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RE: Gwen o' the River

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  • Bob Johnson
    You received a correct answer to your question. That is, as designed, for traditional wooden boat construction, Gwen is not a trailerable boat . Can it be
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 4, 2009
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      You received a correct answer to your question. That is, as designed,
      for traditional wooden boat construction, Gwen is not a "trailerable
      boat". Can it be made so? Of course, but it would be up to the
      BUILDER to insure that HIS construction is robust enough to stand up to
      the rigors of what ever use he intends to put it, and to insure that HE
      has the equipment and knowledge to safely do so.

      Any boat can be moved overland by someone with the right knowledge and
      equipment. Gwen's length and beam are within the legal limits for
      trailerability for most of the states in the US. However, the
      displacement of the boat most likely will put it out of the realm of
      easy trailerability for most people. I did a quick estimate of the
      displacement based on the length, beam, and draft, and I'd say it's
      going to be at least 7500 pounds or so. Not impossible, but certainly
      more than I'd like to deal with very often (and more than my truck can
      pull).

      If you built the boat with plywood and epoxy, you could make it plenty
      sturdy enough to be trailered, but the onus would be on you to engineer
      it so.

      Keep in mind that all of the Atkin boats were designed by Billy and
      John Atkin, father and son, years ago. Both have passed on, Billy in
      1962 and John in 1999. The plans are now sold by John's elderly
      (though she may not agree with that term) widow, Pat Atkin.

      There is no more technical information to be had from the designers.

      This web group is made up of enthusiasts of the Atkin designs, not
      experts.

      So you are the only one who can decide if you have the knowledge and
      skills are up to the task of taking a very old design intended for
      traditional construction and building it in more modern materials and
      for a use that was not originally envisioned. If you don't, and plenty
      of us do not, there are Naval Architects and Engineers that would be
      happy to consult on the projects. Perhaps you should seek one out.

      Best of luck with whatever project you decide on.

      ---
      Bob

      > 1. Gwen o' the River?
      > From: my48cj2a
      >
      >
      > Message
      > _______________________________________________________________________
      > _
      > 1. Gwen o' the River?
      > Posted by: "my48cj2a" my48cj2a@... my48cj2a
      > Date: Tue Feb 3, 2009 6:59 am ((PST))
      >
      > Can this be made to put on a trailer? Most people do not live on the
      > water.I really like the boat and want to build it.What would stop it
      > from becoming a trailerable boat? Will it break at some point? Is it
      > not sturdy? The Atkins person said it can't be trailerd and that was
      > it. Why not? All those people who won't build a Gwen o' the River
      > because of the lack of info. Are your customers worth the time? The
      > sternwheeler Showboat is seen more in the water. And that is because
      > they can get it there. Sorry to sound so harsh but as a customer I
      > would expect more of an answer than one sentence. Are we worth the
      > time? It seems like you would sell more plans if you could get the boat
      > to the water(Just an idea).That Bolger Tennessee is looking better by
      > the minute.
    • David Calloway
      That is a very thoughtful and thorough answer. As a guy who is going to build an Atkins MotoSkiff with more modern materials, I think you were right on.
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 4, 2009
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        That is a very thoughtful and thorough answer. As a guy who is going to
        build an Atkins "MotoSkiff" with more modern materials, I think you were
        right on.



        David



        From: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Bob Johnson
        Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 3:09 PM
        To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AtkinBoats] RE: Gwen o' the River



        You received a correct answer to your question. That is, as designed,
        for traditional wooden boat construction, Gwen is not a "trailerable
        boat". Can it be made so? Of course, but it would be up to the
        BUILDER to insure that HIS construction is robust enough to stand up to
        the rigors of what ever use he intends to put it, and to insure that HE
        has the equipment and knowledge to safely do so.

        Any boat can be moved overland by someone with the right knowledge and
        equipment. Gwen's length and beam are within the legal limits for
        trailerability for most of the states in the US. However, the
        displacement of the boat most likely will put it out of the realm of
        easy trailerability for most people. I did a quick estimate of the
        displacement based on the length, beam, and draft, and I'd say it's
        going to be at least 7500 pounds or so. Not impossible, but certainly
        more than I'd like to deal with very often (and more than my truck can
        pull).

        If you built the boat with plywood and epoxy, you could make it plenty
        sturdy enough to be trailered, but the onus would be on you to engineer
        it so.

        Keep in mind that all of the Atkin boats were designed by Billy and
        John Atkin, father and son, years ago. Both have passed on, Billy in
        1962 and John in 1999. The plans are now sold by John's elderly
        (though she may not agree with that term) widow, Pat Atkin.

        There is no more technical information to be had from the designers.

        This web group is made up of enthusiasts of the Atkin designs, not
        experts.

        So you are the only one who can decide if you have the knowledge and
        skills are up to the task of taking a very old design intended for
        traditional construction and building it in more modern materials and
        for a use that was not originally envisioned. If you don't, and plenty
        of us do not, there are Naval Architects and Engineers that would be
        happy to consult on the projects. Perhaps you should seek one out.

        Best of luck with whatever project you decide on.

        ---
        Bob

        > 1. Gwen o' the River?
        > From: my48cj2a
        >
        >
        > Message
        > __________________________________________________________
        > _
        > 1. Gwen o' the River?
        > Posted by: "my48cj2a" my48cj2a@... <mailto:my48cj2a%40yahoo.com>
        my48cj2a
        > Date: Tue Feb 3, 2009 6:59 am ((PST))
        >
        > Can this be made to put on a trailer? Most people do not live on the
        > water.I really like the boat and want to build it.What would stop it
        > from becoming a trailerable boat? Will it break at some point? Is it
        > not sturdy? The Atkins person said it can't be trailerd and that was
        > it. Why not? All those people who won't build a Gwen o' the River
        > because of the lack of info. Are your customers worth the time? The
        > sternwheeler Showboat is seen more in the water. And that is because
        > they can get it there. Sorry to sound so harsh but as a customer I
        > would expect more of an answer than one sentence. Are we worth the
        > time? It seems like you would sell more plans if you could get the boat
        > to the water(Just an idea).That Bolger Tennessee is looking better by
        > the minute.





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bob Johnson
        I should add to what I wrote in my previous post that the main reason Gwen is not a trailerable boat is due to the traditional planked wooden construction.
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 4, 2009
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          I should add to what I wrote in my previous post that the main reason
          Gwen is not a trailerable boat is due to the traditional planked wooden
          construction. Boats built in this fashion need to be kept in the water
          most of the time so that the planking does not dry out and open up the
          seams. The larger the timbers involved, the greater the potential
          movement. A newly launched boat of traditional construction may leak
          for a while until the planks swell and the seams close up. Taken out
          of the water for too long, and they may open back up.

          Bob
        • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
          My point was by replacing the planking with plywood of the same thickness and in many cases a little thiner it has more strength. In the case of a wet boat
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 4, 2009
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            My point was by replacing the planking with plywood of the same
            thickness and in many cases a little thiner it has more strength. In
            the case of a wet boat (planking that is sweled to seal) it can be
            lighter with plywood and encapsolating. Encapsolation eliminates the
            water weight and the timber frames ect . exspansion and contraction. A
            good book would be one on the principles of boat strength. I don't
            recall the exact title but John may know and who it is by.

            Jon

            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Bob Johnson <dredbob@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I should add to what I wrote in my previous post that the main reason
            > Gwen is not a trailerable boat is due to the traditional planked
            wooden
            > construction. Boats built in this fashion need to be kept in the
            water
            > most of the time so that the planking does not dry out and open up
            the
            > seams. The larger the timbers involved, the greater the potential
            > movement. A newly launched boat of traditional construction may leak
            > for a while until the planks swell and the seams close up. Taken out
            > of the water for too long, and they may open back up.
            >
            > Bob
            >
          • John Kohnen
            The Elements of Boat Strength: For Builders, Designers, and Owners, by Dave Gerr. Gwen o the River uses a frameless cross-planked bottom. On small boats I say
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 6, 2009
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              The Elements of Boat Strength: For Builders, Designers, and Owners, by
              Dave Gerr.

              Gwen o' the River uses a frameless cross-planked bottom. On small boats I
              say just put plywood planking on with the sheets running crosswise, since
              bottom frames are a terrible thing in a small boat (in this I disagree
              with John Atkin), but on a boat the size of GotR I'd have to recommend
              full framing for plywood construction. So GotR would have to be
              reengineered for plywood planking and limited trailerability. Not a
              trivial task.

              On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:58:22 -0800, Vancouver Jon wrote:

              > My point was by replacing the planking with plywood of the same
              > thickness and in many cases a little thiner it has more strength. In
              > the case of a wet boat (planking that is sweled to seal) it can be
              > lighter with plywood and encapsolating. Encapsolation eliminates the
              > water weight and the timber frames ect . exspansion and contraction. A
              > good book would be one on the principles of boat strength. I don't
              > recall the exact title but John may know and who it is by.

              --
              John <jkohnen@...>
              Never board a ship without an onion, is sound doctrine. <H. W.
              Tilman>
            • John Kohnen
              Well put, Bob. Thanks. ... -- John To delight in war is a merit in the soldier, a dangerous quality in the captain, and a positive
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 6, 2009
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                Well put, Bob. Thanks.

                On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:08:33 -0800, Bob J wrote:

                > You received a correct answer to your question. That is, as designed,
                > for traditional wooden boat construction, Gwen is not a "trailerable
                > boat". Can it be made so? Of course, but it would be up to the
                > BUILDER to insure that HIS construction is robust enough to stand up to
                > the rigors of what ever use he intends to put it, and to insure that HE
                > has the equipment and knowledge to safely do so.
                > ...

                --
                John <jkohnen@...>
                To delight in war is a merit in the soldier, a dangerous quality
                in the captain, and a positive crime in the statesman. <George
                Santayana>
              • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                The study plans that I have of Lady of the Lake off the net shows frames but not real clearly and 1-1/4 x6 Cypress planking. The differance in the two Ladies
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 6, 2009
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                  The study plans that I have of Lady of the Lake off the net shows
                  frames but not real clearly and 1-1/4"x6" Cypress planking. The
                  differance in the two Ladies is small. Trailered boats need to be
                  stiffer and stronger then nontrailered to hold up the road. In a boat
                  this size with a understanding of ply on frame by some one with
                  practical expereince conversion would not be hard but must be
                  adequate to make the boat strong enough. Then again others would go
                  stich and glue hmmmmmm.

                  Jon

                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The Elements of Boat Strength: For Builders, Designers, and Owners,
                  by
                  > Dave Gerr.
                  >
                  > Gwen o' the River uses a frameless cross-planked bottom. On small
                  boats I
                  > say just put plywood planking on with the sheets running crosswise,
                  since
                  > bottom frames are a terrible thing in a small boat (in this I
                  disagree
                  > with John Atkin), but on a boat the size of GotR I'd have to
                  recommend
                  > full framing for plywood construction. So GotR would have to be
                  > reengineered for plywood planking and limited trailerability. Not
                  a
                  > trivial task.
                  >
                  > On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:58:22 -0800, Vancouver Jon wrote:
                  >
                  > > My point was by replacing the planking with plywood of the same
                  > > thickness and in many cases a little thiner it has more strength.
                  In
                  > > the case of a wet boat (planking that is sweled to seal) it can be
                  > > lighter with plywood and encapsolating. Encapsolation eliminates
                  the
                  > > water weight and the timber frames ect . exspansion and
                  contraction. A
                  > > good book would be one on the principles of boat strength. I don't
                  > > recall the exact title but John may know and who it is by.
                  >
                  > --
                  > John <jkohnen@...>
                  > Never board a ship without an onion, is sound doctrine. <H. W.
                  > Tilman>
                  >
                • Steve
                  ... Well, I am all for conversion to modern materils. They are lighter, stronger and make the build quicker and easier. True traditionalists will no doubt
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 8, 2009
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                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > The study plans that I have of Lady of the Lake off the net shows
                    > frames but not real clearly and 1-1/4"x6" Cypress planking. The
                    > differance in the two Ladies is small. Trailered boats need to be
                    > stiffer and stronger then nontrailered to hold up the road. In a boat
                    > this size with a understanding of ply on frame by some one with
                    > practical expereince conversion would not be hard but must be
                    > adequate to make the boat strong enough. Then again others would go
                    > stich and glue hmmmmmm.
                    >
                    > Jon
                    >
                    Well, I am all for conversion to modern materils. They are lighter,
                    stronger and make the build quicker and easier. True "traditionalists "
                    will no doubt disagree with me, but I'm OK with that. The end result
                    looks just like the original, but will most likely perform better and
                    require less maintenance.

                    FYI, the extended "Hope" in my photos has a 1/2" sheet ply bottom and
                    two layers of 3/16" ply laid double diagonally on the topsides. The
                    frames are 3" x 3/4", and the stringers are 1" x 3/4". There are also
                    two floor height girders (1/2" ply)running nearly the full length of
                    the boat.

                    For "Lady of the Lake", I would suggest 2 x 1/2" ply for the bottom and
                    single 1/2" topsides. This boat could easily be built upright..
                  • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                    Nice job on Extream Hope Steve. In the lady I am thinking twolayers of 3/8 may be enough for the bottom cold molded with the sides 1/2 deck 1/2 the cabin
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 8, 2009
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                      Nice job on Extream Hope Steve. In the lady I am thinking twolayers
                      of 3/8" may be enough for the bottom cold molded with the sides 1/2"
                      deck 1/2" the cabin sides 3/8" and 1/2" cabbin top all depending on
                      stringer and frame spacing. Heavy glass the bottom and sides with 16-
                      18Oz. of glass deck and cabbin top with 6 Oz. and cabbin sides with 3-
                      3.5 Oz. I would do the hull upside down it makes cold molding and
                      glassing easyer. --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
                      <classiccraft@...> wrote:
                      > Well, I am all for conversion to modern materils. They are lighter,
                      > stronger and make the build quicker and easier.
                      True "traditionalists "
                      > will no doubt disagree with me, but I'm OK with that. The end
                      result
                      > looks just like the original, but will most likely perform better
                      and
                      > require less maintenance.
                      >
                      > FYI, the extended "Hope" in my photos has a 1/2" sheet ply bottom
                      and
                      > two layers of 3/16" ply laid double diagonally on the topsides. The
                      > frames are 3" x 3/4", and the stringers are 1" x 3/4". There are
                      also
                      > two floor height girders (1/2" ply)running nearly the full length
                      of
                      > the boat.
                      >
                      > For "Lady of the Lake", I would suggest 2 x 1/2" ply for the bottom
                      and
                      > single 1/2" topsides. This boat could easily be built upright..
                      >
                    • Steve
                      ... Well, just so you can see I know what I am talking about, I have added two pics of a 42ft flat bottomed motorsailer I am building ....upright. The bottom
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 8, 2009
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                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Nice job on Extream Hope Steve. In the lady I am thinking twolayers
                        > of 3/8" may be enough for the bottom cold molded with the sides 1/2"
                        > deck 1/2" the cabin sides 3/8" and 1/2" cabbin top all depending on
                        > stringer and frame spacing. Heavy glass the bottom and sides with 16-
                        > 18Oz. of glass deck and cabbin top with 6 Oz. and cabbin sides with 3-
                        > 3.5 Oz. I would do the hull upside down it makes cold molding and
                        > glassing easyer.

                        Well, just so you can see I know what I am talking about, I have added
                        two pics of a 42ft flat bottomed motorsailer I am building ....upright.
                        The bottom was glassed first and turned over. I needed no building
                        frames or molds. The bottom was flexible enough to set the rocker in
                        easily. The advantages of this method are 1./you don't have the expense
                        and drama of turning a complete hull, and 2./most of the fitout can be
                        done before the topsides or cabin sides go on. No climbing over the
                        sides of the boat - just walk in and out. Topsides and chine get
                        glassed later - no problem.
                      • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                        Looks like a good start and with the shape works pritty well. This little 32 hull is a little more complex with the tightness of curves so I built it upside
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 8, 2009
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                          Looks like a good start and with the shape works pritty well.
                          This little 32' hull is a little more complex with the tightness of
                          curves so I built it upside down. The good photos of the turning
                          party where taken by John Kohnen.
                          http://www.flickr.com/photos/jons_boat_building/sets/7215760270901439/
                          At the bow it is 90 degrees on the cut water wraping back to the
                          flaired side in 6' with the bottom at the bow having a pritty good
                          trist with slight V and the stern rolling up. It is cold molded from
                          two layers of 3/8" MDO set at right angles to each other. I don't
                          think I could have gotten the shape in the upright. For glassing
                          fairing and sanging with 10 Oz then 6 Oz. cloth turning was easyer
                          then working on the floor to get this finish.
                          Depending on the boat and what you want to do each boat has its way
                          of building to make it easiest. Did I mention the design is from
                          scrach and will have no through hulls below the water line. I do envy
                          the walk in aspect of what you are doing.

                          Jon


                          >
                          > Well, just so you can see I know what I am talking about, I have
                          added
                          > two pics of a 42ft flat bottomed motorsailer I am
                          building ....upright.
                          > The bottom was glassed first and turned over. I needed no building
                          > frames or molds. The bottom was flexible enough to set the rocker
                          in
                          > easily. The advantages of this method are 1./you don't have the
                          expense
                          > and drama of turning a complete hull, and 2./most of the fitout can
                          be
                          > done before the topsides or cabin sides go on. No climbing over the
                          > sides of the boat - just walk in and out. Topsides and chine get
                          > glassed later - no problem.
                          >
                        • Steve
                          ... http://www.flickr.com/photos/jons_boat_building/sets/7215760270901439/ ... from ... envy ... you wanted to build a Gwen or Lady of the Lake which would
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 8, 2009
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                            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Looks like a good start and with the shape works pritty well.
                            > This little 32' hull is a little more complex with the tightness of
                            > curves so I built it upside down. The good photos of the turning
                            > party where taken by John Kohnen.
                            >
                            http://www.flickr.com/photos/jons_boat_building/sets/7215760270901439/
                            > At the bow it is 90 degrees on the cut water wraping back to the
                            > flaired side in 6' with the bottom at the bow having a pritty good
                            > trist with slight V and the stern rolling up. It is cold molded
                            from
                            > two layers of 3/8" MDO set at right angles to each other. I don't
                            > think I could have gotten the shape in the upright. For glassing
                            > fairing and sanging with 10 Oz then 6 Oz. cloth turning was easyer
                            > then working on the floor to get this finish.
                            > Depending on the boat and what you want to do each boat has its way
                            > of building to make it easiest. Did I mention the design is from
                            > scrach and will have no through hulls below the water line. I do
                            envy
                            > the walk in aspect of what you are doing.
                            >
                            > Jon
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > Ok, I see what you are doing - looks good. I got confused, thought
                            you wanted to build a "Gwen" or "Lady of the Lake" which would suit
                            the upright construction method. Have posted some updated pics of my
                            project.
                          • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                            I looked at all three of the Atkins sternwheeler designs but they didn t offer what I wanted. I looked at all kinds of house boats and some where close but
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 9, 2009
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                              I looked at all three of the Atkins sternwheeler designs but they
                              didn't offer what I wanted. I looked at all kinds of house boats and
                              some where close but just not right. Then I spent a year and a half
                              exploreing old and new sternwheelers and started designing my owen.
                              When it comes to this thread I like you are just tossing out thoughts.

                              Jon

                              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <classiccraft@...> wrote:

                              > > Ok, I see what you are doing - looks good. I got confused, thought
                              > you wanted to build a "Gwen" or "Lady of the Lake" which would suit
                              > the upright construction method. Have posted some updated pics of my
                              > project.
                              >
                            • Steve
                              ... Yeah, I m with you there...started out wanting a houseboat, then realised it would be a lot more useful if it could travel at 7 knots with small horsepower
                              Message 14 of 15 , Feb 9, 2009
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                                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > I looked at all three of the Atkins sternwheeler designs but they
                                > didn't offer what I wanted. I looked at all kinds of house boats and
                                > some where close but just not right. Then I spent a year and a half
                                > exploreing old and new sternwheelers and started designing my owen.
                                > When it comes to this thread I like you are just tossing out thoughts.
                                >
                                > Jon
                                >
                                > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <classiccraft@> wrote:
                                >
                                Yeah, I'm with you there...started out wanting a houseboat, then
                                realised it would be a lot more useful if it could travel at 7 knots
                                with small horsepower , and do coastal passages in safety and comfort.
                                Oh,...and could sail.Couldn't find plans to suit, so just started
                                building. Still only got a pencil sketch on a piece of ply (added).
                              • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                                I find Calson Hulls and Freeship programs to be good and lurning curve is not to bad for working on designs. One of the principles of sternwheels is the bigger
                                Message 15 of 15 , Feb 10, 2009
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                                  I find Calson Hulls and Freeship programs to be good and lurning curve
                                  is not to bad for working on designs. One of the principles of
                                  sternwheels is the bigger the wheel the more efficent as long as it is
                                  not to big for the boat it is on. Larger wheels have a better angle
                                  entering and leaving the water so less energy is wasted and less drag.
                                  A V bow cuts through the water better and pushes debris in the water to
                                  the side as aposed to a scow plowing to some extent. My biggest want
                                  was room for a queen bed and room for family and friends and tankage
                                  for a couple weeks. I live about 100 RM up the Columbia in the NW US so
                                  a sternwheeler is a ideal boat and wont look like just another plastic
                                  boat. Down your way coastal cruseing is a way of life. Our choices will
                                  make us each happy. When some one builds a boat I think they need to
                                  decide what they want to use it for and in what kind of water then look
                                  to that end. I like a lot of Atkins designs but would like to see
                                  someone at some time redo them for modern methods materials and power
                                  plants. Opps blaspheme

                                  Jon


                                  > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <classiccraft@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > Yeah, I'm with you there...started out wanting a houseboat, then
                                  > realised it would be a lot more useful if it could travel at 7 knots
                                  > with small horsepower , and do coastal passages in safety and
                                  comfort.
                                  > Oh,...and could sail.Couldn't find plans to suit, so just started
                                  > building. Still only got a pencil sketch on a piece of ply (added).
                                  >
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