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Thistle and raised deck

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  • air_2_fly
    I can understand that problems could result in changing a design. Is there a way to raise the deck height of Thistle to give six feet (and maybe one or two
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 2, 2009
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      I can understand that problems could result in changing a design. Is there a way to raise the deck height of Thistle to give six feet (and maybe one or two inches more) interior height and keeping it a flush deck without going to a bigger boat?
    • Patrick Blanchard
      The Thistle is probably as high a freeboard as could be safely designed so as to maintain seaworthiness, IMO but you already know that. Center of buoyancy will
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 3, 2009
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        The Thistle is probably as high a freeboard as could be safely
        designed so as to maintain seaworthiness, IMO but you already know
        that. Center of buoyancy will be higher of course, and quite tender to
        a gust. This would mean a wet boat and one prone to broaching.
        Thistle's deck is already 2" higher than Eric (my boat) and is the
        only practical difference in lines. Perhaps opting for larger and more
        openness with hatches for those times you need a good stretch, keeping
        the lines unchanged. Adding a hatch perhaps?

        Although not an extension of standing height, you might consider doing
        w/o the footwell, keeping aft deck flush for more interior storage.
        Personally I would not consider this modification detrimental to
        performance; less chance for a pooped deck and proven safe
        modification on the Pardey's Hess cutter Taliesin.

        regards,
        Patrick


        On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 1:58 PM, air_2_fly<air_2_fly@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > I can understand that problems could result in changing a design. Is there a
        > way to raise the deck height of Thistle to give six feet (and maybe one or
        > two inches more) interior height and keeping it a flush deck without going
        > to a bigger boat?
        >
        >
      • air_2_fly
        Thanks for your post. I like the idea of a flush aft deck! Thanks again.
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 4, 2009
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          Thanks for your post. I like the idea of a flush aft deck! Thanks again.



          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Blanchard <kd0dvh@...> wrote:
          >
          > The Thistle is probably as high a freeboard as could be safely
          > designed so as to maintain seaworthiness, IMO but you already know
          > that. Center of buoyancy will be higher of course, and quite tender to
          > a gust. This would mean a wet boat and one prone to broaching.
          > Thistle's deck is already 2" higher than Eric (my boat) and is the
          > only practical difference in lines. Perhaps opting for larger and more
          > openness with hatches for those times you need a good stretch, keeping
          > the lines unchanged. Adding a hatch perhaps?
          >
          > Although not an extension of standing height, you might consider doing
          > w/o the footwell, keeping aft deck flush for more interior storage.
          > Personally I would not consider this modification detrimental to
          > performance; less chance for a pooped deck and proven safe
          > modification on the Pardey's Hess cutter Taliesin.
          >
          > regards,
          > Patrick
          >
          >
          > On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 1:58 PM, air_2_fly<air_2_fly@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > I can understand that problems could result in changing a design. Is there a
          > > way to raise the deck height of Thistle to give six feet (and maybe one or
          > > two inches more) interior height and keeping it a flush deck without going
          > > to a bigger boat?
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Patrick Blanchard
          you are welcome. Just a few weeks ago Lynn Pardey answered my email about the flush deck aft. After 3 decades of incredible sailing with the flush deck aft,
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 5, 2009
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            you are welcome. Just a few weeks ago Lynn Pardey answered my email
            about the flush deck aft.

            "After 3 decades of incredible sailing with the flush deck aft, would
            you have it in your next boat?"

            "...yes...At first I was skeptical..." "...Larry framed in the
            footwell just in case it didn't work, and could later remove the
            lazarette if needed and place a footwell as Hess designed. It has
            worked well and I still love it..."

            If possible, sit in either an Eric or Thistle's forc'sl - it is what
            you will have aft without the footwell.

            regards,
            patrick

            On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 10:55 PM, air_2_fly<air_2_fly@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Thanks for your post. I like the idea of a flush aft deck! Thanks again.
            >
            > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Blanchard <kd0dvh@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> The Thistle is probably as high a freeboard as could be safely
            >> designed so as to maintain seaworthiness, IMO but you already know
            >> that. Center of buoyancy will be higher of course, and quite tender to
            >> a gust. This would mean a wet boat and one prone to broaching.
            >> Thistle's deck is already 2" higher than Eric (my boat) and is the
            >> only practical difference in lines. Perhaps opting for larger and more
            >> openness with hatches for those times you need a good stretch, keeping
            >> the lines unchanged. Adding a hatch perhaps?
            >>
            >> Although not an extension of standing height, you might consider doing
            >> w/o the footwell, keeping aft deck flush for more interior storage.
            >> Personally I would not consider this modification detrimental to
            >> performance; less chance for a pooped deck and proven safe
            >> modification on the Pardey's Hess cutter Taliesin.
            >>
            >> regards,
            >> Patrick
            >>
            >>
            >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 1:58 PM, air_2_fly<air_2_fly@...> wrote:
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > I can understand that problems could result in changing a design. Is
            >> > there a
            >> > way to raise the deck height of Thistle to give six feet (and maybe one
            >> > or
            >> > two inches more) interior height and keeping it a flush deck without
            >> > going
            >> > to a bigger boat?
            >> >
            >> >
            >>
            >
            >
          • air_2_fly
            Hi Patrick, Fram is larger and may have enough room inside. I stand six feet and would like to build something that could become a live aboard in the future.
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 6, 2009
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              Hi Patrick,

              Fram is larger and may have enough room inside. I stand six feet and would like to build something that could become a live aboard in the future. I've had smaller living space in the past, but would like to get headroom. Flush deck, too, is the way to go for me I think. I've seen Colin Archer types with flush decks on the internet that look roomy inside. These designs are very nice.

              Another website had a thread going that double ended boats with sharper ends ride like a hobby horse in certain conditions. Maybe that was someone with experience with a much different design. Would this be true of the Atkin's double ended designs? I've read that these boats (Colin Archer type) are the ultimate if you want to go to sea and manage well. I have heard good things about them. I'm not that into speed, it's just how I get there that matters. I didn't want to get too big of a design. My goal is to get something for one person to build, sail, and maintain (hopefully not too expensive after it is built).

              Allen



              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Blanchard <kd0dvh@...> wrote:
              >
              > you are welcome. Just a few weeks ago Lynn Pardey answered my email
              > about the flush deck aft.
              >
              > "After 3 decades of incredible sailing with the flush deck aft, would
              > you have it in your next boat?"
              >
              > "...yes...At first I was skeptical..." "...Larry framed in the
              > footwell just in case it didn't work, and could later remove the
              > lazarette if needed and place a footwell as Hess designed. It has
              > worked well and I still love it..."
              >
              > If possible, sit in either an Eric or Thistle's forc'sl - it is what
              > you will have aft without the footwell.
              >
              > regards,
              > patrick
              >
              > On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 10:55 PM, air_2_fly<air_2_fly@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Thanks for your post. I like the idea of a flush aft deck! Thanks again.
              > >
              > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Blanchard <kd0dvh@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> The Thistle is probably as high a freeboard as could be safely
              > >> designed so as to maintain seaworthiness, IMO but you already know
              > >> that. Center of buoyancy will be higher of course, and quite tender to
              > >> a gust. This would mean a wet boat and one prone to broaching.
              > >> Thistle's deck is already 2" higher than Eric (my boat) and is the
              > >> only practical difference in lines. Perhaps opting for larger and more
              > >> openness with hatches for those times you need a good stretch, keeping
              > >> the lines unchanged. Adding a hatch perhaps?
              > >>
              > >> Although not an extension of standing height, you might consider doing
              > >> w/o the footwell, keeping aft deck flush for more interior storage.
              > >> Personally I would not consider this modification detrimental to
              > >> performance; less chance for a pooped deck and proven safe
              > >> modification on the Pardey's Hess cutter Taliesin.
              > >>
              > >> regards,
              > >> Patrick
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 1:58 PM, air_2_fly<air_2_fly@> wrote:
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > I can understand that problems could result in changing a design. Is
              > >> > there a
              > >> > way to raise the deck height of Thistle to give six feet (and maybe one
              > >> > or
              > >> > two inches more) interior height and keeping it a flush deck without
              > >> > going
              > >> > to a bigger boat?
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Patrick Blanchard
              Allen, The book about Colin Archer and the double ender is expensive but worth the read. It will probably validate what you are thinking you want from your
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 6, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Allen,

                The book about Colin Archer and the double ender is expensive but worth the
                read. It will probably validate what you are thinking you want from your
                boat. Any other reference to the double ender fails, IMO. The drawings might
                even help you rearrange the interior to you liking. Personally I like
                Netter's layout the best.

                Demas, and Knox-Johnson - Demas is by far my favorite and sailed an
                Argentinian design along Archer (and after Eric's lines were published).

                All double enders are not the same. Anyone can point the stern; it takes a
                certain gift and experience to do it right for a 32' boat, as did Wm.
                Atkins. You won't find reference to nauseating hobby horsing with either the
                Eric or Thistle or Dragon.

                It took me 6 months of lofting the Lynaes dinghy from scaled lines before I
                realized what the tremendous loss of life at sea, the Northern sea
                shipbuilders, Archer, and Wm Atkins have given us. The importance is easily
                forgotton in this 'modern' day. But bear in mind my problematic bias - the
                other day after sighting Arcturus, Vega, Formalhaut, and the moon @ 28
                degrees north I told my children "who needs GPS when we have sextants." We
                laughed. But it was said not all in jest.

                My 1968 Eric is under restoration, and in 5 years or so will be ready for
                another 40 years of sea. I am the second owner. While sitting comfortably in
                the cabin, once I became aware that Atkins shrank Archer's design probably
                as small as realistically possible so as to not make it too cramped for long
                term cruising while maintaining all that Archer conveyed to the field of
                naval architechture.

                Probably the only practical difference between us is you stand 1/2 foot
                taller than I. Philosophically, our view towards the sea and how to live on
                it is lock-step. Even your first name is my middle! If that is indeed
                correct, you need not look any farther than Eric/Thistle/Dragon. Same boats
                with minor changes and all safe changes. I was lucky to find an Eric but
                would be very content with any of the three. In fact I will be rigging my
                Eric with the Dragon's gaff (thank you Pat Atkins for helping sort this out
                for me).

                You have Fram, a Thistle? You are building from plans?

                If indeed building, I am planning a full loft of the Eric because I just
                like to do that sort of thing. Also if my Eric is destroyed, I will be ready
                for another build. You may have a copy of the loft (anyone for that matter)
                as long as Mrs. Atkins gives the OK. The original will be on mylar rolls,
                scanned and printable on paper, just as I did w/ the Lynaes dinghy. It would
                not be ready until this time next year.

                Regards and best of luck with your endeavours,
                Patrick


                On 8/6/09, air_2_fly <air_2_fly@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi Patrick,
                >
                > Fram is larger and may have enough room inside. I stand six feet and would
                > like to build something that could become a live aboard in the future. I've
                > had smaller living space in the past, but would like to get headroom. Flush
                > deck, too, is the way to go for me I think. I've seen Colin Archer types
                > with flush decks on the internet that look roomy inside. These designs are
                > very nice.
                >
                > Another website had a thread going that double ended boats with sharper
                > ends ride like a hobby horse in certain conditions. Maybe that was someone
                > with experience with a much different design. Would this be true of the
                > Atkin's double ended designs? I've read that these boats (Colin Archer type)
                > are the ultimate if you want to go to sea and manage well. I have heard good
                > things about them. I'm not that into speed, it's just how I get there that
                > matters. I didn't want to get too big of a design. My goal is to get
                > something for one person to build, sail, and maintain (hopefully not too
                > expensive after it is built).
                >
                > Allen
                >
                > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com <AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com>, Patrick
                > Blanchard <kd0dvh@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > you are welcome. Just a few weeks ago Lynn Pardey answered my email
                > > about the flush deck aft.
                > >
                > > "After 3 decades of incredible sailing with the flush deck aft, would
                > > you have it in your next boat?"
                > >
                > > "...yes...At first I was skeptical..." "...Larry framed in the
                > > footwell just in case it didn't work, and could later remove the
                > > lazarette if needed and place a footwell as Hess designed. It has
                > > worked well and I still love it..."
                > >
                > > If possible, sit in either an Eric or Thistle's forc'sl - it is what
                > > you will have aft without the footwell.
                > >
                > > regards,
                > > patrick
                > >
                > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 10:55 PM, air_2_fly<air_2_fly@...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Thanks for your post. I like the idea of a flush aft deck! Thanks
                > again.
                > > >
                > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com <AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > Patrick Blanchard <kd0dvh@> wrote:
                > > >>
                > > >> The Thistle is probably as high a freeboard as could be safely
                > > >> designed so as to maintain seaworthiness, IMO but you already know
                > > >> that. Center of buoyancy will be higher of course, and quite tender to
                > > >> a gust. This would mean a wet boat and one prone to broaching.
                > > >> Thistle's deck is already 2" higher than Eric (my boat) and is the
                > > >> only practical difference in lines. Perhaps opting for larger and more
                > > >> openness with hatches for those times you need a good stretch, keeping
                > > >> the lines unchanged. Adding a hatch perhaps?
                > > >>
                > > >> Although not an extension of standing height, you might consider doing
                > > >> w/o the footwell, keeping aft deck flush for more interior storage.
                > > >> Personally I would not consider this modification detrimental to
                > > >> performance; less chance for a pooped deck and proven safe
                > > >> modification on the Pardey's Hess cutter Taliesin.
                > > >>
                > > >> regards,
                > > >> Patrick
                > > >>
                > > >>
                > > >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 1:58 PM, air_2_fly<air_2_fly@> wrote:
                > > >> >
                > > >> >
                > > >> > I can understand that problems could result in changing a design. Is
                > > >> > there a
                > > >> > way to raise the deck height of Thistle to give six feet (and maybe
                > one
                > > >> > or
                > > >> > two inches more) interior height and keeping it a flush deck without
                > > >> > going
                > > >> > to a bigger boat?
                > > >> >
                > > >> >
                > > >>
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • air_2_fly
                Patrick. I ll look for the Colin Archer book. I don t have plans for anything yet. I m still asking questions and looking around. I am going to build from
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 6, 2009
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                  Patrick.

                  I'll look for the Colin Archer book. I don't have plans for anything yet. I'm still asking questions and looking around. I am going to build from plans. I never used GPS, Loran, etc. in my navigation. I have had someone using a GPS next to me checking my course for themselves, but the difference was neglible. At least there is something I can do right. The GPS worked half of the time. My chart or compass has never broke.

                  Thank you again for the information!

                  Allen

                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Blanchard <kd0dvh@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Allen,
                  >
                  > The book about Colin Archer and the double ender is expensive but worth the
                  > read. It will probably validate what you are thinking you want from your
                  > boat. Any other reference to the double ender fails, IMO. The drawings might
                  > even help you rearrange the interior to you liking. Personally I like
                  > Netter's layout the best.
                  >
                  > Demas, and Knox-Johnson - Demas is by far my favorite and sailed an
                  > Argentinian design along Archer (and after Eric's lines were published).
                  >
                  > All double enders are not the same. Anyone can point the stern; it takes a
                  > certain gift and experience to do it right for a 32' boat, as did Wm.
                  > Atkins. You won't find reference to nauseating hobby horsing with either the
                  > Eric or Thistle or Dragon.
                  >
                  > It took me 6 months of lofting the Lynaes dinghy from scaled lines before I
                  > realized what the tremendous loss of life at sea, the Northern sea
                  > shipbuilders, Archer, and Wm Atkins have given us. The importance is easily
                  > forgotton in this 'modern' day. But bear in mind my problematic bias - the
                  > other day after sighting Arcturus, Vega, Formalhaut, and the moon @ 28
                  > degrees north I told my children "who needs GPS when we have sextants." We
                  > laughed. But it was said not all in jest.
                  >
                  > My 1968 Eric is under restoration, and in 5 years or so will be ready for
                  > another 40 years of sea. I am the second owner. While sitting comfortably in
                  > the cabin, once I became aware that Atkins shrank Archer's design probably
                  > as small as realistically possible so as to not make it too cramped for long
                  > term cruising while maintaining all that Archer conveyed to the field of
                  > naval architechture.
                  >
                  > Probably the only practical difference between us is you stand 1/2 foot
                  > taller than I. Philosophically, our view towards the sea and how to live on
                  > it is lock-step. Even your first name is my middle! If that is indeed
                  > correct, you need not look any farther than Eric/Thistle/Dragon. Same boats
                  > with minor changes and all safe changes. I was lucky to find an Eric but
                  > would be very content with any of the three. In fact I will be rigging my
                  > Eric with the Dragon's gaff (thank you Pat Atkins for helping sort this out
                  > for me).
                  >
                  > You have Fram, a Thistle? You are building from plans?
                  >
                  > If indeed building, I am planning a full loft of the Eric because I just
                  > like to do that sort of thing. Also if my Eric is destroyed, I will be ready
                  > for another build. You may have a copy of the loft (anyone for that matter)
                  > as long as Mrs. Atkins gives the OK. The original will be on mylar rolls,
                  > scanned and printable on paper, just as I did w/ the Lynaes dinghy. It would
                  > not be ready until this time next year.
                  >
                  > Regards and best of luck with your endeavours,
                  > Patrick
                  >
                  >
                  > On 8/6/09, air_2_fly <air_2_fly@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hi Patrick,
                  > >
                  > > Fram is larger and may have enough room inside. I stand six feet and would
                  > > like to build something that could become a live aboard in the future. I've
                  > > had smaller living space in the past, but would like to get headroom. Flush
                  > > deck, too, is the way to go for me I think. I've seen Colin Archer types
                  > > with flush decks on the internet that look roomy inside. These designs are
                  > > very nice.
                  > >
                  > > Another website had a thread going that double ended boats with sharper
                  > > ends ride like a hobby horse in certain conditions. Maybe that was someone
                  > > with experience with a much different design. Would this be true of the
                  > > Atkin's double ended designs? I've read that these boats (Colin Archer type)
                  > > are the ultimate if you want to go to sea and manage well. I have heard good
                  > > things about them. I'm not that into speed, it's just how I get there that
                  > > matters. I didn't want to get too big of a design. My goal is to get
                  > > something for one person to build, sail, and maintain (hopefully not too
                  > > expensive after it is built).
                  > >
                  > > Allen
                  > >
                  > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com <AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com>, Patrick
                  > > Blanchard <kd0dvh@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > you are welcome. Just a few weeks ago Lynn Pardey answered my email
                  > > > about the flush deck aft.
                  > > >
                  > > > "After 3 decades of incredible sailing with the flush deck aft, would
                  > > > you have it in your next boat?"
                  > > >
                  > > > "...yes...At first I was skeptical..." "...Larry framed in the
                  > > > footwell just in case it didn't work, and could later remove the
                  > > > lazarette if needed and place a footwell as Hess designed. It has
                  > > > worked well and I still love it..."
                  > > >
                  > > > If possible, sit in either an Eric or Thistle's forc'sl - it is what
                  > > > you will have aft without the footwell.
                  > > >
                  > > > regards,
                  > > > patrick
                  > > >
                  > > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 10:55 PM, air_2_fly<air_2_fly@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thanks for your post. I like the idea of a flush aft deck! Thanks
                  > > again.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com <AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > > Patrick Blanchard <kd0dvh@> wrote:
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >> The Thistle is probably as high a freeboard as could be safely
                  > > > >> designed so as to maintain seaworthiness, IMO but you already know
                  > > > >> that. Center of buoyancy will be higher of course, and quite tender to
                  > > > >> a gust. This would mean a wet boat and one prone to broaching.
                  > > > >> Thistle's deck is already 2" higher than Eric (my boat) and is the
                  > > > >> only practical difference in lines. Perhaps opting for larger and more
                  > > > >> openness with hatches for those times you need a good stretch, keeping
                  > > > >> the lines unchanged. Adding a hatch perhaps?
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >> Although not an extension of standing height, you might consider doing
                  > > > >> w/o the footwell, keeping aft deck flush for more interior storage.
                  > > > >> Personally I would not consider this modification detrimental to
                  > > > >> performance; less chance for a pooped deck and proven safe
                  > > > >> modification on the Pardey's Hess cutter Taliesin.
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >> regards,
                  > > > >> Patrick
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 1:58 PM, air_2_fly<air_2_fly@> wrote:
                  > > > >> >
                  > > > >> >
                  > > > >> > I can understand that problems could result in changing a design. Is
                  > > > >> > there a
                  > > > >> > way to raise the deck height of Thistle to give six feet (and maybe
                  > > one
                  > > > >> > or
                  > > > >> > two inches more) interior height and keeping it a flush deck without
                  > > > >> > going
                  > > > >> > to a bigger boat?
                  > > > >> >
                  > > > >> >
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Patrick Blanchard
                  Colin Archer and the Seaworthy Double ender by John Leathers. Only 1 copy on amazon and the price is painful. Let me know if you want to borrow mine. Also
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 6, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Colin Archer and the Seaworthy Double ender by John Leathers. Only 1 copy on
                    amazon and the price is painful. Let me know if you want to borrow mine.
                    Also Alone Through the Roaring Fourties by Vito Dumas (on his 32' ketch).
                    Don't forget Wm. Atkins book too. I have not read Robert Knox-Johnson except
                    for his perspectives on heaving to, but there is video footage of his Eric
                    showing great performance on his round the globe win. He did broach, BTW and
                    only while running bare poles. I don't think that would have been a problem
                    had he hove to, but he was of course, in a race to win.
                    On 8/6/09, air_2_fly <air_2_fly@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Patrick.
                    >
                    > I'll look for the Colin Archer book. I don't have plans for anything yet.
                    > I'm still asking questions and looking around. I am going to build from
                    > plans. I never used GPS, Loran, etc. in my navigation. I have had someone
                    > using a GPS next to me checking my course for themselves, but the difference
                    > was neglible. At least there is something I can do right. The GPS worked
                    > half of the time. My chart or compass has never broke.
                    >
                    > Thank you again for the information!
                    >
                    > Allen
                    >
                    > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com <AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com>, Patrick
                    > Blanchard <kd0dvh@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Allen,
                    > >
                    > > The book about Colin Archer and the double ender is expensive but worth
                    > the
                    > > read. It will probably validate what you are thinking you want from your
                    > > boat. Any other reference to the double ender fails, IMO. The drawings
                    > might
                    > > even help you rearrange the interior to you liking. Personally I like
                    > > Netter's layout the best.
                    > >
                    > > Demas, and Knox-Johnson - Demas is by far my favorite and sailed an
                    > > Argentinian design along Archer (and after Eric's lines were published).
                    > >
                    > > All double enders are not the same. Anyone can point the stern; it takes
                    > a
                    > > certain gift and experience to do it right for a 32' boat, as did Wm.
                    > > Atkins. You won't find reference to nauseating hobby horsing with either
                    > the
                    > > Eric or Thistle or Dragon.
                    > >
                    > > It took me 6 months of lofting the Lynaes dinghy from scaled lines before
                    > I
                    > > realized what the tremendous loss of life at sea, the Northern sea
                    > > shipbuilders, Archer, and Wm Atkins have given us. The importance is
                    > easily
                    > > forgotton in this 'modern' day. But bear in mind my problematic bias -
                    > the
                    > > other day after sighting Arcturus, Vega, Formalhaut, and the moon @ 28
                    > > degrees north I told my children "who needs GPS when we have sextants."
                    > We
                    > > laughed. But it was said not all in jest.
                    > >
                    > > My 1968 Eric is under restoration, and in 5 years or so will be ready for
                    > > another 40 years of sea. I am the second owner. While sitting comfortably
                    > in
                    > > the cabin, once I became aware that Atkins shrank Archer's design
                    > probably
                    > > as small as realistically possible so as to not make it too cramped for
                    > long
                    > > term cruising while maintaining all that Archer conveyed to the field of
                    > > naval architechture.
                    > >
                    > > Probably the only practical difference between us is you stand 1/2 foot
                    > > taller than I. Philosophically, our view towards the sea and how to live
                    > on
                    > > it is lock-step. Even your first name is my middle! If that is indeed
                    > > correct, you need not look any farther than Eric/Thistle/Dragon. Same
                    > boats
                    > > with minor changes and all safe changes. I was lucky to find an Eric but
                    > > would be very content with any of the three. In fact I will be rigging my
                    > > Eric with the Dragon's gaff (thank you Pat Atkins for helping sort this
                    > out
                    > > for me).
                    > >
                    > > You have Fram, a Thistle? You are building from plans?
                    > >
                    > > If indeed building, I am planning a full loft of the Eric because I just
                    > > like to do that sort of thing. Also if my Eric is destroyed, I will be
                    > ready
                    > > for another build. You may have a copy of the loft (anyone for that
                    > matter)
                    > > as long as Mrs. Atkins gives the OK. The original will be on mylar rolls,
                    > > scanned and printable on paper, just as I did w/ the Lynaes dinghy. It
                    > would
                    > > not be ready until this time next year.
                    > >
                    > > Regards and best of luck with your endeavours,
                    > > Patrick
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On 8/6/09, air_2_fly <air_2_fly@...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi Patrick,
                    > > >
                    > > > Fram is larger and may have enough room inside. I stand six feet and
                    > would
                    > > > like to build something that could become a live aboard in the future.
                    > I've
                    > > > had smaller living space in the past, but would like to get headroom.
                    > Flush
                    > > > deck, too, is the way to go for me I think. I've seen Colin Archer
                    > types
                    > > > with flush decks on the internet that look roomy inside. These designs
                    > are
                    > > > very nice.
                    > > >
                    > > > Another website had a thread going that double ended boats with sharper
                    > > > ends ride like a hobby horse in certain conditions. Maybe that was
                    > someone
                    > > > with experience with a much different design. Would this be true of the
                    > > > Atkin's double ended designs? I've read that these boats (Colin Archer
                    > type)
                    > > > are the ultimate if you want to go to sea and manage well. I have heard
                    > good
                    > > > things about them. I'm not that into speed, it's just how I get there
                    > that
                    > > > matters. I didn't want to get too big of a design. My goal is to get
                    > > > something for one person to build, sail, and maintain (hopefully not
                    > too
                    > > > expensive after it is built).
                    > > >
                    > > > Allen
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com <AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com><AtkinBoats%
                    > 40yahoogroups.com>, Patrick
                    > > > Blanchard <kd0dvh@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > you are welcome. Just a few weeks ago Lynn Pardey answered my email
                    > > > > about the flush deck aft.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "After 3 decades of incredible sailing with the flush deck aft, would
                    > > > > you have it in your next boat?"
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "...yes...At first I was skeptical..." "...Larry framed in the
                    > > > > footwell just in case it didn't work, and could later remove the
                    > > > > lazarette if needed and place a footwell as Hess designed. It has
                    > > > > worked well and I still love it..."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > If possible, sit in either an Eric or Thistle's forc'sl - it is what
                    > > > > you will have aft without the footwell.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > regards,
                    > > > > patrick
                    > > > >
                    > > > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 10:55 PM, air_2_fly<air_2_fly@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Thanks for your post. I like the idea of a flush aft deck! Thanks
                    > > > again.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com <AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com><AtkinBoats%
                    > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > > Patrick Blanchard <kd0dvh@> wrote:
                    > > > > >>
                    > > > > >> The Thistle is probably as high a freeboard as could be safely
                    > > > > >> designed so as to maintain seaworthiness, IMO but you already know
                    > > > > >> that. Center of buoyancy will be higher of course, and quite
                    > tender to
                    > > > > >> a gust. This would mean a wet boat and one prone to broaching.
                    > > > > >> Thistle's deck is already 2" higher than Eric (my boat) and is the
                    > > > > >> only practical difference in lines. Perhaps opting for larger and
                    > more
                    > > > > >> openness with hatches for those times you need a good stretch,
                    > keeping
                    > > > > >> the lines unchanged. Adding a hatch perhaps?
                    > > > > >>
                    > > > > >> Although not an extension of standing height, you might consider
                    > doing
                    > > > > >> w/o the footwell, keeping aft deck flush for more interior
                    > storage.
                    > > > > >> Personally I would not consider this modification detrimental to
                    > > > > >> performance; less chance for a pooped deck and proven safe
                    > > > > >> modification on the Pardey's Hess cutter Taliesin.
                    > > > > >>
                    > > > > >> regards,
                    > > > > >> Patrick
                    > > > > >>
                    > > > > >>
                    > > > > >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 1:58 PM, air_2_fly<air_2_fly@> wrote:
                    > > > > >> >
                    > > > > >> >
                    > > > > >> > I can understand that problems could result in changing a
                    > design. Is
                    > > > > >> > there a
                    > > > > >> > way to raise the deck height of Thistle to give six feet (and
                    > maybe
                    > > > one
                    > > > > >> > or
                    > > > > >> > two inches more) interior height and keeping it a flush deck
                    > without
                    > > > > >> > going
                    > > > > >> > to a bigger boat?
                    > > > > >> >
                    > > > > >> >
                    > > > > >>
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • air_2_fly
                    I found Colin Archer and the Seaworthy Double Ender for a much cheaper price than that one on Amazon. It s being shipped to me now. After I read the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 8, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I found "Colin Archer and the Seaworthy Double Ender" for a much cheaper price than that one on Amazon. It's being shipped to me now. After I read the description of the contents, I decided that this book needs to be on my bookshelf as reference material. Thanks for your invitation to read your book, though! From what I have seen so far, this boat is a ground breaking design.

                      I found a link to the naval museum that has the Vito Dumas boat:
                      http://www.welcomeargentina.com/paseos/el_mar_en_miniatura/index_i.html

                      There is also video on www.youtube.com about Dumas and Knox-Johnson.

                      This website was a good one, too:
                      http://home.online.no/~jeppejul/

                      He has a link for his english pages.

                      After seeing the pictures of this Colin Archer for sale:
                      http://www.rightboat.com/Colin-Archer-Double-Ender/boat-12027989/

                      I think I could have a skylight or two in the center of a flush deck of a smaller boat. This link will not last if the boat sells, so I made copies of the pictures. Very nice boat. I'm getting some good ideas.

                      These double ended boats are really something.


                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Blanchard <kd0dvh@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Colin Archer and the Seaworthy Double ender by John Leathers. Only 1 copy on
                      > amazon and the price is painful. Let me know if you want to borrow mine.
                      > Also Alone Through the Roaring Fourties by Vito Dumas (on his 32' ketch).
                      > Don't forget Wm. Atkins book too. I have not read Robert Knox-Johnson except
                      > for his perspectives on heaving to, but there is video footage of his Eric
                      > showing great performance on his round the globe win. He did broach, BTW and
                      > only while running bare poles. I don't think that would have been a problem
                      > had he hove to, but he was of course, in a race to win.
                      > On 8/6/09, air_2_fly <air_2_fly@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Patrick.
                      > >
                      > > I'll look for the Colin Archer book. I don't have plans for anything yet.
                      > > I'm still asking questions and looking around. I am going to build from
                      > > plans. I never used GPS, Loran, etc. in my navigation. I have had someone
                      > > using a GPS next to me checking my course for themselves, but the difference
                      > > was neglible. At least there is something I can do right. The GPS worked
                      > > half of the time. My chart or compass has never broke.
                      > >
                      > > Thank you again for the information!
                      > >
                      > > Allen
                      > >
                      > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com <AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com>, Patrick
                      > > Blanchard <kd0dvh@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Allen,
                      > > >
                      > > > The book about Colin Archer and the double ender is expensive but worth
                      > > the
                      > > > read. It will probably validate what you are thinking you want from your
                      > > > boat. Any other reference to the double ender fails, IMO. The drawings
                      > > might
                      > > > even help you rearrange the interior to you liking. Personally I like
                      > > > Netter's layout the best.
                      > > >
                      > > > Demas, and Knox-Johnson - Demas is by far my favorite and sailed an
                      > > > Argentinian design along Archer (and after Eric's lines were published).
                      > > >
                      > > > All double enders are not the same. Anyone can point the stern; it takes
                      > > a
                      > > > certain gift and experience to do it right for a 32' boat, as did Wm.
                      > > > Atkins. You won't find reference to nauseating hobby horsing with either
                      > > the
                      > > > Eric or Thistle or Dragon.
                      > > >
                      > > > It took me 6 months of lofting the Lynaes dinghy from scaled lines before
                      > > I
                      > > > realized what the tremendous loss of life at sea, the Northern sea
                      > > > shipbuilders, Archer, and Wm Atkins have given us. The importance is
                      > > easily
                      > > > forgotton in this 'modern' day. But bear in mind my problematic bias -
                      > > the
                      > > > other day after sighting Arcturus, Vega, Formalhaut, and the moon @ 28
                      > > > degrees north I told my children "who needs GPS when we have sextants."
                      > > We
                      > > > laughed. But it was said not all in jest.
                      > > >
                      > > > My 1968 Eric is under restoration, and in 5 years or so will be ready for
                      > > > another 40 years of sea. I am the second owner. While sitting comfortably
                      > > in
                      > > > the cabin, once I became aware that Atkins shrank Archer's design
                      > > probably
                      > > > as small as realistically possible so as to not make it too cramped for
                      > > long
                      > > > term cruising while maintaining all that Archer conveyed to the field of
                      > > > naval architechture.
                      > > >
                      > > > Probably the only practical difference between us is you stand 1/2 foot
                      > > > taller than I. Philosophically, our view towards the sea and how to live
                      > > on
                      > > > it is lock-step. Even your first name is my middle! If that is indeed
                      > > > correct, you need not look any farther than Eric/Thistle/Dragon. Same
                      > > boats
                      > > > with minor changes and all safe changes. I was lucky to find an Eric but
                      > > > would be very content with any of the three. In fact I will be rigging my
                      > > > Eric with the Dragon's gaff (thank you Pat Atkins for helping sort this
                      > > out
                      > > > for me).
                      > > >
                      > > > You have Fram, a Thistle? You are building from plans?
                      > > >
                      > > > If indeed building, I am planning a full loft of the Eric because I just
                      > > > like to do that sort of thing. Also if my Eric is destroyed, I will be
                      > > ready
                      > > > for another build. You may have a copy of the loft (anyone for that
                      > > matter)
                      > > > as long as Mrs. Atkins gives the OK. The original will be on mylar rolls,
                      > > > scanned and printable on paper, just as I did w/ the Lynaes dinghy. It
                      > > would
                      > > > not be ready until this time next year.
                      > > >
                      > > > Regards and best of luck with your endeavours,
                      > > > Patrick
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > On 8/6/09, air_2_fly <air_2_fly@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hi Patrick,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Fram is larger and may have enough room inside. I stand six feet and
                      > > would
                      > > > > like to build something that could become a live aboard in the future.
                      > > I've
                      > > > > had smaller living space in the past, but would like to get headroom.
                      > > Flush
                      > > > > deck, too, is the way to go for me I think. I've seen Colin Archer
                      > > types
                      > > > > with flush decks on the internet that look roomy inside. These designs
                      > > are
                      > > > > very nice.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Another website had a thread going that double ended boats with sharper
                      > > > > ends ride like a hobby horse in certain conditions. Maybe that was
                      > > someone
                      > > > > with experience with a much different design. Would this be true of the
                      > > > > Atkin's double ended designs? I've read that these boats (Colin Archer
                      > > type)
                      > > > > are the ultimate if you want to go to sea and manage well. I have heard
                      > > good
                      > > > > things about them. I'm not that into speed, it's just how I get there
                      > > that
                      > > > > matters. I didn't want to get too big of a design. My goal is to get
                      > > > > something for one person to build, sail, and maintain (hopefully not
                      > > too
                      > > > > expensive after it is built).
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Allen
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com <AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com><AtkinBoats%
                      > > 40yahoogroups.com>, Patrick
                      > > > > Blanchard <kd0dvh@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > you are welcome. Just a few weeks ago Lynn Pardey answered my email
                      > > > > > about the flush deck aft.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > "After 3 decades of incredible sailing with the flush deck aft, would
                      > > > > > you have it in your next boat?"
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > "...yes...At first I was skeptical..." "...Larry framed in the
                      > > > > > footwell just in case it didn't work, and could later remove the
                      > > > > > lazarette if needed and place a footwell as Hess designed. It has
                      > > > > > worked well and I still love it..."
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > If possible, sit in either an Eric or Thistle's forc'sl - it is what
                      > > > > > you will have aft without the footwell.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > regards,
                      > > > > > patrick
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 10:55 PM, air_2_fly<air_2_fly@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Thanks for your post. I like the idea of a flush aft deck! Thanks
                      > > > > again.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com <AtkinBoats%40yahoogroups.com><AtkinBoats%
                      > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > > > > Patrick Blanchard <kd0dvh@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > >> The Thistle is probably as high a freeboard as could be safely
                      > > > > > >> designed so as to maintain seaworthiness, IMO but you already know
                      > > > > > >> that. Center of buoyancy will be higher of course, and quite
                      > > tender to
                      > > > > > >> a gust. This would mean a wet boat and one prone to broaching.
                      > > > > > >> Thistle's deck is already 2" higher than Eric (my boat) and is the
                      > > > > > >> only practical difference in lines. Perhaps opting for larger and
                      > > more
                      > > > > > >> openness with hatches for those times you need a good stretch,
                      > > keeping
                      > > > > > >> the lines unchanged. Adding a hatch perhaps?
                      > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > >> Although not an extension of standing height, you might consider
                      > > doing
                      > > > > > >> w/o the footwell, keeping aft deck flush for more interior
                      > > storage.
                      > > > > > >> Personally I would not consider this modification detrimental to
                      > > > > > >> performance; less chance for a pooped deck and proven safe
                      > > > > > >> modification on the Pardey's Hess cutter Taliesin.
                      > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > >> regards,
                      > > > > > >> Patrick
                      > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 1:58 PM, air_2_fly<air_2_fly@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >> >
                      > > > > > >> >
                      > > > > > >> > I can understand that problems could result in changing a
                      > > design. Is
                      > > > > > >> > there a
                      > > > > > >> > way to raise the deck height of Thistle to give six feet (and
                      > > maybe
                      > > > > one
                      > > > > > >> > or
                      > > > > > >> > two inches more) interior height and keeping it a flush deck
                      > > without
                      > > > > > >> > going
                      > > > > > >> > to a bigger boat?
                      > > > > > >> >
                      > > > > > >> >
                      > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • John Kohnen
                      Be careful when you hear a boat being called a Colin Archer, that one for sale wasn t designed or built by Colin Archer, who died in 1921. The boat in the ad
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 9, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Be careful when you hear a boat being called a "Colin Archer," that one
                        for sale wasn't designed or built by Colin Archer, who died in 1921. The
                        boat in the ad was built in 1991 and designed by somw guy named Janssen!
                        <sigh> Unfortunately, many double-ended boats built long after Colin
                        Archer's demise get described as "Colin Archers." Some of them are
                        Scandinavian fishing and work boats designed after Archer's death, but
                        incorporating some of his ideas for reforming and improving the types,
                        some are pleasure boats that may just _look_ kinda like a Colin Archer
                        double-ender, a few might be newer boats built to the old designs. Not
                        all double-enders are the same...

                        William and John Atkin acknowledge the basis for their seagoing
                        double-enders, but intelligently "Atkinized" their boats for better
                        performance. Although the Atkin double-enders aren't Colin Archer designs
                        (even Eric was tweaked a bit), they retain most of the seaworthiness of
                        the type and are more suitable for pleasure sailing than their fishing and
                        rescue boat ancestors.

                        Using hatches and/or skylights to provide a few places where you can stand
                        up tall and stretch is a much better idea than raising the whole deck of a
                        seagoing boat. One of the great writing yacht designers (Francis
                        Herreshoff?) wrote that all the things worth doing in the cabin of a
                        sailboat, you do either sitting or lying down. I can think of one thing he
                        missed -- pulling up your pants -- but that can be done under a hatch or
                        skylight. <g>

                        A few weeks ago I was wandering around the Charleston (Oregon) shipyard
                        when I was shocked to see that a beautiful old sailboat was being cut up.
                        I'd long admired the boat, but had hated to see it dying from neglect at
                        the dock (it hadn't been hauled in 20 years!). It had been sold a while
                        back, and I had hopes the new owner would give the girl a new life. But
                        there he was sawing her up! He said that while the boat was sound below
                        the waterline, fresh water had done so much damage to the topsides he
                        couldn't afford to fix her, and his conscience wouldn't let him pass her
                        on to another starry eyed dreamer. <sigh> We talked about the old hippy
                        who'd owned her, and lived aboard her for many, many years. The new owner
                        said, "the trouble was that Lee tried to solve a housing problem with a
                        sailboat." Does it make sense to build a seagoing sailboat, one that could
                        easily sail 'round the World, to solve a housing problem? Motorboats make
                        better live-aboards anyway, and used ones can be found for good prices.

                        On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 22:05:33 -0700, air_2_fly wrote:

                        > ...
                        > After seeing the pictures of this Colin Archer for sale:
                        > http://www.rightboat.com/Colin-Archer-Double-Ender/boat-12027989/
                        >
                        > I think I could have a skylight or two in the center of a flush deck of
                        > a smaller boat. This link will not last if the boat sells, so I made
                        > copies of the pictures. Very nice boat. I'm getting some good ideas.
                        > ...

                        --
                        John <jkohnen@...>
                        Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you get
                        a lot of scum on the top. <Edward Abbey>
                      • air_2_fly
                        Thanks for the info. I noticed differences in the various Archer type designs. I ll be careful about what gets called what, too. The higher priced boats give
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 9, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thanks for the info. I noticed differences in the various Archer type designs. I'll be careful about what gets called what, too. The higher priced boats give me ideas about what to do with interiors and non-structural items. I would like to be a build per plans person. The thousands of hours and tuning that go into something should be respected. I have plans to a very neat prewar cabin cruiser that I would build if I wanted to deal with a motor. I've also lived without refrigerators and water heaters (rigged up a solar water heater with coiled hose and it worked great) before in a small space. It just would be nice to have some headroom, at least, between the beams. I can live with that. I have more information on the way about Thistle and Fram. Fram may be too big, but I'll just have to see what both look like. I can't wait for my Colin Archer book to get here. There are supposed to be drawings in this book, but from what I read, Colin Archer didn't make a set of plans as a boatyard would see them. I'm not going to be a designer so I'll have to just choose the best design I can find. Designers and others have talked at length about the Colin Archer design and how a change somewhere can affect his idea. So far, I feel pretty comfortable with the Atkin version. I'm still going to be reading alot and I thank any that can share their experience. This boat is very interesting and I just like the looks of it and the safe Atkin version is compelling. Also, this boat will travel and I won't be in a hurry. I'm particular about what I travel in.

                          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Be careful when you hear a boat being called a "Colin Archer," that one
                          > for sale wasn't designed or built by Colin Archer, who died in 1921. The
                          > boat in the ad was built in 1991 and designed by somw guy named Janssen!
                          > <sigh> Unfortunately, many double-ended boats built long after Colin
                          > Archer's demise get described as "Colin Archers." Some of them are
                          > Scandinavian fishing and work boats designed after Archer's death, but
                          > incorporating some of his ideas for reforming and improving the types,
                          > some are pleasure boats that may just _look_ kinda like a Colin Archer
                          > double-ender, a few might be newer boats built to the old designs. Not
                          > all double-enders are the same...
                          >
                          > William and John Atkin acknowledge the basis for their seagoing
                          > double-enders, but intelligently "Atkinized" their boats for better
                          > performance. Although the Atkin double-enders aren't Colin Archer designs
                          > (even Eric was tweaked a bit), they retain most of the seaworthiness of
                          > the type and are more suitable for pleasure sailing than their fishing and
                          > rescue boat ancestors.
                          >
                          > Using hatches and/or skylights to provide a few places where you can stand
                          > up tall and stretch is a much better idea than raising the whole deck of a
                          > seagoing boat. One of the great writing yacht designers (Francis
                          > Herreshoff?) wrote that all the things worth doing in the cabin of a
                          > sailboat, you do either sitting or lying down. I can think of one thing he
                          > missed -- pulling up your pants -- but that can be done under a hatch or
                          > skylight. <g>
                          >
                          > A few weeks ago I was wandering around the Charleston (Oregon) shipyard
                          > when I was shocked to see that a beautiful old sailboat was being cut up.
                          > I'd long admired the boat, but had hated to see it dying from neglect at
                          > the dock (it hadn't been hauled in 20 years!). It had been sold a while
                          > back, and I had hopes the new owner would give the girl a new life. But
                          > there he was sawing her up! He said that while the boat was sound below
                          > the waterline, fresh water had done so much damage to the topsides he
                          > couldn't afford to fix her, and his conscience wouldn't let him pass her
                          > on to another starry eyed dreamer. <sigh> We talked about the old hippy
                          > who'd owned her, and lived aboard her for many, many years. The new owner
                          > said, "the trouble was that Lee tried to solve a housing problem with a
                          > sailboat." Does it make sense to build a seagoing sailboat, one that could
                          > easily sail 'round the World, to solve a housing problem? Motorboats make
                          > better live-aboards anyway, and used ones can be found for good prices.
                          >
                          > On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 22:05:33 -0700, air_2_fly wrote:
                          >
                          > > ...
                          > > After seeing the pictures of this Colin Archer for sale:
                          > > http://www.rightboat.com/Colin-Archer-Double-Ender/boat-12027989/
                          > >
                          > > I think I could have a skylight or two in the center of a flush deck of
                          > > a smaller boat. This link will not last if the boat sells, so I made
                          > > copies of the pictures. Very nice boat. I'm getting some good ideas.
                          > > ...
                          >
                          > --
                          > John <jkohnen@...>
                          > Society is like a stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you get
                          > a lot of scum on the top. <Edward Abbey>
                          >
                        • lon wells
                          ... We talked about the old hippy   who d owned her, and lived aboard her for many, many years. The new owner  said, the trouble was that Lee tried to
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 10, 2009
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                            --- On Sun, 8/9/09, John Kohnen <jkohnen@...> wrote:
                            "We talked about the old hippy   who'd owned her, and lived aboard her for many, many years. The new owner  said, "the trouble was that Lee tried to solve a  housing problem with a sailboat." Does it make sense to build a seagoing sailboat, one that could   easily sail 'round the World, to solve a housing problem?"

                            Yes it does. So much of our lives are about dreams and emotion. While we might drudge away our lives at some job for a living having that live board sail boat gives us the dream of freedom. Very few sailboats, sail around the world or make large passages. Most live a life at the dock going on day sails, weekend getaways and yearly vacations. The few that leave on a world passage usually go broke somewhere and don't make it. We all need to live somewhere so if we live where we can have the dream of freedom it adds to our value of life.
                            Lon
                            "That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a
                            keel and hull and a deck and sails. That's what a ship
                            needs. But what a ship is... what the Black Pearl
                            really is... is freedom" - Capt. Jack Sparrow
                          • Patrick Blanchard
                            Well put Ion, thanks. While reading about an informal survey of circumnavigators, a survey of boat size in the bay of remote islands that are on more than 1
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 10, 2009
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                              Well put Ion, thanks.

                              While reading about an informal survey of circumnavigators, a survey of boat
                              size in the bay of remote islands that are on more than 1
                              circumnavigation...average 32.5 feet (not all double enders though). What
                              this means to me is 32.5 feet works for circumnavigation. Probably the sweet
                              spot for practicality, safety and budget. Add to that the double ender bonus
                              w/ Eric and Thistle and Dragon. I don't think anyone can formulate it, it's
                              goes beyond the science of 'what size boat is right'- it's got to be a
                              talley of sucess. It's also the same size of the Eric., which of course
                              makes me giddy.


                              On 8/10/09, lon wells <lononriver@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- On Sun, 8/9/09, John Kohnen <jkohnen@...<jkohnen%40boat-links.com>>
                              > wrote:
                              > "We talked about the old hippy who'd owned her, and lived aboard her for
                              > many, many years. The new owner said, "the trouble was that Lee tried to
                              > solve a housing problem with a sailboat." Does it make sense to build a
                              > seagoing sailboat, one that could easily sail 'round the World, to solve a
                              > housing problem?"
                              >
                              > Yes it does. So much of our lives are about dreams and emotion. While we
                              > might drudge away our lives at some job for a living having that live board
                              > sail boat gives us the dream of freedom. Very few sailboats, sail around the
                              > world or make large passages. Most live a life at the dock going on day
                              > sails, weekend getaways and yearly vacations. The few that leave on a world
                              > passage usually go broke somewhere and don't make it. We all need to live
                              > somewhere so if we live where we can have the dream of freedom it adds to
                              > our value of life.
                              > Lon
                              > "That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a
                              > keel and hull and a deck and sails. That's what a ship
                              > needs. But what a ship is... what the Black Pearl
                              > really is... is freedom" - Capt. Jack Sparrow
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • oljaij
                              Please excuse me for reply is some 5 years late . I have a Thistle and headroom is 197cm (6.4)
                              Message 14 of 14 , Sep 4, 2014
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                                Please excuse me for reply is some 5 years late . I have a Thistle and headroom is 197cm (6.4)
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