenticate a contract. Hilton and its affiliates accept no liability arising in connection with this transmission.Copyright 2013 Hilton Worldwide Proprietary and Confidential
                                  • Giuliano Girometta
                                    That is the good one. I have about 300 bf that I salvaged from an old building. They now are at least 98 years old. You must see the difference between the two
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Apr 5 2:51 PM
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                                      That is the good one.
                                      I have about 300 bf that I salvaged from an old building. They now are at least 98 years old.
                                      You must see the difference between the two after you clear the surface with the planer.
                                       
                                      Giuliano

                                      --- On Fri, 4/5/13, Timothy Dalton <finnbardalton@...> wrote:

                                      From: Timothy Dalton <finnbardalton@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [AtkinBoats] Re: Fore An' Aft
                                      To: "AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com" <AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Cc: "AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com" <AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Date: Friday, April 5, 2013, 1:00 PM

                                       
                                      I've seem lots of SYP at wood salvagers but it is $7/bf. lots of long lengths. If you use Doug Fir it should be epoxy encapsulated and check ring spacing.
                                      Tim

                                      On Apr 5, 2013, at 7:54 AM, John Frodigh <John.Frodigh@...> wrote:

                                       
                                      I have a Fore n Aft built in the 50s, the keel and deadwood are white oak, which is great, SYP just lasts longer.
                                       

                                      John Frodigh 


                                      From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com [AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Briton H [brithowell@...]
                                      Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 11:02 PM
                                      To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Fore An' Aft

                                       
                                      The plans call for Yellow Pine in the keel, and a couple of other areas. SYP is a bit sparse here. Does anyone here know if Doug Fir or Juniper wold be an acceptable substitute?

                                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "JohnA" <jalmberg@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > I am researching gathering and milling much of the lumber and drying it myself as well.
                                      >
                                      > I think this is an under-discussed part of boat building. How to get sufficient lumber to build a boat, without going broke in the process. It sure helps to locally source your lumber, as Mr. Madison is doing with his Maid of Endor build.
                                      >
                                      > http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?128218-Building-the-Maid
                                      >
                                      > He seems to get most of his wood from his backyard ;-)
                                      >




                                      This transmission is not a digital or electronic signature and cannot be used to form, document, or authenticate a contract. Hilton and its affiliates accept no liability arising in connection with this transmission.Copyright 2013 Hilton Worldwide Proprietary and Confidential
                                    • expeditions
                                      He is right on about Long leaf YP these days. I used very large timbers from old factories for a 34 cutter I have. The structure of that wood was markedly
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Apr 6 5:27 AM
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                                        He is right on about Long leaf YP these days.  I used very large timbers from old factories for a 34 cutter I have.  The structure of that wood was markedly different that current or even a few decades on YP.  This holds true or even more so for Doug Fir.

                                         

                                        WO and Bronze -- very good combination.

                                         

                                        From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Giuliano Girometta
                                        Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 5:36 PM
                                        To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: RE: [AtkinBoats] Re: Fore An' Aft

                                         

                                         

                                        White oak is a good substitute. Today's SYP is totally different, they now altered the genetic of the seeds to speed up the growt and the actual SYP is no more hard and rot resistant like the old.

                                         

                                        Giuliano



                                        --- On Fri, 4/5/13, John Frodigh <John.Frodigh@...> wrote:


                                        From: John Frodigh <John.Frodigh@...>
                                        Subject: RE: [AtkinBoats] Re: Fore An' Aft
                                        To: "AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com" <AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Date: Friday, April 5, 2013, 12:54 PM

                                         

                                        I have a Fore n Aft built in the 50s, the keel and deadwood are white oak, which is great, SYP just lasts longer.

                                         

                                        John Frodigh 


                                        From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com [AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Briton H [brithowell@...]
                                        Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 11:02 PM
                                        To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Fore An' Aft

                                         

                                        The plans call for Yellow Pine in the keel, and a couple of other areas. SYP is a bit sparse here. Does anyone here know if Doug Fir or Juniper wold be an acceptable substitute?

                                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "JohnA" <jalmberg@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > I am researching gathering and milling much of the lumber and drying it myself as well.
                                        >
                                        > I think this is an under-discussed part of boat building. How to get sufficient lumber to build a boat, without going broke in the process. It sure helps to locally source your lumber, as Mr. Madison is doing with his Maid of Endor build.
                                        >
                                        > http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?128218-Building-the-Maid
                                        >
                                        > He seems to get most of his wood from his backyard ;-)
                                        >

                                         



                                        This transmission is not a digital or electronic signature and cannot be used to form, document, or authenticate a contract. Hilton and its affiliates accept no liability arising in connection with this transmission.Copyright 2013 Hilton Worldwide Proprietary and Confidential

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