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Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

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  • Tim & Kris
    A few comments: 1.) A properly laminated frame is about 3/4 again stronger than a similarly dimensioned steam bent frame of the same material. 2.) Watch what
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 4, 2008
      A few comments:

      1.) A properly laminated frame is about 3/4 again stronger than a
      similarly dimensioned steam bent frame of the same material.

      2.) Watch what you use; both adhesives and wood. High oil content wood
      or wood with tyloses (i.e. teak, ipe, or white oak) don't laminate
      correctly unless it's done in a very controlled manner, and even then
      it's up for debate. Your adhesive choices are pretty much epoxy,
      resourcinal, or Polyurethane (non-foaming).

      3.) Lofting a boat where the table of offsets was derived from the
      drawings is a bit of a best fit exercise. Use good battens and work
      for the fairest line and you should be okay.

      4.) If your planning on cold molding, the frames are pretty much there
      for show when it's all said and done. I don't think this is
      necessarily a bad thing as having a hull be too strong is okay with
      me, and the interior room lost is minimal.

      Tim



      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...> wrote:
      >
      > Douglas,
      >
      > I don't want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built
      > a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this
      > in mind.
      >
      > I don't remember having read of a strict order for considering lines
      > in lofting corrections but on giving it some thought I would try this
      > and call it my best effort. I'd fair all the initial lines such as
      > sheer, keel, profile and plan lines the architect would have done
      > first. Then an architect would draw in three stations of
      > approximately the displacement he wants but I would give emphasis to
      > diagonals in lofting since he would have gone through several
      > iterations of that to get his drawings and what I mainly want to
      > achieve is a smooth, surface for planking and waterflow. Once
      > diagonals were fair, I'd work the changes into the stations trying to
      > leave the sheer and keel alone and, if at all possible, the rabbet as
      > drawn. This seems to me to make the boat fair and doable with the
      > least necessary changes to the architects intent.
      >
      > This describes more changes than you would probably actually have to
      > decide on. I would certainly like to hear yours or anyone else's
      > priorities in lofting as well. In the end you have to decide, since
      > the Atkin's aren't there it's up to you to "skin this cat".
      >
      > Mike Dolph
      >
      > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Aduacto,
      > >
      >
      > > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
      > gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
      > draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
      > try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
      > fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
      > correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything
      > to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is
      > very different from how it was done 75 years ago.
      > > Don Douglas
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
    • gordocutter_1
      Hi Douglas! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems, and I was trying to contact the guy ho told me about the laminated
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
        Hi Douglas! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to
        solve some problems, and I was trying to contact the guy ho told me
        about the laminated technique, and ask him about your questions,
        still didn't get a answer. Sadly I can not answer your questions
        about the weight of the cloth, or how it would look like the ended
        product, but I do have some clues about it:
        The frames are thin so, I suspect that they don't need too much
        strength to hold the spring back, I was thinking that one layer of
        fiberglass between four layers of wood can be enough to hold them, I
        think that the strength of the epoxi combine with the one layer of
        fiber can do the job properly, and if its stay between two layers
        of wood it would not be very visualize in the final product .
        For example four layers off wood with 3/16" and one layer between
        them of 1/8" fiberglass. That is how I think would work. If you put
        a layer of fiber between each layer of wood you would have to reduce
        the thickness of the wood in order to get the same dimensions of the
        frame (7/8") and the fiberglass would be more visualize if you do
        that way. When I get the answer of the guy that told me the tip, I
        keep you informed.

        Cheers
        Adaucto


        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Aduacto,
        >
        > I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the
        wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to
        my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between
        each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final
        laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look
        like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another
        question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the
        wood layers?
        >
        > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
        gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
        draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
        try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
        fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
        correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required
        everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets
        format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did
        make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that.
        Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast
        that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has
        all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-
        stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms
        up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.
        >
        > As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems
        to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the
        strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line
        them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold
        patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used
        to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that
        would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to
        incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that
        is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of
        the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to
        the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands
        start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard
        to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and
        spokeshaves sharp.
        >
        > Anyway that's the plan
        > Don Douglas
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • gordocutter_1
        Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don t understand why you can not.
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
          Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve
          some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don't
          understand why you can not. I'm surprised that you have a Brazilian
          kid, when you get any vacations here let me know; maybe we can do
          some "live" chat about boats. I'm glad too that I found a way for
          the construction. As for the wood, eucalyptus is not the final
          decision is just a study option, I'm open for others, but I'm still
          searching, I already talk with the suppliers of the lyptus in order
          to get some samples for doing some experiments with, lets see what's
          going to be…
          Cheers

          Adaucto



          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was
          as
          > long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My
          former
          > marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
          > there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after
          so
          > many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
          > income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
          > being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be
          more
          > than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
          > frames and structural members John Atkins specified.
          >
          > I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
          > some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but
          there
          > are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
          > different woods.
          >
          > I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch
          by
          > discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country
          of
          > my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not
          officially.
          >
          > Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph
          >
          > I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
          > and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.
          >
          > Mike Dolph
          >
          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
          > <gordocutter_1@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
          > it!
          > > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
          > > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
          > make
          > > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to
          make
          > > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose
          in a
          > > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all
          the
          > > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info
          that
          > > you give came to be very handful for me.
          > > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I
          thinking
          > > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
          > think
          > > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
          > > resistance.
          > > Thanks .
          > >
          > > Adaucto.
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list
          and I
          > > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and
          framing
          > > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
          > least
          > > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
          > > bending
          > > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
          > > bending. I
          > > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
          > > suspect
          > > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer
          it
          > > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
          > experience
          > > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better
          off
          > > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
          > > master
          > > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
          > > crowd.
          > > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
          > > way; he
          > > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
          > for
          > > an
          > > > amateur.
          > > >
          > > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
          > > differences in
          > > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term
          escapes
          > > me
          > > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
          > > builders
          > > > in the 1920's, it's
          > > >
          > > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by
          Richard
          > M.
          > > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
          > (set
          > > to
          > > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and
          some
          > of
          > > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
          > > here;
          > > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this
          will
          > > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat
          Building" by
          > > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations
          on
          > > that
          > > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
          > > >
          > > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone
          details
          > > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
          > > >
          > > > Mike Dolph
          > > >
          > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
          > <gordocutter_1@>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
          > > versus
          > > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages
          of
          > > each.
          > > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified
          for
          > > planking
          > > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in
          this
          > > decade
          > > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
          > > probably be
          > > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never
          now.
          > > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
          > > Brazilian
          > > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
          but
          > > if I
          > > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different
          from
          > > those
          > > > > used for laminated frames.
          > > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • gordocutter_1
          Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don t understand why you can not.
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
            Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve
            some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don't
            understand why you can not. I'm surprised that you have a Brazilian
            kid, when you get any vacations here let me know maybe we can do
            some "live" chat about boats. I'm glad too that I found a way for
            the construction. As for the wood, eucalyptus is not the final
            decision is just a study option, I'm open for others, but I'm still
            searching, I already talk with the suppliers of the lyptus in order
            to get some samples for doing some experiments with, lets see what's
            going to be…
            Cheers

            Adaucto



            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was
            as
            > long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My
            former
            > marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
            > there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after
            so
            > many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
            > income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
            > being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be
            more
            > than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
            > frames and structural members John Atkins specified.
            >
            > I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
            > some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but
            there
            > are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
            > different woods.
            >
            > I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch
            by
            > discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country
            of
            > my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not
            officially.
            >
            > Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph
            >
            > I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
            > and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.
            >
            > Mike Dolph
            >
            > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
            > <gordocutter_1@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
            > it!
            > > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
            > > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
            > make
            > > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to
            make
            > > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose
            in a
            > > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all
            the
            > > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info
            that
            > > you give came to be very handful for me.
            > > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I
            thinking
            > > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
            > think
            > > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
            > > resistance.
            > > Thanks .
            > >
            > > Adaucto.
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list
            and I
            > > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and
            framing
            > > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
            > least
            > > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
            > > bending
            > > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
            > > bending. I
            > > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
            > > suspect
            > > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer
            it
            > > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
            > experience
            > > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better
            off
            > > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
            > > master
            > > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
            > > crowd.
            > > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
            > > way; he
            > > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
            > for
            > > an
            > > > amateur.
            > > >
            > > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
            > > differences in
            > > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term
            escapes
            > > me
            > > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
            > > builders
            > > > in the 1920's, it's
            > > >
            > > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by
            Richard
            > M.
            > > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
            > (set
            > > to
            > > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and
            some
            > of
            > > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
            > > here;
            > > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this
            will
            > > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat
            Building" by
            > > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations
            on
            > > that
            > > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
            > > >
            > > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone
            details
            > > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
            > > >
            > > > Mike Dolph
            > > >
            > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
            > <gordocutter_1@>
            > > > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
            > > versus
            > > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages
            of
            > > each.
            > > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified
            for
            > > planking
            > > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in
            this
            > > decade
            > > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
            > > probably be
            > > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never
            now.
            > > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
            > > Brazilian
            > > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
            but
            > > if I
            > > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different
            from
            > > those
            > > > > used for laminated frames.
            > > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • gordocutter_1
            Hi Don! I just read the answer, of the friend that told me about the tip, and you re right about the way to go, the layers are intercalated one of wood one of
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
              Hi Don! I just read the answer, of the friend that told me about the
              tip, and you're right about the way to go, the layers are
              intercalated one of wood one of fiber but it can be less of fiber
              than wood for example 4 layers of wood (would be like 5 mm for a
              7/8" frame ) and two or three of fiber, the final appearance would
              be like a thicker glue between the layers of wood, I think this
              could look nice for a bright work. He didn't told me the weight of
              the fiber just what kind of it, unidirectional fiber, here in Brazil
              we buying this kind of fiber in "roles" (don't now if is the right
              word), I'm getting some samples of eucalyptus in order to do some
              test with the wood for frames and I will use this method, when I do
              will show you some photos of the result, hope I helped!

              Adaucto


              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Aduacto,
              >
              > I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the
              wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to
              my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between
              each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final
              laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look
              like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another
              question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the
              wood layers?
              >
              > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
              gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
              draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
              try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
              fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
              correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required
              everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets
              format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did
              make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that.
              Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast
              that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has
              all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-
              stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms
              up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.
              >
              > As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems
              to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the
              strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line
              them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold
              patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used
              to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that
              would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to
              incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that
              is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of
              the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to
              the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands
              start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard
              to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and
              spokeshaves sharp.
              >
              > Anyway that's the plan
              > Don Douglas
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • John Kohnen
              Laminated frames will work fine. They ll be stronger than steam-bent frames, but a lot more work. Just about every older bent-frame boat has had some broken
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 10, 2008
                Laminated frames will work fine. They'll be stronger than steam-bent
                frames, but a lot more work. Just about every older bent-frame boat has
                had some broken ribs... Steam-bent frames are quick and easy to install
                though, and the boats so built last well enough.

                Be sure to use wood that takes gluing well. A few weeks ago I saw a
                (formerly) laminated stem that came out of a boat built in the 1980s,
                IIRC. NONE of the laminations were still glued together! The wood was oak;
                I don't know what the glue was, but I've heard much about epoxy and oak
                not getting along. If you use planking fasteners that penetrate all the
                laminations -- rivets would be best -- you'll have some insurance in case
                the adhesive fails.

                Don't get to worked up about spring back. You should set the boat up so
                that the frames are held in their intended curve when installed. They'll
                spring back a little when they come off the mold, but when you install
                them on the boat you can bend them back into shape and hold them with
                battens, cross spalls, etc. Steam-bent frames spring back too, but it
                doesn't matter because held to the proper shape when installed. Forget the
                fiberglass between laminations, you won't need it.

                On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:25:54 -0700, Adaucto wrote:

                > ...
                > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                > going to stick with the laminated one,
                > ...
                > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I thinking
                > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you think
                > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                > resistance.

                --
                John <jkohnen@...>
                The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
                alarmed -- and hence clamorous to be led to safety -- by
                menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them
                imaginary. <H. L. Mencken>
              • John Kohnen
                I think that s what I d do. I d probably set up the molds and ribbands so the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the frames should be,
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 10, 2008
                  I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and ribbands so
                  the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the frames
                  should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands. Twisting
                  the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up after the
                  glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.

                  On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:

                  > ...
                  > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                  > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?

                  --
                  John <jkohnen@...>
                  Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                  dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                  describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                  described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                • gordocutter_1
                  Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that s the way I ll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel them later if I would
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 12, 2008
                    Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that's the way
                    I'll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel
                    them later if I would laminated before put them in their places.
                    Doing directly on the ribbands I can get the same result if I did
                    with the steam bent frame.

                    Adaucto Mello


                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and
                    ribbands so
                    > the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the
                    frames
                    > should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands.
                    Twisting
                    > the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up
                    after the
                    > glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.
                    >
                    > On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:
                    >
                    > > ...
                    > > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                    > > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?
                    >
                    > --
                    > John <jkohnen@...>
                    > Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                    > dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                    > describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                    > described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                    >
                  • Tom Hesselink
                    Let me suggest another method for laminating frames. You can take it for what you will. Get a plastic staple gun from www.raptornails.com (the staples are
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 12, 2008
                      Let me suggest another method for laminating frames. You can take it
                      for what you will.

                      Get a plastic staple gun from www.raptornails.com (the staples are
                      plastic, not the gun) and staple the laminates directly to the inside
                      of the rib bands. Of course you had better heavily wax the rib bands
                      first but then you will be able to just grind off the protruding
                      staples after the epoxy has set and the rib bands removed. The ribs
                      can then be faired with regular block planes, spokeshaves and small
                      5" grinders (as they most assuredly will need some fairing). You can
                      switch back to stainless staples on the inner laminates once the
                      staples are not protuding. I would not incorporate fiberglass into
                      the laminations as the whole job will be plenty messy already. The
                      glass would add some strength but I don't think you need any more
                      strength especially if you cold mold or strip plank the hull. By
                      using this method you can also easily shift each laminate sideways a
                      bit to help keep the beveled frames inline and then grind off the
                      steps in the laminates later. It will be much easier if you cut
                      beveled laminates for the frames with steep bevels. For a 7/8" thick
                      frame I would suggest using about 5 laminates to prevent spring
                      back.

                      The idea of lofting stations so that frames can be laminated outside
                      of the rib bands will make things very difficult as now you have to
                      move the stations in about 2 3/8" (figuring 7/8" for the frames and
                      1.5" for the rib bands) from what has been already dictated in the
                      plans—that is a time consuming and complicated operation. Like I
                      said—take it for what you want. This is going to be a challenging
                      job no matter how it is done—patience will be a virtue. Good luck,
                      Tom




                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                      <gordocutter_1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that's the
                      way
                      > I'll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel
                      > them later if I would laminated before put them in their places.
                      > Doing directly on the ribbands I can get the same result if I did
                      > with the steam bent frame.
                      >
                      > Adaucto Mello
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and
                      > ribbands so
                      > > the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of
                      the
                      > frames
                      > > should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands.
                      > Twisting
                      > > the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up
                      > after the
                      > > glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.
                      > >
                      > > On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > ...
                      > > > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                      > > > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?
                      > >
                      > > --
                      > > John <jkohnen@>
                      > > Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                      > > dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                      > > describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                      > > described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                      > >
                      >
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