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Re: [AtkinBoats] Re:Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

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  • Kenneth Grome
    ... Cold molding can actually eliminate most or all of the frames, produce a stronger structure overall, and create a nice clean interior that s very easy to
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 31, 2008
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      > Laminating will require more time and expense
      > in materials both lumber and adhesives. It will
      > also be messy. However I believe that it will yield
      > a stronger and more stable frame per dimension
      > than steam bending.

      Cold molding can actually eliminate most or all of the frames, produce a
      stronger structure overall, and create a nice clean interior that's
      very easy to maintain and to add furniture to.

      Cold molded hulls are also reported to maintain their value much better
      than other hulls built using wood.

      Sincerely,
      Ken Grome
      Bagacay Boatworks
      www.bagacayboatworks.com
    • Don Douglas
      From my reading on boatbuilding and the discussion of laminated members versus saw or steam-bent frames I think you would be fine keeping the scantlings the
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 31, 2008
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        From my reading on boatbuilding and the discussion of laminated members versus saw or steam-bent frames I think you would be fine keeping the scantlings the same as they are now. Especially on a desing like Maid of Endor. On Perigee, John Atkin redrew the lines for strip planking and changed the framing from full steam bent frames on 9" centers to half frames on 30" centers.

        Here are some fuller details of John Atkin's modifications to Perigee drawn in 1988. (my comments in parentheses)

        Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 30" centers (from the scale drawing they only extend up the inside of the hull about 18" from the keel and mounted to the floors)
        Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these appear to be mounted higher than William's original design and the LWL defines the mid point of the ceiling)
        Hanging Knees: one on each side in line with the mast, a one on each side 12" before and aft of these. (they are sided 7/8" regardless of whether they are grown or laminated)
        Inwale: 7/8" x 3" white oak (this runs the full length of the hull and the deck beams set on top.
        Floor timbers: 1 1/8" white oak on 15" centers (so it appears there are floors in between the frames also that the strip planks attach to)
        There are also tie rods of 5/16" bronze rod which tie the carlins to the deck beams to the hull.
        The outside of the strip planking is covered with two layers of 4 oz polyproline impregnated with epoxy.

        Williams Atkin's original scantlings

        Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 9" centers (these extend to the sheer line and fit into notches in the keel)
        Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these are show along the flat of the hull profile below the LWL)
        Clamp: 7/8" x 3" yellow pine (this is mounted to the frames and into knees fore and aft.
        Shelf: 7/8" x 4" yellow pine (mounted on top of the clamp, deck beams are mounted to this)
        Floor timbers: 7/8" white oak on each frame

        Planking on both is 3/4" white cedar

        So this put me into a similar situation as gordocutter and here is what I plan on doing.
        1. Keep frames on original lines but skip every other one. This will give me 18" centers and keep the ones needed for bulkheads.
        Result: more frames than John's specs for strip planking, less than William's carvel planked.
        2. Keep frames full length to sheer and utilize both sheer clamp and shelve as in original design.
        Result: Stiffer hull at top of sheer and across deck.
        3. With full frames I will lower the ceiling strakes back down toward William's original design in order to keep them below interior fixtures like forward storage shelves and main cabin stove and sink counter top.

        Looking back at the Maid of Endor articles and photos, it appears the here also are few full length frames and lots of hanging knees. The spacing looks about what John spec'ed out for Perigee guessing from the relative size of the interior. Most articles/books state that strip planking can eliminate or reduce the need for frames. The nailing together of the planks and the covering of the outside with laminate and epoxy does wonders for strengthing the hull structure as a whole. So my bottom line idea is to laminate my frames from molds made from the lofting. There will be 5 layers to make up the 7/8" final thickness. Once the frames are removed from the molds they will spring back some but this should not be a problem when I fit them. There will by main molds and ribbands setup so the frames should spring back to the designed shape very closely. Or that is what I plan. Then once the strip planks start going on the frames should pull up tightly to the planks nicely.

        Well that is my essay for the night. My wife is wondering why I am not watching "Dancing With The Stars"!
        Don Douglas

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • George C
        Another reason for keeping the frames on a cold-molded hull is for appearance. The laminated frames keep a traditional look on a traditional design! ... From:
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 1, 2008
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          Another reason for keeping the frames on a cold-molded hull is for appearance. The laminated frames keep a traditional look on a traditional design!


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Don Douglas <douglashome@...>
          To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 7:53:24 PM
          Subject: Re: [AtkinBoats] Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

          From my reading on boatbuilding and the discussion of laminated members versus saw or steam-bent frames I think you would be fine keeping the scantlings the same as they are now. Especially on a desing like Maid of Endor. On Perigee, John Atkin redrew the lines for strip planking and changed the framing from full steam bent frames on 9" centers to half frames on 30" centers.

          Here are some fuller details of John Atkin's modifications to Perigee drawn in 1988. (my comments in parentheses)

          Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 30" centers (from the scale drawing they only extend up the inside of the hull about 18" from the keel and mounted to the floors)
          Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these appear to be mounted higher than William's original design and the LWL defines the mid point of the ceiling)
          Hanging Knees: one on each side in line with the mast, a one on each side 12" before and aft of these. (they are sided 7/8" regardless of whether they are grown or laminated)
          Inwale: 7/8" x 3" white oak (this runs the full length of the hull and the deck beams set on top.
          Floor timbers: 1 1/8" white oak on 15" centers (so it appears there are floors in between the frames also that the strip planks attach to)
          There are also tie rods of 5/16" bronze rod which tie the carlins to the deck beams to the hull.
          The outside of the strip planking is covered with two layers of 4 oz polyproline impregnated with epoxy.

          Williams Atkin's original scantlings

          Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 9" centers (these extend to the sheer line and fit into notches in the keel)
          Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these are show along the flat of the hull profile below the LWL)
          Clamp: 7/8" x 3" yellow pine (this is mounted to the frames and into knees fore and aft.
          Shelf: 7/8" x 4" yellow pine (mounted on top of the clamp, deck beams are mounted to this)
          Floor timbers: 7/8" white oak on each frame

          Planking on both is 3/4" white cedar

          So this put me into a similar situation as gordocutter and here is what I plan on doing.
          1. Keep frames on original lines but skip every other one. This will give me 18" centers and keep the ones needed for bulkheads.
          Result: more frames than John's specs for strip planking, less than William's carvel planked.
          2. Keep frames full length to sheer and utilize both sheer clamp and shelve as in original design.
          Result: Stiffer hull at top of sheer and across deck.
          3. With full frames I will lower the ceiling strakes back down toward William's original design in order to keep them below interior fixtures like forward storage shelves and main cabin stove and sink counter top.

          Looking back at the Maid of Endor articles and photos, it appears the here also are few full length frames and lots of hanging knees. The spacing looks about what John spec'ed out for Perigee guessing from the relative size of the interior. Most articles/books state that strip planking can eliminate or reduce the need for frames. The nailing together of the planks and the covering of the outside with laminate and epoxy does wonders for strengthing the hull structure as a whole. So my bottom line idea is to laminate my frames from molds made from the lofting. There will be 5 layers to make up the 7/8" final thickness. Once the frames are removed from the molds they will spring back some but this should not be a problem when I fit them. There will by main molds and ribbands setup so the frames should spring back to the designed shape very closely. Or that is what I plan. Then once the strip planks start going on the frames should pull up tightly
          to the planks nicely.

          Well that is my essay for the night. My wife is wondering why I am not watching "Dancing With The Stars"!
          Don Douglas

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • gordocutter_1
          Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you re enjoying it! I m starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I m going to stick with the
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
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            Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying it!
            I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
            going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to make
            the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to make
            this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose in a
            lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all the
            support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info that
            you give came to be very handful for me.
            To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I thinking
            in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you think
            about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
            resistance.
            Thanks .

            Adaucto.


            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list and I
            > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
            > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at least
            > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
            bending
            > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
            bending. I
            > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
            suspect
            > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
            > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning experience
            > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
            > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
            master
            > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
            crowd.
            > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
            way; he
            > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge for
            an
            > amateur.
            >
            > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
            differences in
            > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes
            me
            > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
            builders
            > in the 1920's, it's
            >
            > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard M.
            > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search (set
            to
            > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some of
            > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
            here;
            > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
            > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
            > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on
            that
            > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
            >
            > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
            > that would work for Maid of Endor?
            >
            > Mike Dolph
            >
            > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1" <gordocutter_1@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
            versus
            > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
            each.
            > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
            planking
            > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
            decade
            > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
            probably be
            > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
            > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
            Brazilian
            > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
            if I
            > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
            those
            > > used for laminated frames.
            > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
            > >
            >
          • gordocutter_1
            Hi there Don! Thanks for the tips, your plans are very similar to the Maid of Endor, the frames are also 7/8 x 7/8 , and they are 9 1/4 centers but I m
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
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              Hi there Don! Thanks for the tips, your plans are very similar to
              the Maid of Endor, the frames are also 7/8" x 7/8", and they are 9
              1/4'' centers but I'm thinking in doing all of them, with the same
              centers and with laminated frames, like I was saying to Mike, I
              would like to build with steam bent frames but it's a "little" to
              hard for me, for the spring back problem somebody in Brazil of
              another group of boat builders has told me that you could overcome
              this problem by putting long and thin parts of fiberglass between
              the veneers, that could also add some resistance to the frame, what
              you think about it?
              Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
              using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?

              Cheers
              Adaucto


              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > From my reading on boatbuilding and the discussion of laminated
              members versus saw or steam-bent frames I think you would be fine
              keeping the scantlings the same as they are now. Especially on a
              desing like Maid of Endor. On Perigee, John Atkin redrew the lines
              for strip planking and changed the framing from full steam bent
              frames on 9" centers to half frames on 30" centers.
              >
              > Here are some fuller details of John Atkin's modifications to
              Perigee drawn in 1988. (my comments in parentheses)
              >
              > Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 30" centers (from the scale
              drawing they only extend up the inside of the hull about 18" from
              the keel and mounted to the floors)
              > Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these appear to be
              mounted higher than William's original design and the LWL defines
              the mid point of the ceiling)
              > Hanging Knees: one on each side in line with the mast, a one on
              each side 12" before and aft of these. (they are sided 7/8"
              regardless of whether they are grown or laminated)
              > Inwale: 7/8" x 3" white oak (this runs the full length of the
              hull and the deck beams set on top.
              > Floor timbers: 1 1/8" white oak on 15" centers (so it appears
              there are floors in between the frames also that the strip planks
              attach to)
              > There are also tie rods of 5/16" bronze rod which tie the carlins
              to the deck beams to the hull.
              > The outside of the strip planking is covered with two layers of 4
              oz polyproline impregnated with epoxy.
              >
              > Williams Atkin's original scantlings
              >
              > Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 9" centers (these extend to the
              sheer line and fit into notches in the keel)
              > Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these are show
              along the flat of the hull profile below the LWL)
              > Clamp: 7/8" x 3" yellow pine (this is mounted to the frames and
              into knees fore and aft.
              > Shelf: 7/8" x 4" yellow pine (mounted on top of the clamp, deck
              beams are mounted to this)
              > Floor timbers: 7/8" white oak on each frame
              >
              > Planking on both is 3/4" white cedar
              >
              > So this put me into a similar situation as gordocutter and here is
              what I plan on doing.
              > 1. Keep frames on original lines but skip every other one. This
              will give me 18" centers and keep the ones needed for bulkheads.
              > Result: more frames than John's specs for strip planking,
              less than William's carvel planked.
              > 2. Keep frames full length to sheer and utilize both sheer clamp
              and shelve as in original design.
              > Result: Stiffer hull at top of sheer and across deck.
              > 3. With full frames I will lower the ceiling strakes back down
              toward William's original design in order to keep them below
              interior fixtures like forward storage shelves and main cabin stove
              and sink counter top.
              >
              > Looking back at the Maid of Endor articles and photos, it appears
              the here also are few full length frames and lots of hanging knees.
              The spacing looks about what John spec'ed out for Perigee guessing
              from the relative size of the interior. Most articles/books state
              that strip planking can eliminate or reduce the need for frames.
              The nailing together of the planks and the covering of the outside
              with laminate and epoxy does wonders for strengthing the hull
              structure as a whole. So my bottom line idea is to laminate my
              frames from molds made from the lofting. There will be 5 layers to
              make up the 7/8" final thickness. Once the frames are removed from
              the molds they will spring back some but this should not be a
              problem when I fit them. There will by main molds and ribbands
              setup so the frames should spring back to the designed shape very
              closely. Or that is what I plan. Then once the strip planks start
              going on the frames should pull up tightly to the planks nicely.
              >
              > Well that is my essay for the night. My wife is wondering why I
              am not watching "Dancing With The Stars"!
              > Don Douglas
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • gordocutter_1
              Hi George ! I also made the same google search for find some site of the builder but all that I found was that address, didn t help me very much cause it
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
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                Hi George ! I also made the same google search for find some site of
                the builder but all that I found was that address, didn't help me
                very much cause it doesn't have even a phone number, even if it was
                he is in England so… the phone bill would be astronomic.
                But I was very interest by the book that you wrote about, and I'm
                about to search it now, thanks very much.

                Adaucto


                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, George C <glcost2@...> wrote:
                >
                > The Robelia was built by a professional in the UK. He used 1/2"
                strip planking with one 3mm veneer lamination and 2 layers of glass.
                Not sure on the size of frames, but the photos in the article do
                give a relative idea. Maybe Gordocutter can contact the builder to
                get more details. I did a quick google search and found this address.
                >
                > EUAN SEEL MARINE SURVEYS LIMITED
                > 1 Alton Green, Lower Holbrook, Ipswich,
                > Suffolk United Kingdom
                >
                > If Gordocutter is interested in cold-molding, there is a book by
                Reuel Parker called The New Cold-Molded Boatbuilding from lofting to
                launch. There is a chapter on choosing a design and adapting a
                design. It might help in making some decisions. Here's a link to it:
                >
                >
                > http://tinyurl.com/344ffm
                >
                > George
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: Mike Dolph <johndolph@...>
                > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 5:01:30 PM
                > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames
                >
                > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian
                Yahoo list and I
                > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
                > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at least
                > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                bending
                > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                bending. I
                > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                suspect
                > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
                > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning experience
                > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
                > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                master
                > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                crowd.
                > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                way; he
                > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge for
                an
                > amateur.
                >
                > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                differences in
                > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes
                me
                > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                builders
                > in the 1920's, it's
                >
                > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard M.
                > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search (set
                to
                > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some of
                > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                here;
                > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
                > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
                > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on
                that
                > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                >
                > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
                > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                >
                > Mike Dolph
                >
                > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1" <gordocutter_
                1@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                versus
                > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                each.
                > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                planking
                > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                decade
                > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                probably be
                > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                Brazilian
                > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                if I
                > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                those
                > > used for laminated frames.
                > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • gordocutter_1
                Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very interested, I m now thinking in building with laminated frames. ... page ... frames ... of ... and ... versus ...
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very interested, I'm now
                  thinking in building with laminated frames.
                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "glcost2" <glcost2@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Have you read the 2 articles at the bottom of the Maid of Endor
                  page
                  > on Atkinboatplans.com. Both are on Robella which has laminated
                  frames
                  > and cold-molded hull. The articles don't mention the pros or cons
                  of
                  > laminated frames, but are very good reading on a non-traditional
                  and
                  > successful build.
                  >
                  > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1" <gordocutter_1@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                  versus
                  > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                  each.
                  > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                  planking
                  > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                  decade
                  > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                  probably be
                  > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                  > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                  Brazilian
                  > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                  if I
                  > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                  those
                  > > used for laminated frames.
                  > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                  > >
                  >
                • George C
                  Gordocutter, The tinyurl link below will take you to the book. There are many pages that you can read. http://tinyurl.com/344ffm George ... From: gordocutter_1
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Gordocutter,

                    The tinyurl link below will take you to the book. There are many pages that you can read.
                    http://tinyurl.com/344ffm

                    George


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: gordocutter_1 <gordocutter_1@...>
                    To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:01:57 PM
                    Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

                    Hi George ! I also made the same google search for find some site of
                    the builder but all that I found was that address, didn't help me
                    very much cause it doesn't have even a phone number, even if it was
                    he is in England so� the phone bill would be astronomic.
                    But I was very interest by the book that you wrote about, and I'm
                    about to search it now, thanks very much.

                    Adaucto

                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, George C <glcost2@... > wrote:
                    >
                    > The Robelia was built by a professional in the UK. He used 1/2"
                    strip planking with one 3mm veneer lamination and 2 layers of glass.
                    Not sure on the size of frames, but the photos in the article do
                    give a relative idea. Maybe Gordocutter can contact the builder to
                    get more details. I did a quick google search and found this address.
                    >
                    > EUAN SEEL MARINE SURVEYS LIMITED
                    > 1 Alton Green, Lower Holbrook, Ipswich,
                    > Suffolk United Kingdom
                    >
                    > If Gordocutter is interested in cold-molding, there is a book by
                    Reuel Parker called The New Cold-Molded Boatbuilding from lofting to
                    launch. There is a chapter on choosing a design and adapting a
                    design. It might help in making some decisions. Here's a link to it:
                    >
                    >
                    > http://tinyurl. com/344ffm
                    >
                    > George
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message ----
                    > From: Mike Dolph <johndolph@. ..>
                    > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 5:01:30 PM
                    > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames
                    >
                    > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian
                    Yahoo list and I
                    > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
                    > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at least
                    > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                    bending
                    > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                    bending. I
                    > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                    suspect
                    > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
                    > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning experience
                    > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
                    > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                    master
                    > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                    crowd.
                    > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                    way; he
                    > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge for
                    an
                    > amateur.
                    >
                    > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                    differences in
                    > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes
                    me
                    > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                    builders
                    > in the 1920's, it's
                    >
                    > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard M.
                    > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search (set
                    to
                    > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some of
                    > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                    here;
                    > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
                    > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
                    > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on
                    that
                    > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                    >
                    > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
                    > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                    >
                    > Mike Dolph
                    >
                    > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1" <gordocutter_
                    1@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                    versus
                    > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                    each.
                    > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                    planking
                    > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                    decade
                    > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                    probably be
                    > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                    > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                    Brazilian
                    > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                    if I
                    > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                    those
                    > > used for laminated frames.
                    > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                  • George C
                    Gordocutter, At the bottom the article (don t remember which one), there is an email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him with
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Gordocutter,

                      At the bottom the article (don't remember which one), there is an email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him with questions.

                      George


                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: gordocutter_1 <gordocutter_1@...>
                      To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:07:24 PM
                      Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

                      Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very interested, I'm now
                      thinking in building with laminated frames.
                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "glcost2" <glcost2@... > wrote:
                      >
                      > Have you read the 2 articles at the bottom of the Maid of Endor
                      page
                      > on Atkinboatplans. com. Both are on Robella which has laminated
                      frames
                      > and cold-molded hull. The articles don't mention the pros or cons
                      of
                      > laminated frames, but are very good reading on a non-traditional
                      and
                      > successful build.
                      >
                      > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1" <gordocutter_ 1@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                      versus
                      > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                      each.
                      > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                      planking
                      > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                      decade
                      > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                      probably be
                      > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                      > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                      Brazilian
                      > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                      if I
                      > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                      those
                      > > used for laminated frames.
                      > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                      > >
                      >




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                    • gordocutter_1
                      There is? I didn t notice! Will check right now, don t now how this pass by me, thanks! ... email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 3, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        There is? I didn't notice! Will check right now, don't now how this
                        pass by me, thanks!

                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, George C <glcost2@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Gordocutter,
                        >
                        > At the bottom the article (don't remember which one), there is an
                        email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him
                        with questions.
                        >
                        > George
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: gordocutter_1 <gordocutter_1@...>
                        > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:07:24 PM
                        > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames
                        >
                        > Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very
                        interested, I'm now
                        > thinking in building with laminated frames.
                        > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "glcost2" <glcost2@ > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Have you read the 2 articles at the bottom of the Maid of Endor
                        > page
                        > > on Atkinboatplans. com. Both are on Robella which has laminated
                        > frames
                        > > and cold-molded hull. The articles don't mention the pros or
                        cons
                        > of
                        > > laminated frames, but are very good reading on a non-traditional
                        > and
                        > > successful build.
                        > >
                        > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1"
                        <gordocutter_ 1@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                        > versus
                        > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                        > each.
                        > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                        > planking
                        > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                        > decade
                        > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                        > probably be
                        > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                        > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                        > Brazilian
                        > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
                        but
                        > if I
                        > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                        > those
                        > > > used for laminated frames.
                        > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Mike Dolph
                        Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was as long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My former marriage to a
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 3, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was as
                          long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My former
                          marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
                          there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after so
                          many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
                          income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
                          being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be more
                          than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
                          frames and structural members John Atkins specified.

                          I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
                          some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but there
                          are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
                          different woods.

                          I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch by
                          discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country of
                          my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not officially.

                          Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph

                          I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
                          and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.

                          Mike Dolph

                          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                          <gordocutter_1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
                          it!
                          > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                          > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
                          make
                          > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to make
                          > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose in a
                          > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all the
                          > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info that
                          > you give came to be very handful for me.
                          > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I thinking
                          > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
                          think
                          > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                          > resistance.
                          > Thanks .
                          >
                          > Adaucto.
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list and I
                          > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
                          > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
                          least
                          > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                          > bending
                          > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                          > bending. I
                          > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                          > suspect
                          > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
                          > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
                          experience
                          > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
                          > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                          > master
                          > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                          > crowd.
                          > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                          > way; he
                          > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
                          for
                          > an
                          > > amateur.
                          > >
                          > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                          > differences in
                          > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes
                          > me
                          > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                          > builders
                          > > in the 1920's, it's
                          > >
                          > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard
                          M.
                          > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
                          (set
                          > to
                          > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some
                          of
                          > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                          > here;
                          > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
                          > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
                          > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on
                          > that
                          > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                          > >
                          > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
                          > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                          > >
                          > > Mike Dolph
                          > >
                          > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                          <gordocutter_1@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                          > versus
                          > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                          > each.
                          > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                          > planking
                          > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                          > decade
                          > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                          > probably be
                          > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                          > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                          > Brazilian
                          > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                          > if I
                          > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                          > those
                          > > > used for laminated frames.
                          > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Don Douglas
                          Aduacto, I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to my list of ideas
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 3, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Aduacto,

                            I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the wood layers?

                            Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that. Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.

                            As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and spokeshaves sharp.

                            Anyway that's the plan
                            Don Douglas




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Mike Dolph
                            Douglas, I don t want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this in mind. I
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 4, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Douglas,

                              I don't want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built
                              a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this
                              in mind.

                              I don't remember having read of a strict order for considering lines
                              in lofting corrections but on giving it some thought I would try this
                              and call it my best effort. I'd fair all the initial lines such as
                              sheer, keel, profile and plan lines the architect would have done
                              first. Then an architect would draw in three stations of
                              approximately the displacement he wants but I would give emphasis to
                              diagonals in lofting since he would have gone through several
                              iterations of that to get his drawings and what I mainly want to
                              achieve is a smooth, surface for planking and waterflow. Once
                              diagonals were fair, I'd work the changes into the stations trying to
                              leave the sheer and keel alone and, if at all possible, the rabbet as
                              drawn. This seems to me to make the boat fair and doable with the
                              least necessary changes to the architects intent.

                              This describes more changes than you would probably actually have to
                              decide on. I would certainly like to hear yours or anyone else's
                              priorities in lofting as well. In the end you have to decide, since
                              the Atkin's aren't there it's up to you to "skin this cat".

                              Mike Dolph

                              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Aduacto,
                              >

                              > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                              gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                              draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                              try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                              fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                              correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything
                              to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is
                              very different from how it was done 75 years ago.
                              > Don Douglas
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Tim & Kris
                              A few comments: 1.) A properly laminated frame is about 3/4 again stronger than a similarly dimensioned steam bent frame of the same material. 2.) Watch what
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 4, 2008
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                                A few comments:

                                1.) A properly laminated frame is about 3/4 again stronger than a
                                similarly dimensioned steam bent frame of the same material.

                                2.) Watch what you use; both adhesives and wood. High oil content wood
                                or wood with tyloses (i.e. teak, ipe, or white oak) don't laminate
                                correctly unless it's done in a very controlled manner, and even then
                                it's up for debate. Your adhesive choices are pretty much epoxy,
                                resourcinal, or Polyurethane (non-foaming).

                                3.) Lofting a boat where the table of offsets was derived from the
                                drawings is a bit of a best fit exercise. Use good battens and work
                                for the fairest line and you should be okay.

                                4.) If your planning on cold molding, the frames are pretty much there
                                for show when it's all said and done. I don't think this is
                                necessarily a bad thing as having a hull be too strong is okay with
                                me, and the interior room lost is minimal.

                                Tim



                                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Douglas,
                                >
                                > I don't want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built
                                > a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this
                                > in mind.
                                >
                                > I don't remember having read of a strict order for considering lines
                                > in lofting corrections but on giving it some thought I would try this
                                > and call it my best effort. I'd fair all the initial lines such as
                                > sheer, keel, profile and plan lines the architect would have done
                                > first. Then an architect would draw in three stations of
                                > approximately the displacement he wants but I would give emphasis to
                                > diagonals in lofting since he would have gone through several
                                > iterations of that to get his drawings and what I mainly want to
                                > achieve is a smooth, surface for planking and waterflow. Once
                                > diagonals were fair, I'd work the changes into the stations trying to
                                > leave the sheer and keel alone and, if at all possible, the rabbet as
                                > drawn. This seems to me to make the boat fair and doable with the
                                > least necessary changes to the architects intent.
                                >
                                > This describes more changes than you would probably actually have to
                                > decide on. I would certainly like to hear yours or anyone else's
                                > priorities in lofting as well. In the end you have to decide, since
                                > the Atkin's aren't there it's up to you to "skin this cat".
                                >
                                > Mike Dolph
                                >
                                > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Aduacto,
                                > >
                                >
                                > > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                                > gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                                > draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                                > try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                                > fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                                > correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything
                                > to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is
                                > very different from how it was done 75 years ago.
                                > > Don Douglas
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                              • gordocutter_1
                                Hi Douglas! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems, and I was trying to contact the guy ho told me about the laminated
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Douglas! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to
                                  solve some problems, and I was trying to contact the guy ho told me
                                  about the laminated technique, and ask him about your questions,
                                  still didn't get a answer. Sadly I can not answer your questions
                                  about the weight of the cloth, or how it would look like the ended
                                  product, but I do have some clues about it:
                                  The frames are thin so, I suspect that they don't need too much
                                  strength to hold the spring back, I was thinking that one layer of
                                  fiberglass between four layers of wood can be enough to hold them, I
                                  think that the strength of the epoxi combine with the one layer of
                                  fiber can do the job properly, and if its stay between two layers
                                  of wood it would not be very visualize in the final product .
                                  For example four layers off wood with 3/16" and one layer between
                                  them of 1/8" fiberglass. That is how I think would work. If you put
                                  a layer of fiber between each layer of wood you would have to reduce
                                  the thickness of the wood in order to get the same dimensions of the
                                  frame (7/8") and the fiberglass would be more visualize if you do
                                  that way. When I get the answer of the guy that told me the tip, I
                                  keep you informed.

                                  Cheers
                                  Adaucto


                                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Aduacto,
                                  >
                                  > I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the
                                  wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to
                                  my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between
                                  each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final
                                  laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look
                                  like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another
                                  question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the
                                  wood layers?
                                  >
                                  > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                                  gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                                  draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                                  try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                                  fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                                  correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required
                                  everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets
                                  format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did
                                  make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that.
                                  Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast
                                  that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has
                                  all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-
                                  stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms
                                  up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.
                                  >
                                  > As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems
                                  to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the
                                  strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line
                                  them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold
                                  patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used
                                  to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that
                                  would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to
                                  incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that
                                  is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of
                                  the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to
                                  the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands
                                  start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard
                                  to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and
                                  spokeshaves sharp.
                                  >
                                  > Anyway that's the plan
                                  > Don Douglas
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • gordocutter_1
                                  Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don t understand why you can not.
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve
                                    some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don't
                                    understand why you can not. I'm surprised that you have a Brazilian
                                    kid, when you get any vacations here let me know; maybe we can do
                                    some "live" chat about boats. I'm glad too that I found a way for
                                    the construction. As for the wood, eucalyptus is not the final
                                    decision is just a study option, I'm open for others, but I'm still
                                    searching, I already talk with the suppliers of the lyptus in order
                                    to get some samples for doing some experiments with, lets see what's
                                    going to be…
                                    Cheers

                                    Adaucto



                                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was
                                    as
                                    > long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My
                                    former
                                    > marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
                                    > there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after
                                    so
                                    > many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
                                    > income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
                                    > being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be
                                    more
                                    > than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
                                    > frames and structural members John Atkins specified.
                                    >
                                    > I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
                                    > some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but
                                    there
                                    > are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
                                    > different woods.
                                    >
                                    > I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch
                                    by
                                    > discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country
                                    of
                                    > my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not
                                    officially.
                                    >
                                    > Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph
                                    >
                                    > I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
                                    > and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.
                                    >
                                    > Mike Dolph
                                    >
                                    > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                    > <gordocutter_1@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
                                    > it!
                                    > > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                                    > > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
                                    > make
                                    > > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to
                                    make
                                    > > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose
                                    in a
                                    > > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all
                                    the
                                    > > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info
                                    that
                                    > > you give came to be very handful for me.
                                    > > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I
                                    thinking
                                    > > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
                                    > think
                                    > > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                                    > > resistance.
                                    > > Thanks .
                                    > >
                                    > > Adaucto.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list
                                    and I
                                    > > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and
                                    framing
                                    > > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
                                    > least
                                    > > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                                    > > bending
                                    > > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                                    > > bending. I
                                    > > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                                    > > suspect
                                    > > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer
                                    it
                                    > > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
                                    > experience
                                    > > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better
                                    off
                                    > > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                                    > > master
                                    > > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                                    > > crowd.
                                    > > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                                    > > way; he
                                    > > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
                                    > for
                                    > > an
                                    > > > amateur.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                                    > > differences in
                                    > > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term
                                    escapes
                                    > > me
                                    > > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                                    > > builders
                                    > > > in the 1920's, it's
                                    > > >
                                    > > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by
                                    Richard
                                    > M.
                                    > > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
                                    > (set
                                    > > to
                                    > > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and
                                    some
                                    > of
                                    > > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                                    > > here;
                                    > > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this
                                    will
                                    > > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat
                                    Building" by
                                    > > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations
                                    on
                                    > > that
                                    > > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone
                                    details
                                    > > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Mike Dolph
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                    > <gordocutter_1@>
                                    > > > wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                                    > > versus
                                    > > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages
                                    of
                                    > > each.
                                    > > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified
                                    for
                                    > > planking
                                    > > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in
                                    this
                                    > > decade
                                    > > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                                    > > probably be
                                    > > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never
                                    now.
                                    > > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                                    > > Brazilian
                                    > > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
                                    but
                                    > > if I
                                    > > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different
                                    from
                                    > > those
                                    > > > > used for laminated frames.
                                    > > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • gordocutter_1
                                    Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don t understand why you can not.
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve
                                      some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don't
                                      understand why you can not. I'm surprised that you have a Brazilian
                                      kid, when you get any vacations here let me know maybe we can do
                                      some "live" chat about boats. I'm glad too that I found a way for
                                      the construction. As for the wood, eucalyptus is not the final
                                      decision is just a study option, I'm open for others, but I'm still
                                      searching, I already talk with the suppliers of the lyptus in order
                                      to get some samples for doing some experiments with, lets see what's
                                      going to be…
                                      Cheers

                                      Adaucto



                                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was
                                      as
                                      > long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My
                                      former
                                      > marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
                                      > there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after
                                      so
                                      > many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
                                      > income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
                                      > being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be
                                      more
                                      > than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
                                      > frames and structural members John Atkins specified.
                                      >
                                      > I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
                                      > some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but
                                      there
                                      > are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
                                      > different woods.
                                      >
                                      > I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch
                                      by
                                      > discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country
                                      of
                                      > my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not
                                      officially.
                                      >
                                      > Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph
                                      >
                                      > I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
                                      > and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.
                                      >
                                      > Mike Dolph
                                      >
                                      > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                      > <gordocutter_1@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
                                      > it!
                                      > > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                                      > > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
                                      > make
                                      > > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to
                                      make
                                      > > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose
                                      in a
                                      > > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all
                                      the
                                      > > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info
                                      that
                                      > > you give came to be very handful for me.
                                      > > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I
                                      thinking
                                      > > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
                                      > think
                                      > > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                                      > > resistance.
                                      > > Thanks .
                                      > >
                                      > > Adaucto.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list
                                      and I
                                      > > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and
                                      framing
                                      > > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
                                      > least
                                      > > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                                      > > bending
                                      > > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                                      > > bending. I
                                      > > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                                      > > suspect
                                      > > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer
                                      it
                                      > > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
                                      > experience
                                      > > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better
                                      off
                                      > > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                                      > > master
                                      > > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                                      > > crowd.
                                      > > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                                      > > way; he
                                      > > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
                                      > for
                                      > > an
                                      > > > amateur.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                                      > > differences in
                                      > > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term
                                      escapes
                                      > > me
                                      > > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                                      > > builders
                                      > > > in the 1920's, it's
                                      > > >
                                      > > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by
                                      Richard
                                      > M.
                                      > > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
                                      > (set
                                      > > to
                                      > > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and
                                      some
                                      > of
                                      > > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                                      > > here;
                                      > > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this
                                      will
                                      > > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat
                                      Building" by
                                      > > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations
                                      on
                                      > > that
                                      > > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone
                                      details
                                      > > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Mike Dolph
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                      > <gordocutter_1@>
                                      > > > wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                                      > > versus
                                      > > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages
                                      of
                                      > > each.
                                      > > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified
                                      for
                                      > > planking
                                      > > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in
                                      this
                                      > > decade
                                      > > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                                      > > probably be
                                      > > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never
                                      now.
                                      > > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                                      > > Brazilian
                                      > > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
                                      but
                                      > > if I
                                      > > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different
                                      from
                                      > > those
                                      > > > > used for laminated frames.
                                      > > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • gordocutter_1
                                      Hi Don! I just read the answer, of the friend that told me about the tip, and you re right about the way to go, the layers are intercalated one of wood one of
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi Don! I just read the answer, of the friend that told me about the
                                        tip, and you're right about the way to go, the layers are
                                        intercalated one of wood one of fiber but it can be less of fiber
                                        than wood for example 4 layers of wood (would be like 5 mm for a
                                        7/8" frame ) and two or three of fiber, the final appearance would
                                        be like a thicker glue between the layers of wood, I think this
                                        could look nice for a bright work. He didn't told me the weight of
                                        the fiber just what kind of it, unidirectional fiber, here in Brazil
                                        we buying this kind of fiber in "roles" (don't now if is the right
                                        word), I'm getting some samples of eucalyptus in order to do some
                                        test with the wood for frames and I will use this method, when I do
                                        will show you some photos of the result, hope I helped!

                                        Adaucto


                                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Aduacto,
                                        >
                                        > I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the
                                        wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to
                                        my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between
                                        each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final
                                        laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look
                                        like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another
                                        question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the
                                        wood layers?
                                        >
                                        > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                                        gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                                        draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                                        try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                                        fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                                        correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required
                                        everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets
                                        format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did
                                        make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that.
                                        Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast
                                        that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has
                                        all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-
                                        stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms
                                        up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.
                                        >
                                        > As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems
                                        to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the
                                        strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line
                                        them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold
                                        patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used
                                        to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that
                                        would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to
                                        incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that
                                        is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of
                                        the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to
                                        the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands
                                        start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard
                                        to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and
                                        spokeshaves sharp.
                                        >
                                        > Anyway that's the plan
                                        > Don Douglas
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • John Kohnen
                                        Laminated frames will work fine. They ll be stronger than steam-bent frames, but a lot more work. Just about every older bent-frame boat has had some broken
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Apr 10, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Laminated frames will work fine. They'll be stronger than steam-bent
                                          frames, but a lot more work. Just about every older bent-frame boat has
                                          had some broken ribs... Steam-bent frames are quick and easy to install
                                          though, and the boats so built last well enough.

                                          Be sure to use wood that takes gluing well. A few weeks ago I saw a
                                          (formerly) laminated stem that came out of a boat built in the 1980s,
                                          IIRC. NONE of the laminations were still glued together! The wood was oak;
                                          I don't know what the glue was, but I've heard much about epoxy and oak
                                          not getting along. If you use planking fasteners that penetrate all the
                                          laminations -- rivets would be best -- you'll have some insurance in case
                                          the adhesive fails.

                                          Don't get to worked up about spring back. You should set the boat up so
                                          that the frames are held in their intended curve when installed. They'll
                                          spring back a little when they come off the mold, but when you install
                                          them on the boat you can bend them back into shape and hold them with
                                          battens, cross spalls, etc. Steam-bent frames spring back too, but it
                                          doesn't matter because held to the proper shape when installed. Forget the
                                          fiberglass between laminations, you won't need it.

                                          On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:25:54 -0700, Adaucto wrote:

                                          > ...
                                          > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                                          > going to stick with the laminated one,
                                          > ...
                                          > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I thinking
                                          > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you think
                                          > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                                          > resistance.

                                          --
                                          John <jkohnen@...>
                                          The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
                                          alarmed -- and hence clamorous to be led to safety -- by
                                          menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them
                                          imaginary. <H. L. Mencken>
                                        • John Kohnen
                                          I think that s what I d do. I d probably set up the molds and ribbands so the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the frames should be,
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Apr 10, 2008
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                                            I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and ribbands so
                                            the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the frames
                                            should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands. Twisting
                                            the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up after the
                                            glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.

                                            On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:

                                            > ...
                                            > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                                            > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?

                                            --
                                            John <jkohnen@...>
                                            Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                                            dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                                            describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                                            described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                                          • gordocutter_1
                                            Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that s the way I ll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel them later if I would
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Apr 12, 2008
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                                              Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that's the way
                                              I'll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel
                                              them later if I would laminated before put them in their places.
                                              Doing directly on the ribbands I can get the same result if I did
                                              with the steam bent frame.

                                              Adaucto Mello


                                              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and
                                              ribbands so
                                              > the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the
                                              frames
                                              > should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands.
                                              Twisting
                                              > the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up
                                              after the
                                              > glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.
                                              >
                                              > On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > ...
                                              > > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                                              > > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              > John <jkohnen@...>
                                              > Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                                              > dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                                              > describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                                              > described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                                              >
                                            • Tom Hesselink
                                              Let me suggest another method for laminating frames. You can take it for what you will. Get a plastic staple gun from www.raptornails.com (the staples are
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Apr 12, 2008
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                                                Let me suggest another method for laminating frames. You can take it
                                                for what you will.

                                                Get a plastic staple gun from www.raptornails.com (the staples are
                                                plastic, not the gun) and staple the laminates directly to the inside
                                                of the rib bands. Of course you had better heavily wax the rib bands
                                                first but then you will be able to just grind off the protruding
                                                staples after the epoxy has set and the rib bands removed. The ribs
                                                can then be faired with regular block planes, spokeshaves and small
                                                5" grinders (as they most assuredly will need some fairing). You can
                                                switch back to stainless staples on the inner laminates once the
                                                staples are not protuding. I would not incorporate fiberglass into
                                                the laminations as the whole job will be plenty messy already. The
                                                glass would add some strength but I don't think you need any more
                                                strength especially if you cold mold or strip plank the hull. By
                                                using this method you can also easily shift each laminate sideways a
                                                bit to help keep the beveled frames inline and then grind off the
                                                steps in the laminates later. It will be much easier if you cut
                                                beveled laminates for the frames with steep bevels. For a 7/8" thick
                                                frame I would suggest using about 5 laminates to prevent spring
                                                back.

                                                The idea of lofting stations so that frames can be laminated outside
                                                of the rib bands will make things very difficult as now you have to
                                                move the stations in about 2 3/8" (figuring 7/8" for the frames and
                                                1.5" for the rib bands) from what has been already dictated in the
                                                plans—that is a time consuming and complicated operation. Like I
                                                said—take it for what you want. This is going to be a challenging
                                                job no matter how it is done—patience will be a virtue. Good luck,
                                                Tom




                                                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                                <gordocutter_1@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that's the
                                                way
                                                > I'll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel
                                                > them later if I would laminated before put them in their places.
                                                > Doing directly on the ribbands I can get the same result if I did
                                                > with the steam bent frame.
                                                >
                                                > Adaucto Mello
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and
                                                > ribbands so
                                                > > the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of
                                                the
                                                > frames
                                                > > should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands.
                                                > Twisting
                                                > > the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up
                                                > after the
                                                > > glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.
                                                > >
                                                > > On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > > ...
                                                > > > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                                                > > > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?
                                                > >
                                                > > --
                                                > > John <jkohnen@>
                                                > > Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                                                > > dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                                                > > describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                                                > > described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                                                > >
                                                >
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