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Re: Help with offsets

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  • davy riggs
    Hi, Billy This may seem like a bunch of extra work but, trust me, it is not.   You would do well to get an architect s scale and make a 1 =1 (or better,
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 26, 2011
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      Hi, Billy

      This may seem like a bunch of extra work but, trust me, it is not.   You would do well to get an architect's scale and make a 1"=1' (or better, 3"=1') drawing before you do it full scale on the floor.   I like to draw on smoothly finished aircraft plywood, then take it with me to the lofting floor for instant reference- much handier than a paper drawing.

      You will find problems (and, yes, Mr. Atkin's mistakes) and fix them sitting comfortably at your desk where you can see the whole scheme without gymnastics.  So by the time you begin the full-size lofting, you will have a good idea of what you are doing and save beaucoups headaches and knee-aches.  

      You may even, as I have done, find cause to alter course before you embark on a project you should not.

      Dave


      Man proposes- God disposes. -U.S. Grant
    • Billy
      Already have a scale rule and used it to check things on the plans, which are drawn 1 =1 and the plans are really close, or, accurately scaled. I just can t
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 27, 2011
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        Already have a scale rule and used it to check things on the plans, which are drawn 1"=1' and the plans are really close, or, accurately scaled. I just can't measure things like 1/16th with it. This is just a "simple" flat bottom skiff but it is my first time trying to loft a design. All my others were S&G boats or kits. I'm sure I'm just missing something and that I'll figure it out.(?)



        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, davy riggs <titanicslim@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi, Billy
        > This may seem like a bunch of extra work but, trust me, it is not.   You would do well to get an architect's scale and make a 1"=1' (or better, 3"=1') drawing before you do it full scale on the floor.   I like to draw on smoothly finished aircraft plywood, then take it with me to the lofting floor for instant reference- much handier than a paper drawing.
        > You will find problems (and, yes, Mr. Atkin's mistakes) and fix them sitting comfortably at your desk where you can see the whole scheme without gymnastics.  So by the time you begin the full-size lofting, you will have a good idea of what you are doing and save beaucoups headaches and knee-aches.  
        > You may even, as I have done, find cause to alter course before you embark on a project you should not.
        > Dave
        >
        > Man proposes- God disposes. -U.S. Grant
        >
      • John Almberg
        Using the scale rule for sanity checks is good, but you shouldn t need it for lofting. All the measurements you need should be on the plans or offset table.
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 27, 2011
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          Using the scale rule for sanity checks is good, but you shouldn't need it for lofting. All the measurements you need should be on the plans or offset table. You just need to take it step by step. What have you done so far? What are you stuck on, specifically?

          -- John

          Billy wrote:
           

          Already have a scale rule and used it to check things on the plans, which are drawn 1"=1' and the plans are really close, or, accurately scaled. I just can't measure things like 1/16th with it. This is just a "simple" flat bottom skiff but it is my first time trying to loft a design. All my others were S&G boats or kits. I'm sure I'm just missing something and that I'll figure it out.(?)

          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, davy riggs <titanicslim@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi, Billy
          > This may seem like a bunch of extra work but, trust me, it is not.   You would do well to get an architect's scale and make a 1"=1' (or better, 3"=1') drawing before you do it full scale on the floor.   I like to draw on smoothly finished aircraft plywood, then take it with me to the lofting floor for instant reference- much handier than a paper drawing.
          > You will find problems (and, yes, Mr. Atkin's mistakes) and fix them sitting comfortably at your desk where you can see the whole scheme without gymnastics.  So by the time you begin the full-size lofting, you will have a good idea of what you are doing and save beaucoups headaches and knee-aches.  
          > You may even, as I have done, find cause to alter course before you embark on a project you should not.
          > Dave
          >
          > Man proposes- God disposes. -U.S. Grant
          >


        • Billy
          Well, I m sorry, but they are not all there.
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 27, 2011
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            Well, I'm sorry, but they are not all there.

            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, John Almberg <jalmberg@...> wrote:
            >
            > Using the scale rule for sanity checks is good, but you shouldn't need
            > it for lofting. All the measurements you need should be on the plans or
            > offset table. You just need to take it step by step. What have you done
            > so far? What are you stuck on, specifically?
            >
            > -- John
            >
            > Billy wrote:
            > >
            > > Already have a scale rule and used it to check things on the plans,
            > > which are drawn 1"=1' and the plans are really close, or, accurately
            > > scaled. I just can't measure things like 1/16th with it. This is just
            > > a "simple" flat bottom skiff but it is my first time trying to loft a
            > > design. All my others were S&G boats or kits. I'm sure I'm just
            > > missing something and that I'll figure it out.(?)
            > >
            > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
            > > <mailto:AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com>, davy riggs <titanicslim@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi, Billy
            > > > This may seem like a bunch of extra work but, trust me, it is not.
            > > You would do well to get an architect's scale and make a 1"=1' (or
            > > better, 3"=1') drawing before you do it full scale on the floor. I
            > > like to draw on smoothly finished aircraft plywood, then take it with
            > > me to the lofting floor for instant reference- much handier than a
            > > paper drawing.
            > > > You will find problems (and, yes, Mr. Atkin's mistakes) and fix them
            > > sitting comfortably at your desk where you can see the whole scheme
            > > without gymnastics. So by the time you begin the full-size lofting,
            > > you will have a good idea of what you are doing and save beaucoups
            > > headaches and knee-aches.
            > > > You may even, as I have done, find cause to alter course before you
            > > embark on a project you should not.
            > > > Dave
            > > >
            > > > Man proposes- God disposes. -U.S. Grant
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Billy
            Oh, specifically, there are no offsets from the bottom of the boat to the sheerline to tell me the height of each station to make the molds, there is nothing
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 27, 2011
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              Oh, specifically, there are no offsets from the bottom of the boat to the sheerline to tell me the height of each station to make the molds, there is nothing telling me the distance from the baseline to the load waterline, there is no offset for the height of station 12, nothing telling me how high the bottom of the stem is above the baseline, no information at all about the heights of the transom from any of the few given reference points and no information about station 0 which intersects the stem at some point. Like I said there is a lot of guesswork and scale rule work and figuring to be done to make these workable plans. I guess my only viable option is to use the scale rule and loft it as closely as I can and then fair the lines. I'm sure I'll figure it out, or, pick another plan. I think this is not a boat for a beginner. Thats what I hate about buying plans, though these said that all of the Atkin designs are suitable for beginners and that all of the needed info is there for said to build, I am sorry, but in this case I beg to differ. Mind you, I am not crying or bashing the Atkin company, I still much admire many, many of the designs to be found within.

              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, John Almberg <jalmberg@...> wrote:
              >
              > Using the scale rule for sanity checks is good, but you shouldn't need
              > it for lofting. All the measurements you need should be on the plans or
              > offset table. You just need to take it step by step. What have you done
              > so far? What are you stuck on, specifically?
              >
              > -- John
              >
              > Billy wrote:
              > >
              > > Already have a scale rule and used it to check things on the plans,
              > > which are drawn 1"=1' and the plans are really close, or, accurately
              > > scaled. I just can't measure things like 1/16th with it. This is just
              > > a "simple" flat bottom skiff but it is my first time trying to loft a
              > > design. All my others were S&G boats or kits. I'm sure I'm just
              > > missing something and that I'll figure it out.(?)
              > >
              > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
              > > <mailto:AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com>, davy riggs <titanicslim@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi, Billy
              > > > This may seem like a bunch of extra work but, trust me, it is not.
              > > You would do well to get an architect's scale and make a 1"=1' (or
              > > better, 3"=1') drawing before you do it full scale on the floor. I
              > > like to draw on smoothly finished aircraft plywood, then take it with
              > > me to the lofting floor for instant reference- much handier than a
              > > paper drawing.
              > > > You will find problems (and, yes, Mr. Atkin's mistakes) and fix them
              > > sitting comfortably at your desk where you can see the whole scheme
              > > without gymnastics. So by the time you begin the full-size lofting,
              > > you will have a good idea of what you are doing and save beaucoups
              > > headaches and knee-aches.
              > > > You may even, as I have done, find cause to alter course before you
              > > embark on a project you should not.
              > > > Dave
              > > >
              > > > Man proposes- God disposes. -U.S. Grant
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • davy riggs
              Billy Draw it small scale.  Carefully lay out the grid and go through the table of offsets, marking off each point on the appropriate station-, butt- or
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 27, 2011
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                Billy

                Draw it small scale.  Carefully lay out the "grid" and go through the table of offsets, marking off each point on the appropriate station-, butt- or waterline, as well as the dimensions (such as set-backs and heights for the stem and transom) noted on the drawing itself.    I'll wager the missing data will be made evident by the time you have finished.  Often a designer will not call out every dimension where you expect to see it, but they are in there, and you'll see them all clearly by the time you finish.

                Don't get frustrated, just take it one step at a time and you'll get there.

                Dave


                Man proposes- God disposes. -U.S. Grant
              • Billy
                Thats exactly what I am saying I ll have to do. Draw the whole thing and fill in the blanks, only I m going to do it full size. Yes, the info is in there but
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 28, 2011
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                  Thats exactly what I am saying I'll have to do. Draw the whole thing and fill in the blanks, only I'm going to do it full size. Yes, the info is in there but it is not written out as a numeric value. As far as not getting frustrated, well, I'm going to try not to but I will probably still at one point or another.

                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, davy riggs <titanicslim@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Billy
                  > Draw it small scale.  Carefully lay out the "grid" and go through the table of offsets, marking off each point on the appropriate station-, butt- or waterline, as well as the dimensions (such as set-backs and heights for the stem and transom) noted on the drawing itself.    I'll wager the missing data will be made evident by the time you have finished.  Often a designer will not call out every dimension where you expect to see it, but they are in there, and you'll see them all clearly by the time you finish.
                  > Don't get frustrated, just take it one step at a time and you'll get there.
                  > Dave
                  >
                  > Man proposes- God disposes. -U.S. Grant
                  >
                • John Almberg
                  Okay, so if you don t have the distance from baseline to LWL, then you are still working on the grid? There should be no guesswork, or scale rule work, but
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 28, 2011
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                    Okay, so if you don't have the distance from baseline to LWL, then you are still working on the grid? There should be no guesswork, or scale rule work, but definitely a lot of figuring. 

                    The distance from the baseline to the LWL (and the other waterlines) should be written on the profile plan, same as the distances between stations. If not on the profile, then on one of the other views. The numbers might be turned 90 degrees.

                    Atkin plans were made for beginners in an era where beginners were very familiar with wooden boats, and lots of people worked with their hands. It's more of a challenge for us.

                    - John

                    Sent from my iPad, so may be a bit brief.

                    On Apr 27, 2011, at 11:42 PM, Billy <billybronaugh@...> wrote:

                     

                    Oh, specifically, there are no offsets from the bottom of the boat to the sheerline to tell me the height of each station to make the molds, there is nothing telling me the distance from the baseline to the load waterline, there is no offset for the height of station 12, nothing telling me how high the bottom of the stem is above the baseline, no information at all about the heights of the transom from any of the few given reference points and no information about station 0 which intersects the stem at some point. Like I said there is a lot of guesswork and scale rule work and figuring to be done to make these workable plans. I guess my only viable option is to use the scale rule and loft it as closely as I can and then fair the lines. I'm sure I'll figure it out, or, pick another plan. I think this is not a boat for a beginner. Thats what I hate about buying plans, though these said that all of the Atkin designs are suitable for beginners and that all of the needed info is there for said to build, I am sorry, but in this case I beg to differ. Mind you, I am not crying or bashing the Atkin company, I still much admire many, many of the designs to be found within.

                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, John Almberg <jalmberg@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Using the scale rule for sanity checks is good, but you shouldn't need
                    > it for lofting. All the measurements you need should be on the plans or
                    > offset table. You just need to take it step by step. What have you done
                    > so far? What are you stuck on, specifically?
                    >
                    > -- John
                    >
                    > Billy wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Already have a scale rule and used it to check things on the plans,
                    > > which are drawn 1"=1' and the plans are really close, or, accurately
                    > > scaled. I just can't measure things like 1/16th with it. This is just
                    > > a "simple" flat bottom skiff but it is my first time trying to loft a
                    > > design. All my others were S&G boats or kits. I'm sure I'm just
                    > > missing something and that I'll figure it out.(?)
                    > >
                    > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                    > > <mailto:AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com>, davy riggs <titanicslim@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi, Billy
                    > > > This may seem like a bunch of extra work but, trust me, it is not.
                    > > You would do well to get an architect's scale and make a 1"=1' (or
                    > > better, 3"=1') drawing before you do it full scale on the floor. I
                    > > like to draw on smoothly finished aircraft plywood, then take it with
                    > > me to the lofting floor for instant reference- much handier than a
                    > > paper drawing.
                    > > > You will find problems (and, yes, Mr. Atkin's mistakes) and fix them
                    > > sitting comfortably at your desk where you can see the whole scheme
                    > > without gymnastics. So by the time you begin the full-size lofting,
                    > > you will have a good idea of what you are doing and save beaucoups
                    > > headaches and knee-aches.
                    > > > You may even, as I have done, find cause to alter course before you
                    > > embark on a project you should not.
                    > > > Dave
                    > > >
                    > > > Man proposes- God disposes. -U.S. Grant
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >

                  • John Kohnen
                    I think John Atkin wrote at least once that one should _never_ scale critical dimensions off a plan, only take them from the full-size faired lofting. It s the
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 28, 2011
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                      I think John Atkin wrote at least once that one should _never_ scale
                      critical dimensions off a plan, only take them from the full-size faired
                      lofting. It's the Truth, whoever wrote it. On the Atkin plans the height
                      of the bottom in the offset table is taken from the baseline, and the
                      height of the sheer is taken from the waterline. Those heights are in the
                      offset table, not on the profile drawing. The profile drawing will show
                      the height of the waterline above the baseline and the spacing of the
                      sections, and will have the dimensions you need to get the shape of the
                      face of the stem right. If there are NO dimensions shown on the profile
                      drawing maybe by mistake Mrs. Atkin sent you a copy of an early draft, not
                      the finished drawing... But I'll bet there's everything you need in the
                      plans, without having to use a scale rule. Just take it slow and easy and
                      everything will begin to make sense as you move along. Start with lofting
                      the profile, then the plan view, and finally the body plan, or sections.
                      Don't forget to deduct the plank thickness when you make your molds.

                      Alas, I can't find a good explanation of lofting on the Interweb. I
                      suppose I should put an old article online myself one of these days...
                      John A's story of lofting his Cabin Boy gives you an idea of what's
                      involved in lofting an Atkin skiff:

                      http://preview.tinyurl.com/3hgqtkr

                      The best book I've seen on the subject is Allan Vaitses's, and if you feel
                      totally lost maybe it'd be a good idea to sit back and wait for the book
                      to be delivered:

                      http://preview.tinyurl.com/6hsdce

                      Lofting is unfamiliar to many amateur boatbuilders today, but it's really
                      not that hard to learn, and not all that complicated for a simple skiff.
                      You'll get there, Billy. Good luck!

                      On Wed, 27 Apr 2011 20:42:08 -0700, Billy wrote:

                      > Oh, specifically, there are no offsets from the bottom of the boat to
                      > the sheerline to tell me the height of each station to make the molds,
                      > there is nothing telling me the distance from the baseline to the load
                      > waterline, there is no offset for the height of station 12, nothing
                      > telling me how high the bottom of the stem is above the baseline, no
                      > information at all about the heights of the transom from any of the few
                      > given reference points and no information about station 0 which
                      > intersects the stem at some point. Like I said there is a lot of
                      > guesswork and scale rule work and figuring to be done to make these
                      > workable plans. I guess my only viable option is to use the scale rule
                      > and loft it as closely as I can and then fair the lines....


                      --
                      John (jkohnen@...)
                      I get up every morning determined both to change the world and
                      to have one hell of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning
                      the day difficult. (E.B. White)
                    • Billy
                      Thanks John K. I will build this boat. The more I look at it the more I likes it. You re right, I just need to slow down a bit. I have built several boats
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 30, 2011
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                        Thanks John K. I will build this boat. The more I look at it the more I likes it. You're right, I just need to slow down a bit. I have built several boats before but there was no lofting involved.

                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I think John Atkin wrote at least once that one should _never_ scale
                        > critical dimensions off a plan, only take them from the full-size faired
                        > lofting. It's the Truth, whoever wrote it. On the Atkin plans the height
                        > of the bottom in the offset table is taken from the baseline, and the
                        > height of the sheer is taken from the waterline. Those heights are in the
                        > offset table, not on the profile drawing. The profile drawing will show
                        > the height of the waterline above the baseline and the spacing of the
                        > sections, and will have the dimensions you need to get the shape of the
                        > face of the stem right. If there are NO dimensions shown on the profile
                        > drawing maybe by mistake Mrs. Atkin sent you a copy of an early draft, not
                        > the finished drawing... But I'll bet there's everything you need in the
                        > plans, without having to use a scale rule. Just take it slow and easy and
                        > everything will begin to make sense as you move along. Start with lofting
                        > the profile, then the plan view, and finally the body plan, or sections.
                        > Don't forget to deduct the plank thickness when you make your molds.
                        >
                        > Alas, I can't find a good explanation of lofting on the Interweb. I
                        > suppose I should put an old article online myself one of these days...
                        > John A's story of lofting his Cabin Boy gives you an idea of what's
                        > involved in lofting an Atkin skiff:
                        >
                        > http://preview.tinyurl.com/3hgqtkr
                        >
                        > The best book I've seen on the subject is Allan Vaitses's, and if you feel
                        > totally lost maybe it'd be a good idea to sit back and wait for the book
                        > to be delivered:
                        >
                        > http://preview.tinyurl.com/6hsdce
                        >
                        > Lofting is unfamiliar to many amateur boatbuilders today, but it's really
                        > not that hard to learn, and not all that complicated for a simple skiff.
                        > You'll get there, Billy. Good luck!
                        >
                        > On Wed, 27 Apr 2011 20:42:08 -0700, Billy wrote:
                        >
                        > > Oh, specifically, there are no offsets from the bottom of the boat to
                        > > the sheerline to tell me the height of each station to make the molds,
                        > > there is nothing telling me the distance from the baseline to the load
                        > > waterline, there is no offset for the height of station 12, nothing
                        > > telling me how high the bottom of the stem is above the baseline, no
                        > > information at all about the heights of the transom from any of the few
                        > > given reference points and no information about station 0 which
                        > > intersects the stem at some point. Like I said there is a lot of
                        > > guesswork and scale rule work and figuring to be done to make these
                        > > workable plans. I guess my only viable option is to use the scale rule
                        > > and loft it as closely as I can and then fair the lines....
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > John (jkohnen@...)
                        > I get up every morning determined both to change the world and
                        > to have one hell of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning
                        > the day difficult. (E.B. White)
                        >
                      • davy riggs
                        ... and don t forget Howard Chapelle s Boatbuilding.  It s section on lofting has taught generations of boatbuilders, myself included, and is still, I think,
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 30, 2011
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                          ... and don't forget Howard Chapelle's Boatbuilding.  It's section on lofting has taught generations of boatbuilders, myself included, and is still, I think, the text most used by schools and apprenticeships.  This fact ensures that a good supply of barely used copies of this text are always available from ebay, Amazon and other online booksellers.  I refer to mine often.

                          Dave


                          Man proposes- God disposes. -U.S. Grant
                        • John Kohnen
                          Good man! :o) I think you ll find that lofting the boat will teach you something about how will go together, and the full size drawing will easily supply you
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 30, 2011
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                            Good man! :o) I think you'll find that lofting the boat will teach you
                            something about how will go together, and the full size drawing will
                            easily supply you with the shapes and bevels of various parts of the boat.
                            If you have any questions feel free to ask me, either here or privately.

                            Just out of curiosity, what attracted you to Elon Jessup more than the
                            other Atkin outboard skiffs?

                            On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 15:55:35 -0700, Billy wrote:

                            > Thanks John K. I will build this boat. The more I look at it the more I
                            > likes it. You're right, I just need to slow down a bit. I have built
                            > several boats before but there was no lofting involved.

                            --
                            John (jkohnen@...)
                            Nobody ought to wear a Greek fisherman's hat unless they meet
                            two conditions: 1. He is a Greek; 2. He is a Fisherman (Roy
                            Blount Jr.)
                          • Billy
                            Slim, I actually have a copy of that book but it is a 1st edition and it looks as though it ll disentegrate every time I touch it so, I never do. Perhaps I
                            Message 13 of 25 , May 1 4:05 AM
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                              Slim, I actually have a copy of that book but it is a 1st edition and it looks as though it'll disentegrate every time I touch it so, I never do. Perhaps I should buy one to use. I know, I know.

                              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, davy riggs <titanicslim@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > ... and don't forget Howard Chapelle's Boatbuilding.  It's section on lofting has taught generations of boatbuilders, myself included, and is still, I think, the text most used by schools and apprenticeships.  This fact ensures that a good supply of barely used copies of this text are always available from ebay, Amazon and other online booksellers.  I refer to mine often.
                              > Dave
                              >
                              > Man proposes- God disposes. -U.S. Grant
                              >
                            • Billy
                              First off, I really like how he drew the sheerline, and, I love the great flare up front in the topsides combined with the narrow bottom forward and I ll bet
                              Message 14 of 25 , May 1 4:36 AM
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                                First off, I really like how he drew the sheerline, and, I love the great flare up front in the topsides combined with the narrow bottom forward and I'll bet that it'll be a husky looking skiff when finished. I like the sternsheets too, looks classy. Good size and decent speed potential. I don't like the sheerline on Punch plus it doesn't have that nice, flare up front. Sprite was a close second but I was afraid it wouldn't fit the bill ( and his family ;) ). I love to take my dog with me on the water too, so wanted a little extra room. Other, intangable things too. You know how a boat just reaches out and grabs you. Thats the reason for so many different designs I guess. I just think it's a real nice looking skiff overall. I can't really find anything about it that I don't like. Oh you know if I had the room and money it would have been Haven all the way. Might take me the remainder of my life but man, thats a great design, love that boat.
                                Thanks for the encouragement and offer of help, I'm sure I'll need it at some point.



                                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Good man! :o) I think you'll find that lofting the boat will teach you
                                > something about how will go together, and the full size drawing will
                                > easily supply you with the shapes and bevels of various parts of the boat.
                                > If you have any questions feel free to ask me, either here or privately.
                                >
                                > Just out of curiosity, what attracted you to Elon Jessup more than the
                                > other Atkin outboard skiffs?
                                >
                                > On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 15:55:35 -0700, Billy wrote:
                                >
                                > > Thanks John K. I will build this boat. The more I look at it the more I
                                > > likes it. You're right, I just need to slow down a bit. I have built
                                > > several boats before but there was no lofting involved.
                                >
                                > --
                                > John (jkohnen@...)
                                > Nobody ought to wear a Greek fisherman's hat unless they meet
                                > two conditions: 1. He is a Greek; 2. He is a Fisherman (Roy
                                > Blount Jr.)
                                >
                              • Billy
                                OK, there is one thing that does sort of jump out at me when I look at EJ, the frames. I don t like (but don t hate either) the way the frames are
                                Message 15 of 25 , May 1 4:54 AM
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                                  OK, there is one thing that does sort of jump out at me when I look at EJ, the frames. I don't like (but don't hate either) the way the frames are perpendicular to the sides rather than perpendicular to the centerline of the hull. Can this be changed? Could I bevel the frames to orient them perpendicular to the centerline? I know, I haven't even gotten past the lofting yet and am wanting to change something but just had to ask. My previous post made me think of that. Are there any structural issues to consider with this proposed change? I'm not even saying I will do it, only wondering if I could should I choose to.

                                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Billy" <billybronaugh@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > First off, I really like how he drew the sheerline, and, I love the great flare up front in the topsides combined with the narrow bottom forward and I'll bet that it'll be a husky looking skiff when finished. I like the sternsheets too, looks classy. Good size and decent speed potential. I don't like the sheerline on Punch plus it doesn't have that nice, flare up front. Sprite was a close second but I was afraid it wouldn't fit the bill ( and his family ;) ). I love to take my dog with me on the water too, so wanted a little extra room. Other, intangable things too. You know how a boat just reaches out and grabs you. Thats the reason for so many different designs I guess. I just think it's a real nice looking skiff overall. I can't really find anything about it that I don't like. Oh you know if I had the room and money it would have been Haven all the way. Might take me the remainder of my life but man, thats a great design, love that boat.
                                  > Thanks for the encouragement and offer of help, I'm sure I'll need it at some point.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Good man! :o) I think you'll find that lofting the boat will teach you
                                  > > something about how will go together, and the full size drawing will
                                  > > easily supply you with the shapes and bevels of various parts of the boat.
                                  > > If you have any questions feel free to ask me, either here or privately.
                                  > >
                                  > > Just out of curiosity, what attracted you to Elon Jessup more than the
                                  > > other Atkin outboard skiffs?
                                  > >
                                  > > On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 15:55:35 -0700, Billy wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > Thanks John K. I will build this boat. The more I look at it the more I
                                  > > > likes it. You're right, I just need to slow down a bit. I have built
                                  > > > several boats before but there was no lofting involved.
                                  > >
                                  > > --
                                  > > John (jkohnen@)
                                  > > Nobody ought to wear a Greek fisherman's hat unless they meet
                                  > > two conditions: 1. He is a Greek; 2. He is a Fisherman (Roy
                                  > > Blount Jr.)
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Tom
                                  What I found strange was that this boat was not in an Ideal series book. I have several and was going to see if I had the plans in a book but it isn t listed
                                  Message 16 of 25 , May 24 6:23 AM
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                                    What I found strange was that this boat was not in an Ideal series book.

                                    I have several and was going to see if I had the plans in a book but it isn't listed online here:

                                    http://www.boat-links.com/Ideal/Names.html

                                    .....................calfee
                                  • Oscar Lind
                                    I just joined the group and I don t know what design you are referring to. Which is it? I might be able to shed a tiny ray of light, who knows. Oscar From: Tom
                                    Message 17 of 25 , May 24 7:35 AM
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                                      I just joined the group and I don't know what design you are referring to. Which is it? I might be able to shed a tiny ray of light, who knows.
                                      Oscar

                                      From: Tom <calfee20@...>
                                      To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 6:23 AM
                                      Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Help with offsets

                                       

                                      What I found strange was that this boat was not in an Ideal series book.

                                      I have several and was going to see if I had the plans in a book but it isn't listed online here:

                                      http://www.boat-links.com/Ideal/Names.html

                                      .....................calfee



                                    • John Kohnen
                                      It s Elon Jessup: http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Oar/ElonJessup.html Elon Jessup was designed after the Atkins had stopped working for MoToR BoatinG. Can
                                      Message 18 of 25 , May 24 3:53 PM
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                                        It's Elon Jessup:

                                        http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Oar/ElonJessup.html

                                        Elon Jessup was designed after the Atkins had stopped working for MoToR
                                        BoatinG. Can you give me the date and plan number, Billy? Elon Jessup was
                                        published in Practical Small Boat Designs in 1983.

                                        The two Atkins reportedly designed over 900 boats in their lifetimes (the
                                        numbers stop at 876 -- Sunshine, but there may have been some designs that
                                        didn't get a number for one reason or another, 876 is a lot of boats
                                        anyway! <g>). A lot of the designs were for MoToR BoatinG, but a lot
                                        weren't. The current Atkin Catalog lists somewhere around 300 designs,
                                        IIRC.

                                        On Tue, 24 May 2011 07:35:49 -0700, Oscar wrote:

                                        > I just joined the group and I don't know what design you are referring
                                        > to. Which is it? I might be able to shed a tiny ray of light, who knows.

                                        > From: Tom <calfee20@...>
                                        > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 6:23 AM
                                        > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Help with offsets
                                        >
                                        > What I found strange was that this boat was not in an Ideal series book.
                                        >
                                        > I have several and was going to see if I had the plans in a book but it
                                        > isn't listed online here:
                                        >
                                        > http://www.boat-links.com/Ideal/Names.html

                                        --
                                        John (jkohnen@...)
                                        One must have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell
                                        by Dickens without laughing. (Oscar Wilde)
                                      • Oscar Lind
                                        that design is one that John Atkin did and is in Practical Small Boat Designs avail from Pat Atkin or from an amazing fellow in Seattle doing business at
                                        Message 19 of 25 , May 24 4:56 PM
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                                          that design is one that John Atkin did and is in Practical Small Boat Designs avail from Pat Atkin or from an amazing fellow in Seattle doing business at www.SeaOceanBooks.com 206-675-9020.
                                          Nice, nice design, by the way. Don't you have good taste.
                                          Oscar

                                          From: John Kohnen <jkohnen@...>
                                          To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 3:53 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [AtkinBoats] Re: Help with offsets

                                          It's Elon Jessup:

                                          http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Oar/ElonJessup.html

                                          Elon Jessup was designed after the Atkins had stopped working for MoToR 
                                          BoatinG. Can you give me the date and plan number, Billy? Elon Jessup was 
                                          published in Practical Small Boat Designs in 1983.

                                          The two Atkins reportedly designed over 900 boats in their lifetimes (the 
                                          numbers stop at 876 -- Sunshine, but there may have been some designs that 
                                          didn't get a number for one reason or another, 876 is a lot of boats 
                                          anyway! <g>). A lot of the designs were for MoToR BoatinG, but a lot 
                                          weren't. The current Atkin Catalog lists somewhere around 300 designs, 
                                          IIRC.

                                          On Tue, 24 May 2011 07:35:49 -0700, Oscar wrote:

                                          > I just joined the group and I don't know what design you are referring 
                                          > to. Which is it? I might be able to shed a tiny ray of light, who knows.

                                          > From: Tom <calfee20@...>
                                          > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 6:23 AM
                                          > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Help with offsets
                                          >
                                          > What I found strange was that this boat was not in an Ideal series book.
                                          >
                                          > I have several and was going to see if I had the plans in a book but it 
                                          > isn't listed online here:
                                          >
                                          > http://www.boat-links.com/Ideal/Names.html

                                          --
                                          John (jkohnen@...)
                                          One must have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell
                                          by Dickens without laughing. (Oscar Wilde)


                                          ------------------------------------

                                          No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery. Please be polite.

                                          If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the resulting boat.

                                          The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
                                          <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>

                                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/

                                          <*> Your email settings:
                                              Individual Email | Traditional

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                                              AtkinBoats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                          <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                                        • George C
                                          John, Of course, I had to use your link to look at ElonJessup. And as always, had to look at many other Aktin design and then looked at the photo section. Any
                                          Message 20 of 25 , May 25 3:15 PM
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                                            John,

                                            Of course, I had to use your link to look at ElonJessup. And as always, had to look at many other Aktin design and then looked at the photo section. Any link to Atkinco give me an easy excuse to browse around. Anyway, in the photo section a particular boat caught my attention called the Snapdragon. It's a beautiful work boat with a tumblehome stern. Unfortunately, plans aren't available and there's little detail.

                                            Would you know much about it; specs, propose, plan in the future, any other publication is might be in?

                                            Thanks in advance,

                                            George


                                            From: John Kohnen <jkohnen@...>
                                            To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 3:53:01 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [AtkinBoats] Re: Help with offsets

                                            It's Elon Jessup:

                                            http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Oar/ElonJessup.html

                                            Elon Jessup was designed after the Atkins had stopped working for MoToR 
                                            BoatinG. Can you give me the date and plan number, Billy? Elon Jessup was 
                                            published in Practical Small Boat Designs in 1983.

                                            The two Atkins reportedly designed over 900 boats in their lifetimes (the 
                                            numbers stop at 876 -- Sunshine, but there may have been some designs that 
                                            didn't get a number for one reason or another, 876 is a lot of boats 
                                            anyway! <g>). A lot of the designs were for MoToR BoatinG, but a lot 
                                            weren't. The current Atkin Catalog lists somewhere around 300 designs, 
                                            IIRC.

                                            On Tue, 24 May 2011 07:35:49 -0700, Oscar wrote:

                                            > I just joined the group and I don't know what design you are referring 
                                            > to. Which is it? I might be able to shed a tiny ray of light, who knows.

                                            > From: Tom <calfee20@...>
                                            > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 6:23 AM
                                            > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Help with offsets
                                            >
                                            > What I found strange was that this boat was not in an Ideal series book.
                                            >
                                            > I have several and was going to see if I had the plans in a book but it 
                                            > isn't listed online here:
                                            >
                                            > http://www.boat-links.com/Ideal/Names.html

                                            --
                                            John (jkohnen@...)
                                            One must have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell
                                            by Dickens without laughing. (Oscar Wilde)


                                            ------------------------------------

                                            No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery. Please be polite.

                                            If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the resulting boat.

                                            The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
                                            <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>

                                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                                            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/

                                            <*> Your email settings:
                                                Individual Email | Traditional

                                            <*> To change settings online go to:
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/join
                                                (Yahoo! ID required)

                                            <*> To change settings via email:
                                                AtkinBoats-digest@yahoogroups.com
                                                AtkinBoats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                                            <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                AtkinBoats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                                          • John Kohnen
                                            Snapdragon seems to be one of the plans that got lost when Hearst Publishing stuffed the Atkin plans they held into black plastic garbage bags and dumped them
                                            Message 21 of 25 , May 25 4:15 PM
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                                              Snapdragon seems to be one of the plans that got lost when Hearst
                                              Publishing stuffed the Atkin plans they held into black plastic garbage
                                              bags and dumped them in their lobby for John A to pick up, after he
                                              succeeded in his long fight to get the ownership of the plans back. :o( So
                                              there's little chance that plans for her will ever be available.
                                              Snapdragon was published in MoToR BoatinG and appears in volumes 17 and 46
                                              of the Ideal Series. She's 32' 4" long by 9' 4" beam, draws 2' 7". 70 hp.
                                              should be good for 18 mph. A nice boat.

                                              On Wed, 25 May 2011 15:15:31 -0700, George C wrote:

                                              > John,
                                              >
                                              > Of course, I had to use your link to look at ElonJessup. And as always,
                                              > had to
                                              > look at many other Aktin design and then looked at the photo section.
                                              > Any link
                                              > to Atkinco give me an easy excuse to browse around. Anyway, in the photo
                                              > section
                                              > a particular boat caught my attention called the Snapdragon. It's a
                                              > beautiful
                                              > work boat with a tumblehome stern. Unfortunately, plans aren't available
                                              > and
                                              > there's little detail.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Would you know much about it; specs, propose, plan in the future, any
                                              > other
                                              > publication is might be in?

                                              --
                                              John (jkohnen@...)
                                              There is a custom, amounting almost to tradition, that true boat
                                              speeds are obscene and must never be mentioned except in a
                                              highly dressed up state. (Lindsay Lord)
                                            • George C
                                              John, I didn t know there was a battle between John A and Hearst. You re a wealth of information, and yes, a very nice boat. Thanks, George
                                              Message 22 of 25 , May 25 4:30 PM
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                                                John,

                                                I didn't know there was a battle between John A and Hearst.
                                                You're a wealth of information, and yes, a very nice boat.

                                                Thanks,

                                                George


                                                From: John Kohnen <jkohnen@...>
                                                To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Wed, May 25, 2011 4:15:11 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [AtkinBoats] Re: Help with offsets

                                                Snapdragon seems to be one of the plans that got lost when Hearst 
                                                Publishing stuffed the Atkin plans they held into black plastic garbage 
                                                bags and dumped them in their lobby for John A to pick up, after he 
                                                succeeded in his long fight to get the ownership of the plans back. :o( So 
                                                there's little chance that plans for her will ever be available. 
                                                Snapdragon was published in MoToR BoatinG and appears in volumes 17 and 46 
                                                of the Ideal Series. She's 32' 4" long by 9' 4" beam, draws 2' 7". 70 hp. 
                                                should be good for 18 mph. A nice boat.

                                                On Wed, 25 May 2011 15:15:31 -0700, George C wrote:

                                                > John,
                                                >
                                                > Of course, I had to use your link to look at ElonJessup. And as always, 
                                                > had to
                                                > look at many other Aktin design and then looked at the photo section. 
                                                > Any link
                                                > to Atkinco give me an easy excuse to browse around. Anyway, in the photo 
                                                > section
                                                > a particular boat caught my attention called the Snapdragon. It's a 
                                                > beautiful
                                                > work boat with a tumblehome stern. Unfortunately, plans aren't available 
                                                > and
                                                > there's little detail.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Would you know much about it; specs, propose, plan in the future, any 
                                                > other
                                                > publication is might be in?

                                                --
                                                John (jkohnen@...)
                                                There is a custom, amounting almost to tradition, that true boat
                                                speeds are obscene and must never be mentioned except in a
                                                highly dressed up state. (Lindsay Lord)


                                                ------------------------------------

                                                No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery. Please be polite.

                                                If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the resulting boat.

                                                The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
                                                <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>

                                                Yahoo! Groups Links

                                                <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/

                                                <*> Your email settings:
                                                    Individual Email | Traditional

                                                <*> To change settings online go to:
                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/join
                                                    (Yahoo! ID required)

                                                <*> To change settings via email:
                                                    AtkinBoats-digest@yahoogroups.com
                                                    AtkinBoats-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                                                <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                    AtkinBoats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                                <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                                              • Billy
                                                I believe it is design number 865, May 1 1971. Fourty years later I start building one. Yes I do have good taste, you should see my wife. :) I hope she reads
                                                Message 23 of 25 , May 27 5:20 AM
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                                                  I believe it is design number 865, May 1 1971. Fourty years later I start building one. Yes I do have good taste, you should see my wife. :) I hope she reads this. :)

                                                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Oscar Lind <oscarlind50@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > that design is one that John Atkin did and is in Practical Small Boat Designs avail from Pat Atkin or from an amazing fellow in Seattle doing business at www.SeaOceanBooks.com 206-675-9020.
                                                  > Nice, nice design, by the way. Don't you have good taste.
                                                  > Oscar
                                                  >
                                                  > From: John Kohnen <jkohnen@...>
                                                  > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 3:53 PM
                                                  > Subject: Re: [AtkinBoats] Re: Help with offsets
                                                  >
                                                  > It's Elon Jessup:
                                                  >
                                                  > http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Oar/ElonJessup.html
                                                  >
                                                  > Elon Jessup was designed after the Atkins had stopped working for MoToR 
                                                  > BoatinG. Can you give me the date and plan number, Billy? Elon Jessup was 
                                                  > published in Practical Small Boat Designs in 1983.
                                                  >
                                                  > The two Atkins reportedly designed over 900 boats in their lifetimes (the 
                                                  > numbers stop at 876 -- Sunshine, but there may have been some designs that 
                                                  > didn't get a number for one reason or another, 876 is a lot of boats 
                                                  > anyway! <g>). A lot of the designs were for MoToR BoatinG, but a lot 
                                                  > weren't. The current Atkin Catalog lists somewhere around 300 designs, 
                                                  > IIRC.
                                                  >
                                                  > On Tue, 24 May 2011 07:35:49 -0700, Oscar wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > I just joined the group and I don't know what design you are referring 
                                                  > > to. Which is it? I might be able to shed a tiny ray of light, who knows.
                                                  >
                                                  > > From: Tom <calfee20@...>
                                                  > > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 6:23 AM
                                                  > > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Help with offsets
                                                  > >
                                                  > > What I found strange was that this boat was not in an Ideal series book.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I have several and was going to see if I had the plans in a book but it 
                                                  > > isn't listed online here:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > http://www.boat-links.com/Ideal/Names.html
                                                  >
                                                  > --
                                                  > John (jkohnen@...)
                                                  > One must have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell
                                                  > by Dickens without laughing. (Oscar Wilde)
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ------------------------------------
                                                  >
                                                  > No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery. Please be polite.
                                                  >
                                                  > If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the resulting boat.
                                                  >
                                                  > The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
                                                  > <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                  >
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