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Just indulge me please

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  • Billy
    A question from the uneducated. OK, I don t get it. Why, if boats designed for inboard and outboard power are different and you can t use an outboard power in
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 22, 2011
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      A question from the uneducated. OK, I don't get it. Why, if boats designed for inboard and outboard power are different and you can't use an outboard power in a boat designed for an inboard and vise versa, are the lines for walter piel and sixteen too exactle the same? In fact there are several others in the utilities catagory that are similar to walter piel yet all the others are for inboard power.
      Due to my budget, I simply can not afford an inboard system(already have outboards). Plus, I know little to nothing about them (easily fixable unlike my budget). There are so many of the Atkin designs that, like everyone else here, I absolutely love, several that I feel like I have the skill to build, if only I could use an outboard engine. Don't worry, I wouldn't, but don't think I have not been tempted. Tom Davin comes immediately to mind. Pollard 19, Haven would be at the top of the list, Mitty Ann, Ketewomok and hearts desire, just to name a few.
      Anyway, just curious. Hope you guys don't mind answering this type of question. Thanks
    • Stephen Paul
      Ninigret is 22 and designed for an outboard. There has been some discussion of it on this board, so simply search for Ninigret and you ll find links, etc.
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 26, 2011
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        Ninigret is 22' and designed for an outboard.  There has been some discussion of it on this board, so simply search for Ninigret and you'll find links, etc.

        Steve

        Steve Paul

        206-683-2961

        Notes From the Job Search

        www.linkedin.com/in/StephenMPaul

         




         

        To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
        From: billybronaugh@...
        Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 05:12:00 +0000
        Subject: [AtkinBoats] Just indulge me please

         
        A question from the uneducated. OK, I don't get it. Why, if boats designed for inboard and outboard power are different and you can't use an outboard power in a boat designed for an inboard and vise versa, are the lines for walter piel and sixteen too exactle the same? In fact there are several others in the utilities catagory that are similar to walter piel yet all the others are for inboard power.
        Due to my budget, I simply can not afford an inboard system(already have outboards). Plus, I know little to nothing about them (easily fixable unlike my budget). There are so many of the Atkin designs that, like everyone else here, I absolutely love, several that I feel like I have the skill to build, if only I could use an outboard engine. Don't worry, I wouldn't, but don't think I have not been tempted. Tom Davin comes immediately to mind. Pollard 19, Haven would be at the top of the list, Mitty Ann, Ketewomok and hearts desire, just to name a few.
        Anyway, just curious. Hope you guys don't mind answering this type of question. Thanks


      • Billy
        I was just wondering why boats with the exact hull lines could take either power though you always hear not to use other than what is specified in the plans
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 29, 2011
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          I was just wondering why boats with the exact hull lines could take either power though you always hear not to use other than what is specified in the plans for power. I know that there are some hulls that are just out of the question for one or the other but some look like they could go either way. I don't have plans to build any of the boats mentioned, I was just interested in a little education, or at least opinions is all, hence the title, just indlge me. Thanks though.

          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Paul <spaul539@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Ninigret is 22' and designed for an outboard. There has been some discussion of it on this board, so simply search for Ninigret and you'll find links, etc.
          >
          >
          > Steve
          > Steve Paul
          > 206-683-2961
          > Notes From the Job Search
          > www.linkedin.com/in/StephenMPaul
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
          > From: billybronaugh@...
          > Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 05:12:00 +0000
          > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Just indulge me please
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > A question from the uneducated. OK, I don't get it. Why, if boats designed for inboard and outboard power are different and you can't use an outboard power in a boat designed for an inboard and vise versa, are the lines for walter piel and sixteen too exactle the same? In fact there are several others in the utilities catagory that are similar to walter piel yet all the others are for inboard power.
          > Due to my budget, I simply can not afford an inboard system(already have outboards). Plus, I know little to nothing about them (easily fixable unlike my budget). There are so many of the Atkin designs that, like everyone else here, I absolutely love, several that I feel like I have the skill to build, if only I could use an outboard engine. Don't worry, I wouldn't, but don't think I have not been tempted. Tom Davin comes immediately to mind. Pollard 19, Haven would be at the top of the list, Mitty Ann, Ketewomok and hearts desire, just to name a few.
          > Anyway, just curious. Hope you guys don't mind answering this type of question. Thanks
          >
        • JohnA
          I m not a boat designer, but one problem with changing from an inboard to an outboard would be weight distribution. Using Tom Davin as an example, the
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 29, 2011
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            I'm not a boat designer, but one problem with changing from an inboard to an outboard would be weight distribution.

            Using "Tom Davin" as an example, the engine, engine box, shaft, fuel, controls, etc. probably account for 500 lbs low down in the center of the boat, providing a lot of stability.

            Now you remove that weight and add a 100 lb outboard to the stern of the boat.

            You can see that's a big difference that would have a significant impact on the boat's performance.

            -- John
          • Stephen Paul
            I m not a designer either, and my guess is pretty much the same as what you observed. Using Ninigret as an example though, I m not sure it follows. Ninigret
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 30, 2011
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              I'm not a designer either, and my guess is pretty much the same as what you observed.  Using Ninigret as an example though, I'm not sure it follows.  Ninigret uses an engine box for an outboard about 3' from the stern and specifies an engine of 25 to 65 horses.  So that gives us a weight of 250 to 350 lbs (approximately) plus an 18 gallon gas tank centered under the helm for an additional 120(+/-) lbs.  At this point our weight and weight location are much more comparable.  Does the logic still apply?  Do we start getting into issues with the center of gravity?  Do we have issues with the center of effort? What might the consequences be to stablity?

              Steve

              Steve Paul

              206-683-2961

              Notes From the Job Search

              www.linkedin.com/in/StephenMPaul

               




               

              To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
              From: jalmberg@...
              Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 12:47:00 +0000
              Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Just indulge me please

               
              I'm not a boat designer, but one problem with changing from an inboard to an outboard would be weight distribution.

              Using "Tom Davin" as an example, the engine, engine box, shaft, fuel, controls, etc. probably account for 500 lbs low down in the center of the boat, providing a lot of stability.

              Now you remove that weight and add a 100 lb outboard to the stern of the boat.

              You can see that's a big difference that would have a significant impact on the boat's performance.

              -- John


            • John Almberg
              I m not sure I understand the question. Are you asking about moving an outboard from Ninigret s well to the transom? I doubt it would have much impact on
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 30, 2011
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                I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking about moving an outboard from Ninigret's well to the transom? I doubt it would have much impact on performance (nothing that couldn't be cured with some ballast), but it sure would kill the boat's look and probably destroy the resale value if the boat was built without the outboard well.

                -- John

                Stephen Paul wrote:
                 

                I'm not a designer either, and my guess is pretty much the same as what you observed.  Using Ninigret as an example though, I'm not sure it follows.  Ninigret uses an engine box for an outboard about 3' from the stern and specifies an engine of 25 to 65 horses.  So that gives us a weight of 250 to 350 lbs (approximately) plus an 18 gallon gas tank centered under the helm for an additional 120(+/-) lbs.  At this point our weight and weight location are much more comparable.  Does the logic still apply?  Do we start getting into issues with the center of gravity?  Do we have issues with the center of effort? What might the consequences be to stablity?


              • Stephen Paul
                My question is, Is it advisable to replace the outboard with an inboard on this boat? Steve Steve Paul 206-683-2961 Notes From the Job Search
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 30, 2011
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                  My question is, "Is it advisable to replace the outboard with an inboard on this boat?"

                  Steve

                  Steve Paul

                  206-683-2961

                  Notes From the Job Search

                  www.linkedin.com/in/StephenMPaul

                   




                   

                  To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                  From: jalmberg@...
                  Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:27:09 -0400
                  Subject: Re: [AtkinBoats] Re: Just indulge me please

                   
                  I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking about moving an outboard from Ninigret's well to the transom? I doubt it would have much impact on performance (nothing that couldn't be cured with some ballast), but it sure would kill the boat's look and probably destroy the resale value if the boat was built without the outboard well.

                  -- John

                  Stephen Paul wrote:
                   

                  I'm not a designer either, and my guess is pretty much the same as what you observed.  Using Ninigret as an example though, I'm not sure it follows.  Ninigret uses an engine box for an outboard about 3' from the stern and specifies an engine of 25 to 65 horses.  So that gives us a weight of 250 to 350 lbs (approximately) plus an 18 gallon gas tank centered under the helm for an additional 120(+/-) lbs.  At this point our weight and weight location are much more comparable.  Does the logic still apply?  Do we start getting into issues with the center of gravity?  Do we have issues with the center of effort? What might the consequences be to stablity?



                • John Almberg
                  Advisable? I doubt it. I don t see where an inboard would fit. Certainly not in the stern. The prop would be out of the water, or at a crazy angle. I guess it
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 30, 2011
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                    Advisable? I doubt it. I don't see where an inboard would fit. Certainly not in the stern. The prop would be out of the water, or at a crazy angle. I guess it might be possible to mount it some place way up front, but it would be advisable to find a different boat that fit your needs better.

                    Stephen Paul wrote:
                     

                    My question is, "Is it advisable to replace the outboard with an inboard on this boat?"


                  • Billy
                    What I was asking was why are walter piel and sixteen too lines exactly the same yet one is for an inboard and one is for an outboard engine???????? I wouldn t
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 31, 2011
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                      What I was asking was why are walter piel and sixteen too lines exactly the same yet one is for an inboard and one is for an outboard engine???????? I wouldn't build one of my dreamboats without using the specified engine either. I just wanted to know why the lines of the aforementioned boats exactly ( designers words, not mine ) yet one is for an outboard and one for inboard power.

                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Billy" <billybronaugh@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > A question from the uneducated. OK, I don't get it. Why, if boats designed for inboard and outboard power are different and you can't use an outboard power in a boat designed for an inboard and vise versa, are the lines for walter piel and sixteen too exactle the same? In fact there are several others in the utilities catagory that are similar to walter piel yet all the others are for inboard power.
                      > Due to my budget, I simply can not afford an inboard system(already have outboards). Plus, I know little to nothing about them (easily fixable unlike my budget). There are so many of the Atkin designs that, like everyone else here, I absolutely love, several that I feel like I have the skill to build, if only I could use an outboard engine. Don't worry, I wouldn't, but don't think I have not been tempted. Tom Davin comes immediately to mind. Pollard 19, Haven would be at the top of the list, Mitty Ann, Ketewomok and hearts desire, just to name a few.
                      > Anyway, just curious. Hope you guys don't mind answering this type of question. Thanks
                      >
                    • John Almberg
                      Ah. I think I finally understand your question. Sorry... I should have read all the emails. Again, I m not a boat designer, but here s my best understanding...
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 1, 2011
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                        Ah. I think I finally understand your question. Sorry... I should have read all the emails.

                        Again, I'm not a boat designer, but here's my best understanding...

                        Motor boats need different lines from, say, rowing boats, because for some reason -- which I don't really understand -- motor boats like to drag a bit of transom, whereas with a rowing boat or sail boat, you want the transom out of the water. There are other differences that have to do with the possibility that a motor boat can plane, but you get the idea.

                        However, a motor boat is a motor boat, whether the motor is inboard or outboard, which is why the lines of Walter Piel and Sixteen Too can be the same.

                        Then the question is, is there physical room to mount an outboard or inboard? Look at where Sixteen Too's inboard is mounted. Way up front so the prop doesn't emerge with too much angle.

                        Finally, weight distribution... Assuming that the inboard weighs a lot more than the outboard, putting the inboard in the center of the boat is 'neutral' to the lines. I.e., it doesn't weigh down the bow or stern. The weight of the outboard is probably negligible compared to the rest of the boat + passengers + gear, so has little effect on trim.

                        Hope this helps.

                        -- John


                        Billy wrote:
                         

                        What I was asking was why are walter piel and sixteen too lines exactly the same yet one is for an inboard and one is for an outboard engine???????? I wouldn't build one of my dreamboats without using the specified engine either. I just wanted to know why the lines of the aforementioned boats exactly ( designers words, not mine ) yet one is for an outboard and one for inboard power.

                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Billy" <billybronaugh@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > A question from the uneducated. OK, I don't get it. Why, if boats designed for inboard and outboard power are different and you can't use an outboard power in a boat designed for an inboard and vise versa, are the lines for walter piel and sixteen too exactle the same? In fact there are several others in the utilities catagory that are similar to walter piel yet all the others are for inboard power.
                        > Due to my budget, I simply can not afford an inboard system(already have outboards). Plus, I know little to nothing about them (easily fixable unlike my budget). There are so many of the Atkin designs that, like everyone else here, I absolutely love, several that I feel like I have the skill to build, if only I could use an outboard engine. Don't worry, I wouldn't, but don't think I have not been tempted. Tom Davin comes immediately to mind. Pollard 19, Haven would be at the top of the list, Mitty Ann, Ketewomok and hearts desire, just to name a few.
                        > Anyway, just curious. Hope you guys don't mind answering this type of question. Thanks
                        >


                      • JohnA
                        ... Wow! Thanks for calling my attention to the Ketewomoke. I am actually a member of the Ketewomoke YC. I knew I lived in the same town that William Atkin got
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 1, 2011
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                          > > like I have the skill to build, if only I could use an outboard
                          > > engine. Don't worry, I wouldn't, but don't think I have not been
                          > > tempted. Tom Davin comes immediately to mind. Pollard 19, Haven would
                          > > be at the top of the list, Mitty Ann, Ketewomok and hearts desire,
                          > > just to name a few.

                          Wow! Thanks for calling my attention to the Ketewomoke. I am actually a member of the Ketewomoke YC. I knew I lived in the same town that William Atkin got his start, but didn't realized I belonged to the same yacht club. Cool!

                          "Several hundred years ago the site of the town of Huntington, L. I., N. Y., and its surrounding waters was named by the Indians, Ketewomoke. The Indian name was chosen by the yacht club at Halesite, of which, by the way, I was a charter member. The club was formed in 1913; that is a long time ago. As a token of respect for that friendly organization, the latest member of MoToR BoatingG's family of practical boats bears the name Ketewomoke."

                          http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Utilities/Ketewomoke.html
                        • davy riggs
                          John has the idea.  Whether hanging on the transom or nestled amidships, it really doesn t matter where the 50# motor goes.   Were we talking about 150hp
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 1, 2011
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                            John has the idea.  Whether hanging on the transom or nestled amidships, it really doesn't matter where the 50# motor goes.   Were we talking about 150hp motors and their ancillary liquids and solids, it could then be a big deal and we would need to make adjustments to the weight-bearing capacity of the installation.   But when you have one or two 200-pounders in a sixteen-foot boat, fighting fish, fetching beer etc., placement of the engine is not the deciding factor.



                            Dave


                            Man proposes- God disposes. -U.S. Grant
                          • Billy
                            As, I am sure, everyone can also tell, I am no designer either. I peruse the atkin site about 10 times a day, just looking and, though it s neither here nor
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 2, 2011
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                              As, I am sure, everyone can also tell, I am no designer either. I peruse the atkin site about 10 times a day, just looking and, though it's neither here nor there, hence the title of the thread, it was just curious to me as to why those two were the same yet specified different types of power.
                              I appreciate the indulgence everyone has given this pointless thread, though to be completely honest, I am still not sure I get it, well, maybe a little. I am sorta dense that way, just ask my wife.Like I said, it was a completely whimsical question to start with.
                              I do however have a more relavent question if you please. Would Elon Jessup require a short or long shaft motor? Could the transom be made to accept either?


                              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Billy" <billybronaugh@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > A question from the uneducated. OK, I don't get it. Why, if boats designed for inboard and outboard power are different and you can't use an outboard power in a boat designed for an inboard and vise versa, are the lines for walter piel and sixteen too exactle the same? In fact there are several others in the utilities catagory that are similar to walter piel yet all the others are for inboard power.
                              > Due to my budget, I simply can not afford an inboard system(already have outboards). Plus, I know little to nothing about them (easily fixable unlike my budget). There are so many of the Atkin designs that, like everyone else here, I absolutely love, several that I feel like I have the skill to build, if only I could use an outboard engine. Don't worry, I wouldn't, but don't think I have not been tempted. Tom Davin comes immediately to mind. Pollard 19, Haven would be at the top of the list, Mitty Ann, Ketewomok and hearts desire, just to name a few.
                              > Anyway, just curious. Hope you guys don't mind answering this type of question. Thanks
                              >
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