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Re: [AtkinBoats] Re: Gwen o' the River

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  • John Kohnen
    The Elements of Boat Strength: For Builders, Designers, and Owners, by Dave Gerr. Gwen o the River uses a frameless cross-planked bottom. On small boats I say
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 6, 2009
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      The Elements of Boat Strength: For Builders, Designers, and Owners, by
      Dave Gerr.

      Gwen o' the River uses a frameless cross-planked bottom. On small boats I
      say just put plywood planking on with the sheets running crosswise, since
      bottom frames are a terrible thing in a small boat (in this I disagree
      with John Atkin), but on a boat the size of GotR I'd have to recommend
      full framing for plywood construction. So GotR would have to be
      reengineered for plywood planking and limited trailerability. Not a
      trivial task.

      On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:58:22 -0800, Vancouver Jon wrote:

      > My point was by replacing the planking with plywood of the same
      > thickness and in many cases a little thiner it has more strength. In
      > the case of a wet boat (planking that is sweled to seal) it can be
      > lighter with plywood and encapsolating. Encapsolation eliminates the
      > water weight and the timber frames ect . exspansion and contraction. A
      > good book would be one on the principles of boat strength. I don't
      > recall the exact title but John may know and who it is by.

      --
      John <jkohnen@...>
      Never board a ship without an onion, is sound doctrine. <H. W.
      Tilman>
    • John Kohnen
      Well put, Bob. Thanks. ... -- John To delight in war is a merit in the soldier, a dangerous quality in the captain, and a positive
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 6, 2009
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        Well put, Bob. Thanks.

        On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:08:33 -0800, Bob J wrote:

        > You received a correct answer to your question. That is, as designed,
        > for traditional wooden boat construction, Gwen is not a "trailerable
        > boat". Can it be made so? Of course, but it would be up to the
        > BUILDER to insure that HIS construction is robust enough to stand up to
        > the rigors of what ever use he intends to put it, and to insure that HE
        > has the equipment and knowledge to safely do so.
        > ...

        --
        John <jkohnen@...>
        To delight in war is a merit in the soldier, a dangerous quality
        in the captain, and a positive crime in the statesman. <George
        Santayana>
      • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
        The study plans that I have of Lady of the Lake off the net shows frames but not real clearly and 1-1/4 x6 Cypress planking. The differance in the two Ladies
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 6, 2009
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          The study plans that I have of Lady of the Lake off the net shows
          frames but not real clearly and 1-1/4"x6" Cypress planking. The
          differance in the two Ladies is small. Trailered boats need to be
          stiffer and stronger then nontrailered to hold up the road. In a boat
          this size with a understanding of ply on frame by some one with
          practical expereince conversion would not be hard but must be
          adequate to make the boat strong enough. Then again others would go
          stich and glue hmmmmmm.

          Jon

          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@...> wrote:
          >
          > The Elements of Boat Strength: For Builders, Designers, and Owners,
          by
          > Dave Gerr.
          >
          > Gwen o' the River uses a frameless cross-planked bottom. On small
          boats I
          > say just put plywood planking on with the sheets running crosswise,
          since
          > bottom frames are a terrible thing in a small boat (in this I
          disagree
          > with John Atkin), but on a boat the size of GotR I'd have to
          recommend
          > full framing for plywood construction. So GotR would have to be
          > reengineered for plywood planking and limited trailerability. Not
          a
          > trivial task.
          >
          > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:58:22 -0800, Vancouver Jon wrote:
          >
          > > My point was by replacing the planking with plywood of the same
          > > thickness and in many cases a little thiner it has more strength.
          In
          > > the case of a wet boat (planking that is sweled to seal) it can be
          > > lighter with plywood and encapsolating. Encapsolation eliminates
          the
          > > water weight and the timber frames ect . exspansion and
          contraction. A
          > > good book would be one on the principles of boat strength. I don't
          > > recall the exact title but John may know and who it is by.
          >
          > --
          > John <jkohnen@...>
          > Never board a ship without an onion, is sound doctrine. <H. W.
          > Tilman>
          >
        • Steve
          ... Well, I am all for conversion to modern materils. They are lighter, stronger and make the build quicker and easier. True traditionalists will no doubt
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 8, 2009
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            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > The study plans that I have of Lady of the Lake off the net shows
            > frames but not real clearly and 1-1/4"x6" Cypress planking. The
            > differance in the two Ladies is small. Trailered boats need to be
            > stiffer and stronger then nontrailered to hold up the road. In a boat
            > this size with a understanding of ply on frame by some one with
            > practical expereince conversion would not be hard but must be
            > adequate to make the boat strong enough. Then again others would go
            > stich and glue hmmmmmm.
            >
            > Jon
            >
            Well, I am all for conversion to modern materils. They are lighter,
            stronger and make the build quicker and easier. True "traditionalists "
            will no doubt disagree with me, but I'm OK with that. The end result
            looks just like the original, but will most likely perform better and
            require less maintenance.

            FYI, the extended "Hope" in my photos has a 1/2" sheet ply bottom and
            two layers of 3/16" ply laid double diagonally on the topsides. The
            frames are 3" x 3/4", and the stringers are 1" x 3/4". There are also
            two floor height girders (1/2" ply)running nearly the full length of
            the boat.

            For "Lady of the Lake", I would suggest 2 x 1/2" ply for the bottom and
            single 1/2" topsides. This boat could easily be built upright..
          • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
            Nice job on Extream Hope Steve. In the lady I am thinking twolayers of 3/8 may be enough for the bottom cold molded with the sides 1/2 deck 1/2 the cabin
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 8, 2009
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              Nice job on Extream Hope Steve. In the lady I am thinking twolayers
              of 3/8" may be enough for the bottom cold molded with the sides 1/2"
              deck 1/2" the cabin sides 3/8" and 1/2" cabbin top all depending on
              stringer and frame spacing. Heavy glass the bottom and sides with 16-
              18Oz. of glass deck and cabbin top with 6 Oz. and cabbin sides with 3-
              3.5 Oz. I would do the hull upside down it makes cold molding and
              glassing easyer. --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
              <classiccraft@...> wrote:
              > Well, I am all for conversion to modern materils. They are lighter,
              > stronger and make the build quicker and easier.
              True "traditionalists "
              > will no doubt disagree with me, but I'm OK with that. The end
              result
              > looks just like the original, but will most likely perform better
              and
              > require less maintenance.
              >
              > FYI, the extended "Hope" in my photos has a 1/2" sheet ply bottom
              and
              > two layers of 3/16" ply laid double diagonally on the topsides. The
              > frames are 3" x 3/4", and the stringers are 1" x 3/4". There are
              also
              > two floor height girders (1/2" ply)running nearly the full length
              of
              > the boat.
              >
              > For "Lady of the Lake", I would suggest 2 x 1/2" ply for the bottom
              and
              > single 1/2" topsides. This boat could easily be built upright..
              >
            • Steve
              ... Well, just so you can see I know what I am talking about, I have added two pics of a 42ft flat bottomed motorsailer I am building ....upright. The bottom
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 8, 2009
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                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Nice job on Extream Hope Steve. In the lady I am thinking twolayers
                > of 3/8" may be enough for the bottom cold molded with the sides 1/2"
                > deck 1/2" the cabin sides 3/8" and 1/2" cabbin top all depending on
                > stringer and frame spacing. Heavy glass the bottom and sides with 16-
                > 18Oz. of glass deck and cabbin top with 6 Oz. and cabbin sides with 3-
                > 3.5 Oz. I would do the hull upside down it makes cold molding and
                > glassing easyer.

                Well, just so you can see I know what I am talking about, I have added
                two pics of a 42ft flat bottomed motorsailer I am building ....upright.
                The bottom was glassed first and turned over. I needed no building
                frames or molds. The bottom was flexible enough to set the rocker in
                easily. The advantages of this method are 1./you don't have the expense
                and drama of turning a complete hull, and 2./most of the fitout can be
                done before the topsides or cabin sides go on. No climbing over the
                sides of the boat - just walk in and out. Topsides and chine get
                glassed later - no problem.
              • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                Looks like a good start and with the shape works pritty well. This little 32 hull is a little more complex with the tightness of curves so I built it upside
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 8, 2009
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                  Looks like a good start and with the shape works pritty well.
                  This little 32' hull is a little more complex with the tightness of
                  curves so I built it upside down. The good photos of the turning
                  party where taken by John Kohnen.
                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/jons_boat_building/sets/7215760270901439/
                  At the bow it is 90 degrees on the cut water wraping back to the
                  flaired side in 6' with the bottom at the bow having a pritty good
                  trist with slight V and the stern rolling up. It is cold molded from
                  two layers of 3/8" MDO set at right angles to each other. I don't
                  think I could have gotten the shape in the upright. For glassing
                  fairing and sanging with 10 Oz then 6 Oz. cloth turning was easyer
                  then working on the floor to get this finish.
                  Depending on the boat and what you want to do each boat has its way
                  of building to make it easiest. Did I mention the design is from
                  scrach and will have no through hulls below the water line. I do envy
                  the walk in aspect of what you are doing.

                  Jon


                  >
                  > Well, just so you can see I know what I am talking about, I have
                  added
                  > two pics of a 42ft flat bottomed motorsailer I am
                  building ....upright.
                  > The bottom was glassed first and turned over. I needed no building
                  > frames or molds. The bottom was flexible enough to set the rocker
                  in
                  > easily. The advantages of this method are 1./you don't have the
                  expense
                  > and drama of turning a complete hull, and 2./most of the fitout can
                  be
                  > done before the topsides or cabin sides go on. No climbing over the
                  > sides of the boat - just walk in and out. Topsides and chine get
                  > glassed later - no problem.
                  >
                • Steve
                  ... http://www.flickr.com/photos/jons_boat_building/sets/7215760270901439/ ... from ... envy ... you wanted to build a Gwen or Lady of the Lake which would
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 8, 2009
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                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Looks like a good start and with the shape works pritty well.
                    > This little 32' hull is a little more complex with the tightness of
                    > curves so I built it upside down. The good photos of the turning
                    > party where taken by John Kohnen.
                    >
                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jons_boat_building/sets/7215760270901439/
                    > At the bow it is 90 degrees on the cut water wraping back to the
                    > flaired side in 6' with the bottom at the bow having a pritty good
                    > trist with slight V and the stern rolling up. It is cold molded
                    from
                    > two layers of 3/8" MDO set at right angles to each other. I don't
                    > think I could have gotten the shape in the upright. For glassing
                    > fairing and sanging with 10 Oz then 6 Oz. cloth turning was easyer
                    > then working on the floor to get this finish.
                    > Depending on the boat and what you want to do each boat has its way
                    > of building to make it easiest. Did I mention the design is from
                    > scrach and will have no through hulls below the water line. I do
                    envy
                    > the walk in aspect of what you are doing.
                    >
                    > Jon
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > Ok, I see what you are doing - looks good. I got confused, thought
                    you wanted to build a "Gwen" or "Lady of the Lake" which would suit
                    the upright construction method. Have posted some updated pics of my
                    project.
                  • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                    I looked at all three of the Atkins sternwheeler designs but they didn t offer what I wanted. I looked at all kinds of house boats and some where close but
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 9, 2009
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                      I looked at all three of the Atkins sternwheeler designs but they
                      didn't offer what I wanted. I looked at all kinds of house boats and
                      some where close but just not right. Then I spent a year and a half
                      exploreing old and new sternwheelers and started designing my owen.
                      When it comes to this thread I like you are just tossing out thoughts.

                      Jon

                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <classiccraft@...> wrote:

                      > > Ok, I see what you are doing - looks good. I got confused, thought
                      > you wanted to build a "Gwen" or "Lady of the Lake" which would suit
                      > the upright construction method. Have posted some updated pics of my
                      > project.
                      >
                    • Steve
                      ... Yeah, I m with you there...started out wanting a houseboat, then realised it would be a lot more useful if it could travel at 7 knots with small horsepower
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 9, 2009
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                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > I looked at all three of the Atkins sternwheeler designs but they
                        > didn't offer what I wanted. I looked at all kinds of house boats and
                        > some where close but just not right. Then I spent a year and a half
                        > exploreing old and new sternwheelers and started designing my owen.
                        > When it comes to this thread I like you are just tossing out thoughts.
                        >
                        > Jon
                        >
                        > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <classiccraft@> wrote:
                        >
                        Yeah, I'm with you there...started out wanting a houseboat, then
                        realised it would be a lot more useful if it could travel at 7 knots
                        with small horsepower , and do coastal passages in safety and comfort.
                        Oh,...and could sail.Couldn't find plans to suit, so just started
                        building. Still only got a pencil sketch on a piece of ply (added).
                      • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                        I find Calson Hulls and Freeship programs to be good and lurning curve is not to bad for working on designs. One of the principles of sternwheels is the bigger
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 10, 2009
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                          I find Calson Hulls and Freeship programs to be good and lurning curve
                          is not to bad for working on designs. One of the principles of
                          sternwheels is the bigger the wheel the more efficent as long as it is
                          not to big for the boat it is on. Larger wheels have a better angle
                          entering and leaving the water so less energy is wasted and less drag.
                          A V bow cuts through the water better and pushes debris in the water to
                          the side as aposed to a scow plowing to some extent. My biggest want
                          was room for a queen bed and room for family and friends and tankage
                          for a couple weeks. I live about 100 RM up the Columbia in the NW US so
                          a sternwheeler is a ideal boat and wont look like just another plastic
                          boat. Down your way coastal cruseing is a way of life. Our choices will
                          make us each happy. When some one builds a boat I think they need to
                          decide what they want to use it for and in what kind of water then look
                          to that end. I like a lot of Atkins designs but would like to see
                          someone at some time redo them for modern methods materials and power
                          plants. Opps blaspheme

                          Jon


                          > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <classiccraft@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > Yeah, I'm with you there...started out wanting a houseboat, then
                          > realised it would be a lot more useful if it could travel at 7 knots
                          > with small horsepower , and do coastal passages in safety and
                          comfort.
                          > Oh,...and could sail.Couldn't find plans to suit, so just started
                          > building. Still only got a pencil sketch on a piece of ply (added).
                          >
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