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boat choice

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  • marke
    I m in the process of building a steam engine which should produce 3 hp at 500 rpms which will need a 15 inch by 22 pitch propeller. Now I m trying to choose
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 24, 2010
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      I'm in the process of building a steam engine which should produce 3 hp at 500 rpms which will need a 15 inch by 22 pitch propeller. Now I'm trying to choose a boat to build. I bought study plans for Twinkle but they didn't indicate if the prop would fit. I like the shallow draft feature but need to know which boat will accomodate my engine and prop before I order more plans. I am also restricted to not more than 20 ft. long. Can anyone help me?

      Thanks for any tips,
      Mark Ellefson
    • David Calloway
      Hi Mark, In Dave Gerr s excellent book Propeller Handbook on page 84 he says the minimum distance between the hull and the prop should be 0.15 times the
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 24, 2010
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        Hi Mark,

         

        In Dave Gerr’s excellent book “Propeller Handbook” on page 84 he says the minimum distance between the hull and the prop should be 0.15 times the diameter of the prop. If you need a 15 in prop, then you need 9.75 inches to the center of the prop shaft to get 2.25 inches of clearance. So the boat you’re looking for will have to allow you to place the shaft that far below the hull.

         

        I highly recommend Dave’s book, it’s more than most will ever want to know about props.

         

        Dave

         

        From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of marke
        Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:45 AM
        To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AtkinBoats] boat choice

         

         

        I'm in the process of building a steam engine which should produce 3 hp at 500 rpms which will need a 15 inch by 22 pitch propeller. Now I'm trying to choose a boat to build. I bought study plans for Twinkle but they didn't indicate if the prop would fit. I like the shallow draft feature but need to know which boat will accomodate my engine and prop before I order more plans. I am also restricted to not more than 20 ft. long. Can anyone help me?

        Thanks for any tips,
        Mark Ellefson

      • John Kohnen
        Twinkle s tunnel is about 13 1/2 high at the propeller. The tunnel s width isn t given in the offsets, so it d have to be scaled off the plans. I don t think
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 24, 2010
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          Twinkle's tunnel is about 13 1/2" high at the propeller. The tunnel's
          width isn't given in the offsets, so it'd have to be scaled off the plans.
          I don't think Twinkle is a good fit for your engine and propeller.

          On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:44:59 -0700, mark e wrote:

          > I'm in the process of building a steam engine which should produce 3 hp
          > at 500 rpms which will need a 15 inch by 22 pitch propeller. Now I'm
          > trying to choose a boat to build. I bought study plans for Twinkle but
          > they didn't indicate if the prop would fit. I like the shallow draft
          > feature but need to know which boat will accomodate my engine and prop
          > before I order more plans. I am also restricted to not more than 20 ft.
          > long. Can anyone help me?

          --
          John (jkohnen@...)
          The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you
          can be pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying
          virtues. (Elizabeth Taylor)
        • Mike
          The only boat in the catalog well suited to that sort of high torque low speed power is Tanja. I think she would make a beautiful sight to see propelled by
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 24, 2010
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            The only boat in the catalog well suited to that sort of high torque low speed power is Tanja. I think she would make a beautiful sight to see propelled by your engine. Some of the larger boats might take the wheel but they were designed for more HP at higher revolutions and performance would be poor. Do not be overly concerned about propeller distance from the hull along the shaft line at those rpm's of course you need clearance between the blade tips and the bottom of the stern but not much.

            John Dolph


            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "marke" <rowcycle@...> wrote:
            >
            > I'm in the process of building a steam engine which should produce 3 hp at 500 rpms which will need a 15 inch by 22 pitch propeller. Now I'm trying to choose a boat to build. I bought study plans for Twinkle but they didn't indicate if the prop would fit. I like the shallow draft feature but need to know which boat will accomodate my engine and prop before I order more plans. I am also restricted to not more than 20 ft. long. Can anyone help me?
            >
            > Thanks for any tips,
            > Mark Ellefson
            >
          • Alan Boman
            Have you considered a paddle wheeler ? Low revs and high torque are ideal. Atkin s Lady of the Lake is a bit longer than you had in mind, but it would work
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 25, 2010
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              Have you considered a paddle wheeler ?

               

              Low revs and high torque are ideal. Atkin’s “Lady of the Lake” is a bit longer than you had in mind, but it would work really well.

               

              Alan

               

               

              From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of marke
              Sent: Wednesday, 25 August 2010 12:15 AM
              To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [AtkinBoats] boat choice

               

               

              I'm in the process of building a steam engine which should produce 3 hp at 500 rpms which will need a 15 inch by 22 pitch propeller. Now I'm trying to choose a boat to build. I bought study plans for Twinkle but they didn't indicate if the prop would fit. I like the shallow draft feature but need to know which boat will accomodate my engine and prop before I order more plans. I am also restricted to not more than 20 ft. long. Can anyone help me?

              Thanks for any tips,
              Mark Ellefson

            • mark ellefson
              Yes, I have considered a paddlewheeler that would fit in my garage, but I prefer a propeller type. Mark ... Yes, I have considered a paddlewheeler that would
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 25, 2010
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                Yes, I have considered a paddlewheeler that would fit in my garage, but I prefer a propeller type.
                 
                Mark


                 
                On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 5:50 AM, Alan Boman <alan@...> wrote:
                 

                Have you considered a paddle wheeler ?

                 

                Low revs and high torque are ideal. Atkin’s “Lady of the Lake” is a bit longer than you had in mind, but it would work really well.

                 

                Alan

                 

                 

                From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of marke
                Sent: Wednesday, 25 August 2010 12:15 AM


                To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [AtkinBoats] boat choice

                 

                 

                I'm in the process of building a steam engine which should produce 3 hp at 500 rpms which will need a 15 inch by 22 pitch propeller. Now I'm trying to choose a boat to build. I bought study plans for Twinkle but they didn't indicate if the prop would fit. I like the shallow draft feature but need to know which boat will accomodate my engine and prop before I order more plans. I am also restricted to not more than 20 ft. long. Can anyone help me?



                Thanks for any tips,
                Mark Ellefson


              • mark ellefson
                Thanks to all of you for the advice. Tanja was one of the boats I ve been considering and will probably build when I get ready. What type of construction
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 25, 2010
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                  Thanks to all of you for the advice.  Tanja was one of the boats I've been considering and will probably build when I get ready.  What type of construction does she use?  I'm a little bit concerned about how difficult it is to build since nothing was said.  I'm good with tools but have never built a boat before.
                   
                  Mark

                  On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Mike <johndolph@...> wrote:
                   

                  The only boat in the catalog well suited to that sort of high torque low speed power is Tanja. I think she would make a beautiful sight to see propelled by your engine. Some of the larger boats might take the wheel but they were designed for more HP at higher revolutions and performance would be poor. Do not be overly concerned about propeller distance from the hull along the shaft line at those rpm's of course you need clearance between the blade tips and the bottom of the stern but not much.

                  John Dolph



                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "marke" <rowcycle@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I'm in the process of building a steam engine which should produce 3 hp at 500 rpms which will need a 15 inch by 22 pitch propeller. Now I'm trying to choose a boat to build. I bought study plans for Twinkle but they didn't indicate if the prop would fit. I like the shallow draft feature but need to know which boat will accomodate my engine and prop before I order more plans. I am also restricted to not more than 20 ft. long. Can anyone help me?
                  >
                  > Thanks for any tips,
                  > Mark Ellefson
                  >


                • Mike
                  Tanja would need a professional builder. If you can t afford Joel White or someone of his stature it s probably not the boat for you. I looked up a possible
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 25, 2010
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                    Tanja would need a professional builder. If you can't afford Joel White or someone of his stature it's probably not the boat for you. I looked up a possible alternative; not an Atkins design unfortunately. It's a power dory the plans of which are free but somewhat involved to obtain. Go to GoogleBooks and search "rudder", you will get the 1922 compilation of Rudder Magazine,when you have the 1922 yearbook in front of you look in the upper left of the page and click on "about this book", near the bottom of this page there will be a section for "other books like this" or something similar. Click on the small link to "view all" and you will find 4 pages of other links for Rudder, two of them will be for 1910. The second half of the 1910 year will have building plans on page 202 for a lapstrake power dory designed by Fred Goeller who was a very successful New York builder who contributed many designs to Rudder. That one might be built in plywood. It's 18 feet and narrower at the waterline than Tanja but it's right for your engine I think. There, the world has my last secret! Well maybe everyone knew but I haven't seen anyone mention Rudder on GoogleBooks before. I hope this helps.

                    Mike

                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, mark ellefson <rowcycle@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks to all of you for the advice. Tanja was one of the boats I've been
                    > considering and will probably build when I get ready. What type of
                    > construction does she use? I'm a little bit concerned about how difficult
                    > it is to build since nothing was said. I'm good with tools but have never
                    > built a boat before.
                    >
                    > Mark
                    >
                    > On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Mike <johndolph@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The only boat in the catalog well suited to that sort of high torque low
                    > > speed power is Tanja. I think she would make a beautiful sight to see
                    > > propelled by your engine. Some of the larger boats might take the wheel but
                    > > they were designed for more HP at higher revolutions and performance would
                    > > be poor. Do not be overly concerned about propeller distance from the hull
                    > > along the shaft line at those rpm's of course you need clearance between the
                    > > blade tips and the bottom of the stern but not much.
                    > >
                    > > John Dolph
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com <AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com>, "marke"
                    > > <rowcycle@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm in the process of building a steam engine which should produce 3 hp
                    > > at 500 rpms which will need a 15 inch by 22 pitch propeller. Now I'm trying
                    > > to choose a boat to build. I bought study plans for Twinkle but they didn't
                    > > indicate if the prop would fit. I like the shallow draft feature but need to
                    > > know which boat will accomodate my engine and prop before I order more
                    > > plans. I am also restricted to not more than 20 ft. long. Can anyone help
                    > > me?
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks for any tips,
                    > > > Mark Ellefson
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • John Kohnen
                    Tanja is conventional carvel (smooth skin) construction, 3/4 planks over bent oak frames. In the Old Days every boatshop around could knock out hull s like
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 25, 2010
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                      Tanja is conventional carvel (smooth skin) construction, 3/4" planks over
                      bent oak frames. In the Old Days every boatshop around could knock out
                      hull's like Tanja's, but she'd be difficult for a beginning amateur
                      builder today, though plenty of beginners over the years have built boats
                      like her. Nowadays most people would keep a 17' boat on a trailer, and
                      carvel construction doesn't like living on a trailer. With her heavy
                      build, Tanja would be a good boat to build with strip planking, sheathed
                      with fiberglass just on the outside (not like a stripper canoe, glassed
                      inside and out), if she was going to be kept on a trailer.

                      I think Seven Days might be a good boat to think about, Mark. She's
                      designed to carry a heavy powerplant (Universal Fisherman, almost 300 lb.
                      with reverse gear) and isn't intended to pushed much past "hull speed."
                      You'd have to make a deeper skeg to accommodate your big propeller, but
                      otherwise she should work fine. She's designed for either lapstrake or
                      batten-seam side planking and and fore-and-aft batten-seam bottom
                      planking, which will tolerate being trailered, though I'd advise using
                      plywood at least on the bottom if she's gonna live on a trailer.
                      Converting Seven Days to plywood planking throughout would be a snap:

                      http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Utilities/SevenDays.html

                      On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:52:26 -0700, mark e wrote:

                      > Thanks to all of you for the advice. Tanja was one of the boats I've
                      > been
                      > considering and will probably build when I get ready. What type of
                      > construction does she use? I'm a little bit concerned about how
                      > difficult
                      > it is to build since nothing was said. I'm good with tools but have
                      > never
                      > built a boat before.

                      --
                      John (jkohnen@...)
                      A belief which leaves no place for doubt is not a belief; it is
                      a superstition. (Jose Bergamin)
                    • John Kohnen
                      I don t agree that Tanja would need to be built by a professional, but she would be a lot for an inexperienced amateur to take on. I ve got better scans of the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 25, 2010
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                      I don't agree that Tanja would need to be built by a professional, but she
                      would be a lot for an inexperienced amateur to take on. I've got better
                      scans of the power dory, Cod, if Mark wants to try building her. She's
                      somewhere between Seven Days and Tanja in building difficulty.

                      On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:18:35 -0700, Mike wrote:

                      > Tanja would need a professional builder. If you can't afford Joel White
                      > or someone of his stature it's probably not the boat for you. I looked
                      > up a possible alternative; not an Atkins design unfortunately....


                      --
                      John (jkohnen@...)
                      A society that gets rid of all its troublemakers goes downhill.
                      (Robert A. Heinlein)
                    • Mike
                      I didn t think of strip planking. Of the three a strip planked Tanja tastes the best for a steam engine. Mike Dolph
                      Message 11 of 13 , Aug 25, 2010
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                        I didn't think of strip planking. Of the three a strip planked Tanja "tastes" the best for a steam engine.

                        Mike Dolph

                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I don't agree that Tanja would need to be built by a professional, but she
                        > would be a lot for an inexperienced amateur to take on. I've got better
                        > scans of the power dory, Cod, if Mark wants to try building her. She's
                        > somewhere between Seven Days and Tanja in building difficulty.
                        >
                        > On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:18:35 -0700, Mike wrote:
                        >
                        > > Tanja would need a professional builder. If you can't afford Joel White
                        > > or someone of his stature it's probably not the boat for you. I looked
                        > > up a possible alternative; not an Atkins design unfortunately....
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > John (jkohnen@...)
                        > A society that gets rid of all its troublemakers goes downhill.
                        > (Robert A. Heinlein)
                        >
                      • John Kohnen
                        Is the propeller part of a kit you re building the engine from? If you don t already have the propeller, you may not need to use a 15 one, and even if you ve
                        Message 12 of 13 , Aug 25, 2010
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                          Is the propeller part of a kit you're building the engine from? If you
                          don't already have the propeller, you may not need to use a 15" one, and
                          even if you've got one you might be able to use it as trading stiock.
                          Steam engines like big, slow propellers, but the right propeller for the
                          job depends not only on the engine, but also the boat and the speed you
                          want to go. 15" x 22" might be just right for the typical heavy
                          displacement launch people usually put steam engines into, but it might
                          not be best for a lighter boat like Seven Days, so you might be able to
                          use a smaller propeller to advantage -- and shallower draft.

                          As someone mentioned, Dave Gerr wrote a whole book on propeller selection:

                          http://preview.tinyurl.com/334jmb8

                          What steam engine are you building, Mark?

                          On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:44:59 -0700, mark wrote:

                          > I'm in the process of building a steam engine which should produce 3 hp
                          > at 500 rpms which will need a 15 inch by 22 pitch propeller.
                          > ...

                          --
                          John (jkohnen@...)
                          One must have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell
                          by Dickens without laughing. (Oscar Wilde)
                        • mark ellefson
                          Thanks again, It now seems that Seven Days is best for me to build. (My wife liked it too. Last time we both liked the same thing we bought a house!) I
                          Message 13 of 13 , Aug 26, 2010
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                            Thanks again,
                            It now seems that "Seven Days" is best for me to build.  (My wife liked it too.  Last time we both liked the same thing we bought a house!)  I ordered the Propeller handbook to study up.  I'll be curious to see if the choice changes.
                             
                            I'm building the Hasbrouck Engine #5, a 2-1/2 to 3 HP double acting  2" dia. by 2-1/2" stroke, twin cylinder.  It doesn't require castings and only needs a 9" lathe and a mill.  I've completed most of the lathe parts, but don't have a mill yet.  Do you know of any for sale in the midwest?
                             
                            Mark
                            On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 12:30 AM, John Kohnen <jkohnen@...> wrote:
                            Is the propeller part of a kit you're building the engine from? If you
                            don't already have the propeller, you may not need to use a 15" one, and
                            even if you've got one you might be able to use it as trading stiock.
                            Steam engines like big, slow propellers, but the right propeller for the
                            job depends not only on the engine, but also the boat and the speed you
                            want to go. 15" x 22" might be just right for the typical heavy
                            displacement launch people usually put steam engines into, but it might
                            not be best for a lighter boat like Seven Days, so you might be able to
                            use a smaller propeller to advantage -- and shallower draft.

                            As someone mentioned, Dave Gerr wrote a whole book on propeller selection:

                            http://preview.tinyurl.com/334jmb8

                            What steam engine are you building, Mark?

                            On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:44:59 -0700, mark wrote:

                            > I'm in the process of building a steam engine which should produce 3 hp
                            > at 500 rpms which will need a 15 inch by 22 pitch propeller.
                            > ...

                            --
                            John (jkohnen@...)
                            One must have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell
                            by Dickens without laughing. (Oscar Wilde)


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