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Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

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  • gordocutter_1
    Hi George ! I also made the same google search for find some site of the builder but all that I found was that address, didn t help me very much cause it
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
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      Hi George ! I also made the same google search for find some site of
      the builder but all that I found was that address, didn't help me
      very much cause it doesn't have even a phone number, even if it was
      he is in England so… the phone bill would be astronomic.
      But I was very interest by the book that you wrote about, and I'm
      about to search it now, thanks very much.

      Adaucto


      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, George C <glcost2@...> wrote:
      >
      > The Robelia was built by a professional in the UK. He used 1/2"
      strip planking with one 3mm veneer lamination and 2 layers of glass.
      Not sure on the size of frames, but the photos in the article do
      give a relative idea. Maybe Gordocutter can contact the builder to
      get more details. I did a quick google search and found this address.
      >
      > EUAN SEEL MARINE SURVEYS LIMITED
      > 1 Alton Green, Lower Holbrook, Ipswich,
      > Suffolk United Kingdom
      >
      > If Gordocutter is interested in cold-molding, there is a book by
      Reuel Parker called The New Cold-Molded Boatbuilding from lofting to
      launch. There is a chapter on choosing a design and adapting a
      design. It might help in making some decisions. Here's a link to it:
      >
      >
      > http://tinyurl.com/344ffm
      >
      > George
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: Mike Dolph <johndolph@...>
      > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 5:01:30 PM
      > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames
      >
      > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian
      Yahoo list and I
      > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
      > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at least
      > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
      bending
      > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
      bending. I
      > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
      suspect
      > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
      > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning experience
      > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
      > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
      master
      > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
      crowd.
      > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
      way; he
      > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge for
      an
      > amateur.
      >
      > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
      differences in
      > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes
      me
      > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
      builders
      > in the 1920's, it's
      >
      > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard M.
      > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search (set
      to
      > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some of
      > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
      here;
      > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
      > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
      > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on
      that
      > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
      >
      > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
      > that would work for Maid of Endor?
      >
      > Mike Dolph
      >
      > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1" <gordocutter_
      1@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
      versus
      > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
      each.
      > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
      planking
      > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
      decade
      > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
      probably be
      > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
      > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
      Brazilian
      > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
      if I
      > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
      those
      > > used for laminated frames.
      > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      _____________________________________________________________________
      _______________
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      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • gordocutter_1
      Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very interested, I m now thinking in building with laminated frames. ... page ... frames ... of ... and ... versus ...
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
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        Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very interested, I'm now
        thinking in building with laminated frames.
        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "glcost2" <glcost2@...> wrote:
        >
        > Have you read the 2 articles at the bottom of the Maid of Endor
        page
        > on Atkinboatplans.com. Both are on Robella which has laminated
        frames
        > and cold-molded hull. The articles don't mention the pros or cons
        of
        > laminated frames, but are very good reading on a non-traditional
        and
        > successful build.
        >
        > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1" <gordocutter_1@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
        versus
        > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
        each.
        > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
        planking
        > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
        decade
        > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
        probably be
        > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
        > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
        Brazilian
        > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
        if I
        > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
        those
        > > used for laminated frames.
        > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
        > >
        >
      • George C
        Gordocutter, The tinyurl link below will take you to the book. There are many pages that you can read. http://tinyurl.com/344ffm George ... From: gordocutter_1
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Gordocutter,

          The tinyurl link below will take you to the book. There are many pages that you can read.
          http://tinyurl.com/344ffm

          George


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: gordocutter_1 <gordocutter_1@...>
          To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:01:57 PM
          Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

          Hi George ! I also made the same google search for find some site of
          the builder but all that I found was that address, didn't help me
          very much cause it doesn't have even a phone number, even if it was
          he is in England so� the phone bill would be astronomic.
          But I was very interest by the book that you wrote about, and I'm
          about to search it now, thanks very much.

          Adaucto

          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, George C <glcost2@... > wrote:
          >
          > The Robelia was built by a professional in the UK. He used 1/2"
          strip planking with one 3mm veneer lamination and 2 layers of glass.
          Not sure on the size of frames, but the photos in the article do
          give a relative idea. Maybe Gordocutter can contact the builder to
          get more details. I did a quick google search and found this address.
          >
          > EUAN SEEL MARINE SURVEYS LIMITED
          > 1 Alton Green, Lower Holbrook, Ipswich,
          > Suffolk United Kingdom
          >
          > If Gordocutter is interested in cold-molding, there is a book by
          Reuel Parker called The New Cold-Molded Boatbuilding from lofting to
          launch. There is a chapter on choosing a design and adapting a
          design. It might help in making some decisions. Here's a link to it:
          >
          >
          > http://tinyurl. com/344ffm
          >
          > George
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: Mike Dolph <johndolph@. ..>
          > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com
          > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 5:01:30 PM
          > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames
          >
          > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian
          Yahoo list and I
          > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
          > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at least
          > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
          bending
          > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
          bending. I
          > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
          suspect
          > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
          > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning experience
          > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
          > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
          master
          > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
          crowd.
          > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
          way; he
          > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge for
          an
          > amateur.
          >
          > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
          differences in
          > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes
          me
          > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
          builders
          > in the 1920's, it's
          >
          > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard M.
          > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search (set
          to
          > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some of
          > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
          here;
          > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
          > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
          > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on
          that
          > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
          >
          > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
          > that would work for Maid of Endor?
          >
          > Mike Dolph
          >
          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1" <gordocutter_
          1@...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
          versus
          > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
          each.
          > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
          planking
          > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
          decade
          > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
          probably be
          > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
          > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
          Brazilian
          > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
          if I
          > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
          those
          > > used for laminated frames.
          > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • George C
          Gordocutter, At the bottom the article (don t remember which one), there is an email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him with
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Gordocutter,

            At the bottom the article (don't remember which one), there is an email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him with questions.

            George


            ----- Original Message ----
            From: gordocutter_1 <gordocutter_1@...>
            To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:07:24 PM
            Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

            Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very interested, I'm now
            thinking in building with laminated frames.
            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "glcost2" <glcost2@... > wrote:
            >
            > Have you read the 2 articles at the bottom of the Maid of Endor
            page
            > on Atkinboatplans. com. Both are on Robella which has laminated
            frames
            > and cold-molded hull. The articles don't mention the pros or cons
            of
            > laminated frames, but are very good reading on a non-traditional
            and
            > successful build.
            >
            > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1" <gordocutter_ 1@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
            versus
            > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
            each.
            > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
            planking
            > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
            decade
            > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
            probably be
            > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
            > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
            Brazilian
            > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
            if I
            > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
            those
            > > used for laminated frames.
            > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
            > >
            >




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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • gordocutter_1
            There is? I didn t notice! Will check right now, don t now how this pass by me, thanks! ... email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 3, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              There is? I didn't notice! Will check right now, don't now how this
              pass by me, thanks!

              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, George C <glcost2@...> wrote:
              >
              > Gordocutter,
              >
              > At the bottom the article (don't remember which one), there is an
              email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him
              with questions.
              >
              > George
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message ----
              > From: gordocutter_1 <gordocutter_1@...>
              > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:07:24 PM
              > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames
              >
              > Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very
              interested, I'm now
              > thinking in building with laminated frames.
              > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "glcost2" <glcost2@ > wrote:
              > >
              > > Have you read the 2 articles at the bottom of the Maid of Endor
              > page
              > > on Atkinboatplans. com. Both are on Robella which has laminated
              > frames
              > > and cold-molded hull. The articles don't mention the pros or
              cons
              > of
              > > laminated frames, but are very good reading on a non-traditional
              > and
              > > successful build.
              > >
              > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1"
              <gordocutter_ 1@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
              > versus
              > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
              > each.
              > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
              > planking
              > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
              > decade
              > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
              > probably be
              > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
              > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
              > Brazilian
              > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
              but
              > if I
              > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
              > those
              > > > used for laminated frames.
              > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
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              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Mike Dolph
              Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was as long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My former marriage to a
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 3, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was as
                long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My former
                marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
                there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after so
                many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
                income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
                being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be more
                than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
                frames and structural members John Atkins specified.

                I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
                some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but there
                are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
                different woods.

                I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch by
                discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country of
                my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not officially.

                Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph

                I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
                and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.

                Mike Dolph

                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                <gordocutter_1@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
                it!
                > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
                make
                > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to make
                > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose in a
                > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all the
                > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info that
                > you give came to be very handful for me.
                > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I thinking
                > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
                think
                > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                > resistance.
                > Thanks .
                >
                > Adaucto.
                >
                >
                > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list and I
                > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
                > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
                least
                > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                > bending
                > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                > bending. I
                > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                > suspect
                > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
                > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
                experience
                > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
                > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                > master
                > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                > crowd.
                > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                > way; he
                > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
                for
                > an
                > > amateur.
                > >
                > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                > differences in
                > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes
                > me
                > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                > builders
                > > in the 1920's, it's
                > >
                > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard
                M.
                > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
                (set
                > to
                > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some
                of
                > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                > here;
                > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
                > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
                > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on
                > that
                > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                > >
                > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
                > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                > >
                > > Mike Dolph
                > >
                > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                <gordocutter_1@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                > versus
                > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                > each.
                > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                > planking
                > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                > decade
                > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                > probably be
                > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                > Brazilian
                > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                > if I
                > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                > those
                > > > used for laminated frames.
                > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Don Douglas
                Aduacto, I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to my list of ideas
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 3, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Aduacto,

                  I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the wood layers?

                  Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that. Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.

                  As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and spokeshaves sharp.

                  Anyway that's the plan
                  Don Douglas




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mike Dolph
                  Douglas, I don t want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this in mind. I
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 4, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Douglas,

                    I don't want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built
                    a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this
                    in mind.

                    I don't remember having read of a strict order for considering lines
                    in lofting corrections but on giving it some thought I would try this
                    and call it my best effort. I'd fair all the initial lines such as
                    sheer, keel, profile and plan lines the architect would have done
                    first. Then an architect would draw in three stations of
                    approximately the displacement he wants but I would give emphasis to
                    diagonals in lofting since he would have gone through several
                    iterations of that to get his drawings and what I mainly want to
                    achieve is a smooth, surface for planking and waterflow. Once
                    diagonals were fair, I'd work the changes into the stations trying to
                    leave the sheer and keel alone and, if at all possible, the rabbet as
                    drawn. This seems to me to make the boat fair and doable with the
                    least necessary changes to the architects intent.

                    This describes more changes than you would probably actually have to
                    decide on. I would certainly like to hear yours or anyone else's
                    priorities in lofting as well. In the end you have to decide, since
                    the Atkin's aren't there it's up to you to "skin this cat".

                    Mike Dolph

                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Aduacto,
                    >

                    > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                    gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                    draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                    try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                    fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                    correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything
                    to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is
                    very different from how it was done 75 years ago.
                    > Don Douglas
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Tim & Kris
                    A few comments: 1.) A properly laminated frame is about 3/4 again stronger than a similarly dimensioned steam bent frame of the same material. 2.) Watch what
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 4, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      A few comments:

                      1.) A properly laminated frame is about 3/4 again stronger than a
                      similarly dimensioned steam bent frame of the same material.

                      2.) Watch what you use; both adhesives and wood. High oil content wood
                      or wood with tyloses (i.e. teak, ipe, or white oak) don't laminate
                      correctly unless it's done in a very controlled manner, and even then
                      it's up for debate. Your adhesive choices are pretty much epoxy,
                      resourcinal, or Polyurethane (non-foaming).

                      3.) Lofting a boat where the table of offsets was derived from the
                      drawings is a bit of a best fit exercise. Use good battens and work
                      for the fairest line and you should be okay.

                      4.) If your planning on cold molding, the frames are pretty much there
                      for show when it's all said and done. I don't think this is
                      necessarily a bad thing as having a hull be too strong is okay with
                      me, and the interior room lost is minimal.

                      Tim



                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Douglas,
                      >
                      > I don't want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built
                      > a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this
                      > in mind.
                      >
                      > I don't remember having read of a strict order for considering lines
                      > in lofting corrections but on giving it some thought I would try this
                      > and call it my best effort. I'd fair all the initial lines such as
                      > sheer, keel, profile and plan lines the architect would have done
                      > first. Then an architect would draw in three stations of
                      > approximately the displacement he wants but I would give emphasis to
                      > diagonals in lofting since he would have gone through several
                      > iterations of that to get his drawings and what I mainly want to
                      > achieve is a smooth, surface for planking and waterflow. Once
                      > diagonals were fair, I'd work the changes into the stations trying to
                      > leave the sheer and keel alone and, if at all possible, the rabbet as
                      > drawn. This seems to me to make the boat fair and doable with the
                      > least necessary changes to the architects intent.
                      >
                      > This describes more changes than you would probably actually have to
                      > decide on. I would certainly like to hear yours or anyone else's
                      > priorities in lofting as well. In the end you have to decide, since
                      > the Atkin's aren't there it's up to you to "skin this cat".
                      >
                      > Mike Dolph
                      >
                      > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Aduacto,
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                      > gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                      > draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                      > try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                      > fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                      > correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything
                      > to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is
                      > very different from how it was done 75 years ago.
                      > > Don Douglas
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                    • gordocutter_1
                      Hi Douglas! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems, and I was trying to contact the guy ho told me about the laminated
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Douglas! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to
                        solve some problems, and I was trying to contact the guy ho told me
                        about the laminated technique, and ask him about your questions,
                        still didn't get a answer. Sadly I can not answer your questions
                        about the weight of the cloth, or how it would look like the ended
                        product, but I do have some clues about it:
                        The frames are thin so, I suspect that they don't need too much
                        strength to hold the spring back, I was thinking that one layer of
                        fiberglass between four layers of wood can be enough to hold them, I
                        think that the strength of the epoxi combine with the one layer of
                        fiber can do the job properly, and if its stay between two layers
                        of wood it would not be very visualize in the final product .
                        For example four layers off wood with 3/16" and one layer between
                        them of 1/8" fiberglass. That is how I think would work. If you put
                        a layer of fiber between each layer of wood you would have to reduce
                        the thickness of the wood in order to get the same dimensions of the
                        frame (7/8") and the fiberglass would be more visualize if you do
                        that way. When I get the answer of the guy that told me the tip, I
                        keep you informed.

                        Cheers
                        Adaucto


                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Aduacto,
                        >
                        > I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the
                        wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to
                        my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between
                        each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final
                        laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look
                        like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another
                        question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the
                        wood layers?
                        >
                        > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                        gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                        draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                        try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                        fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                        correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required
                        everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets
                        format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did
                        make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that.
                        Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast
                        that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has
                        all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-
                        stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms
                        up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.
                        >
                        > As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems
                        to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the
                        strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line
                        them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold
                        patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used
                        to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that
                        would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to
                        incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that
                        is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of
                        the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to
                        the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands
                        start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard
                        to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and
                        spokeshaves sharp.
                        >
                        > Anyway that's the plan
                        > Don Douglas
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • gordocutter_1
                        Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don t understand why you can not.
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve
                          some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don't
                          understand why you can not. I'm surprised that you have a Brazilian
                          kid, when you get any vacations here let me know; maybe we can do
                          some "live" chat about boats. I'm glad too that I found a way for
                          the construction. As for the wood, eucalyptus is not the final
                          decision is just a study option, I'm open for others, but I'm still
                          searching, I already talk with the suppliers of the lyptus in order
                          to get some samples for doing some experiments with, lets see what's
                          going to be…
                          Cheers

                          Adaucto



                          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was
                          as
                          > long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My
                          former
                          > marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
                          > there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after
                          so
                          > many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
                          > income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
                          > being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be
                          more
                          > than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
                          > frames and structural members John Atkins specified.
                          >
                          > I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
                          > some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but
                          there
                          > are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
                          > different woods.
                          >
                          > I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch
                          by
                          > discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country
                          of
                          > my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not
                          officially.
                          >
                          > Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph
                          >
                          > I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
                          > and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.
                          >
                          > Mike Dolph
                          >
                          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                          > <gordocutter_1@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
                          > it!
                          > > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                          > > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
                          > make
                          > > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to
                          make
                          > > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose
                          in a
                          > > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all
                          the
                          > > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info
                          that
                          > > you give came to be very handful for me.
                          > > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I
                          thinking
                          > > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
                          > think
                          > > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                          > > resistance.
                          > > Thanks .
                          > >
                          > > Adaucto.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list
                          and I
                          > > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and
                          framing
                          > > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
                          > least
                          > > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                          > > bending
                          > > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                          > > bending. I
                          > > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                          > > suspect
                          > > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer
                          it
                          > > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
                          > experience
                          > > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better
                          off
                          > > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                          > > master
                          > > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                          > > crowd.
                          > > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                          > > way; he
                          > > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
                          > for
                          > > an
                          > > > amateur.
                          > > >
                          > > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                          > > differences in
                          > > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term
                          escapes
                          > > me
                          > > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                          > > builders
                          > > > in the 1920's, it's
                          > > >
                          > > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by
                          Richard
                          > M.
                          > > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
                          > (set
                          > > to
                          > > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and
                          some
                          > of
                          > > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                          > > here;
                          > > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this
                          will
                          > > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat
                          Building" by
                          > > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations
                          on
                          > > that
                          > > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                          > > >
                          > > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone
                          details
                          > > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                          > > >
                          > > > Mike Dolph
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                          > <gordocutter_1@>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                          > > versus
                          > > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages
                          of
                          > > each.
                          > > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified
                          for
                          > > planking
                          > > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in
                          this
                          > > decade
                          > > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                          > > probably be
                          > > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never
                          now.
                          > > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                          > > Brazilian
                          > > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
                          but
                          > > if I
                          > > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different
                          from
                          > > those
                          > > > > used for laminated frames.
                          > > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • gordocutter_1
                          Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don t understand why you can not.
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve
                            some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don't
                            understand why you can not. I'm surprised that you have a Brazilian
                            kid, when you get any vacations here let me know maybe we can do
                            some "live" chat about boats. I'm glad too that I found a way for
                            the construction. As for the wood, eucalyptus is not the final
                            decision is just a study option, I'm open for others, but I'm still
                            searching, I already talk with the suppliers of the lyptus in order
                            to get some samples for doing some experiments with, lets see what's
                            going to be…
                            Cheers

                            Adaucto



                            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was
                            as
                            > long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My
                            former
                            > marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
                            > there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after
                            so
                            > many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
                            > income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
                            > being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be
                            more
                            > than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
                            > frames and structural members John Atkins specified.
                            >
                            > I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
                            > some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but
                            there
                            > are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
                            > different woods.
                            >
                            > I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch
                            by
                            > discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country
                            of
                            > my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not
                            officially.
                            >
                            > Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph
                            >
                            > I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
                            > and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.
                            >
                            > Mike Dolph
                            >
                            > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                            > <gordocutter_1@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
                            > it!
                            > > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                            > > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
                            > make
                            > > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to
                            make
                            > > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose
                            in a
                            > > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all
                            the
                            > > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info
                            that
                            > > you give came to be very handful for me.
                            > > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I
                            thinking
                            > > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
                            > think
                            > > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                            > > resistance.
                            > > Thanks .
                            > >
                            > > Adaucto.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list
                            and I
                            > > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and
                            framing
                            > > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
                            > least
                            > > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                            > > bending
                            > > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                            > > bending. I
                            > > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                            > > suspect
                            > > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer
                            it
                            > > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
                            > experience
                            > > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better
                            off
                            > > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                            > > master
                            > > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                            > > crowd.
                            > > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                            > > way; he
                            > > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
                            > for
                            > > an
                            > > > amateur.
                            > > >
                            > > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                            > > differences in
                            > > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term
                            escapes
                            > > me
                            > > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                            > > builders
                            > > > in the 1920's, it's
                            > > >
                            > > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by
                            Richard
                            > M.
                            > > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
                            > (set
                            > > to
                            > > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and
                            some
                            > of
                            > > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                            > > here;
                            > > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this
                            will
                            > > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat
                            Building" by
                            > > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations
                            on
                            > > that
                            > > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                            > > >
                            > > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone
                            details
                            > > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                            > > >
                            > > > Mike Dolph
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                            > <gordocutter_1@>
                            > > > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                            > > versus
                            > > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages
                            of
                            > > each.
                            > > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified
                            for
                            > > planking
                            > > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in
                            this
                            > > decade
                            > > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                            > > probably be
                            > > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never
                            now.
                            > > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                            > > Brazilian
                            > > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
                            but
                            > > if I
                            > > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different
                            from
                            > > those
                            > > > > used for laminated frames.
                            > > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • gordocutter_1
                            Hi Don! I just read the answer, of the friend that told me about the tip, and you re right about the way to go, the layers are intercalated one of wood one of
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Don! I just read the answer, of the friend that told me about the
                              tip, and you're right about the way to go, the layers are
                              intercalated one of wood one of fiber but it can be less of fiber
                              than wood for example 4 layers of wood (would be like 5 mm for a
                              7/8" frame ) and two or three of fiber, the final appearance would
                              be like a thicker glue between the layers of wood, I think this
                              could look nice for a bright work. He didn't told me the weight of
                              the fiber just what kind of it, unidirectional fiber, here in Brazil
                              we buying this kind of fiber in "roles" (don't now if is the right
                              word), I'm getting some samples of eucalyptus in order to do some
                              test with the wood for frames and I will use this method, when I do
                              will show you some photos of the result, hope I helped!

                              Adaucto


                              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Aduacto,
                              >
                              > I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the
                              wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to
                              my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between
                              each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final
                              laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look
                              like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another
                              question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the
                              wood layers?
                              >
                              > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                              gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                              draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                              try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                              fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                              correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required
                              everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets
                              format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did
                              make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that.
                              Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast
                              that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has
                              all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-
                              stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms
                              up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.
                              >
                              > As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems
                              to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the
                              strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line
                              them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold
                              patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used
                              to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that
                              would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to
                              incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that
                              is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of
                              the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to
                              the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands
                              start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard
                              to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and
                              spokeshaves sharp.
                              >
                              > Anyway that's the plan
                              > Don Douglas
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • John Kohnen
                              Laminated frames will work fine. They ll be stronger than steam-bent frames, but a lot more work. Just about every older bent-frame boat has had some broken
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 10, 2008
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                                Laminated frames will work fine. They'll be stronger than steam-bent
                                frames, but a lot more work. Just about every older bent-frame boat has
                                had some broken ribs... Steam-bent frames are quick and easy to install
                                though, and the boats so built last well enough.

                                Be sure to use wood that takes gluing well. A few weeks ago I saw a
                                (formerly) laminated stem that came out of a boat built in the 1980s,
                                IIRC. NONE of the laminations were still glued together! The wood was oak;
                                I don't know what the glue was, but I've heard much about epoxy and oak
                                not getting along. If you use planking fasteners that penetrate all the
                                laminations -- rivets would be best -- you'll have some insurance in case
                                the adhesive fails.

                                Don't get to worked up about spring back. You should set the boat up so
                                that the frames are held in their intended curve when installed. They'll
                                spring back a little when they come off the mold, but when you install
                                them on the boat you can bend them back into shape and hold them with
                                battens, cross spalls, etc. Steam-bent frames spring back too, but it
                                doesn't matter because held to the proper shape when installed. Forget the
                                fiberglass between laminations, you won't need it.

                                On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:25:54 -0700, Adaucto wrote:

                                > ...
                                > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                                > going to stick with the laminated one,
                                > ...
                                > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I thinking
                                > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you think
                                > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                                > resistance.

                                --
                                John <jkohnen@...>
                                The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
                                alarmed -- and hence clamorous to be led to safety -- by
                                menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them
                                imaginary. <H. L. Mencken>
                              • John Kohnen
                                I think that s what I d do. I d probably set up the molds and ribbands so the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the frames should be,
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 10, 2008
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                                  I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and ribbands so
                                  the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the frames
                                  should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands. Twisting
                                  the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up after the
                                  glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.

                                  On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:

                                  > ...
                                  > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                                  > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?

                                  --
                                  John <jkohnen@...>
                                  Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                                  dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                                  describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                                  described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                                • gordocutter_1
                                  Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that s the way I ll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel them later if I would
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 12, 2008
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                                    Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that's the way
                                    I'll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel
                                    them later if I would laminated before put them in their places.
                                    Doing directly on the ribbands I can get the same result if I did
                                    with the steam bent frame.

                                    Adaucto Mello


                                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and
                                    ribbands so
                                    > the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the
                                    frames
                                    > should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands.
                                    Twisting
                                    > the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up
                                    after the
                                    > glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.
                                    >
                                    > On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > ...
                                    > > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                                    > > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > John <jkohnen@...>
                                    > Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                                    > dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                                    > describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                                    > described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                                    >
                                  • Tom Hesselink
                                    Let me suggest another method for laminating frames. You can take it for what you will. Get a plastic staple gun from www.raptornails.com (the staples are
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 12, 2008
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                                      Let me suggest another method for laminating frames. You can take it
                                      for what you will.

                                      Get a plastic staple gun from www.raptornails.com (the staples are
                                      plastic, not the gun) and staple the laminates directly to the inside
                                      of the rib bands. Of course you had better heavily wax the rib bands
                                      first but then you will be able to just grind off the protruding
                                      staples after the epoxy has set and the rib bands removed. The ribs
                                      can then be faired with regular block planes, spokeshaves and small
                                      5" grinders (as they most assuredly will need some fairing). You can
                                      switch back to stainless staples on the inner laminates once the
                                      staples are not protuding. I would not incorporate fiberglass into
                                      the laminations as the whole job will be plenty messy already. The
                                      glass would add some strength but I don't think you need any more
                                      strength especially if you cold mold or strip plank the hull. By
                                      using this method you can also easily shift each laminate sideways a
                                      bit to help keep the beveled frames inline and then grind off the
                                      steps in the laminates later. It will be much easier if you cut
                                      beveled laminates for the frames with steep bevels. For a 7/8" thick
                                      frame I would suggest using about 5 laminates to prevent spring
                                      back.

                                      The idea of lofting stations so that frames can be laminated outside
                                      of the rib bands will make things very difficult as now you have to
                                      move the stations in about 2 3/8" (figuring 7/8" for the frames and
                                      1.5" for the rib bands) from what has been already dictated in the
                                      plans—that is a time consuming and complicated operation. Like I
                                      said—take it for what you want. This is going to be a challenging
                                      job no matter how it is done—patience will be a virtue. Good luck,
                                      Tom




                                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                      <gordocutter_1@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that's the
                                      way
                                      > I'll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel
                                      > them later if I would laminated before put them in their places.
                                      > Doing directly on the ribbands I can get the same result if I did
                                      > with the steam bent frame.
                                      >
                                      > Adaucto Mello
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and
                                      > ribbands so
                                      > > the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of
                                      the
                                      > frames
                                      > > should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands.
                                      > Twisting
                                      > > the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up
                                      > after the
                                      > > glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.
                                      > >
                                      > > On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > ...
                                      > > > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                                      > > > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?
                                      > >
                                      > > --
                                      > > John <jkohnen@>
                                      > > Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                                      > > dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                                      > > describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                                      > > described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                                      > >
                                      >
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