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Rowing skiff GEORGE

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  • jim.bagley@ymail.com
    Building George I am building a 16 x 4 rowing skiff George . Well not yet, so far I am still assembling the station molds to the fixture. Soon though I will
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 14, 2011
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      Building George
      I am building a 16'x 4' rowing skiff "George". Well not yet, so far I am still assembling the station molds to the fixture. Soon though I will have to obtain boat material. I am well aware of the " thou shalt not change the design" statements prevalent throughout William Atkin's descriptions of his boat designs and the advise from traditionalists that say go find a boat that is designed to be built the way that you want it.
      John Atkin designed the flat bottom rowboat called George. The lines are beautiful and the dimensions are perfect to float two Adults and two children down some quiet rivers with one or two people rowing. Look all you want you will not find plans for anything close to it. John Atkin said on the plans produced in 1992 that the boat could be built either traditionally using 3 strakes of 1/2 " white cedar per side and a flat rocker bottom of 5 strakes of 3/4" cedar each 7-1,/2 " wide with seam battens of 3/8" x 2" White oak above and three 3/4" x 2" white oak runners under full length. There are seven sets of 3/4" x 2"side frames joined with a bottom frame. The Chines , inwales and seat risers are 3/4" x2" and everything is oak. You could drive a truck over this boat and still use it if you could pick up its weight.
      OR he said it could be built out of 1/4" marine plywood for both the bottom and sides in flat panels and everything else remained the same.
      I need a boat that will live on a trailer and not leak when it enters the water so I have chosen plywood. It is my opinion that flat panel sides would spoil the look of the boat and I would prefer to build the sides using epoxy-glued 1/4" marine plywood lapstrake that would also be stronger than flat panel. Also I have a condition that causes me to drag one leg and the last thing I need are all those 2" high bottom frames running across the boat. I therefore plan to use 1/2" marine plywood on the bottom to strengthen and maintain centre of gravity and allow me to delete 4 or 5 bottom frames. I will keep the ones positioned under the seats and keep all the side frames and extend them out slightly onto the bottom. Everything else, chines, quarter knees etc would be as per design and the full extent of use of epoxy would be only to glue the laps and the chines. The outside would be painted green , the sheer guard left bright, the interior below the seat risers painted light brown and the interior above left bright. I will fill under all seats with flotation material.
      Am I so far off design that I am creating a mistake. I recognize that the results are my responsibility and no longer the designers but I would hate to thing the boat will no longer be a George. I was going to call it "Georgian". Any comments?
      Jim
    • Keven
      ... Hello Jim, What you are doing is developing - just as you will be doing with the name. Take the features of an old design that you feel would make for a
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 15, 2011
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        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "jim.bagley@..." <jim.bagley@...> wrote:
        >
        > Building George
        > I am building a 16'x 4' rowing skiff "George".
        > (SNIP)
        > Am I so far off design that I am creating a mistake. I recognize that the results are my responsibility and no longer the designers but I would hate to thing the boat will no longer be a George. I was going to call it "Georgian". Any comments?
        > Jim
        >

        Hello Jim,

        What you are doing is 'developing' - just as you will be doing with the name.

        Take the features of an old design that you feel would make for a strong and practical boat - and adapt it to make for a boat that will retain those features that you find attractive, and build using materials and techniques better suited to your personal requirements and abilities.

        You have this idea thoroughly thought-through - with clear ideas about how you will do things to account for the frames you omit.

        Some may call that a new design - indeed it is - but I like the idea of maintaining the connection with the 'classic Atkin'...

        Best wishes,

        Keven. (model designer)
      • John Almberg
        Jim, Sounds like a good plan to me. Glued lapstrake is a totally legit building method. In fact, it s been around long enough at this point to be called a
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 15, 2011
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          Jim,

          Sounds like a good plan to me. Glued lapstrake is a totally legit building method. In fact, it's been around long enough at this point to be called a 'traditional' boat building method :-)

          I build "Cabin Boy" using glued lapstrake and the result was a very strong and stiff boat that didn't leak a drop while being towed 2000 miles around FL and up the east coast of the US.

          What are you going to do about the fore-and-aft battens & runners?

          I don't like the idea of floatation under the seats -- I'm sure she'd float in the unlikely event she swamped -- but that's just a personal preference.

          -- John



          jim.bagley@... wrote:
           

          Building George
          I am building a 16'x 4' rowing skiff "George". Well not yet, so far I am still assembling the station molds to the fixture. Soon though I will have to obtain boat material. I am well aware of the " thou shalt not change the design" statements prevalent throughout William Atkin's descriptions of his boat designs and the advise from traditionalists that say go find a boat that is designed to be built the way that you want it.
          John Atkin designed the flat bottom rowboat called George. The lines are beautiful and the dimensions are perfect to float two Adults and two children down some quiet rivers with one or two people rowing. Look all you want you will not find plans for anything close to it. John Atkin said on the plans produced in 1992 that the boat could be built either traditionally using 3 strakes of 1/2 " white cedar per side and a flat rocker bottom of 5 strakes of 3/4" cedar each 7-1,/2 " wide with seam battens of 3/8" x 2" White oak above and three 3/4" x 2" white oak runners under full length. There are seven sets of 3/4" x 2"side frames joined with a bottom frame. The Chines , inwales and seat risers are 3/4" x2" and everything is oak. You could drive a truck over this boat and still use it if you could pick up its weight.
          OR he said it could be built out of 1/4" marine plywood for both the bottom and sides in flat panels and everything else remained the same.
          I need a boat that will live on a trailer and not leak when it enters the water so I have chosen plywood. It is my opinion that flat panel sides would spoil the look of the boat and I would prefer to build the sides using epoxy-glued 1/4" marine plywood lapstrake that would also be stronger than flat panel. Also I have a condition that causes me to drag one leg and the last thing I need are all those 2" high bottom frames running across the boat. I therefore plan to use 1/2" marine plywood on the bottom to strengthen and maintain centre of gravity and allow me to delete 4 or 5 bottom frames. I will keep the ones positioned under the seats and keep all the side frames and extend them out slightly onto the bottom. Everything else, chines, quarter knees etc would be as per design and the full extent of use of epoxy would be only to glue the laps and the chines. The outside would be painted green , the sheer guard left bright, the interior below the seat risers painted light brown and the interior above left bright. I will fill under all seats with flotation material.
          Am I so far off design that I am creating a mistake. I recognize that the results are my responsibility and no longer the designers but I would hate to thing the boat will no longer be a George. I was going to call it "Georgian". Any comments?
          Jim


        • V DEMB
          Jim, thanks a lot for drawing my attention to GEORGE design. It is indeed beautiful looking boat. On the same note, I looked at Ration designed by William
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 15, 2011
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            Jim, 
             
            thanks a lot for drawing my attention to GEORGE design.
            It is indeed beautiful looking boat. On the same note, I looked at Ration designed by William Atkin. Ration of the same dimensions, and they look like identical boats.
             
            Does anyone know what are the differences between the George and the Ration?
             
            Regards, Valeri


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: John Almberg <jalmberg@...>
            Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 6:48 am
            Subject: Re: [AtkinBoats] Rowing skiff GEORGE
            To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com

            > Jim,
            >
            > Sounds like a good plan to me. Glued lapstrake is a totally
            > legit building method. In fact, it's been around long enough at
            > this point to be called a 'traditional' boat building method :-)
            >
            > I build "Cabin Boy" using glued lapstrake and the result was a
            > very strong and stiff boat that didn't leak a drop while being
            > towed 2000 miles around FL and up the east coast of the US.
            >
            > What are you going to do about the fore-and-aft battens & runners?
            >
            > I don't like the idea of floatation under the seats -- I'm sure
            > she'd float in the unlikely event she swamped -- but that's just
            > a personal preference.
            >
            > -- John
            >
            >
            >
            > jim.bagley@... wrote:
            > >
            > >Building George
            > >I am building a 16'x 4' rowing skiff "George". Well not yet, so
            > far I am still assembling the station molds to the fixture. Soon
            > though I will have to obtain boat material. I am well aware of
            > the " thou shalt not change the design" statements prevalent
            > throughout William Atkin's descriptions of his boat designs and
            > the advise from traditionalists that say go find a boat that is
            > designed to be built the way that you want it.
            > >John Atkin designed the flat bottom rowboat called George. The
            > lines are beautiful and the dimensions are perfect to float two
            > Adults and two children down some quiet rivers with one or two
            > people rowing. Look all you want you will not find plans for
            > anything close to it. John Atkin said on the plans produced in
            > 1992 that the boat could be built either traditionally using 3
            > strakes of 1/2 " white cedar per side and a flat rocker bottom
            > of 5 strakes of 3/4" cedar each 7-1,/2 " wide with seam battens
            > of 3/8" x 2" White oak above and three 3/4" x 2" white oak
            > runners under full length. There are seven sets of 3/4" x 2"side
            > frames joined with a bottom frame. The Chines , inwales and seat
            > risers are 3/4" x2" and everything is oak. You could drive a
            > truck over this boat and still use it if you could pick up its weight.
            > >OR he said it could be built out of 1/4" marine plywood for
            > both the bottom and sides in flat panels and everything else
            > remained the same.
            > >I need a boat that will live on a trailer and not leak when it
            > enters the water so I have chosen plywood. It is my opinion that
            > flat panel sides would spoil the look of the boat and I would
            > prefer to build the sides using epoxy-glued 1/4" marine plywood
            > lapstrake that would also be stronger than flat panel. Also I
            > have a condition that causes me to drag one leg and the last
            > thing I need are all those 2" high bottom frames running across
            > the boat. I therefore plan to use 1/2" marine plywood on the
            > bottom to strengthen and maintain centre of gravity and allow me
            > to delete 4 or 5 bottom frames. I will keep the ones positioned
            > under the seats and keep all the side frames and extend them out
            > slightly onto the bottom. Everything else, chines, quarter knees
            > etc would be as per design and the full extent of use of epoxy
            > would be only to glue the laps and the chines. The outside would
            > be painted green , the sheer guard left bright, the interior
            > below the seat risers painted light brown and the interior above
            > left bright. I will fill under all seats with flotation material.
            > >Am I so far off design that I am creating a mistake. I
            > recognize that the results are my responsibility and no longer
            > the designers but I would hate to thing the boat will no longer
            > be a George. I was going to call it "Georgian". Any comments?
            > >Jim
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
          • jim.bagley@ymail.com
            Thank you both for your comments. It may sound a bit silly but I do feel better about the modifications now. Kevin , you have an interesting and I must say
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 15, 2011
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              Thank you both for your comments. It may sound a bit silly but I do feel better about the modifications now.
              Kevin , you have an interesting and I must say very rational way of looking at things.
              John, you asked "What are you going to do about the fore-and-aft battens & runners?"

              I will include the three full length 3/4 x 2 oak beaching runners under the bottom, two parallel to and one on the centre line. I will treat them as a replaceable wear item , set them in a bedding compound and fasten to the bottom 1/2" ply from inside with bronze screws, same as the drawings instructions for installation of the skeg.
              I am not sure what you mean by "fore-and aft battens".
              If you mean the battens that are on top of the floor plank seams, I would prefer that the floor be as clean as possible for safety so since there are no longer any bottom seams my plan was to not use them and operate a while on trial. If after some use it feels like the bottom flexes too much when the bow hangs out over a wave then my plan is to install 3 directly over and screwed into the runners. I know that I will dislike drilling all these holes in the boat below the water line. I will reconsider the extra flotation but this boat will be less several cubic feet of cedar that was in the original.

              Valeri, I do not have the drawings for Ration, but you are correct they are very similar. John Atkin actually refers to Ration as a reference on the drawings for George. The write-up for Ration says"The free-board at the bow is 1 foot 7 inches; at the stern, 1 foot 2 1/2 inches; and at the lowest place, 11 inches. George's free-board is 1 '-8-3/4" at the bow, 1'-3-1/2" at the stern and 11-3/4" at the lowest point so there is more free-board on George. (higher seats, more leg room) I may be mistaken but I think from looking at the sketch that it is possible that George may have more rocker at the stern and it appears from both the photograph and sketch that Ration's sheer may be flatter and and straighter while George's sheer may rise up from the centre more to both the stern and the bow. By the way all the offset table dimensions for George fair perfectly on the full size lofting.

              I will send a photo when the boat is completed.
              Thanks
              Jim Bagley
            • John Almberg
              ... I called them battens because that s what John called them in the description. I guess they were installed after the planking was installed? So they are
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 16, 2011
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                I am not sure what you mean by "fore-and aft battens".
                If you mean the battens that are on top of the floor plank seams, I would prefer that the floor be as clean as possible for safety so since there are no longer any bottom seams my plan was to not use them and operate a while on trial. If after some use it feels like the bottom flexes too much when the bow hangs out over a wave then my plan is to install 3 directly over and screwed into the runners. I know that I will dislike drilling all these holes in the boat below the water line. I will reconsider the extra flotation but this boat will be less several cubic feet of cedar that was in the original.

                I called them battens because that's what John called them in the description. I guess they were installed after the planking was installed? So they are not part of the backbone, like a keelson.

                Yes, I don't think you need them if you are using 1/2" ply on the bottom. That will be more than stiff enough, especially with the runners, which are a great idea.

                John


              • Keven
                ... Hello Jim, Thanks. Rational. Hmmmm... I am designer of model aeroplanes and boats for 37 years. I have also built a small dinghy - many years ago - which
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 16, 2011
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                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "jim.bagley@..." <jim.bagley@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you both for your comments. It may sound a bit silly but I do feel better about the modifications now.
                  > Kevin , you have an interesting and I must say very rational way of looking at things.
                  > (snip)

                  Hello Jim,

                  Thanks.
                  Rational. Hmmmm...
                  I am designer of model aeroplanes and boats for 37 years.
                  I have also built a small dinghy - many years ago - which I used to 'rescue' model boats.
                  Model aeroplanes NEED to be equally as airworthy as the full size - so structure is very important.

                  The fore-and-aft battens...
                  As seen in this picture - open in a new tab.
                  http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Photos/George/GeorgeMystic2008.jpg

                  Consider this.
                  Where battens are fitted into the hull on the floor of a small boat, they are in compression - due to the gentle curve of the hull bottom.
                  If you place those battens on the outside surface of the hull bottom - they will be in tension.

                  As well as adding stiffness and covering seams - the battens provide 'edges' - something for your feet to catch on when moving around the boat.

                  Beaching runners/battens
                  Fitted to the bottom surface of a ply bottom - the beaching runners (battens by another name) will stiffen the boat considerably - and help the boat track straight... but you must consider the floor inside again.

                  It is understood that you require the bottom of the boat to be clear - so you are better able to move around it with your condition.
                  I have a similar condition - my spine is damaged - so I do understand.

                  However, you must realise that there is a chance of slipping on the flat, wet floor of a boat, which must taken into account.
                  An anti-slip coating, I would think ?

                  Were you thinking of a hull bottom from a single piece of ply cut to shape ?
                  (I may have missed that)

                  Keven.
                • jim.bagley@ymail.com
                  Kevin , The three full length 3/4 x 2 oak beaching runners will be fastened under the 1/2 marine plywood bottom. I will re-consider adding internal battens
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 16, 2011
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                    Kevin , The three full length 3/4"x 2" oak beaching runners will be fastened under the 1/2" marine plywood bottom. I will re-consider adding internal battens to top of floor after launching and testing. The bottom ply will be one piece approx. 15 ft scarfed 8:1 and glued with epoxy and then glued to the bottom chines. I am using Thomas Hill's method of construction which results in an elaborate fixture but it should pay off in a much simpler build such as being able to trace the bottom outline from the bottom chines which will be already attached to the sides. Unfortunately it will require two 4'x 8' sheets for the bottom with a lot of waste left over. ( This makes me consider laminating two 1/2" plywood pieces to make a 1" thick transom instead of using 3/4" oak plank. I would glue some 1"x1" oak strips all around the edges of the transom to screw the side strakes and bottom into.) I am still looking for the 3/4 transom oak plank and if I find it I will use it.
                    I will add four small 6" wide braces on the floor for the rowers to push their feet against. (I forget what you call those things)

                    Painting the floor with an anti-slip coating is a great idea, but I will need to find something that is better than just putting sand in the final coat of paint. That is not comfortable for small children with bare feet.
                    Thanks for your sharing your expertise. Maybe after the boat and ores are completed and successfully launched we can discuss the second part of the project: adding a small electric motor mounted on a rudder with rope steering and batteries mounted under the seats with the flotation. But one thing at a time.
                    Back to mounting those stations.
                    Thanks for your interest.
                    Jim
                  • John Almberg
                    ... Stretchers.
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 16, 2011
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                      jim.bagley@... wrote:
                       


                      I will add four small 6" wide braces on the floor for the rowers to push their feet against. (I forget what you call those things)

                      Stretchers.

                    • deceiverbob99
                      I have also recently purchased plans for George. The construction details for the plywood version show only the keel they do not show the internal battens as
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 16, 2011
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                        I have also recently purchased plans for George. The construction details for the plywood version show only the keel they do not show the
                        internal battens as these install over the seams of the bottom planking on the traditionally built version. According to an old post in here
                        George is a revised Ration with a little more sheer and a little more flare.
                      • John Kohnen
                        A fore-and-aft planked bottom with batten seams like George s will stay tight better when dried out on a trailer than a cross-planked bottom, and maybe that s
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 16, 2011
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                          A fore-and-aft planked bottom with batten seams like George's will stay
                          tight better when dried out on a trailer than a cross-planked bottom, and
                          maybe that's why the Atkin's chose that construction for ration and
                          George, but fore-and-aft planking requires all those full frames, and
                          bottom frames are a nuisance in a flat-bottom boat. :o( If I were to build
                          George I'd throw away _all of_ the full frames and use the cross-planked
                          building method, but with a plywood bottom, laying the plywood sheets
                          crosswise so their greatest stiffness is athwartships, like traditional
                          cross-planking. The only frames would be side frames and an inside keel
                          (You probably wouldn't even need that if you use 1/2" ply for the
                          bottom!). Glued lapstrake plywood would be just fine for the sides. I'd
                          use 1/4" ply for the sides and 3/8" on the bottom. The side frames are
                          installed perpendicular to the curve of the sides, so no beveling is
                          necessary. Don't pay any attention to drawings in the catalog that show
                          them otherwise. You can probably get enough of an idea about cross-planked
                          skiff construction to build your boat from the illustrations in the online
                          catalog. Feel free to email me privately for advice.

                          Pat Patteson's Scandal was built in the cross-planked manner using plywood:

                          http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Oar/Scandal.html

                          Some other examples can be found in the catalog, such as:

                          http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Oar/Sprite.html

                          http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Oar/CGJunior.html

                          and more...

                          Good luck with your project! I'm sure you'll be happy with the boat.

                          On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 19:43:16 -0700, jim b wrote:

                          > Building George
                          > ...
                          > John Atkin designed the flat bottom rowboat called George. The lines
                          > are beautiful and the dimensions are perfect to float two Adults and two
                          > children down some quiet rivers with one or two people rowing. Look all
                          > you want you will not find plans for anything close to it. John Atkin
                          > said on the plans produced in 1992 that the boat could be built either
                          > traditionally using 3 strakes of 1/2 " white cedar per side and a flat
                          > rocker bottom of 5 strakes of 3/4" cedar each 7-1,/2 " wide with seam
                          > battens of 3/8" x 2" White oak above and three 3/4" x 2" white oak
                          > runners under full length. There are seven sets of 3/4" x 2"side frames
                          > joined with a bottom frame. The Chines , inwales and seat risers are
                          > 3/4" x2" and everything is oak. You could drive a truck over this boat
                          > and still use it if you could pick up its weight.
                          > OR he said it could be built out of 1/4" marine plywood for both the
                          > bottom and sides in flat panels and everything else remained the same.
                          > I need a boat that will live on a trailer and not leak when it enters
                          > the water so I have chosen plywood. It is my opinion that flat panel
                          > sides would spoil the look of the boat and I would prefer to build the
                          > sides using epoxy-glued 1/4" marine plywood lapstrake that would also be
                          > stronger than flat panel. Also I have a condition that causes me to drag
                          > one leg and the last thing I need are all those 2" high bottom frames
                          > running across the boat. I therefore plan to use 1/2" marine plywood on
                          > the bottom to strengthen and maintain centre of gravity and allow me to
                          > delete 4 or 5 bottom frames. I will keep the ones positioned under the
                          > seats and keep all the side frames and extend them out slightly onto the
                          > bottom....


                          --
                          John (jkohnen@...)
                          No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of
                          society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we
                          shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for
                          stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power. (P.J. O'Rourke)
                        • John Kohnen
                          Bless you, Jim! You re off to a good start by not getting impatient and skipping the lofting. :o) ... -- John (jkohnen@boat-links.com) They that can give up
                          Message 12 of 12 , Mar 16, 2011
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                            Bless you, Jim! You're off to a good start by not getting impatient and
                            skipping the lofting. :o)

                            On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 20:35:42 -0700, jim b wrote:

                            > ...
                            > By the way all the offset table dimensions for George fair perfectly on
                            > the full size lofting.
                            > ...


                            --
                            John (jkohnen@...)
                            They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
                            temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. (Benjamin
                            Franklin)
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