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Re:Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

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  • Scott Brumenschenkel
    Laminating will require more time and expense in materials both lumber and adhesives. It will also be messy. However I believe that it will yield a stronger
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 31, 2008
      Laminating will require more time and expense in materials both lumber and
      adhesives. It will also be messy. However I believe that it will yield a
      stronger and more stable frame per dimension than steam bending. A skilled
      boat builder, with helper and access to appropriate lumber (air dried White
      Oak in my region) could probably steam and bend all those ribs in a day or
      two. You would have a bit of a learning curve but would get the hang of it.
      I don't know the species off hand, but would suspect that you would have an
      appropriate timber for steam bending in Brazil. You might try the Wooden
      boat forum for information concerning technique, I could probably point you
      in the right direction with a little research, or you could go surfing. I
      would guess that the laminated frames would be longer lived, but you
      probably won't have to worry about either in your lifetime.

      Lovely boat the Maid of Endor. I have my eye on Inga. Let me know if I can
      be of any help. I will check encyclopedia of wood for appropriate Brazilian
      species and see if I can pint you in the direction of a steam bending
      article, or one on laminating.

      Peace
    • George C
      The Robelia was built by a professional in the UK. He used 1/2 strip planking with one 3mm veneer lamination and 2 layers of glass. Not sure on the size of
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 31, 2008
        The Robelia was built by a professional in the UK. He used 1/2" strip planking with one 3mm veneer lamination and 2 layers of glass. Not sure on the size of frames, but the photos in the article do give a relative idea. Maybe Gordocutter can contact the builder to get more details. I did a quick google search and found this address.

        EUAN SEEL MARINE SURVEYS LIMITED
        1 Alton Green, Lower Holbrook, Ipswich,
        Suffolk United Kingdom

        If Gordocutter is interested in cold-molding, there is a book by Reuel Parker called The New Cold-Molded Boatbuilding from lofting to launch. There is a chapter on choosing a design and adapting a design. It might help in making some decisions. Here's a link to it:


        http://tinyurl.com/344ffm

        George

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Mike Dolph <johndolph@...>
        To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 5:01:30 PM
        Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

        I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list and I
        think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
        details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at least
        one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam bending
        but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical bending. I
        have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I suspect
        in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
        could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning experience
        for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
        with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some master
        builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM) crowd.
        It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal way; he
        has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge for an
        amateur.

        I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the differences in
        framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes me
        for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat builders
        in the 1920's, it's

        "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard M.
        Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search (set to
        full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some of
        these great old titles really ought to be in the files section here;
        it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
        continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
        Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on that
        one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.

        Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
        that would work for Maid of Endor?

        Mike Dolph

        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1" <gordocutter_ 1@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames versus
        > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of each.
        > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for planking
        > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this decade
        > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would probably be
        > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
        > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for Brazilian
        > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but if I
        > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from those
        > used for laminated frames.
        > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
        >




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      • Kenneth Grome
        ... Cold molding can actually eliminate most or all of the frames, produce a stronger structure overall, and create a nice clean interior that s very easy to
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 31, 2008
          > Laminating will require more time and expense
          > in materials both lumber and adhesives. It will
          > also be messy. However I believe that it will yield
          > a stronger and more stable frame per dimension
          > than steam bending.

          Cold molding can actually eliminate most or all of the frames, produce a
          stronger structure overall, and create a nice clean interior that's
          very easy to maintain and to add furniture to.

          Cold molded hulls are also reported to maintain their value much better
          than other hulls built using wood.

          Sincerely,
          Ken Grome
          Bagacay Boatworks
          www.bagacayboatworks.com
        • Don Douglas
          From my reading on boatbuilding and the discussion of laminated members versus saw or steam-bent frames I think you would be fine keeping the scantlings the
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 31, 2008
            From my reading on boatbuilding and the discussion of laminated members versus saw or steam-bent frames I think you would be fine keeping the scantlings the same as they are now. Especially on a desing like Maid of Endor. On Perigee, John Atkin redrew the lines for strip planking and changed the framing from full steam bent frames on 9" centers to half frames on 30" centers.

            Here are some fuller details of John Atkin's modifications to Perigee drawn in 1988. (my comments in parentheses)

            Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 30" centers (from the scale drawing they only extend up the inside of the hull about 18" from the keel and mounted to the floors)
            Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these appear to be mounted higher than William's original design and the LWL defines the mid point of the ceiling)
            Hanging Knees: one on each side in line with the mast, a one on each side 12" before and aft of these. (they are sided 7/8" regardless of whether they are grown or laminated)
            Inwale: 7/8" x 3" white oak (this runs the full length of the hull and the deck beams set on top.
            Floor timbers: 1 1/8" white oak on 15" centers (so it appears there are floors in between the frames also that the strip planks attach to)
            There are also tie rods of 5/16" bronze rod which tie the carlins to the deck beams to the hull.
            The outside of the strip planking is covered with two layers of 4 oz polyproline impregnated with epoxy.

            Williams Atkin's original scantlings

            Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 9" centers (these extend to the sheer line and fit into notches in the keel)
            Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these are show along the flat of the hull profile below the LWL)
            Clamp: 7/8" x 3" yellow pine (this is mounted to the frames and into knees fore and aft.
            Shelf: 7/8" x 4" yellow pine (mounted on top of the clamp, deck beams are mounted to this)
            Floor timbers: 7/8" white oak on each frame

            Planking on both is 3/4" white cedar

            So this put me into a similar situation as gordocutter and here is what I plan on doing.
            1. Keep frames on original lines but skip every other one. This will give me 18" centers and keep the ones needed for bulkheads.
            Result: more frames than John's specs for strip planking, less than William's carvel planked.
            2. Keep frames full length to sheer and utilize both sheer clamp and shelve as in original design.
            Result: Stiffer hull at top of sheer and across deck.
            3. With full frames I will lower the ceiling strakes back down toward William's original design in order to keep them below interior fixtures like forward storage shelves and main cabin stove and sink counter top.

            Looking back at the Maid of Endor articles and photos, it appears the here also are few full length frames and lots of hanging knees. The spacing looks about what John spec'ed out for Perigee guessing from the relative size of the interior. Most articles/books state that strip planking can eliminate or reduce the need for frames. The nailing together of the planks and the covering of the outside with laminate and epoxy does wonders for strengthing the hull structure as a whole. So my bottom line idea is to laminate my frames from molds made from the lofting. There will be 5 layers to make up the 7/8" final thickness. Once the frames are removed from the molds they will spring back some but this should not be a problem when I fit them. There will by main molds and ribbands setup so the frames should spring back to the designed shape very closely. Or that is what I plan. Then once the strip planks start going on the frames should pull up tightly to the planks nicely.

            Well that is my essay for the night. My wife is wondering why I am not watching "Dancing With The Stars"!
            Don Douglas

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • George C
            Another reason for keeping the frames on a cold-molded hull is for appearance. The laminated frames keep a traditional look on a traditional design! ... From:
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 1, 2008
              Another reason for keeping the frames on a cold-molded hull is for appearance. The laminated frames keep a traditional look on a traditional design!


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Don Douglas <douglashome@...>
              To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 7:53:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [AtkinBoats] Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

              From my reading on boatbuilding and the discussion of laminated members versus saw or steam-bent frames I think you would be fine keeping the scantlings the same as they are now. Especially on a desing like Maid of Endor. On Perigee, John Atkin redrew the lines for strip planking and changed the framing from full steam bent frames on 9" centers to half frames on 30" centers.

              Here are some fuller details of John Atkin's modifications to Perigee drawn in 1988. (my comments in parentheses)

              Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 30" centers (from the scale drawing they only extend up the inside of the hull about 18" from the keel and mounted to the floors)
              Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these appear to be mounted higher than William's original design and the LWL defines the mid point of the ceiling)
              Hanging Knees: one on each side in line with the mast, a one on each side 12" before and aft of these. (they are sided 7/8" regardless of whether they are grown or laminated)
              Inwale: 7/8" x 3" white oak (this runs the full length of the hull and the deck beams set on top.
              Floor timbers: 1 1/8" white oak on 15" centers (so it appears there are floors in between the frames also that the strip planks attach to)
              There are also tie rods of 5/16" bronze rod which tie the carlins to the deck beams to the hull.
              The outside of the strip planking is covered with two layers of 4 oz polyproline impregnated with epoxy.

              Williams Atkin's original scantlings

              Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 9" centers (these extend to the sheer line and fit into notches in the keel)
              Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these are show along the flat of the hull profile below the LWL)
              Clamp: 7/8" x 3" yellow pine (this is mounted to the frames and into knees fore and aft.
              Shelf: 7/8" x 4" yellow pine (mounted on top of the clamp, deck beams are mounted to this)
              Floor timbers: 7/8" white oak on each frame

              Planking on both is 3/4" white cedar

              So this put me into a similar situation as gordocutter and here is what I plan on doing.
              1. Keep frames on original lines but skip every other one. This will give me 18" centers and keep the ones needed for bulkheads.
              Result: more frames than John's specs for strip planking, less than William's carvel planked.
              2. Keep frames full length to sheer and utilize both sheer clamp and shelve as in original design.
              Result: Stiffer hull at top of sheer and across deck.
              3. With full frames I will lower the ceiling strakes back down toward William's original design in order to keep them below interior fixtures like forward storage shelves and main cabin stove and sink counter top.

              Looking back at the Maid of Endor articles and photos, it appears the here also are few full length frames and lots of hanging knees. The spacing looks about what John spec'ed out for Perigee guessing from the relative size of the interior. Most articles/books state that strip planking can eliminate or reduce the need for frames. The nailing together of the planks and the covering of the outside with laminate and epoxy does wonders for strengthing the hull structure as a whole. So my bottom line idea is to laminate my frames from molds made from the lofting. There will be 5 layers to make up the 7/8" final thickness. Once the frames are removed from the molds they will spring back some but this should not be a problem when I fit them. There will by main molds and ribbands setup so the frames should spring back to the designed shape very closely. Or that is what I plan. Then once the strip planks start going on the frames should pull up tightly
              to the planks nicely.

              Well that is my essay for the night. My wife is wondering why I am not watching "Dancing With The Stars"!
              Don Douglas

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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            • gordocutter_1
              Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you re enjoying it! I m starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I m going to stick with the
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
                Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying it!
                I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to make
                the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to make
                this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose in a
                lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all the
                support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info that
                you give came to be very handful for me.
                To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I thinking
                in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you think
                about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                resistance.
                Thanks .

                Adaucto.


                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list and I
                > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
                > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at least
                > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                bending
                > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                bending. I
                > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                suspect
                > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
                > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning experience
                > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
                > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                master
                > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                crowd.
                > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                way; he
                > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge for
                an
                > amateur.
                >
                > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                differences in
                > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes
                me
                > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                builders
                > in the 1920's, it's
                >
                > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard M.
                > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search (set
                to
                > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some of
                > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                here;
                > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
                > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
                > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on
                that
                > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                >
                > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
                > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                >
                > Mike Dolph
                >
                > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1" <gordocutter_1@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                versus
                > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                each.
                > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                planking
                > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                decade
                > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                probably be
                > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                Brazilian
                > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                if I
                > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                those
                > > used for laminated frames.
                > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                > >
                >
              • gordocutter_1
                Hi there Don! Thanks for the tips, your plans are very similar to the Maid of Endor, the frames are also 7/8 x 7/8 , and they are 9 1/4 centers but I m
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
                  Hi there Don! Thanks for the tips, your plans are very similar to
                  the Maid of Endor, the frames are also 7/8" x 7/8", and they are 9
                  1/4'' centers but I'm thinking in doing all of them, with the same
                  centers and with laminated frames, like I was saying to Mike, I
                  would like to build with steam bent frames but it's a "little" to
                  hard for me, for the spring back problem somebody in Brazil of
                  another group of boat builders has told me that you could overcome
                  this problem by putting long and thin parts of fiberglass between
                  the veneers, that could also add some resistance to the frame, what
                  you think about it?
                  Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                  using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?

                  Cheers
                  Adaucto


                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > From my reading on boatbuilding and the discussion of laminated
                  members versus saw or steam-bent frames I think you would be fine
                  keeping the scantlings the same as they are now. Especially on a
                  desing like Maid of Endor. On Perigee, John Atkin redrew the lines
                  for strip planking and changed the framing from full steam bent
                  frames on 9" centers to half frames on 30" centers.
                  >
                  > Here are some fuller details of John Atkin's modifications to
                  Perigee drawn in 1988. (my comments in parentheses)
                  >
                  > Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 30" centers (from the scale
                  drawing they only extend up the inside of the hull about 18" from
                  the keel and mounted to the floors)
                  > Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these appear to be
                  mounted higher than William's original design and the LWL defines
                  the mid point of the ceiling)
                  > Hanging Knees: one on each side in line with the mast, a one on
                  each side 12" before and aft of these. (they are sided 7/8"
                  regardless of whether they are grown or laminated)
                  > Inwale: 7/8" x 3" white oak (this runs the full length of the
                  hull and the deck beams set on top.
                  > Floor timbers: 1 1/8" white oak on 15" centers (so it appears
                  there are floors in between the frames also that the strip planks
                  attach to)
                  > There are also tie rods of 5/16" bronze rod which tie the carlins
                  to the deck beams to the hull.
                  > The outside of the strip planking is covered with two layers of 4
                  oz polyproline impregnated with epoxy.
                  >
                  > Williams Atkin's original scantlings
                  >
                  > Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 9" centers (these extend to the
                  sheer line and fit into notches in the keel)
                  > Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these are show
                  along the flat of the hull profile below the LWL)
                  > Clamp: 7/8" x 3" yellow pine (this is mounted to the frames and
                  into knees fore and aft.
                  > Shelf: 7/8" x 4" yellow pine (mounted on top of the clamp, deck
                  beams are mounted to this)
                  > Floor timbers: 7/8" white oak on each frame
                  >
                  > Planking on both is 3/4" white cedar
                  >
                  > So this put me into a similar situation as gordocutter and here is
                  what I plan on doing.
                  > 1. Keep frames on original lines but skip every other one. This
                  will give me 18" centers and keep the ones needed for bulkheads.
                  > Result: more frames than John's specs for strip planking,
                  less than William's carvel planked.
                  > 2. Keep frames full length to sheer and utilize both sheer clamp
                  and shelve as in original design.
                  > Result: Stiffer hull at top of sheer and across deck.
                  > 3. With full frames I will lower the ceiling strakes back down
                  toward William's original design in order to keep them below
                  interior fixtures like forward storage shelves and main cabin stove
                  and sink counter top.
                  >
                  > Looking back at the Maid of Endor articles and photos, it appears
                  the here also are few full length frames and lots of hanging knees.
                  The spacing looks about what John spec'ed out for Perigee guessing
                  from the relative size of the interior. Most articles/books state
                  that strip planking can eliminate or reduce the need for frames.
                  The nailing together of the planks and the covering of the outside
                  with laminate and epoxy does wonders for strengthing the hull
                  structure as a whole. So my bottom line idea is to laminate my
                  frames from molds made from the lofting. There will be 5 layers to
                  make up the 7/8" final thickness. Once the frames are removed from
                  the molds they will spring back some but this should not be a
                  problem when I fit them. There will by main molds and ribbands
                  setup so the frames should spring back to the designed shape very
                  closely. Or that is what I plan. Then once the strip planks start
                  going on the frames should pull up tightly to the planks nicely.
                  >
                  > Well that is my essay for the night. My wife is wondering why I
                  am not watching "Dancing With The Stars"!
                  > Don Douglas
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • gordocutter_1
                  Hi George ! I also made the same google search for find some site of the builder but all that I found was that address, didn t help me very much cause it
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
                    Hi George ! I also made the same google search for find some site of
                    the builder but all that I found was that address, didn't help me
                    very much cause it doesn't have even a phone number, even if it was
                    he is in England so… the phone bill would be astronomic.
                    But I was very interest by the book that you wrote about, and I'm
                    about to search it now, thanks very much.

                    Adaucto


                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, George C <glcost2@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The Robelia was built by a professional in the UK. He used 1/2"
                    strip planking with one 3mm veneer lamination and 2 layers of glass.
                    Not sure on the size of frames, but the photos in the article do
                    give a relative idea. Maybe Gordocutter can contact the builder to
                    get more details. I did a quick google search and found this address.
                    >
                    > EUAN SEEL MARINE SURVEYS LIMITED
                    > 1 Alton Green, Lower Holbrook, Ipswich,
                    > Suffolk United Kingdom
                    >
                    > If Gordocutter is interested in cold-molding, there is a book by
                    Reuel Parker called The New Cold-Molded Boatbuilding from lofting to
                    launch. There is a chapter on choosing a design and adapting a
                    design. It might help in making some decisions. Here's a link to it:
                    >
                    >
                    > http://tinyurl.com/344ffm
                    >
                    > George
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message ----
                    > From: Mike Dolph <johndolph@...>
                    > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 5:01:30 PM
                    > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames
                    >
                    > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian
                    Yahoo list and I
                    > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
                    > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at least
                    > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                    bending
                    > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                    bending. I
                    > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                    suspect
                    > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
                    > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning experience
                    > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
                    > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                    master
                    > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                    crowd.
                    > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                    way; he
                    > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge for
                    an
                    > amateur.
                    >
                    > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                    differences in
                    > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes
                    me
                    > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                    builders
                    > in the 1920's, it's
                    >
                    > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard M.
                    > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search (set
                    to
                    > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some of
                    > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                    here;
                    > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
                    > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
                    > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on
                    that
                    > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                    >
                    > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
                    > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                    >
                    > Mike Dolph
                    >
                    > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1" <gordocutter_
                    1@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                    versus
                    > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                    each.
                    > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                    planking
                    > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                    decade
                    > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                    probably be
                    > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                    > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                    Brazilian
                    > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                    if I
                    > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                    those
                    > > used for laminated frames.
                    > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > <!--
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                    _____________________________________________________________________
                    _______________
                    > No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal
                    for Yahoo! users and friends.
                    > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text1.com
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • gordocutter_1
                    Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very interested, I m now thinking in building with laminated frames. ... page ... frames ... of ... and ... versus ...
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
                      Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very interested, I'm now
                      thinking in building with laminated frames.
                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "glcost2" <glcost2@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Have you read the 2 articles at the bottom of the Maid of Endor
                      page
                      > on Atkinboatplans.com. Both are on Robella which has laminated
                      frames
                      > and cold-molded hull. The articles don't mention the pros or cons
                      of
                      > laminated frames, but are very good reading on a non-traditional
                      and
                      > successful build.
                      >
                      > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1" <gordocutter_1@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                      versus
                      > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                      each.
                      > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                      planking
                      > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                      decade
                      > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                      probably be
                      > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                      > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                      Brazilian
                      > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                      if I
                      > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                      those
                      > > used for laminated frames.
                      > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                      > >
                      >
                    • George C
                      Gordocutter, The tinyurl link below will take you to the book. There are many pages that you can read. http://tinyurl.com/344ffm George ... From: gordocutter_1
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
                        Gordocutter,

                        The tinyurl link below will take you to the book. There are many pages that you can read.
                        http://tinyurl.com/344ffm

                        George


                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: gordocutter_1 <gordocutter_1@...>
                        To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:01:57 PM
                        Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

                        Hi George ! I also made the same google search for find some site of
                        the builder but all that I found was that address, didn't help me
                        very much cause it doesn't have even a phone number, even if it was
                        he is in England so� the phone bill would be astronomic.
                        But I was very interest by the book that you wrote about, and I'm
                        about to search it now, thanks very much.

                        Adaucto

                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, George C <glcost2@... > wrote:
                        >
                        > The Robelia was built by a professional in the UK. He used 1/2"
                        strip planking with one 3mm veneer lamination and 2 layers of glass.
                        Not sure on the size of frames, but the photos in the article do
                        give a relative idea. Maybe Gordocutter can contact the builder to
                        get more details. I did a quick google search and found this address.
                        >
                        > EUAN SEEL MARINE SURVEYS LIMITED
                        > 1 Alton Green, Lower Holbrook, Ipswich,
                        > Suffolk United Kingdom
                        >
                        > If Gordocutter is interested in cold-molding, there is a book by
                        Reuel Parker called The New Cold-Molded Boatbuilding from lofting to
                        launch. There is a chapter on choosing a design and adapting a
                        design. It might help in making some decisions. Here's a link to it:
                        >
                        >
                        > http://tinyurl. com/344ffm
                        >
                        > George
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: Mike Dolph <johndolph@. ..>
                        > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com
                        > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 5:01:30 PM
                        > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames
                        >
                        > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian
                        Yahoo list and I
                        > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
                        > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at least
                        > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                        bending
                        > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                        bending. I
                        > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                        suspect
                        > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
                        > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning experience
                        > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
                        > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                        master
                        > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                        crowd.
                        > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                        way; he
                        > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge for
                        an
                        > amateur.
                        >
                        > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                        differences in
                        > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes
                        me
                        > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                        builders
                        > in the 1920's, it's
                        >
                        > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard M.
                        > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search (set
                        to
                        > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some of
                        > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                        here;
                        > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
                        > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
                        > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on
                        that
                        > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                        >
                        > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
                        > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                        >
                        > Mike Dolph
                        >
                        > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1" <gordocutter_
                        1@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                        versus
                        > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                        each.
                        > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                        planking
                        > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                        decade
                        > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                        probably be
                        > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                        > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                        Brazilian
                        > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                        if I
                        > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                        those
                        > > used for laminated frames.
                        > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > <!--
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                      • George C
                        Gordocutter, At the bottom the article (don t remember which one), there is an email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him with
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
                          Gordocutter,

                          At the bottom the article (don't remember which one), there is an email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him with questions.

                          George


                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: gordocutter_1 <gordocutter_1@...>
                          To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:07:24 PM
                          Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

                          Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very interested, I'm now
                          thinking in building with laminated frames.
                          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "glcost2" <glcost2@... > wrote:
                          >
                          > Have you read the 2 articles at the bottom of the Maid of Endor
                          page
                          > on Atkinboatplans. com. Both are on Robella which has laminated
                          frames
                          > and cold-molded hull. The articles don't mention the pros or cons
                          of
                          > laminated frames, but are very good reading on a non-traditional
                          and
                          > successful build.
                          >
                          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1" <gordocutter_ 1@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                          versus
                          > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                          each.
                          > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                          planking
                          > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                          decade
                          > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                          probably be
                          > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                          > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                          Brazilian
                          > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                          if I
                          > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                          those
                          > > used for laminated frames.
                          > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                          > >
                          >




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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • gordocutter_1
                          There is? I didn t notice! Will check right now, don t now how this pass by me, thanks! ... email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 3, 2008
                            There is? I didn't notice! Will check right now, don't now how this
                            pass by me, thanks!

                            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, George C <glcost2@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Gordocutter,
                            >
                            > At the bottom the article (don't remember which one), there is an
                            email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him
                            with questions.
                            >
                            > George
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message ----
                            > From: gordocutter_1 <gordocutter_1@...>
                            > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:07:24 PM
                            > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames
                            >
                            > Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very
                            interested, I'm now
                            > thinking in building with laminated frames.
                            > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "glcost2" <glcost2@ > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Have you read the 2 articles at the bottom of the Maid of Endor
                            > page
                            > > on Atkinboatplans. com. Both are on Robella which has laminated
                            > frames
                            > > and cold-molded hull. The articles don't mention the pros or
                            cons
                            > of
                            > > laminated frames, but are very good reading on a non-traditional
                            > and
                            > > successful build.
                            > >
                            > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1"
                            <gordocutter_ 1@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                            > versus
                            > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                            > each.
                            > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                            > planking
                            > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                            > decade
                            > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                            > probably be
                            > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                            > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                            > Brazilian
                            > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
                            but
                            > if I
                            > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                            > those
                            > > > used for laminated frames.
                            > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Mike Dolph
                            Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was as long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My former marriage to a
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 3, 2008
                              Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was as
                              long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My former
                              marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
                              there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after so
                              many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
                              income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
                              being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be more
                              than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
                              frames and structural members John Atkins specified.

                              I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
                              some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but there
                              are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
                              different woods.

                              I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch by
                              discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country of
                              my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not officially.

                              Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph

                              I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
                              and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.

                              Mike Dolph

                              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                              <gordocutter_1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
                              it!
                              > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                              > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
                              make
                              > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to make
                              > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose in a
                              > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all the
                              > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info that
                              > you give came to be very handful for me.
                              > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I thinking
                              > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
                              think
                              > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                              > resistance.
                              > Thanks .
                              >
                              > Adaucto.
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list and I
                              > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
                              > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
                              least
                              > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                              > bending
                              > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                              > bending. I
                              > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                              > suspect
                              > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
                              > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
                              experience
                              > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
                              > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                              > master
                              > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                              > crowd.
                              > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                              > way; he
                              > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
                              for
                              > an
                              > > amateur.
                              > >
                              > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                              > differences in
                              > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes
                              > me
                              > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                              > builders
                              > > in the 1920's, it's
                              > >
                              > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard
                              M.
                              > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
                              (set
                              > to
                              > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some
                              of
                              > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                              > here;
                              > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
                              > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
                              > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on
                              > that
                              > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                              > >
                              > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
                              > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                              > >
                              > > Mike Dolph
                              > >
                              > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                              <gordocutter_1@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                              > versus
                              > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                              > each.
                              > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                              > planking
                              > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                              > decade
                              > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                              > probably be
                              > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                              > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                              > Brazilian
                              > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                              > if I
                              > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                              > those
                              > > > used for laminated frames.
                              > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Don Douglas
                              Aduacto, I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to my list of ideas
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 3, 2008
                                Aduacto,

                                I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the wood layers?

                                Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that. Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.

                                As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and spokeshaves sharp.

                                Anyway that's the plan
                                Don Douglas




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Mike Dolph
                                Douglas, I don t want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this in mind. I
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 4, 2008
                                  Douglas,

                                  I don't want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built
                                  a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this
                                  in mind.

                                  I don't remember having read of a strict order for considering lines
                                  in lofting corrections but on giving it some thought I would try this
                                  and call it my best effort. I'd fair all the initial lines such as
                                  sheer, keel, profile and plan lines the architect would have done
                                  first. Then an architect would draw in three stations of
                                  approximately the displacement he wants but I would give emphasis to
                                  diagonals in lofting since he would have gone through several
                                  iterations of that to get his drawings and what I mainly want to
                                  achieve is a smooth, surface for planking and waterflow. Once
                                  diagonals were fair, I'd work the changes into the stations trying to
                                  leave the sheer and keel alone and, if at all possible, the rabbet as
                                  drawn. This seems to me to make the boat fair and doable with the
                                  least necessary changes to the architects intent.

                                  This describes more changes than you would probably actually have to
                                  decide on. I would certainly like to hear yours or anyone else's
                                  priorities in lofting as well. In the end you have to decide, since
                                  the Atkin's aren't there it's up to you to "skin this cat".

                                  Mike Dolph

                                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Aduacto,
                                  >

                                  > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                                  gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                                  draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                                  try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                                  fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                                  correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything
                                  to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is
                                  very different from how it was done 75 years ago.
                                  > Don Douglas
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Tim & Kris
                                  A few comments: 1.) A properly laminated frame is about 3/4 again stronger than a similarly dimensioned steam bent frame of the same material. 2.) Watch what
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 4, 2008
                                    A few comments:

                                    1.) A properly laminated frame is about 3/4 again stronger than a
                                    similarly dimensioned steam bent frame of the same material.

                                    2.) Watch what you use; both adhesives and wood. High oil content wood
                                    or wood with tyloses (i.e. teak, ipe, or white oak) don't laminate
                                    correctly unless it's done in a very controlled manner, and even then
                                    it's up for debate. Your adhesive choices are pretty much epoxy,
                                    resourcinal, or Polyurethane (non-foaming).

                                    3.) Lofting a boat where the table of offsets was derived from the
                                    drawings is a bit of a best fit exercise. Use good battens and work
                                    for the fairest line and you should be okay.

                                    4.) If your planning on cold molding, the frames are pretty much there
                                    for show when it's all said and done. I don't think this is
                                    necessarily a bad thing as having a hull be too strong is okay with
                                    me, and the interior room lost is minimal.

                                    Tim



                                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Douglas,
                                    >
                                    > I don't want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built
                                    > a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this
                                    > in mind.
                                    >
                                    > I don't remember having read of a strict order for considering lines
                                    > in lofting corrections but on giving it some thought I would try this
                                    > and call it my best effort. I'd fair all the initial lines such as
                                    > sheer, keel, profile and plan lines the architect would have done
                                    > first. Then an architect would draw in three stations of
                                    > approximately the displacement he wants but I would give emphasis to
                                    > diagonals in lofting since he would have gone through several
                                    > iterations of that to get his drawings and what I mainly want to
                                    > achieve is a smooth, surface for planking and waterflow. Once
                                    > diagonals were fair, I'd work the changes into the stations trying to
                                    > leave the sheer and keel alone and, if at all possible, the rabbet as
                                    > drawn. This seems to me to make the boat fair and doable with the
                                    > least necessary changes to the architects intent.
                                    >
                                    > This describes more changes than you would probably actually have to
                                    > decide on. I would certainly like to hear yours or anyone else's
                                    > priorities in lofting as well. In the end you have to decide, since
                                    > the Atkin's aren't there it's up to you to "skin this cat".
                                    >
                                    > Mike Dolph
                                    >
                                    > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Aduacto,
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                                    > gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                                    > draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                                    > try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                                    > fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                                    > correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything
                                    > to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is
                                    > very different from how it was done 75 years ago.
                                    > > Don Douglas
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • gordocutter_1
                                    Hi Douglas! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems, and I was trying to contact the guy ho told me about the laminated
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
                                      Hi Douglas! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to
                                      solve some problems, and I was trying to contact the guy ho told me
                                      about the laminated technique, and ask him about your questions,
                                      still didn't get a answer. Sadly I can not answer your questions
                                      about the weight of the cloth, or how it would look like the ended
                                      product, but I do have some clues about it:
                                      The frames are thin so, I suspect that they don't need too much
                                      strength to hold the spring back, I was thinking that one layer of
                                      fiberglass between four layers of wood can be enough to hold them, I
                                      think that the strength of the epoxi combine with the one layer of
                                      fiber can do the job properly, and if its stay between two layers
                                      of wood it would not be very visualize in the final product .
                                      For example four layers off wood with 3/16" and one layer between
                                      them of 1/8" fiberglass. That is how I think would work. If you put
                                      a layer of fiber between each layer of wood you would have to reduce
                                      the thickness of the wood in order to get the same dimensions of the
                                      frame (7/8") and the fiberglass would be more visualize if you do
                                      that way. When I get the answer of the guy that told me the tip, I
                                      keep you informed.

                                      Cheers
                                      Adaucto


                                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Aduacto,
                                      >
                                      > I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the
                                      wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to
                                      my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between
                                      each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final
                                      laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look
                                      like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another
                                      question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the
                                      wood layers?
                                      >
                                      > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                                      gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                                      draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                                      try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                                      fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                                      correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required
                                      everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets
                                      format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did
                                      make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that.
                                      Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast
                                      that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has
                                      all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-
                                      stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms
                                      up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.
                                      >
                                      > As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems
                                      to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the
                                      strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line
                                      them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold
                                      patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used
                                      to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that
                                      would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to
                                      incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that
                                      is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of
                                      the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to
                                      the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands
                                      start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard
                                      to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and
                                      spokeshaves sharp.
                                      >
                                      > Anyway that's the plan
                                      > Don Douglas
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • gordocutter_1
                                      Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don t understand why you can not.
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
                                        Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve
                                        some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don't
                                        understand why you can not. I'm surprised that you have a Brazilian
                                        kid, when you get any vacations here let me know; maybe we can do
                                        some "live" chat about boats. I'm glad too that I found a way for
                                        the construction. As for the wood, eucalyptus is not the final
                                        decision is just a study option, I'm open for others, but I'm still
                                        searching, I already talk with the suppliers of the lyptus in order
                                        to get some samples for doing some experiments with, lets see what's
                                        going to be…
                                        Cheers

                                        Adaucto



                                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was
                                        as
                                        > long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My
                                        former
                                        > marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
                                        > there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after
                                        so
                                        > many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
                                        > income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
                                        > being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be
                                        more
                                        > than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
                                        > frames and structural members John Atkins specified.
                                        >
                                        > I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
                                        > some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but
                                        there
                                        > are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
                                        > different woods.
                                        >
                                        > I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch
                                        by
                                        > discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country
                                        of
                                        > my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not
                                        officially.
                                        >
                                        > Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph
                                        >
                                        > I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
                                        > and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.
                                        >
                                        > Mike Dolph
                                        >
                                        > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                        > <gordocutter_1@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
                                        > it!
                                        > > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                                        > > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
                                        > make
                                        > > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to
                                        make
                                        > > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose
                                        in a
                                        > > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all
                                        the
                                        > > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info
                                        that
                                        > > you give came to be very handful for me.
                                        > > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I
                                        thinking
                                        > > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
                                        > think
                                        > > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                                        > > resistance.
                                        > > Thanks .
                                        > >
                                        > > Adaucto.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list
                                        and I
                                        > > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and
                                        framing
                                        > > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
                                        > least
                                        > > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                                        > > bending
                                        > > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                                        > > bending. I
                                        > > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                                        > > suspect
                                        > > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer
                                        it
                                        > > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
                                        > experience
                                        > > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better
                                        off
                                        > > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                                        > > master
                                        > > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                                        > > crowd.
                                        > > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                                        > > way; he
                                        > > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
                                        > for
                                        > > an
                                        > > > amateur.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                                        > > differences in
                                        > > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term
                                        escapes
                                        > > me
                                        > > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                                        > > builders
                                        > > > in the 1920's, it's
                                        > > >
                                        > > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by
                                        Richard
                                        > M.
                                        > > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
                                        > (set
                                        > > to
                                        > > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and
                                        some
                                        > of
                                        > > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                                        > > here;
                                        > > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this
                                        will
                                        > > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat
                                        Building" by
                                        > > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations
                                        on
                                        > > that
                                        > > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone
                                        details
                                        > > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Mike Dolph
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                        > <gordocutter_1@>
                                        > > > wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                                        > > versus
                                        > > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages
                                        of
                                        > > each.
                                        > > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified
                                        for
                                        > > planking
                                        > > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in
                                        this
                                        > > decade
                                        > > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                                        > > probably be
                                        > > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never
                                        now.
                                        > > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                                        > > Brazilian
                                        > > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
                                        but
                                        > > if I
                                        > > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different
                                        from
                                        > > those
                                        > > > > used for laminated frames.
                                        > > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • gordocutter_1
                                        Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don t understand why you can not.
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
                                          Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve
                                          some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don't
                                          understand why you can not. I'm surprised that you have a Brazilian
                                          kid, when you get any vacations here let me know maybe we can do
                                          some "live" chat about boats. I'm glad too that I found a way for
                                          the construction. As for the wood, eucalyptus is not the final
                                          decision is just a study option, I'm open for others, but I'm still
                                          searching, I already talk with the suppliers of the lyptus in order
                                          to get some samples for doing some experiments with, lets see what's
                                          going to be…
                                          Cheers

                                          Adaucto



                                          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was
                                          as
                                          > long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My
                                          former
                                          > marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
                                          > there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after
                                          so
                                          > many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
                                          > income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
                                          > being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be
                                          more
                                          > than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
                                          > frames and structural members John Atkins specified.
                                          >
                                          > I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
                                          > some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but
                                          there
                                          > are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
                                          > different woods.
                                          >
                                          > I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch
                                          by
                                          > discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country
                                          of
                                          > my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not
                                          officially.
                                          >
                                          > Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph
                                          >
                                          > I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
                                          > and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.
                                          >
                                          > Mike Dolph
                                          >
                                          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                          > <gordocutter_1@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
                                          > it!
                                          > > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                                          > > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
                                          > make
                                          > > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to
                                          make
                                          > > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose
                                          in a
                                          > > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all
                                          the
                                          > > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info
                                          that
                                          > > you give came to be very handful for me.
                                          > > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I
                                          thinking
                                          > > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
                                          > think
                                          > > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                                          > > resistance.
                                          > > Thanks .
                                          > >
                                          > > Adaucto.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
                                          > > wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list
                                          and I
                                          > > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and
                                          framing
                                          > > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
                                          > least
                                          > > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                                          > > bending
                                          > > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                                          > > bending. I
                                          > > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                                          > > suspect
                                          > > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer
                                          it
                                          > > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
                                          > experience
                                          > > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better
                                          off
                                          > > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                                          > > master
                                          > > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                                          > > crowd.
                                          > > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                                          > > way; he
                                          > > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
                                          > for
                                          > > an
                                          > > > amateur.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                                          > > differences in
                                          > > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term
                                          escapes
                                          > > me
                                          > > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                                          > > builders
                                          > > > in the 1920's, it's
                                          > > >
                                          > > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by
                                          Richard
                                          > M.
                                          > > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
                                          > (set
                                          > > to
                                          > > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and
                                          some
                                          > of
                                          > > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                                          > > here;
                                          > > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this
                                          will
                                          > > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat
                                          Building" by
                                          > > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations
                                          on
                                          > > that
                                          > > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone
                                          details
                                          > > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Mike Dolph
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                          > <gordocutter_1@>
                                          > > > wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                                          > > versus
                                          > > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages
                                          of
                                          > > each.
                                          > > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified
                                          for
                                          > > planking
                                          > > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in
                                          this
                                          > > decade
                                          > > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                                          > > probably be
                                          > > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never
                                          now.
                                          > > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                                          > > Brazilian
                                          > > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
                                          but
                                          > > if I
                                          > > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different
                                          from
                                          > > those
                                          > > > > used for laminated frames.
                                          > > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • gordocutter_1
                                          Hi Don! I just read the answer, of the friend that told me about the tip, and you re right about the way to go, the layers are intercalated one of wood one of
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
                                            Hi Don! I just read the answer, of the friend that told me about the
                                            tip, and you're right about the way to go, the layers are
                                            intercalated one of wood one of fiber but it can be less of fiber
                                            than wood for example 4 layers of wood (would be like 5 mm for a
                                            7/8" frame ) and two or three of fiber, the final appearance would
                                            be like a thicker glue between the layers of wood, I think this
                                            could look nice for a bright work. He didn't told me the weight of
                                            the fiber just what kind of it, unidirectional fiber, here in Brazil
                                            we buying this kind of fiber in "roles" (don't now if is the right
                                            word), I'm getting some samples of eucalyptus in order to do some
                                            test with the wood for frames and I will use this method, when I do
                                            will show you some photos of the result, hope I helped!

                                            Adaucto


                                            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Aduacto,
                                            >
                                            > I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the
                                            wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to
                                            my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between
                                            each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final
                                            laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look
                                            like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another
                                            question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the
                                            wood layers?
                                            >
                                            > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                                            gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                                            draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                                            try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                                            fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                                            correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required
                                            everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets
                                            format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did
                                            make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that.
                                            Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast
                                            that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has
                                            all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-
                                            stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms
                                            up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.
                                            >
                                            > As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems
                                            to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the
                                            strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line
                                            them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold
                                            patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used
                                            to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that
                                            would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to
                                            incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that
                                            is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of
                                            the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to
                                            the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands
                                            start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard
                                            to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and
                                            spokeshaves sharp.
                                            >
                                            > Anyway that's the plan
                                            > Don Douglas
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                          • John Kohnen
                                            Laminated frames will work fine. They ll be stronger than steam-bent frames, but a lot more work. Just about every older bent-frame boat has had some broken
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Apr 10, 2008
                                              Laminated frames will work fine. They'll be stronger than steam-bent
                                              frames, but a lot more work. Just about every older bent-frame boat has
                                              had some broken ribs... Steam-bent frames are quick and easy to install
                                              though, and the boats so built last well enough.

                                              Be sure to use wood that takes gluing well. A few weeks ago I saw a
                                              (formerly) laminated stem that came out of a boat built in the 1980s,
                                              IIRC. NONE of the laminations were still glued together! The wood was oak;
                                              I don't know what the glue was, but I've heard much about epoxy and oak
                                              not getting along. If you use planking fasteners that penetrate all the
                                              laminations -- rivets would be best -- you'll have some insurance in case
                                              the adhesive fails.

                                              Don't get to worked up about spring back. You should set the boat up so
                                              that the frames are held in their intended curve when installed. They'll
                                              spring back a little when they come off the mold, but when you install
                                              them on the boat you can bend them back into shape and hold them with
                                              battens, cross spalls, etc. Steam-bent frames spring back too, but it
                                              doesn't matter because held to the proper shape when installed. Forget the
                                              fiberglass between laminations, you won't need it.

                                              On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:25:54 -0700, Adaucto wrote:

                                              > ...
                                              > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                                              > going to stick with the laminated one,
                                              > ...
                                              > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I thinking
                                              > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you think
                                              > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                                              > resistance.

                                              --
                                              John <jkohnen@...>
                                              The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
                                              alarmed -- and hence clamorous to be led to safety -- by
                                              menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them
                                              imaginary. <H. L. Mencken>
                                            • John Kohnen
                                              I think that s what I d do. I d probably set up the molds and ribbands so the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the frames should be,
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Apr 10, 2008
                                                I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and ribbands so
                                                the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the frames
                                                should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands. Twisting
                                                the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up after the
                                                glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.

                                                On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:

                                                > ...
                                                > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                                                > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?

                                                --
                                                John <jkohnen@...>
                                                Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                                                dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                                                describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                                                described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                                              • gordocutter_1
                                                Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that s the way I ll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel them later if I would
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Apr 12, 2008
                                                  Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that's the way
                                                  I'll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel
                                                  them later if I would laminated before put them in their places.
                                                  Doing directly on the ribbands I can get the same result if I did
                                                  with the steam bent frame.

                                                  Adaucto Mello


                                                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and
                                                  ribbands so
                                                  > the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the
                                                  frames
                                                  > should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands.
                                                  Twisting
                                                  > the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up
                                                  after the
                                                  > glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.
                                                  >
                                                  > On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > ...
                                                  > > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                                                  > > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?
                                                  >
                                                  > --
                                                  > John <jkohnen@...>
                                                  > Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                                                  > dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                                                  > describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                                                  > described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                                                  >
                                                • Tom Hesselink
                                                  Let me suggest another method for laminating frames. You can take it for what you will. Get a plastic staple gun from www.raptornails.com (the staples are
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Apr 12, 2008
                                                    Let me suggest another method for laminating frames. You can take it
                                                    for what you will.

                                                    Get a plastic staple gun from www.raptornails.com (the staples are
                                                    plastic, not the gun) and staple the laminates directly to the inside
                                                    of the rib bands. Of course you had better heavily wax the rib bands
                                                    first but then you will be able to just grind off the protruding
                                                    staples after the epoxy has set and the rib bands removed. The ribs
                                                    can then be faired with regular block planes, spokeshaves and small
                                                    5" grinders (as they most assuredly will need some fairing). You can
                                                    switch back to stainless staples on the inner laminates once the
                                                    staples are not protuding. I would not incorporate fiberglass into
                                                    the laminations as the whole job will be plenty messy already. The
                                                    glass would add some strength but I don't think you need any more
                                                    strength especially if you cold mold or strip plank the hull. By
                                                    using this method you can also easily shift each laminate sideways a
                                                    bit to help keep the beveled frames inline and then grind off the
                                                    steps in the laminates later. It will be much easier if you cut
                                                    beveled laminates for the frames with steep bevels. For a 7/8" thick
                                                    frame I would suggest using about 5 laminates to prevent spring
                                                    back.

                                                    The idea of lofting stations so that frames can be laminated outside
                                                    of the rib bands will make things very difficult as now you have to
                                                    move the stations in about 2 3/8" (figuring 7/8" for the frames and
                                                    1.5" for the rib bands) from what has been already dictated in the
                                                    plans—that is a time consuming and complicated operation. Like I
                                                    said—take it for what you want. This is going to be a challenging
                                                    job no matter how it is done—patience will be a virtue. Good luck,
                                                    Tom




                                                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                                    <gordocutter_1@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that's the
                                                    way
                                                    > I'll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel
                                                    > them later if I would laminated before put them in their places.
                                                    > Doing directly on the ribbands I can get the same result if I did
                                                    > with the steam bent frame.
                                                    >
                                                    > Adaucto Mello
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and
                                                    > ribbands so
                                                    > > the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of
                                                    the
                                                    > frames
                                                    > > should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands.
                                                    > Twisting
                                                    > > the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up
                                                    > after the
                                                    > > glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > > ...
                                                    > > > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                                                    > > > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --
                                                    > > John <jkohnen@>
                                                    > > Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                                                    > > dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                                                    > > describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                                                    > > described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                                                    > >
                                                    >
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