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Re: 10' Lapstrake Sailing Dinghy "Vintage"

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  • john
    John Almberg makes a good point, downwind, a full keel will add significant drag on such a short waterline length hull, also keep in mind that most centerboard
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 31, 2011
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      John Almberg makes a good point, downwind, a full keel will add significant drag on such a short waterline length hull, also keep in mind that most centerboard hulls gain strength 7 support for the foil below with support above (usually a seat or thwart) wich you will be lacking with a keel, so may need to increase sizing of floor timbers or something.

      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, John Almberg <jalmberg@...> wrote:
      >
      > Well, it's uncharted territory. Post pictures!
      >
      > - John
      >
      > Sent from my iPad, so may be a bit brief.
      >
      > On Jul 30, 2011, at 11:25 AM, "thirdbluestreaksamurai" <cmetzbower@...> wrote:
      >
      > > I plan to use her for sailing only and I want something that is 12' or less and will handle rougher seas then the original plan. This is more for fun then anything so if it turns out to be a bad idea then so be it.
      > >
      > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, John Almberg <jalmberg@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I started building Vintage last winter, but half-way through lofting her, I realized I had no idea what I was doing, so I spent a LONG time studying how to properly loft a boat. Vintage is a good subject to practice on, because she has all the lines a big boat has, in a small package. Long story short: by the time I got her lofted, Spring was coming on fast and I had to do a bunch of work on my bigger boat, so Vintage got put on hold. Hope to finish her this winter.
      > > >
      > > > Why are you thinking of building her with a keel? To eliminate the centerboard case? When you say 'full keel', I guess you mean keeping the body plan the same shape, but making the current 'keel' (the structural member the center board goes through) deeper?
      > > >
      > > > I wonder how that would affect her rowing and downwind performance. And weight, come to think of it.
      > > >
      > > > -- John
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Brandon F
      I think both Johns are wrong. A full keel, by which I assume you mean a three- or four-inch keel that goes the length of the boat, is a good option. It
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 1 8:07 AM
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        I think both Johns are wrong. A "full keel," by which I assume you mean a three- or four-inch keel that goes the length of the boat, is a good option. It simplifies construction, simplifies maintenance (since daggerboard and centerboard trunks are notorious places for rot problems) and it would make the boat stronger. Cutting a slot in a perfectly good bottom gave boatbuilders of past generations pause and I think they were right. The drag from the additional wetted surface would, I'm sure, be less than the turbulence around the daggerboard slot and not cause "significant drag." The only thing you would give up is lift when you are hard on the wind. If later you feel like you need that you could make a clip on leaboard. I know you will not miss tripping over the trunk or the daggerboard. Simple. Strong. Better. Go for it!

        Brandon

        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "john" <acp1934@...> wrote:
        >
        > John Almberg makes a good point, downwind, a full keel will add significant drag on such a short waterline length hull, also keep in mind that most centerboard hulls gain strength 7 support for the foil below with support above (usually a seat or thwart) wich you will be lacking with a keel, so may need to increase sizing of floor timbers or something.
        >
        > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, John Almberg <jalmberg@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Well, it's uncharted territory. Post pictures!
        > >
        > > - John
        > >
        > > Sent from my iPad, so may be a bit brief.
        > >
        > > On Jul 30, 2011, at 11:25 AM, "thirdbluestreaksamurai" <cmetzbower@> wrote:
        > >
        > > > I plan to use her for sailing only and I want something that is 12' or less and will handle rougher seas then the original plan. This is more for fun then anything so if it turns out to be a bad idea then so be it.
        > > >
        > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, John Almberg <jalmberg@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > I started building Vintage last winter, but half-way through lofting her, I realized I had no idea what I was doing, so I spent a LONG time studying how to properly loft a boat. Vintage is a good subject to practice on, because she has all the lines a big boat has, in a small package. Long story short: by the time I got her lofted, Spring was coming on fast and I had to do a bunch of work on my bigger boat, so Vintage got put on hold. Hope to finish her this winter.
        > > > >
        > > > > Why are you thinking of building her with a keel? To eliminate the centerboard case? When you say 'full keel', I guess you mean keeping the body plan the same shape, but making the current 'keel' (the structural member the center board goes through) deeper?
        > > > >
        > > > > I wonder how that would affect her rowing and downwind performance. And weight, come to think of it.
        > > > >
        > > > > -- John
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • John Almberg
        Sorry, but I think you are wrong, Brandon. The advantage of a centerboard is obvious downwind. You pull it up and all the resistance disappears as if by magic.
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 1 8:59 AM
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          Sorry, but I think you are wrong, Brandon. 

          The advantage of a centerboard is obvious downwind. You pull it up and all the resistance disappears as if by magic. The same applies when rowing. The turbulence around the open centerboard case is nothing compared to a great big board or keel stuck down into the water.

          Boat builders may have debated this question at one time, but the debate was settled long ago, which is why almost all boats of this size have centerboards. Even in the 30s, boats like Swallow -- which had a keel -- were considered 'old fashioned' compared to Amazon, which had a centerboard. As anyone who's read "Swallows and Amazons" knows, Amazon was significantly faster downwind, and Swallow was no fun to row.

          Swallow's interior wasn't cluttered up with a centerboard case -- the only significant advantage she had over Amazon.

          There's no reason a modern boat can't be built with a very strong centerboard case that will never leak. 

          -- John


          On Aug 1, 2011, at 11:07 AM, Brandon F wrote:

           

          I think both Johns are wrong. A "full keel," by which I assume you mean a three- or four-inch keel that goes the length of the boat, is a good option. It simplifies construction, simplifies maintenance (since daggerboard and centerboard trunks are notorious places for rot problems) and it would make the boat stronger. Cutting a slot in a perfectly good bottom gave boatbuilders of past generations pause and I think they were right. The drag from the additional wetted surface would, I'm sure, be less than the turbulence around the daggerboard slot and not cause "significant drag." The only thing you would give up is lift when you are hard on the wind. If later you feel like you need that you could make a clip on leaboard. I know you will not miss tripping over the trunk or the daggerboard. Simple. Strong. Better. Go for it!

          Brandon

          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "john" <acp1934@...> wrote:
          >
          > John Almberg makes a good point, downwind, a full keel will add significant drag on such a short waterline length hull, also keep in mind that most centerboard hulls gain strength 7 support for the foil below with support above (usually a seat or thwart) wich you will be lacking with a keel, so may need to increase sizing of floor timbers or something.
          >
          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, John Almberg <jalmberg@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Well, it's uncharted territory. Post pictures!
          > >
          > > - John
          > >
          > > Sent from my iPad, so may be a bit brief.
          > >
          > > On Jul 30, 2011, at 11:25 AM, "thirdbluestreaksamurai" <cmetzbower@> wrote:
          > >
          > > > I plan to use her for sailing only and I want something that is 12' or less and will handle rougher seas then the original plan. This is more for fun then anything so if it turns out to be a bad idea then so be it.
          > > >
          > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, John Almberg <jalmberg@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > I started building Vintage last winter, but half-way through lofting her, I realized I had no idea what I was doing, so I spent a LONG time studying how to properly loft a boat. Vintage is a good subject to practice on, because she has all the lines a big boat has, in a small package. Long story short: by the time I got her lofted, Spring was coming on fast and I had to do a bunch of work on my bigger boat, so Vintage got put on hold. Hope to finish her this winter.
          > > > >
          > > > > Why are you thinking of building her with a keel? To eliminate the centerboard case? When you say 'full keel', I guess you mean keeping the body plan the same shape, but making the current 'keel' (the structural member the center board goes through) deeper?
          > > > >
          > > > > I wonder how that would affect her rowing and downwind performance. And weight, come to think of it.
          > > > >
          > > > > -- John
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >


        • JohnA
          Rather than modifying Vintage, why not take a look at Pocahontas: http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/Pocahontas.html Sounds like a better fit for you. I always
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 1 9:16 AM
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            Rather than modifying Vintage, why not take a look at Pocahontas:

            http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/Pocahontas.html

            Sounds like a better fit for you. I always liked the looks of that boat... looks like she could go anywhere. That's an illusion, of course, but it's fun to dream.

            -- John


            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "thirdbluestreaksamurai" <cmetzbower@...> wrote:
            >
            > Has anyone built this design yet? I was also thinking about building it with a full keel instead of a centerboard.
            >
          • thirdbluestreaksamurai
            My plan is to build a micro cruiser out of it. Something small, sturdy, stable and almost tank-like that I can stay a night or two on or sail and camp for a
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 4 5:07 PM
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              My plan is to build a micro cruiser out of it. Something small, sturdy, stable and almost tank-like that I can stay a night or two on or sail and camp for a weekend. I want more space inside so a forward stepped mast made sense plus I want a shallow draft without a centerboard box to take up space. I would prefer 10-12 feet and no lee-board. I know it sounds crazy and impracticable but that's part of the fun of it.

              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "thirdbluestreaksamurai" <cmetzbower@...> wrote:
              >
              > Has anyone built this design yet? I was also thinking about building it with a full keel instead of a centerboard.
              >
            • John Kohnen
              Maybe you should look at John Welsford s SCAMP, a very, very capable 12-footer: http://smallcraftadvisor.com/component/content/article/361
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 4 8:58 PM
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                Maybe you should look at John Welsford's SCAMP, a very, very capable
                12-footer:

                http://smallcraftadvisor.com/component/content/article/361

                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/scamp/

                It's got a centerboard, but it's offcenter and out of the way. The cuddy
                is just for storage, so you have to use a boom tent, but the cockpit is
                real roomy. One of our Coots did the Everglades Challenge in one:

                http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/11/outings/andrew/

                On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 17:07:17 -0700, thirdbluestreaksamurai wrote:

                > My plan is to build a micro cruiser out of it. Something small, sturdy,
                > stable and almost tank-like that I can stay a night or two on or sail
                > and camp for a weekend. I want more space inside so a forward stepped
                > mast made sense plus I want a shallow draft without a centerboard box to
                > take up space. I would prefer 10-12 feet and no lee-board. I know it
                > sounds crazy and impracticable but that's part of the fun of it.

                --
                John (jkohnen@...)
                People say that life is the thing, but I prefer reading. (Logan
                Pearsall Smith)
              • praetorian1962
                10-12 feet, no leeboard or centerboard, full depth keel. The Bahama Dinghy 13-20 feet long. Measured line drawings (No offsets, or construction details) are
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 5 10:22 AM
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                  10-12 feet, no leeboard or centerboard, full depth keel.
                  The Bahama Dinghy 13-20 feet long. Measured line drawings (No offsets, or construction details) are available from the Smithsonian Institution. Originally published in American Small Sailing Craft by HI Chapelle. page 226-231. Fig 89. As drawn there it is 14 foot. "The cost to duplicate the plans for the Bahama Dinghy (1898) ASSC 89. is listed on pg. Page 27 of the "Ship Plans List" as a single sheet @ $10.00. There is an additional $5.00 charge for shipping and handling."
                  Ship Plans
                  Smithsonian Institution
                  PO Box 37012
                  NMAH 5004 / MRC 628
                  Washington, DC 20013-7012 USA

                  Another 14 footer is the Heron 14 by Selway Fisher.
                  Found here; http://www.selway-fisher.com/PCup16.htm#HERON

                  These are the only two plans I have found in the 10-14 foot range with no leeboard or centerboard, and "full keel." If there are other plans I don't know about them and I have been researching this for 4 years now. I have both of these plans. The Bahama Dinghy will be the hardest to build due to lack of any details on the drawings. The Heron 14 would be very easy and fast building.
                  Good Luck with your search and if you find something with a "full keel" send me the information please.
                  Jim




                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "thirdbluestreaksamurai" <cmetzbower@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > My plan is to build a micro cruiser out of it. Something small, sturdy, stable and almost tank-like that I can stay a night or two on or sail and camp for a weekend. I want more space inside so a forward stepped mast made sense plus I want a shallow draft without a centerboard box to take up space. I would prefer 10-12 feet and no lee-board. I know it sounds crazy and impracticable but that's part of the fun of it.
                  >
                  > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "thirdbluestreaksamurai" <cmetzbower@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Has anyone built this design yet? I was also thinking about building it with a full keel instead of a centerboard.
                  > >
                  >
                • thirdbluestreaksamurai
                  Thank you guys for the leads. I like the Scamp and the Bahama Dinghy and I plan on building a long distance cruiser out of selway s Tideway
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 5 11:42 AM
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                    Thank you guys for the leads. I like the "Scamp" and the "Bahama Dinghy" and I plan on building a long distance cruiser out of selway's "Tideway"

                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "thirdbluestreaksamurai" <cmetzbower@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Has anyone built this design yet? I was also thinking about building it with a full keel instead of a centerboard.
                    >
                  • John Almberg
                    Heck, in a Tideway, every sail across the bay will feel like a long distance voyage! You should check out Margaret Dye s Dinghy Cruising
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 5 2:07 PM
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                      Heck, in a Tideway, every sail across the bay will feel like a long distance voyage!

                      You should check out Margaret Dye's "Dinghy Cruising" (http://www.amazon.com/Dinghy-Cruising-Margaret-Dye/dp/0713679344/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312577604&sr=8-1), and Frank Dye's "Open Boat Cruising", if you are serious about the 'long distance' part of your plan. I thought we were talking the occasional overnighter. 

                      A boat doesn't have to look (and sail) like a tank to be sea worthy. The above book will give you some ideas you might not have considered, yet. Always best to consult an expert before jumping into the deep end. The Dyes were the experts in what you are talking about. 

                      -- John


                      On Aug 5, 2011, at 2:42 PM, thirdbluestreaksamurai wrote:

                       

                      Thank you guys for the leads. I like the "Scamp" and the "Bahama Dinghy" and I plan on building a long distance cruiser out of selway's "Tideway"

                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "thirdbluestreaksamurai" <cmetzbower@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Has anyone built this design yet? I was also thinking about building it with a full keel instead of a centerboard.
                      >


                    • thirdbluestreaksamurai
                      Thanks, I will defiantly read it. My plans for the Tideway are several years away and still evolving but I am looking for a overnighter right now. I am in
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 5 2:31 PM
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                        Thanks, I will defiantly read it. My plans for the Tideway are several years away and still evolving but I am looking for a overnighter right now. I am in school right now and want something for the weekends I have free time and money to get away.

                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, John Almberg <jalmberg@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Heck, in a Tideway, every sail across the bay will feel like a long distance voyage!
                        >
                        > You should check out Margaret Dye's "Dinghy Cruising" (http://www.amazon.com/Dinghy-Cruising-Margaret-Dye/dp/0713679344/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312577604&sr=8-1), and Frank Dye's "Open Boat Cruising", if you are serious about the 'long distance' part of your plan. I thought we were talking the occasional overnighter.
                        >
                        > A boat doesn't have to look (and sail) like a tank to be sea worthy. The above book will give you some ideas you might not have considered, yet. Always best to consult an expert before jumping into the deep end. The Dyes were the experts in what you are talking about.
                        >
                        > -- John
                        >
                        >
                        > On Aug 5, 2011, at 2:42 PM, thirdbluestreaksamurai wrote:
                        >
                        > > Thank you guys for the leads. I like the "Scamp" and the "Bahama Dinghy" and I plan on building a long distance cruiser out of selway's "Tideway"
                        > >
                        > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "thirdbluestreaksamurai" <cmetzbower@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Has anyone built this design yet? I was also thinking about building it with a full keel instead of a centerboard.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • praetorian1962
                        Both of the books John mentioned would be a great read. They really helped me with choosing the right boat for myself. Tideway being the long term plans and
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 5 5:02 PM
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                          Both of the books John mentioned would be a great read. They really helped me with choosing the right boat for myself.

                          Tideway being the long term plans and only needing something for weekend get-a-ways for now, I wouldn't be changing very much of anything. Personally I would build Paul Fisher's 12' Coble. I am not sure and would check with Paul but you might be able to leave the centerboard completely out and redesign the rudder. The original cobles didn't have any centerboard. They used a over-sized rudder along with the designs deep forefront, for Lateral Resistance.

                          As for Atkin designs, I would go with Nina.

                          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "thirdbluestreaksamurai" <cmetzbower@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Thanks, I will defiantly read it. My plans for the Tideway are several years away and still evolving but I am looking for a overnighter right now. I am in school right now and want something for the weekends I have free time and money to get away.
                          >
                          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, John Almberg <jalmberg@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Heck, in a Tideway, every sail across the bay will feel like a long distance voyage!
                          > >
                          > > You should check out Margaret Dye's "Dinghy Cruising" (http://www.amazon.com/Dinghy-Cruising-Margaret-Dye/dp/0713679344/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312577604&sr=8-1), and Frank Dye's "Open Boat Cruising", if you are serious about the 'long distance' part of your plan. I thought we were talking the occasional overnighter.
                          > >
                          > > A boat doesn't have to look (and sail) like a tank to be sea worthy. The above book will give you some ideas you might not have considered, yet. Always best to consult an expert before jumping into the deep end. The Dyes were the experts in what you are talking about.
                          > >
                          > > -- John
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > On Aug 5, 2011, at 2:42 PM, thirdbluestreaksamurai wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > Thank you guys for the leads. I like the "Scamp" and the "Bahama Dinghy" and I plan on building a long distance cruiser out of selway's "Tideway"
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "thirdbluestreaksamurai" <cmetzbower@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Has anyone built this design yet? I was also thinking about building it with a full keel instead of a centerboard.
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • John Kohnen
                          Bolger s Oldshoe: http://www.solopublications.com/saillanc.html http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/01/articles/old_shoe/ I still vote for SCAMP. It s a seaworthy
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 5 5:05 PM
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                            Bolger's Oldshoe:

                            http://www.solopublications.com/saillanc.html

                            http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/01/articles/old_shoe/

                            I still vote for SCAMP. It's a seaworthy expedition boat right out of the
                            box.

                            On Fri, 05 Aug 2011 10:22:17 -0700, Jim wrote:

                            > 10-12 feet, no leeboard or centerboard, full depth keel.
                            > The Bahama Dinghy 13-20 feet long....
                            >
                            > Another 14 footer is the Heron 14 by Selway Fisher.
                            > Found here; http://www.selway-fisher.com/PCup16.htm#HERON
                            >
                            > These are the only two plans I have found in the 10-14 foot range with
                            > no leeboard or centerboard, and "full keel."...


                            --
                            John (jkohnen@...)
                            As for myself, the wonderful sea charmed me from the first.
                            (Joshua Slocum)
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