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Re: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

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  • Don Douglas
    Aduacto, I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to my list of ideas
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 3, 2008
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      Aduacto,

      I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the wood layers?

      Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that. Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.

      As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and spokeshaves sharp.

      Anyway that's the plan
      Don Douglas




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mike Dolph
      Douglas, I don t want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this in mind. I
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 4, 2008
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        Douglas,

        I don't want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built
        a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this
        in mind.

        I don't remember having read of a strict order for considering lines
        in lofting corrections but on giving it some thought I would try this
        and call it my best effort. I'd fair all the initial lines such as
        sheer, keel, profile and plan lines the architect would have done
        first. Then an architect would draw in three stations of
        approximately the displacement he wants but I would give emphasis to
        diagonals in lofting since he would have gone through several
        iterations of that to get his drawings and what I mainly want to
        achieve is a smooth, surface for planking and waterflow. Once
        diagonals were fair, I'd work the changes into the stations trying to
        leave the sheer and keel alone and, if at all possible, the rabbet as
        drawn. This seems to me to make the boat fair and doable with the
        least necessary changes to the architects intent.

        This describes more changes than you would probably actually have to
        decide on. I would certainly like to hear yours or anyone else's
        priorities in lofting as well. In the end you have to decide, since
        the Atkin's aren't there it's up to you to "skin this cat".

        Mike Dolph

        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...> wrote:
        >
        > Aduacto,
        >

        > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
        gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
        draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
        try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
        fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
        correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything
        to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is
        very different from how it was done 75 years ago.
        > Don Douglas
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Tim & Kris
        A few comments: 1.) A properly laminated frame is about 3/4 again stronger than a similarly dimensioned steam bent frame of the same material. 2.) Watch what
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 4, 2008
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          A few comments:

          1.) A properly laminated frame is about 3/4 again stronger than a
          similarly dimensioned steam bent frame of the same material.

          2.) Watch what you use; both adhesives and wood. High oil content wood
          or wood with tyloses (i.e. teak, ipe, or white oak) don't laminate
          correctly unless it's done in a very controlled manner, and even then
          it's up for debate. Your adhesive choices are pretty much epoxy,
          resourcinal, or Polyurethane (non-foaming).

          3.) Lofting a boat where the table of offsets was derived from the
          drawings is a bit of a best fit exercise. Use good battens and work
          for the fairest line and you should be okay.

          4.) If your planning on cold molding, the frames are pretty much there
          for show when it's all said and done. I don't think this is
          necessarily a bad thing as having a hull be too strong is okay with
          me, and the interior room lost is minimal.

          Tim



          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...> wrote:
          >
          > Douglas,
          >
          > I don't want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built
          > a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this
          > in mind.
          >
          > I don't remember having read of a strict order for considering lines
          > in lofting corrections but on giving it some thought I would try this
          > and call it my best effort. I'd fair all the initial lines such as
          > sheer, keel, profile and plan lines the architect would have done
          > first. Then an architect would draw in three stations of
          > approximately the displacement he wants but I would give emphasis to
          > diagonals in lofting since he would have gone through several
          > iterations of that to get his drawings and what I mainly want to
          > achieve is a smooth, surface for planking and waterflow. Once
          > diagonals were fair, I'd work the changes into the stations trying to
          > leave the sheer and keel alone and, if at all possible, the rabbet as
          > drawn. This seems to me to make the boat fair and doable with the
          > least necessary changes to the architects intent.
          >
          > This describes more changes than you would probably actually have to
          > decide on. I would certainly like to hear yours or anyone else's
          > priorities in lofting as well. In the end you have to decide, since
          > the Atkin's aren't there it's up to you to "skin this cat".
          >
          > Mike Dolph
          >
          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Aduacto,
          > >
          >
          > > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
          > gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
          > draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
          > try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
          > fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
          > correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything
          > to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is
          > very different from how it was done 75 years ago.
          > > Don Douglas
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
        • gordocutter_1
          Hi Douglas! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems, and I was trying to contact the guy ho told me about the laminated
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
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            Hi Douglas! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to
            solve some problems, and I was trying to contact the guy ho told me
            about the laminated technique, and ask him about your questions,
            still didn't get a answer. Sadly I can not answer your questions
            about the weight of the cloth, or how it would look like the ended
            product, but I do have some clues about it:
            The frames are thin so, I suspect that they don't need too much
            strength to hold the spring back, I was thinking that one layer of
            fiberglass between four layers of wood can be enough to hold them, I
            think that the strength of the epoxi combine with the one layer of
            fiber can do the job properly, and if its stay between two layers
            of wood it would not be very visualize in the final product .
            For example four layers off wood with 3/16" and one layer between
            them of 1/8" fiberglass. That is how I think would work. If you put
            a layer of fiber between each layer of wood you would have to reduce
            the thickness of the wood in order to get the same dimensions of the
            frame (7/8") and the fiberglass would be more visualize if you do
            that way. When I get the answer of the guy that told me the tip, I
            keep you informed.

            Cheers
            Adaucto


            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Aduacto,
            >
            > I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the
            wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to
            my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between
            each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final
            laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look
            like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another
            question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the
            wood layers?
            >
            > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
            gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
            draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
            try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
            fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
            correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required
            everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets
            format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did
            make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that.
            Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast
            that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has
            all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-
            stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms
            up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.
            >
            > As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems
            to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the
            strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line
            them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold
            patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used
            to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that
            would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to
            incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that
            is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of
            the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to
            the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands
            start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard
            to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and
            spokeshaves sharp.
            >
            > Anyway that's the plan
            > Don Douglas
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • gordocutter_1
            Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don t understand why you can not.
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
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              Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve
              some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don't
              understand why you can not. I'm surprised that you have a Brazilian
              kid, when you get any vacations here let me know; maybe we can do
              some "live" chat about boats. I'm glad too that I found a way for
              the construction. As for the wood, eucalyptus is not the final
              decision is just a study option, I'm open for others, but I'm still
              searching, I already talk with the suppliers of the lyptus in order
              to get some samples for doing some experiments with, lets see what's
              going to be…
              Cheers

              Adaucto



              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was
              as
              > long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My
              former
              > marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
              > there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after
              so
              > many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
              > income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
              > being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be
              more
              > than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
              > frames and structural members John Atkins specified.
              >
              > I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
              > some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but
              there
              > are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
              > different woods.
              >
              > I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch
              by
              > discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country
              of
              > my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not
              officially.
              >
              > Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph
              >
              > I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
              > and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.
              >
              > Mike Dolph
              >
              > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
              > <gordocutter_1@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
              > it!
              > > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
              > > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
              > make
              > > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to
              make
              > > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose
              in a
              > > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all
              the
              > > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info
              that
              > > you give came to be very handful for me.
              > > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I
              thinking
              > > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
              > think
              > > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
              > > resistance.
              > > Thanks .
              > >
              > > Adaucto.
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list
              and I
              > > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and
              framing
              > > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
              > least
              > > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
              > > bending
              > > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
              > > bending. I
              > > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
              > > suspect
              > > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer
              it
              > > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
              > experience
              > > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better
              off
              > > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
              > > master
              > > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
              > > crowd.
              > > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
              > > way; he
              > > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
              > for
              > > an
              > > > amateur.
              > > >
              > > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
              > > differences in
              > > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term
              escapes
              > > me
              > > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
              > > builders
              > > > in the 1920's, it's
              > > >
              > > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by
              Richard
              > M.
              > > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
              > (set
              > > to
              > > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and
              some
              > of
              > > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
              > > here;
              > > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this
              will
              > > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat
              Building" by
              > > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations
              on
              > > that
              > > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
              > > >
              > > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone
              details
              > > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
              > > >
              > > > Mike Dolph
              > > >
              > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
              > <gordocutter_1@>
              > > > wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
              > > versus
              > > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages
              of
              > > each.
              > > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified
              for
              > > planking
              > > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in
              this
              > > decade
              > > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
              > > probably be
              > > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never
              now.
              > > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
              > > Brazilian
              > > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
              but
              > > if I
              > > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different
              from
              > > those
              > > > > used for laminated frames.
              > > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • gordocutter_1
              Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don t understand why you can not.
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve
                some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don't
                understand why you can not. I'm surprised that you have a Brazilian
                kid, when you get any vacations here let me know maybe we can do
                some "live" chat about boats. I'm glad too that I found a way for
                the construction. As for the wood, eucalyptus is not the final
                decision is just a study option, I'm open for others, but I'm still
                searching, I already talk with the suppliers of the lyptus in order
                to get some samples for doing some experiments with, lets see what's
                going to be…
                Cheers

                Adaucto



                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was
                as
                > long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My
                former
                > marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
                > there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after
                so
                > many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
                > income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
                > being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be
                more
                > than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
                > frames and structural members John Atkins specified.
                >
                > I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
                > some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but
                there
                > are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
                > different woods.
                >
                > I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch
                by
                > discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country
                of
                > my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not
                officially.
                >
                > Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph
                >
                > I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
                > and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.
                >
                > Mike Dolph
                >
                > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                > <gordocutter_1@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
                > it!
                > > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                > > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
                > make
                > > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to
                make
                > > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose
                in a
                > > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all
                the
                > > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info
                that
                > > you give came to be very handful for me.
                > > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I
                thinking
                > > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
                > think
                > > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                > > resistance.
                > > Thanks .
                > >
                > > Adaucto.
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list
                and I
                > > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and
                framing
                > > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
                > least
                > > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                > > bending
                > > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                > > bending. I
                > > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                > > suspect
                > > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer
                it
                > > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
                > experience
                > > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better
                off
                > > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                > > master
                > > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                > > crowd.
                > > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                > > way; he
                > > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
                > for
                > > an
                > > > amateur.
                > > >
                > > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                > > differences in
                > > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term
                escapes
                > > me
                > > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                > > builders
                > > > in the 1920's, it's
                > > >
                > > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by
                Richard
                > M.
                > > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
                > (set
                > > to
                > > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and
                some
                > of
                > > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                > > here;
                > > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this
                will
                > > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat
                Building" by
                > > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations
                on
                > > that
                > > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                > > >
                > > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone
                details
                > > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                > > >
                > > > Mike Dolph
                > > >
                > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                > <gordocutter_1@>
                > > > wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                > > versus
                > > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages
                of
                > > each.
                > > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified
                for
                > > planking
                > > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in
                this
                > > decade
                > > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                > > probably be
                > > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never
                now.
                > > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                > > Brazilian
                > > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
                but
                > > if I
                > > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different
                from
                > > those
                > > > > used for laminated frames.
                > > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • gordocutter_1
                Hi Don! I just read the answer, of the friend that told me about the tip, and you re right about the way to go, the layers are intercalated one of wood one of
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Don! I just read the answer, of the friend that told me about the
                  tip, and you're right about the way to go, the layers are
                  intercalated one of wood one of fiber but it can be less of fiber
                  than wood for example 4 layers of wood (would be like 5 mm for a
                  7/8" frame ) and two or three of fiber, the final appearance would
                  be like a thicker glue between the layers of wood, I think this
                  could look nice for a bright work. He didn't told me the weight of
                  the fiber just what kind of it, unidirectional fiber, here in Brazil
                  we buying this kind of fiber in "roles" (don't now if is the right
                  word), I'm getting some samples of eucalyptus in order to do some
                  test with the wood for frames and I will use this method, when I do
                  will show you some photos of the result, hope I helped!

                  Adaucto


                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Aduacto,
                  >
                  > I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the
                  wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to
                  my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between
                  each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final
                  laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look
                  like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another
                  question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the
                  wood layers?
                  >
                  > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                  gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                  draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                  try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                  fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                  correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required
                  everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets
                  format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did
                  make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that.
                  Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast
                  that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has
                  all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-
                  stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms
                  up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.
                  >
                  > As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems
                  to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the
                  strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line
                  them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold
                  patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used
                  to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that
                  would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to
                  incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that
                  is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of
                  the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to
                  the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands
                  start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard
                  to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and
                  spokeshaves sharp.
                  >
                  > Anyway that's the plan
                  > Don Douglas
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • John Kohnen
                  Laminated frames will work fine. They ll be stronger than steam-bent frames, but a lot more work. Just about every older bent-frame boat has had some broken
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 10, 2008
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                    Laminated frames will work fine. They'll be stronger than steam-bent
                    frames, but a lot more work. Just about every older bent-frame boat has
                    had some broken ribs... Steam-bent frames are quick and easy to install
                    though, and the boats so built last well enough.

                    Be sure to use wood that takes gluing well. A few weeks ago I saw a
                    (formerly) laminated stem that came out of a boat built in the 1980s,
                    IIRC. NONE of the laminations were still glued together! The wood was oak;
                    I don't know what the glue was, but I've heard much about epoxy and oak
                    not getting along. If you use planking fasteners that penetrate all the
                    laminations -- rivets would be best -- you'll have some insurance in case
                    the adhesive fails.

                    Don't get to worked up about spring back. You should set the boat up so
                    that the frames are held in their intended curve when installed. They'll
                    spring back a little when they come off the mold, but when you install
                    them on the boat you can bend them back into shape and hold them with
                    battens, cross spalls, etc. Steam-bent frames spring back too, but it
                    doesn't matter because held to the proper shape when installed. Forget the
                    fiberglass between laminations, you won't need it.

                    On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:25:54 -0700, Adaucto wrote:

                    > ...
                    > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                    > going to stick with the laminated one,
                    > ...
                    > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I thinking
                    > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you think
                    > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                    > resistance.

                    --
                    John <jkohnen@...>
                    The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
                    alarmed -- and hence clamorous to be led to safety -- by
                    menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them
                    imaginary. <H. L. Mencken>
                  • John Kohnen
                    I think that s what I d do. I d probably set up the molds and ribbands so the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the frames should be,
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 10, 2008
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                      I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and ribbands so
                      the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the frames
                      should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands. Twisting
                      the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up after the
                      glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.

                      On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:

                      > ...
                      > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                      > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?

                      --
                      John <jkohnen@...>
                      Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                      dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                      describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                      described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                    • gordocutter_1
                      Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that s the way I ll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel them later if I would
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 12, 2008
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                        Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that's the way
                        I'll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel
                        them later if I would laminated before put them in their places.
                        Doing directly on the ribbands I can get the same result if I did
                        with the steam bent frame.

                        Adaucto Mello


                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and
                        ribbands so
                        > the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the
                        frames
                        > should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands.
                        Twisting
                        > the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up
                        after the
                        > glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.
                        >
                        > On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:
                        >
                        > > ...
                        > > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                        > > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?
                        >
                        > --
                        > John <jkohnen@...>
                        > Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                        > dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                        > describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                        > described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                        >
                      • Tom Hesselink
                        Let me suggest another method for laminating frames. You can take it for what you will. Get a plastic staple gun from www.raptornails.com (the staples are
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 12, 2008
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                          Let me suggest another method for laminating frames. You can take it
                          for what you will.

                          Get a plastic staple gun from www.raptornails.com (the staples are
                          plastic, not the gun) and staple the laminates directly to the inside
                          of the rib bands. Of course you had better heavily wax the rib bands
                          first but then you will be able to just grind off the protruding
                          staples after the epoxy has set and the rib bands removed. The ribs
                          can then be faired with regular block planes, spokeshaves and small
                          5" grinders (as they most assuredly will need some fairing). You can
                          switch back to stainless staples on the inner laminates once the
                          staples are not protuding. I would not incorporate fiberglass into
                          the laminations as the whole job will be plenty messy already. The
                          glass would add some strength but I don't think you need any more
                          strength especially if you cold mold or strip plank the hull. By
                          using this method you can also easily shift each laminate sideways a
                          bit to help keep the beveled frames inline and then grind off the
                          steps in the laminates later. It will be much easier if you cut
                          beveled laminates for the frames with steep bevels. For a 7/8" thick
                          frame I would suggest using about 5 laminates to prevent spring
                          back.

                          The idea of lofting stations so that frames can be laminated outside
                          of the rib bands will make things very difficult as now you have to
                          move the stations in about 2 3/8" (figuring 7/8" for the frames and
                          1.5" for the rib bands) from what has been already dictated in the
                          plans—that is a time consuming and complicated operation. Like I
                          said—take it for what you want. This is going to be a challenging
                          job no matter how it is done—patience will be a virtue. Good luck,
                          Tom




                          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                          <gordocutter_1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that's the
                          way
                          > I'll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel
                          > them later if I would laminated before put them in their places.
                          > Doing directly on the ribbands I can get the same result if I did
                          > with the steam bent frame.
                          >
                          > Adaucto Mello
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and
                          > ribbands so
                          > > the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of
                          the
                          > frames
                          > > should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands.
                          > Twisting
                          > > the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up
                          > after the
                          > > glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.
                          > >
                          > > On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > ...
                          > > > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                          > > > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > John <jkohnen@>
                          > > Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                          > > dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                          > > describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                          > > described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                          > >
                          >
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