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Eric

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  • aschm078
    I am looking to build a boat within the next couple of years, and while researching Colin Archer boat designs I stumbled across www.atkinboatplans.com, I am
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 12 2:31 PM
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      I am looking to build a boat within the next couple of years, and while researching Colin Archer boat designs I stumbled across www.atkinboatplans.com, I am intreasted in the Eric but noted that it says that Eric is not the type of boat for a beginner to tackle, and suggests that I confine my efforts to more elementary designs earlier and later in the series. What makes the Eric design unfit for a beginner? and which other more elementary designs might they have been referring to?
    • Patrick Blanchard
      Keep your eye on the Eric. More to follow, busy right now. http://www.flickr.com/photos/headsqueeze check the Agni set of photos in the meantime.
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 12 4:08 PM
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        Keep your eye on the Eric. More to follow, busy right now. http://www.flickr.com/photos/headsqueeze check the Agni set of photos in the meantime.

        On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 4:31 PM, aschm078 <aschm078@...> wrote:
         

        I am looking to build a boat within the next couple of years, and while researching Colin Archer boat designs I stumbled across www.atkinboatplans.com, I am intreasted in the Eric but noted that it says that Eric is not the type of boat for a beginner to tackle, and suggests that I confine my efforts to more elementary designs earlier and later in the series. What makes the Eric design unfit for a beginner? and which other more elementary designs might they have been referring to?


      • JohnA
        It s one of my core beliefs that you can climb any mountain -- if you climb it slowly enough. So you probably could build an Eric as your first boat. Others
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 12 8:01 PM
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          It's one of my core beliefs that you can climb any mountain -- if you climb it slowly enough. So you probably could build an Eric as your first boat. Others have done similar things, BUT... it typically takes them a very, very long time.

          In fact, it's almost a cliche... man starts to build a boat and -- 20 years later -- finishes it just as he's too old to enjoy it.

          I'd argue that it is much smarter, and probably faster, to start with a MUCH smaller boat. Like an Atkin "Cabin Boy".

          My reason is that you will learn a huge number of things... things no one on this list has time to even list... building even a small traditional boat.

          Plus, you are bound to make loads of mistakes while building it. Much easier and cheaper to throw away a 8' plank than a 32' plank.

          You'll also learn how expensive it is to build a boat -- it is NOT the cheapest way to acquire a boat. It might be the most expensive way to get one, in fact.

          Finally, after building an 8' boat -- which will probably take a year... that seems typical -- you will have a much better idea of what you would be getting into with a big boat like Eric.

          If you decide Eric is your ultimate goal, don't be surprised if you decide to build a 12' round bottom boat before you attempt a bigger boat. If nothing else, boat building teaches humility :-)

          So, my advice would be to start with a small, flat bottom boat, like "Cabin Boy" or "Katydidnt".

          To see what's involved in building such a 'simple' boat, check out my blog: http://www.unlikelyboatbuilder.com

          Good luck!

          -- John

          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "aschm078" <aschm078@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am looking to build a boat within the next couple of years, and while researching Colin Archer boat designs I stumbled across www.atkinboatplans.com, I am intreasted in the Eric but noted that it says that Eric is not the type of boat for a beginner to tackle, and suggests that I confine my efforts to more elementary designs earlier and later in the series. What makes the Eric design unfit for a beginner? and which other more elementary designs might they have been referring to?
          >
        • JohnA
          ... Sorry, what I mean to say was a flat bottom boat like Cabin Boy, or if you are feeling really ambitious, a small round bottom boat like Katydidn t. Both
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 12 8:08 PM
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            > So, my advice would be to start with a small, flat bottom boat, like "Cabin Boy" or "Katydidnt".

            Sorry, what I mean to say was a flat bottom boat like Cabin Boy, or if you are feeling really ambitious, a small round bottom boat like Katydidn't.

            Both are fabulous boats, and you're going to need a dingy, anyway!

            -- John
          • aschm078
            Thank you for the input. as you mentioned I will need a dingy anyways, and it is something I can do to practice before I have the time or space to commit to a
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 13 3:29 PM
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              Thank you for the input. as you mentioned I will need a dingy anyways, and it is something I can do to practice before I have the time or space to commit to a serious project, and perhaps allow me to learn to sail on something small. I am from the midwest and have spent much of my free time on the water, but mostly in a canoe, unfortunately I work seasonally and don't have any time to go canoeing in the summer months. I have spent some time living in northern Norway which is where I first encountered this style of boat, and thought this might be a good hobby in my off season (winter)to build and sail around the Caribbean. As for past boat building experience I have constructed a 16 foot cedar strip canoe. I realize a cedar strip is a different construction style but I took a look at the Cabin Boy and the Katydidnt, and was wondering if perhaps the Vintage or Handy Andy would make a decent Dingy for a boat the size of Eric?

              Andre

              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "JohnA" <jalmberg@...> wrote:
              >
              > > So, my advice would be to start with a small, flat bottom boat, like "Cabin Boy" or "Katydidnt".
              >
              > Sorry, what I mean to say was a flat bottom boat like Cabin Boy, or if you are feeling really ambitious, a small round bottom boat like Katydidn't.
              >
              > Both are fabulous boats, and you're going to need a dingy, anyway!
              >
              > -- John
              >
            • stu
              An alternate perspective. I m thinking of building a dingy for my Atkin 26 ft gaff rigged tops l cutter, and the idea of an Atkin-designed tender is
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 13 6:53 PM
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                An alternate perspective.

                I'm thinking of building a dingy for my Atkin 26 ft gaff rigged tops'l cutter, and the idea of an Atkin-designed tender is compelling.  But a clue from my canoeing experiences pushes me in another direction.  I built a tom hill ultralight canoe (4 mm occume marine plywood, built in the lapstrake style), and I also scrapped my 90 lb aluminum livery barge and got a 42 lb kevlar touring canoe.  At our advancing age, the reduction in weight is everything.

                Ian Oughtread has some great classic dinghy designs rendered in the ultralight style that will come in at about half the weight of the ever-so-lovely clinker-built classics that the Atkins designed.

                When I think about horsing a 75 to 90 lb dinghy around, it makes me ache, however nice they are.  Ultralight construction won't teach you all that much about traditional boat building, but you'll end up with a boat that is far lighter, versatile, suited to its purpose, and far easier to maintain.

                enjoy.

                stu

                http://svripple.blogspot.com/

                On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 3:29 PM, aschm078 <aschm078@...> wrote:
                 

                Thank you for the input. as you mentioned I will need a dingy anyways, and it is something I can do to practice before I have the time or space to commit to a serious project, and perhaps allow me to learn to sail on something small. I am from the midwest and have spent much of my free time on the water, but mostly in a canoe, unfortunately I work seasonally and don't have any time to go canoeing in the summer months. I have spent some time living in northern Norway which is where I first encountered this style of boat, and thought this might be a good hobby in my off season (winter)to build and sail around the Caribbean. As for past boat building experience I have constructed a 16 foot cedar strip canoe. I realize a cedar strip is a different construction style but I took a look at the Cabin Boy and the Katydidnt, and was wondering if perhaps the Vintage or Handy Andy would make a decent Dingy for a boat the size of Eric?

                Andre



                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "JohnA" <jalmberg@...> wrote:
                >
                > > So, my advice would be to start with a small, flat bottom boat, like "Cabin Boy" or "Katydidnt".
                >
                > Sorry, what I mean to say was a flat bottom boat like Cabin Boy, or if you are feeling really ambitious, a small round bottom boat like Katydidn't.
                >
                > Both are fabulous boats, and you're going to need a dingy, anyway!
                >
                > -- John
                >


              • John Almberg
                For off shore cruising, you need something that will fit on the cabin top... Someone here should know what length dingy Eric can handle. The main thing is to
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 13 8:18 PM
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                  For off shore cruising, you need something that will fit on the cabin top... Someone here should know what length dingy Eric can handle. 

                  The main thing is to get some experience in traditional boat building before you tackle a big project like Eric. You'll learn a ton.

                  -- John

                  Sent from my iPhone, so may be a bit brief.

                  On Mar 13, 2010, at 6:29 PM, "aschm078" <aschm078@...> wrote:

                   

                  Thank you for the input. as you mentioned I will need a dingy anyways, and it is something I can do to practice before I have the time or space to commit to a serious project, and perhaps allow me to learn to sail on something small. I am from the midwest and have spent much of my free time on the water, but mostly in a canoe, unfortunately I work seasonally and don't have any time to go canoeing in the summer months. I have spent some time living in northern Norway which is where I first encountered this style of boat, and thought this might be a good hobby in my off season (winter)to build and sail around the Caribbean. As for past boat building experience I have constructed a 16 foot cedar strip canoe. I realize a cedar strip is a different construction style but I took a look at the Cabin Boy and the Katydidnt, and was wondering if perhaps the Vintage or Handy Andy would make a decent Dingy for a boat the size of Eric?

                  Andre

                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "JohnA" <jalmberg@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > > So, my advice would be to start with a small, flat bottom boat, like "Cabin Boy" or "Katydidnt".
                  >
                  > Sorry, what I mean to say was a flat bottom boat like Cabin Boy, or if you are feeling really ambitious, a small round bottom boat like Katydidn't.
                  >
                  > Both are fabulous boats, and you're going to need a dingy, anyway!
                  >
                  > -- John
                  >

                • John Almberg
                  ... Just had a chance to look at these designs... Vintage is surely too big... you d never fit a 10 boat on the cabin top. Handy Andy is interesting, but if
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 14 12:57 PM
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                    was wondering if perhaps the Vintage or Handy Andy would make a decent Dingy for a boat the size of Eric?
                    Just had a chance to look at these designs...

                    Vintage is surely too big... you'd never fit a 10' boat on the cabin top.

                    Handy Andy is interesting, but if you want to learn something about traditional boat building, you should probably choose a planked boat.

                    -- John
                  • Patrick Blanchard
                    Everyone needs a lot of help to build an Eric. You can t build it solo. There are several ways to get help. Have a bare hull built for you and take it from
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 14 6:03 PM
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                      Everyone needs a lot of help to build an Eric. You can't build it solo. There are several ways to get help. Have a bare hull built for you and take it from there or do like I did and restore one. I did not build my Eric, it was built over 10 years by at least 6 people. It will take me at least 3 years to restore it, with help.

                      The boat must match the dream that must match the budget. You can quote me on that. Let me explain...

                      Eric's lines and history are endearing, and it is there that I find the strength to work hard when I want to quit. There are some designs that do not inspire me to work hard, like Brewer's Tern 32 that stalled because it did not match my dream. I can't afford a newly finished Eric but I can afford to pay as I go for restoration because I have a job doing something else.

                      You have to start or you will never finish. If you never finish, you will not have failed because you learned new skills and understand why you want a boat like the Eric.

                      I cannot think of a more beautiful tender for Eric than the Lynaes Dinghy. Both boats come from the same place. The Lynaes was once the tender for the rescue boats. She should do everything and more, such as kedging or setting anchors in a squall. You can download my loft for free. If you want a smaller version, then scale it down before printing. Chuck Cole built a 10' version. Good boats scale easily. I think he lofted the stations to 12" instead of what is shown in Neilson's book, the same book from which I lifted the lines and posted the loft for you. I've posted a link for a 15' version too...

                      http://tinyurl.com/ydoar62
                      http://tinyurl.com/ye5j336


                      This afternoon I measured (again) where to place the Lynaes Dinghy. If you rig your Eric with the Dragon's gaff cutter as I will, it will fit atop the cabin but with little room aft unless you scale down. I plan to place a white oak cleat stem and stern and lift her with the boom.

                      Daniel McNaughten posts a great article about the Eric and how it is the best boat for the worst weather. It's OK to modify the cabins and deck beams. Look at my photos on flickr and it is what he was talking about. I will have a flush deck aft, and companionway far aft and also at the forward hatch. The cabin is smaller and stronger for it. It works for me anyway. There will be no engine, only a Yuloh. You might read Annie Hills book, it is very good.

                      You can find my description of the "triple sawn timber" on the resorcinol glue thread under woodenboats.com. It will be the answer for your timbers on the Lynaes keel and the Eric.

                      You can build more than one boat at a time you know. It takes time to make the workspace and gather materials. Build the tender but don't wait until you are finished to get your Eric started.

                      Best wishes, Patrick

                    • John Almberg
                      Tha big lapstrake double-ender is pretty cool! I m finally getting the hang of lapstrake planking. Just did my first scarf today. Nothing more fun than boat
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 14 6:21 PM
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                        Tha big lapstrake double-ender is pretty cool! I'm finally getting the hang of lapstrake planking. Just did my first scarf today.

                        Nothing more fun than boat building, but I must agree... a lot of work/dough to build an Eric. My dreams only extend to the 28' Fore an' Aft :-)

                        -- John

                        Patrick Blanchard wrote:
                         

                        Everyone needs a lot of help to build an Eric. You can't build it solo. There are several ways to get help. Have a bare hull built for you and take it from there or do like I did and restore one. I did not build my Eric, it was built over 10 years by at least 6 people. It will take me at least 3 years to restore it, with help.

                        The boat must match the dream that must match the budget. You can quote me on that. Let me explain...

                        Eric's lines and history are endearing, and it is there that I find the strength to work hard when I want to quit. There are some designs that do not inspire me to work hard, like Brewer's Tern 32 that stalled because it did not match my dream. I can't afford a newly finished Eric but I can afford to pay as I go for restoration because I have a job doing something else.

                        You have to start or you will never finish. If you never finish, you will not have failed because you learned new skills and understand why you want a boat like the Eric.

                        I cannot think of a more beautiful tender for Eric than the Lynaes Dinghy. Both boats come from the same place. The Lynaes was once the tender for the rescue boats. She should do everything and more, such as kedging or setting anchors in a squall. You can download my loft for free. If you want a smaller version, then scale it down before printing. Chuck Cole built a 10' version. Good boats scale easily. I think he lofted the stations to 12" instead of what is shown in Neilson's book, the same book from which I lifted the lines and posted the loft for you. I've posted a link for a 15' version too...

                        http://tinyurl. com/ydoar62
                        http://tinyurl. com/ye5j336


                      • aschm078
                        Thank you guys for all your input. Patrick for your positive attitude! and John for being realistic, you guys sort of balance each other out. I am a wildland
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 14 8:00 PM
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                          Thank you guys for all your input. Patrick for your positive attitude! and John for being realistic, you guys sort of balance each other out. I am a wildland firefighter, it is my job to look at what others may think impossible, and to get it done. Without an attitude like Patrick, Much would not be accomplished. but also preparation that John is suggesting, makes accomplishing the impossible well within the realm of reality.

                          In terms of what to use as a Tender. I would like to build something that is practical. In the event that Eric never gets built, I would like to have not built something that will never get used. and a concern of mine with the Katydidnt is that it says that it is unstable and shouldn't be used as a lifeboat. If I am to tote it onboard a boat where space is limited, I want something that can ferry passengers back and forth, be stable and usable as a lifeboat for all passengers (4), and even throw up a sail would be nice.

                          Patrick, would you have an idea as to the max length dingy stow-able onboard the Eric?

                          As I mentioned, I am still in the planning/research phase of my future project, all starting ten years ago on a trip to Norway. I am not a sailor, nor have I spent much time on the water in anything other than a canoe. as such I have two questions for now 1) could you guys give me any insight into sail design. Pat, you mentioned rigging your Eric with a gaff cutter rig. what are the pros/cons of that over the more classic look of the ketch rig as seen the original Colin Archers and fishing vessels all over Norway? 2) Pat, you mentioned altering some of the Cabin and deck. In Norway I spent a week, in rough weather, on a boat similar to the Eric (designed after the Colin Archer Redningsskøyte) that had an enclosure around the cockpit, a wheel house sot of speak. I don't know the dimensions of the boat. My question is if this sort of modification would be acceptable on a boat the size of Eric, and how that would effect sail plans/stowage of a dingy? and what are your thoughts on such a cabin? it would make travels more pleasant in rough weather commonly encountered in the north seas, but why would one want to be out in rough weather.

                          As I mentioned, it is going to be a few years before I commit the the project. mostly because of the transient nature of my job, I have no space, or at least enough time at any given place to undertake such a project. But I hope to remedy that in the near future. In the meantime it gives me time to do my research and ensure I am headed in the right direction. Thanks again for all your input.

                          Andre


                          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, John Almberg <jalmberg@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Tha big lapstrake double0-ender is pretty cool! I'm finally getting the
                          > hang of lapstrake planking. Just did my first scarf today.
                          >
                          > Nothing more fun than boat building, but I must agree... a lot of
                          > work/dough to build an Eric. My dreams only extend to the 28' Fore an'
                          > Aft :-)
                          >
                          > -- John
                          >
                          > Patrick Blanchard wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Everyone needs a lot of help to build an Eric. You can't build it
                          > > solo. There are seve?ral ways to get help. Have a bare hull built for
                          > > you and take it from there or do like I did and restore one. I did not
                          > > build my Eric, it was built over 10 years by at least 6 people. It
                          > > will take me at least 3 years to restore it, with help.
                          > >
                          > > The boat must match the dream that must match the budget. You can
                          > > quote me on that. Let me explain...
                          > >
                          > > Eric's lines and history are endearing, and it is there that I find
                          > > the strength to work hard when I want to quit. There are some designs
                          > > that do not inspire me to work hard, like Brewer's Tern 32 that
                          > > stalled because it did not match my dream. I can't afford a newly
                          > > finished Eric but I can afford to pay as I go for restoration because
                          > > I have a job doing something else.
                          > >
                          > > You have to start or you will never finish. If you never finish, you
                          > > will not have failed because you learned new skills and understand why
                          > > you want a boat like the Eric.
                          > >
                          > > I cannot think of a more beautiful tender for Eric than the Lynaes
                          > > Dinghy. Both boats come from the same place. The Lynaes was once the
                          > > tender for the rescue boats. She should do everything and more, such
                          > > as kedging or setting anchors in a squall. You can download my loft
                          > > for free. If you want a smaller version, then scale it down before
                          > > printing. Chuck Cole built a 10' version. Good boats scale easily. I
                          > > think he lofted the stations to 12" instead of what is shown in
                          > > Neilson's book, the same book from which I lifted the lines and posted
                          > > the loft for you. I've posted a link for a 15' version too...
                          > >
                          > > *http://tinyurl.com/ydoar62 <http://tinyurl.com/ydoar62>
                          > > **http://tinyurl.com/ye5j336 <http://tinyurl.com/ye5j336>*
                          > >
                          >
                        • John Almberg
                          Pat and I have another thing in common... we both are restoring a bigger boat, rather than building one from scratch. In my case, a Tom Gilmer designed 23
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 15 4:53 AM
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                            Pat and I have another thing in common... we both are restoring a bigger
                            boat, rather than building one from scratch. In my case, a Tom Gilmer
                            designed 23' "Blue Moon" gaff-rigged yawl. I guess we both like Gaffer's
                            too.

                            I also strongly agree with Pat when he says

                            > > Eric's lines and history are endearing, and it is there that I find
                            > > the strength to work hard when I want to quit.

                            There are lots of small boats in the Atkin catalog. I'd suggest you
                            start with something small, but the main thing is to start with a design
                            you really, really love. As Pat says, boat building is hard, but working
                            on a boat you love is an unending source of fun and interest, while
                            working on anything else swiftly turns into endless drudgery.

                            So, you need to choose a design that flips *your* buttons. All we can
                            tell you is what flips *our* buttons.

                            Your questions:

                            1) could you guys give me any insight into sail design. Pat, you
                            mentioned rigging your Eric with a gaff cutter rig. what are the
                            pros/cons of that over the more classic look of the ketch rig as seen
                            the original Colin Archers and fishing vessels all over Norway?

                            I like Gaffers... I think they look great and they fit the type of
                            sailing I do, which is mainly short-handed cruising. All sail plans were
                            perfect for the task they were designed for, so you can't say a cutter
                            is 'better' than a ketch or yawl or schooner, etc... You can only say
                            one sail plan is better at some specific type of sailing than another.

                            The main thing is to have enough sail area... many boats were designed
                            to motor in light winds, so they are dogs in light winds, unless you put
                            up a huge light-air sail. More sail area and more flexibility in
                            adjusting the amount and balance of sails, the better (in general!)

                            2) Pat, you mentioned altering some of the Cabin and deck. In Norway I
                            spent a week, in rough weather, on a boat similar to the Eric (designed
                            after the Colin Archer Redningsskøyte) that had an enclosure around the
                            cockpit, a wheel house sot of speak. I don't know the dimensions of the
                            boat. My question is if this sort of modification would be acceptable on
                            a boat the size of Eric, and how that would effect sail plans/stowage of
                            a dingy? and what are your thoughts on such a cabin?

                            I always say that "sailing is a water sport". Getting wet is part of the
                            game :-)

                            This is one of those personal issues... some people love dodgers and
                            other enclosures, and if I fished out in the North Sea every day, I'd
                            have a darn good one, with a stove! But that's an extreme example. For
                            the kind of sailing most people do, its not necessary. I personally
                            don't like to have an overhead obstruction between me and the sails.
                            It's pretty darn hard to trim sails if you can't see them.

                            What I do instead is use self-steering gear to steer the boat, so I can
                            duck below to brew up a hot cup of tea, or sit in the warmest/dryest
                            part of the cockpit while on watch, instead of being tied to the tiller,
                            exposed to the wind/rain/spray.

                            If I really wanted a boat with a big dog house or wheel house, I'd
                            probably choose a boat that was designed with one. A good designer can
                            integrate a big house into the design so the lines look right. Tacked-on
                            dog houses look tacked on.

                            I don't think the Atkins designed any sail boats with dog houses...
                            Actually, I can't think of any classic design with them, but take a look
                            at "Little Bear". Not an ocean going sailboat, but relatively easy to
                            build, and I bet she'd be snug and comfy in wet weather if you had a
                            cabin heater.

                            3). why would one want to be out in rough weather?

                            Because, sometimes you have no choice :-)

                            -- John
                          • Patrick Blanchard
                            The Lynaes dinghy is like a little bitty Eric, and probably why I ve accepted if I never launch my Eric, I ll have a great dink to grow old with and pass on to
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 15 10:48 AM
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                              The Lynaes dinghy is like a little bitty Eric, and probably why I've accepted if I never launch my Eric, I'll have a great dink to grow old with and pass on to my children. It would be fun to take on weekenders down the Mississippi. It would provision and portage nicely. My children might just finish the Eric if I can't. The Lynaes dinghy makes for a fine contingency plan in more ways than one...

                              I don't believe the market hype for inflatables or lifeboats. Inflatables are unreliable and overpriced. Read about the Hobart race as one example of many. It would be foolish to buy one if you plan to voyage across the planet in your Eric. An inflatable will be either stolen or knifed and besides you will stick out like a sore thumb in a developing country. You can't row an inflatable, let alone sail one. History has many lessons for us, and the Lynaes dinghy is history incarnate, born from the deaths of hundreds at sea. There was compelling interest to seek the design of the Lynaes dinghy because everyone was sick of drowning. It will be my lifeboat and no other onboard the Eric. The Lynaes will teach you to sail, to row, to anchor, to scull, to capsize, to heave-to. This is in part why I call it the itty bitty Eric. What you learn on it will prepare you for the 10 ton Eric.

                              Here is how to make a triple sawn timber...fine for the Lynaes Dinghy keel.

                              *********************
                              Member
                               
                              Join Date: Jul 2008
                              Posts: 97
                              Default Re: Resorcinol glue

                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
                              Does the paper in any way weaken the joint? Or since its cellulose mosty, does it become amalgamated (?) with the glue/wood?
                              The construction paper strips soak in the resorcinol and are saturated. If there is weakening it won't be as much as glue starvation with a tight laminate bend, the alternative.

                              This construction paper strip technique was used two years ago on kiln dried white oak 3/4" strips and overclamped. The glued board was tossed outside and has weathered rain, sun, hot dry wind, bare soil (all kinds of critters) for two seasons. The glue line is stronger than the white oak and there was no rot in the oak. It took a sledge hammer to break it. I don't believe all the talk about white oak not taking glue. Epoxy maybe, but not resorcinol. You don't need to fiddle with the pH of the white oak either.

                              It is difficult to find large timbers for classic boat construction. I invented a "triple sawn timber", using kiln dried white oak, sipo tenons and resorcinol. Take 3 4/4 x 12" kiln dried white oak (or any hardwood or combination of woods for that matter) and plane to 7/8". Lay your board for grain and knots for your final timber, taking advantage of the grain. When finished, label the center board sides A and B, respectively. Cut the center board mortise (I use the Festool tenon tool and sipo tenons) through. Place the center template and mark the side boards internally and cut the mortise to just under 7/16" depth. Use resorcinol and construction paper strips for gluing. My clamps are 50 lb lead pigs on the top board. Final thickness is just over 2.5". Continue laminating up for as much height as needed, using a new through-cut mortise template and a final cap board. You never see the tenons if you lay them properly according to your loft.

                              You have a very very strong triple sawn timber for double sawn frames, keels, knees...anything you need for classic wooden boat construction. You also use almost all the wood so it is eco friendly(er) than most other techniques. Also, the tight bends with thin strip lamination have always worried me (hence the construction paper strip technique) for frames and backbone. I cannot think of a stronger timber than one constructed in the triple sawn timber described above.

                              This triple sawn timber technique can be scaled for whatever timber you need, big boat or little boat. For example, my Lynaes dinghy keel will have a central white oak layer with 2 outer layer hackberry boards for the 11 foot keel.

                              You must glue in the summer if outside like I am (under a greenhouse). It's the only way to get bigger timbers. Electric blankets do not soak enough heat into the larger timbers. I've used Aerodux and think it is overrated. You just have to wait for the right season.

                              Just a note on the bigger timbers and keels... It is probably better to make a triple sawn timbers according to the plans and then bolt them accordingly. Anything wider than 12" will require width lamination. For a 14" wide timber I would alternate a 9" wide and 5" wide timber, flipping the join line for a 4 " overlap. This way I can use the inexpensive and plentiful Kansas white oak from the sawmill down the road. It is not easy to find 14" wide boards and those usually have soft wood on the edges. For long lengths, stagger the joins within the 3 layers as recommended in the expert text books on lamination. Bed and bolt the timbers for the keel. I think it would be foolish to laminate an entire keel of a moderate cruiser for example.
                              __________________


                              Last edited by patrick.blanchard; 03-08-2010 at 05:25 PM. Reason: combined 2 posts
                              ***********************

                              On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:00 PM, aschm078 <aschm078@...> wrote:
                               

                              Thank you guys for all your input. Patrick for your positive attitude! and John for being realistic, you guys sort of balance each other out. I am a wildland firefighter, it is my job to look at what others may think impossible, and to get it done. Without an attitude like Patrick, Much would not be accomplished. but also preparation that John is suggesting, makes accomplishing the impossible well within the realm of reality.

                              In terms of what to use as a Tender. I would like to build something that is practical. In the event that Eric never gets built, I would like to have not built something that will never get used. and a concern of mine with the Katydidnt is that it says that it is unstable and shouldn't be used as a lifeboat. If I am to tote it onboard a boat where space is limited, I want something that can ferry passengers back and forth, be stable and usable as a lifeboat for all passengers (4), and even throw up a sail would be nice.

                              Patrick, would you have an idea as to the max length dingy stow-able onboard the Eric?

                              As I mentioned, I am still in the planning/research phase of my future project, all starting ten years ago on a trip to Norway. I am not a sailor, nor have I spent much time on the water in anything other than a canoe. as such I have two questions for now 1) could you guys give me any insight into sail design. Pat, you mentioned rigging your Eric with a gaff cutter rig. what are the pros/cons of that over the more classic look of the ketch rig as seen the original Colin Archers and fishing vessels all over Norway? 2) Pat, you mentioned altering some of the Cabin and deck. In Norway I spent a week, in rough weather, on a boat similar to the Eric (designed after the Colin Archer Redningsskøyte) that had an enclosure around the cockpit, a wheel house sot of speak. I don't know the dimensions of the boat. My question is if this sort of modification would be acceptable on a boat the size of Eric, and how that would effect sail plans/stowage of a dingy? and what are your thoughts on such a cabin? it would make travels more pleasant in rough weather commonly encountered in the north seas, but why would one want to be out in rough weather.

                              As I mentioned, it is going to be a few years before I commit the the project. mostly because of the transient nature of my job, I have no space, or at least enough time at any given place to undertake such a project. But I hope to remedy that in the near future. In the meantime it gives me time to do my research and ensure I am headed in the right direction. Thanks again for all your input.

                              Andre


                              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, John Almberg <jalmberg@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Tha big lapstrake double0-ender is pretty cool! I'm finally getting the
                              > hang of lapstrake planking. Just did my first scarf today.
                              >
                              > Nothing more fun than boat building, but I must agree... a lot of
                              > work/dough to build an Eric. My dreams only extend to the 28' Fore an'
                              > Aft :-)
                              >
                              > -- John


                              >
                              > Patrick Blanchard wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Everyone needs a lot of help to build an Eric. You can't build it
                              > > solo. There are seve?ral ways to get help. Have a bare hull built for
                              > > you and take it from there or do like I did and restore one. I did not
                              > > build my Eric, it was built over 10 years by at least 6 people. It
                              > > will take me at least 3 years to restore it, with help.
                              > >
                              > > The boat must match the dream that must match the budget. You can
                              > > quote me on that. Let me explain...
                              > >
                              > > Eric's lines and history are endearing, and it is there that I find
                              > > the strength to work hard when I want to quit. There are some designs
                              > > that do not inspire me to work hard, like Brewer's Tern 32 that
                              > > stalled because it did not match my dream. I can't afford a newly
                              > > finished Eric but I can afford to pay as I go for restoration because
                              > > I have a job doing something else.
                              > >
                              > > You have to start or you will never finish. If you never finish, you
                              > > will not have failed because you learned new skills and understand why
                              > > you want a boat like the Eric.
                              > >
                              > > I cannot think of a more beautiful tender for Eric than the Lynaes
                              > > Dinghy. Both boats come from the same place. The Lynaes was once the
                              > > tender for the rescue boats. She should do everything and more, such
                              > > as kedging or setting anchors in a squall. You can download my loft
                              > > for free. If you want a smaller version, then scale it down before
                              > > printing. Chuck Cole built a 10' version. Good boats scale easily. I
                              > > think he lofted the stations to 12" instead of what is shown in
                              > > Neilson's book, the same book from which I lifted the lines and posted
                              > > the loft for you. I've posted a link for a 15' version too...
                              > >
                              > > *http://tinyurl.com/ydoar62 <http://tinyurl.com/ydoar62>
                              > > **http://tinyurl.com/ye5j336 <http://tinyurl.com/ye5j336>*
                              > >
                              >


                            • aschm078
                              I am liking the sound of the Lyaes dinghy. Just a question related to scale. How long of a dinghy is stowable onboard the Eric? As for sail design, correct
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 15 2:20 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I am liking the sound of the Lyaes dinghy. Just a question related to scale. How long of a dinghy is stowable onboard the Eric?

                                As for sail design, correct me if I'm wrong. John was saying that every sail pattern was designed to serve some function. By looking at the ketch I would assume, that it would be more maneuverable in tight quarters (in the days predating auxiliary engines), due to the number of sails and the multiple combination of deploying them. I would also assume that due to the number of sails, that it would take more manpower or atleast be more complex to sail. am I correct in any of these assumptions? or what are the pro/cons to ketch rig vs your gaff cutter rig? I personally like the Ketch as it is more in keeping the the original design, but ease of sailing is also important to me.

                                that is cool that you guys have found older boats to work on and repair. The problem with that is that I am sold on Colin Archer design, for its history, shape, and reputation as a solid safe ship in whatever is handed to it. I can't imagine that it would be easy finding an affordable ship of such specs to work on.

                                here is a link to some similar boats, some of them have the wheelhouse that I was speaking of earlier. John had some good points for not having one. Either way as you can see, none of these boats are exceptionally cheep. (I believe they are listed in Norwegian Kroner)
                                http://www.finn.no/finn/boat/used/result

                                now while I do not come from a sailing background, I am deeply interested in having the ability to travel with minimal dependence on fuel. and I am definitely interested in building my own from scratch, as I take pride in what I do, and that would be a hell of an accomplishment.

                                Thanks again for the info. where did you post the plans for the Lynaes dinghy again?

                                Andre


                                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Blanchard <kd0dvh@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > The Lynaes dinghy is like a little bitty Eric, and probably why I've
                                > accepted if I never launch my Eric, I'll have a great dink to grow old with
                                > and pass on to my children. It would be fun to take on weekenders down the
                                > Mississippi. It would provision and portage nicely. My children might just
                                > finish the Eric if I can't. The Lynaes dinghy makes for a fine contingency
                                > plan in more ways than one...
                                >
                                > I don't believe the market hype for inflatables or lifeboats. Inflatables
                                > are unreliable and overpriced. Read about the Hobart race as one example of
                                > many. It would be foolish to buy one if you plan to voyage across the planet
                                > in your Eric. An inflatable will be either stolen or knifed and besides you
                                > will stick out like a sore thumb in a developing country. You can't row an
                                > inflatable, let alone sail one. History has many lessons for us, and the
                                > Lynaes dinghy is history incarnate, born from the deaths of hundreds at sea.
                                > There was compelling interest to seek the design of the Lynaes dinghy
                                > because everyone was sick of drowning. It will be my lifeboat and no other
                                > onboard the Eric. The Lynaes will teach you to sail, to row, to anchor, to
                                > scull, to capsize, to heave-to. This is in part why I call it the itty bitty
                                > Eric. What you learn on it will prepare you for the 10 ton Eric.
                                >
                                > Here is how to make a triple sawn timber...fine for the Lynaes Dinghy keel.
                                >
                                > *********************
                                > Patrick.blanchard <http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/member.php?u=21227> [image:
                                > patrick.blanchard is offline]
                                > Member
                                >
                                > Join Date: Jul 2008
                                > Posts: 97
                                > [image: Default] *Re: Resorcinol glue*
                                > ------------------------------
                                > Quote:
                                > Originally Posted by *Breakaway* [image: View
                                > Post]<http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2514667#post2514667>
                                > Does the paper in any way weaken the joint? Or since its cellulose mosty,
                                > does it become amalgamated (?) with the glue/wood?
                                > The construction paper strips soak in the resorcinol and are saturated. If
                                > there is weakening it won't be as much as glue starvation with a tight
                                > laminate bend, the alternative.
                                >
                                > This construction paper strip technique was used two years ago on kiln dried
                                > white oak 3/4" strips and overclamped. The glued board was tossed outside
                                > and has weathered rain, sun, hot dry wind, bare soil (all kinds of critters)
                                > for two seasons. The glue line is stronger than the white oak and there was
                                > no rot in the oak. It took a sledge hammer to break it. I don't believe all
                                > the talk about white oak not taking glue. Epoxy maybe, but not resorcinol.
                                > You don't need to fiddle with the pH of the white oak either.
                                >
                                > It is difficult to find large timbers for classic boat construction. I
                                > invented a "triple sawn timber", using kiln dried white oak, sipo tenons and
                                > resorcinol. Take 3 4/4 x 12" kiln dried white oak (or any hardwood or
                                > combination of woods for that matter) and plane to 7/8". Lay your board for
                                > grain and knots for your final timber, taking advantage of the grain. When
                                > finished, label the center board sides A and B, respectively. Cut the center
                                > board mortise (I use the Festool tenon tool and sipo tenons) through. Place
                                > the center template and mark the side boards internally and cut the mortise
                                > to just under 7/16" depth. Use resorcinol and construction paper strips for
                                > gluing. My clamps are 50 lb lead pigs on the top board. Final thickness is
                                > just over 2.5". Continue laminating up for as much height as needed, using a
                                > new through-cut mortise template and a final cap board. You never see the
                                > tenons if you lay them properly according to your loft.
                                >
                                > You have a very very strong triple sawn timber for double sawn frames,
                                > keels, knees...anything you need for classic wooden boat construction. You
                                > also use almost all the wood so it is eco friendly(er) than most other
                                > techniques. Also, the tight bends with thin strip lamination have always
                                > worried me (hence the construction paper strip technique) for frames and
                                > backbone. I cannot think of a stronger timber than one constructed in the
                                > triple sawn timber described above.
                                >
                                > This triple sawn timber technique can be scaled for whatever timber you
                                > need, big boat or little boat. For example, my Lynaes dinghy keel will have
                                > a central white oak layer with 2 outer layer hackberry boards for the 11
                                > foot keel.
                                >
                                > You must glue in the summer if outside like I am (under a greenhouse). It's
                                > the only way to get bigger timbers. Electric blankets do not soak enough
                                > heat into the larger timbers. I've used Aerodux and think it is overrated.
                                > You just have to wait for the right season.
                                >
                                > Just a note on the bigger timbers and keels... It is probably better to make
                                > a triple sawn timbers according to the plans and then bolt them accordingly.
                                > Anything wider than 12" will require width lamination. For a 14" wide timber
                                > I would alternate a 9" wide and 5" wide timber, flipping the join line for a
                                > 4 " overlap. This way I can use the inexpensive and plentiful Kansas white
                                > oak from the sawmill down the road. It is not easy to find 14" wide boards
                                > and those usually have soft wood on the edges. For long lengths, stagger the
                                > joins within the 3 layers as recommended in the expert text books on
                                > lamination. Bed and bolt the timbers for the keel. I think it would be
                                > foolish to laminate an entire keel of a moderate cruiser for example.
                                > __________________
                                >
                                > <http://picasaweb.google.com/kd0dvh>
                                > ------------------------------
                                > * Last edited by patrick.blanchard; 03-08-2010 at 05:25 PM. Reason: combined
                                > 2 posts *
                                > ***********************
                                >
                                > On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:00 PM, aschm078 <aschm078@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Thank you guys for all your input. Patrick for your positive attitude! and
                                > > John for being realistic, you guys sort of balance each other out. I am a
                                > > wildland firefighter, it is my job to look at what others may think
                                > > impossible, and to get it done. Without an attitude like Patrick, Much would
                                > > not be accomplished. but also preparation that John is suggesting, makes
                                > > accomplishing the impossible well within the realm of reality.
                                > >
                                > > In terms of what to use as a Tender. I would like to build something that
                                > > is practical. In the event that Eric never gets built, I would like to have
                                > > not built something that will never get used. and a concern of mine with the
                                > > Katydidnt is that it says that it is unstable and shouldn't be used as a
                                > > lifeboat. If I am to tote it onboard a boat where space is limited, I want
                                > > something that can ferry passengers back and forth, be stable and usable as
                                > > a lifeboat for all passengers (4), and even throw up a sail would be nice.
                                > >
                                > > Patrick, would you have an idea as to the max length dingy stow-able
                                > > onboard the Eric?
                                > >
                                > > As I mentioned, I am still in the planning/research phase of my future
                                > > project, all starting ten years ago on a trip to Norway. I am not a sailor,
                                > > nor have I spent much time on the water in anything other than a canoe. as
                                > > such I have two questions for now 1) could you guys give me any insight into
                                > > sail design. Pat, you mentioned rigging your Eric with a gaff cutter rig.
                                > > what are the pros/cons of that over the more classic look of the ketch rig
                                > > as seen the original Colin Archers and fishing vessels all over Norway? 2)
                                > > Pat, you mentioned altering some of the Cabin and deck. In Norway I spent a
                                > > week, in rough weather, on a boat similar to the Eric (designed after the
                                > > Colin Archer Redningsskøyte) that had an enclosure around the cockpit, a
                                > > wheel house sot of speak. I don't know the dimensions of the boat. My
                                > > question is if this sort of modification would be acceptable on a boat the
                                > > size of Eric, and how that would effect sail plans/stowage of a dingy? and
                                > > what are your thoughts on such a cabin? it would make travels more pleasant
                                > > in rough weather commonly encountered in the north seas, but why would one
                                > > want to be out in rough weather.
                                > >
                                > > As I mentioned, it is going to be a few years before I commit the the
                                > > project. mostly because of the transient nature of my job, I have no space,
                                > > or at least enough time at any given place to undertake such a project. But
                                > > I hope to remedy that in the near future. In the meantime it gives me time
                                > > to do my research and ensure I am headed in the right direction. Thanks
                                > > again for all your input.
                                > >
                                > > Andre
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com <AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com>, John
                                > > Almberg <jalmberg@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Tha big lapstrake double0-ender is pretty cool! I'm finally getting the
                                > > > hang of lapstrake planking. Just did my first scarf today.
                                > > >
                                > > > Nothing more fun than boat building, but I must agree... a lot of
                                > > > work/dough to build an Eric. My dreams only extend to the 28' Fore an'
                                > > > Aft :-)
                                > > >
                                > > > -- John
                                > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Patrick Blanchard wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Everyone needs a lot of help to build an Eric. You can't build it
                                > > > > solo. There are seve?ral ways to get help. Have a bare hull built for
                                > > > > you and take it from there or do like I did and restore one. I did not
                                > > > > build my Eric, it was built over 10 years by at least 6 people. It
                                > > > > will take me at least 3 years to restore it, with help.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The boat must match the dream that must match the budget. You can
                                > > > > quote me on that. Let me explain...
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Eric's lines and history are endearing, and it is there that I find
                                > > > > the strength to work hard when I want to quit. There are some designs
                                > > > > that do not inspire me to work hard, like Brewer's Tern 32 that
                                > > > > stalled because it did not match my dream. I can't afford a newly
                                > > > > finished Eric but I can afford to pay as I go for restoration because
                                > > > > I have a job doing something else.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > You have to start or you will never finish. If you never finish, you
                                > > > > will not have failed because you learned new skills and understand why
                                > > > > you want a boat like the Eric.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I cannot think of a more beautiful tender for Eric than the Lynaes
                                > > > > Dinghy. Both boats come from the same place. The Lynaes was once the
                                > > > > tender for the rescue boats. She should do everything and more, such
                                > > > > as kedging or setting anchors in a squall. You can download my loft
                                > > > > for free. If you want a smaller version, then scale it down before
                                > > > > printing. Chuck Cole built a 10' version. Good boats scale easily. I
                                > > > > think he lofted the stations to 12" instead of what is shown in
                                > > > > Neilson's book, the same book from which I lifted the lines and posted
                                > > > > the loft for you. I've posted a link for a 15' version too...
                                > > > >
                                > > > > *http://tinyurl.com/ydoar62 <http://tinyurl.com/ydoar62>
                                > > > > **http://tinyurl.com/ye5j336 <http://tinyurl.com/ye5j336>*
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • John Almberg
                                ... That s like saying there s a shortage of kittens. There are millions of boats for sale at this very moment.
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 15 7:20 PM
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  that is cool that you guys have found older boats to work on and repair. The problem with that is that I am sold on Colin Archer design, for its history, shape, and reputation as a solid safe ship in whatever is handed to it. I can't imagine that it would be easy finding an affordable ship of such specs to work on.

                                  That's like saying there's a shortage of kittens. There are millions of boats for sale at this very moment.

                                  http://www.ladyben.com/SearchResultsFull.asp?VesselID=3140


                                • Patrick Blanchard
                                  The largest stowable Lynaes dinghy size atop Eric s deck and not davits (bad idea) could be as long as what space you have between mast and stern if rigged as
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 17 10:59 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    The largest stowable Lynaes dinghy size atop Eric's deck and not davits (bad idea) could be as long as what space you have between mast and stern if rigged as a gaff cutter, or between masts if rigged as a ketch. For me, more than 12 feet gets uncomfortable. I might build the Lynaes dinghy anywhere between 10 feet and 12 feet.

                                    Many would state that the gaff cutter, especially with reefs sewn accordingly is the sail plan most in alignment with worldwide serious voyaging, something the Eric is capable of delivering. I will make my own sails and personally think the gaff cutter is the simplest and most dependable and easiest sailplan for single or short crewed handling overall. Slow, and not theoretically best for windward, I think good seamanship will more than cover the difference in performance. Very few if any additional sails to store below and really only spares, which means more space below deck. The 15' Lynaes dinghy mentioned earlier is rigged as a gaff cutter, making for excellent training in preparation for the same sailplan as the much larger Eric.

                                    You will find the Lynaes Dinghy loft here
                                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/headsqueeze/3392889795/in/set-72157613618925738/


                                    On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:20 PM, aschm078 <aschm078@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    I am liking the sound of the Lyaes dinghy. Just a question related to scale. How long of a dinghy is stowable onboard the Eric?

                                    As for sail design, correct me if I'm wrong. John was saying that every sail pattern was designed to serve some function. By looking at the ketch I would assume, that it would be more maneuverable in tight quarters (in the days predating auxiliary engines), due to the number of sails and the multiple combination of deploying them. I would also assume that due to the number of sails, that it would take more manpower or atleast be more complex to sail. am I correct in any of these assumptions? or what are the pro/cons to ketch rig vs your gaff cutter rig? I personally like the Ketch as it is more in keeping the the original design, but ease of sailing is also important to me.

                                    that is cool that you guys have found older boats to work on and repair. The problem with that is that I am sold on Colin Archer design, for its history, shape, and reputation as a solid safe ship in whatever is handed to it. I can't imagine that it would be easy finding an affordable ship of such specs to work on.

                                    here is a link to some similar boats, some of them have the wheelhouse that I was speaking of earlier. John had some good points for not having one. Either way as you can see, none of these boats are exceptionally cheep. (I believe they are listed in Norwegian Kroner)
                                    http://www.finn.no/finn/boat/used/result

                                    now while I do not come from a sailing background, I am deeply interested in having the ability to travel with minimal dependence on fuel. and I am definitely interested in building my own from scratch, as I take pride in what I do, and that would be a hell of an accomplishment.

                                    Thanks again for the info. where did you post the plans for the Lynaes dinghy again?

                                    Andre



                                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Blanchard <kd0dvh@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > The Lynaes dinghy is like a little bitty Eric, and probably why I've
                                    > accepted if I never launch my Eric, I'll have a great dink to grow old with
                                    > and pass on to my children. It would be fun to take on weekenders down the
                                    > Mississippi. It would provision and portage nicely. My children might just
                                    > finish the Eric if I can't. The Lynaes dinghy makes for a fine contingency
                                    > plan in more ways than one...
                                    >
                                    > I don't believe the market hype for inflatables or lifeboats. Inflatables
                                    > are unreliable and overpriced. Read about the Hobart race as one example of
                                    > many. It would be foolish to buy one if you plan to voyage across the planet
                                    > in your Eric. An inflatable will be either stolen or knifed and besides you
                                    > will stick out like a sore thumb in a developing country. You can't row an
                                    > inflatable, let alone sail one. History has many lessons for us, and the
                                    > Lynaes dinghy is history incarnate, born from the deaths of hundreds at sea.
                                    > There was compelling interest to seek the design of the Lynaes dinghy
                                    > because everyone was sick of drowning. It will be my lifeboat and no other
                                    > onboard the Eric. The Lynaes will teach you to sail, to row, to anchor, to
                                    > scull, to capsize, to heave-to. This is in part why I call it the itty bitty
                                    > Eric. What you learn on it will prepare you for the 10 ton Eric.
                                    >
                                    > Here is how to make a triple sawn timber...fine for the Lynaes Dinghy keel.
                                    >
                                    > *********************
                                    > Patrick.blanchard <http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/member.php?u=21227> [image:

                                    > patrick.blanchard is offline]
                                    > Member
                                    >
                                    > Join Date: Jul 2008
                                    > Posts: 97
                                    > [image: Default] *Re: Resorcinol glue*
                                    > ------------------------------
                                    > Quote:
                                    > Originally Posted by *Breakaway* [image: View
                                    > Post]<http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2514667#post2514667>

                                    > Does the paper in any way weaken the joint? Or since its cellulose mosty,
                                    > does it become amalgamated (?) with the glue/wood?
                                    > The construction paper strips soak in the resorcinol and are saturated. If
                                    > there is weakening it won't be as much as glue starvation with a tight
                                    > laminate bend, the alternative.
                                    >
                                    > This construction paper strip technique was used two years ago on kiln dried
                                    > white oak 3/4" strips and overclamped. The glued board was tossed outside
                                    > and has weathered rain, sun, hot dry wind, bare soil (all kinds of critters)
                                    > for two seasons. The glue line is stronger than the white oak and there was
                                    > no rot in the oak. It took a sledge hammer to break it. I don't believe all
                                    > the talk about white oak not taking glue. Epoxy maybe, but not resorcinol.
                                    > You don't need to fiddle with the pH of the white oak either.
                                    >
                                    > It is difficult to find large timbers for classic boat construction. I
                                    > invented a "triple sawn timber", using kiln dried white oak, sipo tenons and
                                    > resorcinol. Take 3 4/4 x 12" kiln dried white oak (or any hardwood or
                                    > combination of woods for that matter) and plane to 7/8". Lay your board for
                                    > grain and knots for your final timber, taking advantage of the grain. When
                                    > finished, label the center board sides A and B, respectively. Cut the center
                                    > board mortise (I use the Festool tenon tool and sipo tenons) through. Place
                                    > the center template and mark the side boards internally and cut the mortise
                                    > to just under 7/16" depth. Use resorcinol and construction paper strips for
                                    > gluing. My clamps are 50 lb lead pigs on the top board. Final thickness is
                                    > just over 2.5". Continue laminating up for as much height as needed, using a
                                    > new through-cut mortise template and a final cap board. You never see the
                                    > tenons if you lay them properly according to your loft.
                                    >
                                    > You have a very very strong triple sawn timber for double sawn frames,
                                    > keels, knees...anything you need for classic wooden boat construction. You
                                    > also use almost all the wood so it is eco friendly(er) than most other
                                    > techniques. Also, the tight bends with thin strip lamination have always
                                    > worried me (hence the construction paper strip technique) for frames and
                                    > backbone. I cannot think of a stronger timber than one constructed in the
                                    > triple sawn timber described above.
                                    >
                                    > This triple sawn timber technique can be scaled for whatever timber you
                                    > need, big boat or little boat. For example, my Lynaes dinghy keel will have
                                    > a central white oak layer with 2 outer layer hackberry boards for the 11
                                    > foot keel.
                                    >
                                    > You must glue in the summer if outside like I am (under a greenhouse). It's
                                    > the only way to get bigger timbers. Electric blankets do not soak enough
                                    > heat into the larger timbers. I've used Aerodux and think it is overrated.
                                    > You just have to wait for the right season.
                                    >
                                    > Just a note on the bigger timbers and keels... It is probably better to make
                                    > a triple sawn timbers according to the plans and then bolt them accordingly.
                                    > Anything wider than 12" will require width lamination. For a 14" wide timber
                                    > I would alternate a 9" wide and 5" wide timber, flipping the join line for a
                                    > 4 " overlap. This way I can use the inexpensive and plentiful Kansas white
                                    > oak from the sawmill down the road. It is not easy to find 14" wide boards
                                    > and those usually have soft wood on the edges. For long lengths, stagger the
                                    > joins within the 3 layers as recommended in the expert text books on
                                    > lamination. Bed and bolt the timbers for the keel. I think it would be
                                    > foolish to laminate an entire keel of a moderate cruiser for example.
                                    > __________________
                                    >
                                    > <http://picasaweb.google.com/kd0dvh>
                                    > ------------------------------
                                    > * Last edited by patrick.blanchard; 03-08-2010 at 05:25 PM. Reason: combined
                                    > 2 posts *
                                    > ***********************

                                    >
                                    > On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:00 PM, aschm078 <aschm078@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Thank you guys for all your input. Patrick for your positive attitude! and
                                    > > John for being realistic, you guys sort of balance each other out. I am a
                                    > > wildland firefighter, it is my job to look at what others may think
                                    > > impossible, and to get it done. Without an attitude like Patrick, Much would
                                    > > not be accomplished. but also preparation that John is suggesting, makes
                                    > > accomplishing the impossible well within the realm of reality.
                                    > >
                                    > > In terms of what to use as a Tender. I would like to build something that
                                    > > is practical. In the event that Eric never gets built, I would like to have
                                    > > not built something that will never get used. and a concern of mine with the
                                    > > Katydidnt is that it says that it is unstable and shouldn't be used as a
                                    > > lifeboat. If I am to tote it onboard a boat where space is limited, I want
                                    > > something that can ferry passengers back and forth, be stable and usable as
                                    > > a lifeboat for all passengers (4), and even throw up a sail would be nice.
                                    > >
                                    > > Patrick, would you have an idea as to the max length dingy stow-able
                                    > > onboard the Eric?
                                    > >
                                    > > As I mentioned, I am still in the planning/research phase of my future
                                    > > project, all starting ten years ago on a trip to Norway. I am not a sailor,
                                    > > nor have I spent much time on the water in anything other than a canoe. as
                                    > > such I have two questions for now 1) could you guys give me any insight into
                                    > > sail design. Pat, you mentioned rigging your Eric with a gaff cutter rig.
                                    > > what are the pros/cons of that over the more classic look of the ketch rig
                                    > > as seen the original Colin Archers and fishing vessels all over Norway? 2)
                                    > > Pat, you mentioned altering some of the Cabin and deck. In Norway I spent a
                                    > > week, in rough weather, on a boat similar to the Eric (designed after the
                                    > > Colin Archer Redningsskøyte) that had an enclosure around the cockpit, a
                                    > > wheel house sot of speak. I don't know the dimensions of the boat. My
                                    > > question is if this sort of modification would be acceptable on a boat the
                                    > > size of Eric, and how that would effect sail plans/stowage of a dingy? and
                                    > > what are your thoughts on such a cabin? it would make travels more pleasant
                                    > > in rough weather commonly encountered in the north seas, but why would one
                                    > > want to be out in rough weather.
                                    > >
                                    > > As I mentioned, it is going to be a few years before I commit the the
                                    > > project. mostly because of the transient nature of my job, I have no space,
                                    > > or at least enough time at any given place to undertake such a project. But
                                    > > I hope to remedy that in the near future. In the meantime it gives me time
                                    > > to do my research and ensure I am headed in the right direction. Thanks
                                    > > again for all your input.
                                    > >
                                    > > Andre
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com <AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com>, John

                                    > > Almberg <jalmberg@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Tha big lapstrake double0-ender is pretty cool! I'm finally getting the
                                    > > > hang of lapstrake planking. Just did my first scarf today.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Nothing more fun than boat building, but I must agree... a lot of
                                    > > > work/dough to build an Eric. My dreams only extend to the 28' Fore an'
                                    > > > Aft :-)
                                    > > >
                                    > > > -- John
                                    > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Patrick Blanchard wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Everyone needs a lot of help to build an Eric. You can't build it
                                    > > > > solo. There are seve?ral ways to get help. Have a bare hull built for
                                    > > > > you and take it from there or do like I did and restore one. I did not
                                    > > > > build my Eric, it was built over 10 years by at least 6 people. It
                                    > > > > will take me at least 3 years to restore it, with help.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > The boat must match the dream that must match the budget. You can
                                    > > > > quote me on that. Let me explain...
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Eric's lines and history are endearing, and it is there that I find
                                    > > > > the strength to work hard when I want to quit. There are some designs
                                    > > > > that do not inspire me to work hard, like Brewer's Tern 32 that
                                    > > > > stalled because it did not match my dream. I can't afford a newly
                                    > > > > finished Eric but I can afford to pay as I go for restoration because
                                    > > > > I have a job doing something else.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > You have to start or you will never finish. If you never finish, you
                                    > > > > will not have failed because you learned new skills and understand why
                                    > > > > you want a boat like the Eric.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I cannot think of a more beautiful tender for Eric than the Lynaes
                                    > > > > Dinghy. Both boats come from the same place. The Lynaes was once the
                                    > > > > tender for the rescue boats. She should do everything and more, such
                                    > > > > as kedging or setting anchors in a squall. You can download my loft
                                    > > > > for free. If you want a smaller version, then scale it down before
                                    > > > > printing. Chuck Cole built a 10' version. Good boats scale easily. I
                                    > > > > think he lofted the stations to 12" instead of what is shown in
                                    > > > > Neilson's book, the same book from which I lifted the lines and posted
                                    > > > > the loft for you. I've posted a link for a 15' version too...
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > *http://tinyurl.com/ydoar62 <http://tinyurl.com/ydoar62>
                                    > > > > **http://tinyurl.com/ye5j336 <http://tinyurl.com/ye5j336>*
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >


                                  • Patrick Blanchard
                                    Not to confuse the matter, but it is worth mentioning the Adirondack guidboat alongside the Eric. The Eric can take its owner to remote sites across oceans. An
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 18 10:08 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Not to confuse the matter, but it is worth mentioning the Adirondack guidboat alongside the Eric. The Eric can take its owner to remote sites across oceans. An exploration boat could then take the owner into inland rivers and lakes. Provisioning an ocean cruiser with an exploration boat is a concept that predates the Eric, but has been lost by way of the modern concept of cruising from marina to marina and getting off the well trodden path.

                                      The Adirondack guideboat's history and evolution as an exploration boat is fascinating. It shares the history of trial and error alongside the Lynaes Dinghy but for inland waters instead. However, it is fragile and long and much too light to be considered as a tender for the Eric. It would not serve well as a lifeboat and would be dangerous when removed from protected waters.

                                      Most inland water exploration occurs with the canoe. Mainstreaming the canoe into its role was a mistake, turning many away from the joys of navigating small rivers and lakes. Find one compelling story to choose a canoe and you will find three more describing the drudgery of a swamped boat.

                                      The Lynaes Dinghy, on the other hand can serve its owner well as an exploration boat for inland waters if provisioned properly and if portaged with a small cart. A simple tent for the Lynaes is easy to build, just like a lean-to. I cannot imagine the cart and tent would take but little space below deck the Eric. A small paraffin single burner stove could be used for heat under the tent with proper ventilation and for cooking of course.

                                      With a bit of extra work, fitting the Lynaes dinghy atop Eric's deck is an exciting proposition.


                                      On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Patrick Blanchard <kd0dvh@...> wrote:
                                      The largest stowable Lynaes dinghy size atop Eric's deck and not davits (bad idea) could be as long as what space you have between mast and stern if rigged as a gaff cutter, or between masts if rigged as a ketch. For me, more than 12 feet gets uncomfortable. I might build the Lynaes dinghy anywhere between 10 feet and 12 feet.

                                      Many would state that the gaff cutter, especially with reefs sewn accordingly is the sail plan most in alignment with worldwide serious voyaging, something the Eric is capable of delivering. I will make my own sails and personally think the gaff cutter is the simplest and most dependable and easiest sailplan for single or short crewed handling overall. Slow, and not theoretically best for windward, I think good seamanship will more than cover the difference in performance. Very few if any additional sails to store below and really only spares, which means more space below deck. The 15' Lynaes dinghy mentioned earlier is rigged as a gaff cutter, making for excellent training in preparation for the same sailplan as the much larger Eric.

                                      You will find the Lynaes Dinghy loft here
                                      http://www.flickr.com/photos/headsqueeze/3392889795/in/set-72157613618925738/



                                      On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:20 PM, aschm078 <aschm078@...> wrote:
                                       

                                      I am liking the sound of the Lyaes dinghy. Just a question related to scale. How long of a dinghy is stowable onboard the Eric?

                                      As for sail design, correct me if I'm wrong. John was saying that every sail pattern was designed to serve some function. By looking at the ketch I would assume, that it would be more maneuverable in tight quarters (in the days predating auxiliary engines), due to the number of sails and the multiple combination of deploying them. I would also assume that due to the number of sails, that it would take more manpower or atleast be more complex to sail. am I correct in any of these assumptions? or what are the pro/cons to ketch rig vs your gaff cutter rig? I personally like the Ketch as it is more in keeping the the original design, but ease of sailing is also important to me.

                                      that is cool that you guys have found older boats to work on and repair. The problem with that is that I am sold on Colin Archer design, for its history, shape, and reputation as a solid safe ship in whatever is handed to it. I can't imagine that it would be easy finding an affordable ship of such specs to work on.

                                      here is a link to some similar boats, some of them have the wheelhouse that I was speaking of earlier. John had some good points for not having one. Either way as you can see, none of these boats are exceptionally cheep. (I believe they are listed in Norwegian Kroner)
                                      http://www.finn.no/finn/boat/used/result

                                      now while I do not come from a sailing background, I am deeply interested in having the ability to travel with minimal dependence on fuel. and I am definitely interested in building my own from scratch, as I take pride in what I do, and that would be a hell of an accomplishment.

                                      Thanks again for the info. where did you post the plans for the Lynaes dinghy again?

                                      Andre



                                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Blanchard <kd0dvh@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > The Lynaes dinghy is like a little bitty Eric, and probably why I've
                                      > accepted if I never launch my Eric, I'll have a great dink to grow old with
                                      > and pass on to my children. It would be fun to take on weekenders down the
                                      > Mississippi. It would provision and portage nicely. My children might just
                                      > finish the Eric if I can't. The Lynaes dinghy makes for a fine contingency
                                      > plan in more ways than one...
                                      >
                                      > I don't believe the market hype for inflatables or lifeboats. Inflatables
                                      > are unreliable and overpriced. Read about the Hobart race as one example of
                                      > many. It would be foolish to buy one if you plan to voyage across the planet
                                      > in your Eric. An inflatable will be either stolen or knifed and besides you
                                      > will stick out like a sore thumb in a developing country. You can't row an
                                      > inflatable, let alone sail one. History has many lessons for us, and the
                                      > Lynaes dinghy is history incarnate, born from the deaths of hundreds at sea.
                                      > There was compelling interest to seek the design of the Lynaes dinghy
                                      > because everyone was sick of drowning. It will be my lifeboat and no other
                                      > onboard the Eric. The Lynaes will teach you to sail, to row, to anchor, to
                                      > scull, to capsize, to heave-to. This is in part why I call it the itty bitty
                                      > Eric. What you learn on it will prepare you for the 10 ton Eric.
                                      >
                                      > Here is how to make a triple sawn timber...fine for the Lynaes Dinghy keel.
                                      >
                                      > *********************
                                      > Patrick.blanchard <http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/member.php?u=21227> [image:

                                      > patrick.blanchard is offline]
                                      > Member
                                      >
                                      > Join Date: Jul 2008
                                      > Posts: 97
                                      > [image: Default] *Re: Resorcinol glue*
                                      > ------------------------------
                                      > Quote:
                                      > Originally Posted by *Breakaway* [image: View
                                      > Post]<http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2514667#post2514667>

                                      > Does the paper in any way weaken the joint? Or since its cellulose mosty,
                                      > does it become amalgamated (?) with the glue/wood?
                                      > The construction paper strips soak in the resorcinol and are saturated. If
                                      > there is weakening it won't be as much as glue starvation with a tight
                                      > laminate bend, the alternative.
                                      >
                                      > This construction paper strip technique was used two years ago on kiln dried
                                      > white oak 3/4" strips and overclamped. The glued board was tossed outside
                                      > and has weathered rain, sun, hot dry wind, bare soil (all kinds of critters)
                                      > for two seasons. The glue line is stronger than the white oak and there was
                                      > no rot in the oak. It took a sledge hammer to break it. I don't believe all
                                      > the talk about white oak not taking glue. Epoxy maybe, but not resorcinol.
                                      > You don't need to fiddle with the pH of the white oak either.
                                      >
                                      > It is difficult to find large timbers for classic boat construction. I
                                      > invented a "triple sawn timber", using kiln dried white oak, sipo tenons and
                                      > resorcinol. Take 3 4/4 x 12" kiln dried white oak (or any hardwood or
                                      > combination of woods for that matter) and plane to 7/8". Lay your board for
                                      > grain and knots for your final timber, taking advantage of the grain. When
                                      > finished, label the center board sides A and B, respectively. Cut the center
                                      > board mortise (I use the Festool tenon tool and sipo tenons) through. Place
                                      > the center template and mark the side boards internally and cut the mortise
                                      > to just under 7/16" depth. Use resorcinol and construction paper strips for
                                      > gluing. My clamps are 50 lb lead pigs on the top board. Final thickness is
                                      > just over 2.5". Continue laminating up for as much height as needed, using a
                                      > new through-cut mortise template and a final cap board. You never see the
                                      > tenons if you lay them properly according to your loft.
                                      >
                                      > You have a very very strong triple sawn timber for double sawn frames,
                                      > keels, knees...anything you need for classic wooden boat construction. You
                                      > also use almost all the wood so it is eco friendly(er) than most other
                                      > techniques. Also, the tight bends with thin strip lamination have always
                                      > worried me (hence the construction paper strip technique) for frames and
                                      > backbone. I cannot think of a stronger timber than one constructed in the
                                      > triple sawn timber described above.
                                      >
                                      > This triple sawn timber technique can be scaled for whatever timber you
                                      > need, big boat or little boat. For example, my Lynaes dinghy keel will have
                                      > a central white oak layer with 2 outer layer hackberry boards for the 11
                                      > foot keel.
                                      >
                                      > You must glue in the summer if outside like I am (under a greenhouse). It's
                                      > the only way to get bigger timbers. Electric blankets do not soak enough
                                      > heat into the larger timbers. I've used Aerodux and think it is overrated.
                                      > You just have to wait for the right season.
                                      >
                                      > Just a note on the bigger timbers and keels... It is probably better to make
                                      > a triple sawn timbers according to the plans and then bolt them accordingly.
                                      > Anything wider than 12" will require width lamination. For a 14" wide timber
                                      > I would alternate a 9" wide and 5" wide timber, flipping the join line for a
                                      > 4 " overlap. This way I can use the inexpensive and plentiful Kansas white
                                      > oak from the sawmill down the road. It is not easy to find 14" wide boards
                                      > and those usually have soft wood on the edges. For long lengths, stagger the
                                      > joins within the 3 layers as recommended in the expert text books on
                                      > lamination. Bed and bolt the timbers for the keel. I think it would be
                                      > foolish to laminate an entire keel of a moderate cruiser for example.
                                      > __________________
                                      >
                                      > <http://picasaweb.google.com/kd0dvh>
                                      > ------------------------------
                                      > * Last edited by patrick.blanchard; 03-08-2010 at 05:25 PM. Reason: combined
                                      > 2 posts *
                                      > ***********************

                                      >
                                      > On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:00 PM, aschm078 <aschm078@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Thank you guys for all your input. Patrick for your positive attitude! and
                                      > > John for being realistic, you guys sort of balance each other out. I am a
                                      > > wildland firefighter, it is my job to look at what others may think
                                      > > impossible, and to get it done. Without an attitude like Patrick, Much would
                                      > > not be accomplished. but also preparation that John is suggesting, makes
                                      > > accomplishing the impossible well within the realm of reality.
                                      > >
                                      > > In terms of what to use as a Tender. I would like to build something that
                                      > > is practical. In the event that Eric never gets built, I would like to have
                                      > > not built something that will never get used. and a concern of mine with the
                                      > > Katydidnt is that it says that it is unstable and shouldn't be used as a
                                      > > lifeboat. If I am to tote it onboard a boat where space is limited, I want
                                      > > something that can ferry passengers back and forth, be stable and usable as
                                      > > a lifeboat for all passengers (4), and even throw up a sail would be nice.
                                      > >
                                      > > Patrick, would you have an idea as to the max length dingy stow-able
                                      > > onboard the Eric?
                                      > >
                                      > > As I mentioned, I am still in the planning/research phase of my future
                                      > > project, all starting ten years ago on a trip to Norway. I am not a sailor,
                                      > > nor have I spent much time on the water in anything other than a canoe. as
                                      > > such I have two questions for now 1) could you guys give me any insight into
                                      > > sail design. Pat, you mentioned rigging your Eric with a gaff cutter rig.
                                      > > what are the pros/cons of that over the more classic look of the ketch rig
                                      > > as seen the original Colin Archers and fishing vessels all over Norway? 2)
                                      > > Pat, you mentioned altering some of the Cabin and deck. In Norway I spent a
                                      > > week, in rough weather, on a boat similar to the Eric (designed after the
                                      > > Colin Archer Redningsskøyte) that had an enclosure around the cockpit, a
                                      > > wheel house sot of speak. I don't know the dimensions of the boat. My
                                      > > question is if this sort of modification would be acceptable on a boat the
                                      > > size of Eric, and how that would effect sail plans/stowage of a dingy? and
                                      > > what are your thoughts on such a cabin? it would make travels more pleasant
                                      > > in rough weather commonly encountered in the north seas, but why would one
                                      > > want to be out in rough weather.
                                      > >
                                      > > As I mentioned, it is going to be a few years before I commit the the
                                      > > project. mostly because of the transient nature of my job, I have no space,
                                      > > or at least enough time at any given place to undertake such a project. But
                                      > > I hope to remedy that in the near future. In the meantime it gives me time
                                      > > to do my research and ensure I am headed in the right direction. Thanks
                                      > > again for all your input.
                                      > >
                                      > > Andre
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com <AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com>, John

                                      > > Almberg <jalmberg@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Tha big lapstrake double0-ender is pretty cool! I'm finally getting the
                                      > > > hang of lapstrake planking. Just did my first scarf today.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Nothing more fun than boat building, but I must agree... a lot of
                                      > > > work/dough to build an Eric. My dreams only extend to the 28' Fore an'
                                      > > > Aft :-)
                                      > > >
                                      > > > -- John
                                      > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Patrick Blanchard wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Everyone needs a lot of help to build an Eric. You can't build it
                                      > > > > solo. There are seve?ral ways to get help. Have a bare hull built for
                                      > > > > you and take it from there or do like I did and restore one. I did not
                                      > > > > build my Eric, it was built over 10 years by at least 6 people. It
                                      > > > > will take me at least 3 years to restore it, with help.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > The boat must match the dream that must match the budget. You can
                                      > > > > quote me on that. Let me explain...
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Eric's lines and history are endearing, and it is there that I find
                                      > > > > the strength to work hard when I want to quit. There are some designs
                                      > > > > that do not inspire me to work hard, like Brewer's Tern 32 that
                                      > > > > stalled because it did not match my dream. I can't afford a newly
                                      > > > > finished Eric but I can afford to pay as I go for restoration because
                                      > > > > I have a job doing something else.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > You have to start or you will never finish. If you never finish, you
                                      > > > > will not have failed because you learned new skills and understand why
                                      > > > > you want a boat like the Eric.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I cannot think of a more beautiful tender for Eric than the Lynaes
                                      > > > > Dinghy. Both boats come from the same place. The Lynaes was once the
                                      > > > > tender for the rescue boats. She should do everything and more, such
                                      > > > > as kedging or setting anchors in a squall. You can download my loft
                                      > > > > for free. If you want a smaller version, then scale it down before
                                      > > > > printing. Chuck Cole built a 10' version. Good boats scale easily. I
                                      > > > > think he lofted the stations to 12" instead of what is shown in
                                      > > > > Neilson's book, the same book from which I lifted the lines and posted
                                      > > > > the loft for you. I've posted a link for a 15' version too...
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > *http://tinyurl.com/ydoar62 <http://tinyurl.com/ydoar62>
                                      > > > > **http://tinyurl.com/ye5j336 <http://tinyurl.com/ye5j336>*
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >



                                    • titanicslim
                                      OK- I guess it s my turn now. Since an Eric is too big a boat for a novice s first attempt, we re advising you to build a double-ender dinghy for practice,
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Mar 19 11:28 AM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        OK- I guess it's my turn now.

                                        Since an Eric is too big a boat for a novice's first attempt, we're advising you to build a double-ender dinghy for practice, right? I'm not familiar with the Lynaes model but I don't think it will teach many applicable tasks. Wherever you decide to hang it, I recommend you build a regular carvel sailing peapod: about a 15-footer. The John Gardener book that will take you through the process step-by-step is called Building Classic Small Craft and is available here for USD7.00 http://www.amazon.com/Building-Classic-Small-Craft-1/dp/0877422990/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269022303&sr=8-8.

                                        Now, this is too much to stow on board an Eric Ketch, but you haven't got an Eric now, have you? A pod of this sort will be a huge project, but one that will not be nearly as likely to rot on the building molds before she's done. And when you're done, you will have a really cool boat that will do nearly everything an Eric will do except ruin you financially.

                                        What she will do, however, is teach you a whole lot about lofting, set-up, bending frames, planking a set-works double-ender (and that suggests a book) caulking and everything the Eric will require of you except engine installation. And you will learn all these essential skills on a manageable scale. By the way, I usually tow a tender when I need one.

                                        Also, whilst we're telling you how to spend your children's inheritance, this is the boat you really want to build: http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/EricJr.html

                                        Lots of luck,
                                        Dave
                                      • John Almberg
                                        Good advice, Dave. I particularly concur with the practicality of an Eric Jr.. Sailor s imaginations tend to drift towards bigger and bigger boats, but really,
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Mar 19 5:50 PM
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                                          Good advice, Dave. I particularly concur with the practicality of an Eric Jr..

                                          Sailor's imaginations tend to drift towards bigger and bigger boats, but really, a much smaller sea worthy boat will do, and is MUCH more affordable. The obvious reference is the Pardeys, who manged to circle the world several times in under 30' boats.

                                          But the first thing is to build *something* and that first something should NOT be a big boat, in my opinion.

                                          Another suggestion for a first boat would be William Atkin's "Snow Baby". I guess if my final goal was to build a Wiliam Atkin boat, I'd want to build an Atkin small boat, first. In doing so, you are bound to pick up some knowledge of how the designer thinks and draws which will come in handy when you are staring at the plans for your big boat.

                                          But, I guess strictly speaking, you're going to learn a lot building any small boat, as long as it is built using similar methods.

                                          -- John

                                          titanicslim wrote:
                                           

                                          OK- I guess it's my turn now.

                                          Since an Eric is too big a boat for a novice's first attempt, we're advising you to build a double-ender dinghy for practice, right? I'm not familiar with the Lynaes model but I don't think it will teach many applicable tasks. Wherever you decide to hang it, I recommend you build a regular carvel sailing peapod: about a 15-footer. The John Gardener book that will take you through the process step-by-step is called Building Classic Small Craft and is available here for USD7.00 http://www.amazon. com/Building- Classic-Small- Craft-1/dp/ 0877422990/ ref=sr_1_ 8?ie=UTF8& s=books&qid= 1269022303& sr=8-8.

                                          Now, this is too much to stow on board an Eric Ketch, but you haven't got an Eric now, have you? A pod of this sort will be a huge project, but one that will not be nearly as likely to rot on the building molds before she's done. And when you're done, you will have a really cool boat that will do nearly everything an Eric will do except ruin you financially.

                                          What she will do, however, is teach you a whole lot about lofting, set-up, bending frames, planking a set-works double-ender (and that suggests a book) caulking and everything the Eric will require of you except engine installation. And you will learn all these essential skills on a manageable scale. By the way, I usually tow a tender when I need one.

                                          Also, whilst we're telling you how to spend your children's inheritance, this is the boat you really want to build: http://www.boat- links.com/ Atkinco/Sail/ EricJr.html

                                          Lots of luck,
                                          Dave


                                        • titanicslim
                                          ... to ... You make a good point, John. Is Snow Baby drawn as a clinker boat or carvel? My personal favorite is the Sanderling and, given the least
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Mar 19 7:11 PM
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                                            > Another suggestion for a first boat would be William Atkin's "Snow
                                            > Baby". I guess if my final goal was to build a Wiliam Atkin boat, I'd
                                            > want to build an Atkin small boat, first. In doing so, you are bound to
                                            > pick up some knowledge of how the designer thinks and draws which will
                                            > come in handy when you are staring at the plans for your big boat.

                                            You make a good point, John.    Is Snow Baby drawn as a clinker boat or carvel?   My personal favorite is the Sanderling and,  given the least excuse, I would haul off and build one of those.
                                          • Brandon F
                                            If you like Atkin double enders, you can t beat Valgerda. Of course I m a little biased. It s a big project for a fist time builder, but you can do it in a
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Mar 20 9:00 PM
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                                              If you like Atkin double enders, you can't beat Valgerda. Of course I'm a little biased. It's a big project for a fist time builder, but you can do it in a regular-sized garage and when you get done you have a very capable boat.

                                              You could also look around for a used Atkin Ingrid. Bluewater Boats cranked out 50 or so back in the early '80s. They are beautiful boats and in fiberglass, which is a heck of a lot easier to maintain when you get into that size of boat. I know what all you wooden boat types are thinking right now. Save it. I've had them both. Anything over 20 feet needs to be made out of fiberglass.

                                              Note to Alan: Great job on Rhapsody in Glue! That's a big project.

                                              Brandon
                                              http//:valgerda.blogspot.com
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