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Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

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  • Mike Dolph
    I ve been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list and I think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing details for laminated
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 31 5:01 PM
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      I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list and I
      think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
      details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at least
      one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam bending
      but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical bending. I
      have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I suspect
      in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
      could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning experience
      for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
      with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some master
      builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM) crowd.
      It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal way; he
      has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge for an
      amateur.

      I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the differences in
      framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes me
      for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat builders
      in the 1920's, it's

      "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard M.
      Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search (set to
      full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some of
      these great old titles really ought to be in the files section here;
      it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
      continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
      Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on that
      one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.

      Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
      that would work for Maid of Endor?

      Mike Dolph

      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1" <gordocutter_1@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames versus
      > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of each.
      > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for planking
      > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this decade
      > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would probably be
      > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
      > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for Brazilian
      > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but if I
      > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from those
      > used for laminated frames.
      > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
      >
    • Scott Brumenschenkel
      Laminating will require more time and expense in materials both lumber and adhesives. It will also be messy. However I believe that it will yield a stronger
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 31 5:46 PM
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        Laminating will require more time and expense in materials both lumber and
        adhesives. It will also be messy. However I believe that it will yield a
        stronger and more stable frame per dimension than steam bending. A skilled
        boat builder, with helper and access to appropriate lumber (air dried White
        Oak in my region) could probably steam and bend all those ribs in a day or
        two. You would have a bit of a learning curve but would get the hang of it.
        I don't know the species off hand, but would suspect that you would have an
        appropriate timber for steam bending in Brazil. You might try the Wooden
        boat forum for information concerning technique, I could probably point you
        in the right direction with a little research, or you could go surfing. I
        would guess that the laminated frames would be longer lived, but you
        probably won't have to worry about either in your lifetime.

        Lovely boat the Maid of Endor. I have my eye on Inga. Let me know if I can
        be of any help. I will check encyclopedia of wood for appropriate Brazilian
        species and see if I can pint you in the direction of a steam bending
        article, or one on laminating.

        Peace
      • George C
        The Robelia was built by a professional in the UK. He used 1/2 strip planking with one 3mm veneer lamination and 2 layers of glass. Not sure on the size of
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 31 6:30 PM
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          The Robelia was built by a professional in the UK. He used 1/2" strip planking with one 3mm veneer lamination and 2 layers of glass. Not sure on the size of frames, but the photos in the article do give a relative idea. Maybe Gordocutter can contact the builder to get more details. I did a quick google search and found this address.

          EUAN SEEL MARINE SURVEYS LIMITED
          1 Alton Green, Lower Holbrook, Ipswich,
          Suffolk United Kingdom

          If Gordocutter is interested in cold-molding, there is a book by Reuel Parker called The New Cold-Molded Boatbuilding from lofting to launch. There is a chapter on choosing a design and adapting a design. It might help in making some decisions. Here's a link to it:


          http://tinyurl.com/344ffm

          George

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Mike Dolph <johndolph@...>
          To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 5:01:30 PM
          Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

          I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list and I
          think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
          details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at least
          one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam bending
          but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical bending. I
          have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I suspect
          in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
          could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning experience
          for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
          with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some master
          builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM) crowd.
          It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal way; he
          has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge for an
          amateur.

          I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the differences in
          framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes me
          for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat builders
          in the 1920's, it's

          "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard M.
          Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search (set to
          full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some of
          these great old titles really ought to be in the files section here;
          it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
          continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
          Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on that
          one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.

          Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
          that would work for Maid of Endor?

          Mike Dolph

          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1" <gordocutter_ 1@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames versus
          > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of each.
          > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for planking
          > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this decade
          > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would probably be
          > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
          > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for Brazilian
          > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but if I
          > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from those
          > used for laminated frames.
          > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
          >




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        • Kenneth Grome
          ... Cold molding can actually eliminate most or all of the frames, produce a stronger structure overall, and create a nice clean interior that s very easy to
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 31 6:31 PM
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            > Laminating will require more time and expense
            > in materials both lumber and adhesives. It will
            > also be messy. However I believe that it will yield
            > a stronger and more stable frame per dimension
            > than steam bending.

            Cold molding can actually eliminate most or all of the frames, produce a
            stronger structure overall, and create a nice clean interior that's
            very easy to maintain and to add furniture to.

            Cold molded hulls are also reported to maintain their value much better
            than other hulls built using wood.

            Sincerely,
            Ken Grome
            Bagacay Boatworks
            www.bagacayboatworks.com
          • Don Douglas
            From my reading on boatbuilding and the discussion of laminated members versus saw or steam-bent frames I think you would be fine keeping the scantlings the
            Message 5 of 27 , Mar 31 7:53 PM
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              From my reading on boatbuilding and the discussion of laminated members versus saw or steam-bent frames I think you would be fine keeping the scantlings the same as they are now. Especially on a desing like Maid of Endor. On Perigee, John Atkin redrew the lines for strip planking and changed the framing from full steam bent frames on 9" centers to half frames on 30" centers.

              Here are some fuller details of John Atkin's modifications to Perigee drawn in 1988. (my comments in parentheses)

              Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 30" centers (from the scale drawing they only extend up the inside of the hull about 18" from the keel and mounted to the floors)
              Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these appear to be mounted higher than William's original design and the LWL defines the mid point of the ceiling)
              Hanging Knees: one on each side in line with the mast, a one on each side 12" before and aft of these. (they are sided 7/8" regardless of whether they are grown or laminated)
              Inwale: 7/8" x 3" white oak (this runs the full length of the hull and the deck beams set on top.
              Floor timbers: 1 1/8" white oak on 15" centers (so it appears there are floors in between the frames also that the strip planks attach to)
              There are also tie rods of 5/16" bronze rod which tie the carlins to the deck beams to the hull.
              The outside of the strip planking is covered with two layers of 4 oz polyproline impregnated with epoxy.

              Williams Atkin's original scantlings

              Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 9" centers (these extend to the sheer line and fit into notches in the keel)
              Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these are show along the flat of the hull profile below the LWL)
              Clamp: 7/8" x 3" yellow pine (this is mounted to the frames and into knees fore and aft.
              Shelf: 7/8" x 4" yellow pine (mounted on top of the clamp, deck beams are mounted to this)
              Floor timbers: 7/8" white oak on each frame

              Planking on both is 3/4" white cedar

              So this put me into a similar situation as gordocutter and here is what I plan on doing.
              1. Keep frames on original lines but skip every other one. This will give me 18" centers and keep the ones needed for bulkheads.
              Result: more frames than John's specs for strip planking, less than William's carvel planked.
              2. Keep frames full length to sheer and utilize both sheer clamp and shelve as in original design.
              Result: Stiffer hull at top of sheer and across deck.
              3. With full frames I will lower the ceiling strakes back down toward William's original design in order to keep them below interior fixtures like forward storage shelves and main cabin stove and sink counter top.

              Looking back at the Maid of Endor articles and photos, it appears the here also are few full length frames and lots of hanging knees. The spacing looks about what John spec'ed out for Perigee guessing from the relative size of the interior. Most articles/books state that strip planking can eliminate or reduce the need for frames. The nailing together of the planks and the covering of the outside with laminate and epoxy does wonders for strengthing the hull structure as a whole. So my bottom line idea is to laminate my frames from molds made from the lofting. There will be 5 layers to make up the 7/8" final thickness. Once the frames are removed from the molds they will spring back some but this should not be a problem when I fit them. There will by main molds and ribbands setup so the frames should spring back to the designed shape very closely. Or that is what I plan. Then once the strip planks start going on the frames should pull up tightly to the planks nicely.

              Well that is my essay for the night. My wife is wondering why I am not watching "Dancing With The Stars"!
              Don Douglas

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • George C
              Another reason for keeping the frames on a cold-molded hull is for appearance. The laminated frames keep a traditional look on a traditional design! ... From:
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 1, 2008
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                Another reason for keeping the frames on a cold-molded hull is for appearance. The laminated frames keep a traditional look on a traditional design!


                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Don Douglas <douglashome@...>
                To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 7:53:24 PM
                Subject: Re: [AtkinBoats] Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

                From my reading on boatbuilding and the discussion of laminated members versus saw or steam-bent frames I think you would be fine keeping the scantlings the same as they are now. Especially on a desing like Maid of Endor. On Perigee, John Atkin redrew the lines for strip planking and changed the framing from full steam bent frames on 9" centers to half frames on 30" centers.

                Here are some fuller details of John Atkin's modifications to Perigee drawn in 1988. (my comments in parentheses)

                Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 30" centers (from the scale drawing they only extend up the inside of the hull about 18" from the keel and mounted to the floors)
                Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these appear to be mounted higher than William's original design and the LWL defines the mid point of the ceiling)
                Hanging Knees: one on each side in line with the mast, a one on each side 12" before and aft of these. (they are sided 7/8" regardless of whether they are grown or laminated)
                Inwale: 7/8" x 3" white oak (this runs the full length of the hull and the deck beams set on top.
                Floor timbers: 1 1/8" white oak on 15" centers (so it appears there are floors in between the frames also that the strip planks attach to)
                There are also tie rods of 5/16" bronze rod which tie the carlins to the deck beams to the hull.
                The outside of the strip planking is covered with two layers of 4 oz polyproline impregnated with epoxy.

                Williams Atkin's original scantlings

                Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 9" centers (these extend to the sheer line and fit into notches in the keel)
                Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these are show along the flat of the hull profile below the LWL)
                Clamp: 7/8" x 3" yellow pine (this is mounted to the frames and into knees fore and aft.
                Shelf: 7/8" x 4" yellow pine (mounted on top of the clamp, deck beams are mounted to this)
                Floor timbers: 7/8" white oak on each frame

                Planking on both is 3/4" white cedar

                So this put me into a similar situation as gordocutter and here is what I plan on doing.
                1. Keep frames on original lines but skip every other one. This will give me 18" centers and keep the ones needed for bulkheads.
                Result: more frames than John's specs for strip planking, less than William's carvel planked.
                2. Keep frames full length to sheer and utilize both sheer clamp and shelve as in original design.
                Result: Stiffer hull at top of sheer and across deck.
                3. With full frames I will lower the ceiling strakes back down toward William's original design in order to keep them below interior fixtures like forward storage shelves and main cabin stove and sink counter top.

                Looking back at the Maid of Endor articles and photos, it appears the here also are few full length frames and lots of hanging knees. The spacing looks about what John spec'ed out for Perigee guessing from the relative size of the interior. Most articles/books state that strip planking can eliminate or reduce the need for frames. The nailing together of the planks and the covering of the outside with laminate and epoxy does wonders for strengthing the hull structure as a whole. So my bottom line idea is to laminate my frames from molds made from the lofting. There will be 5 layers to make up the 7/8" final thickness. Once the frames are removed from the molds they will spring back some but this should not be a problem when I fit them. There will by main molds and ribbands setup so the frames should spring back to the designed shape very closely. Or that is what I plan. Then once the strip planks start going on the frames should pull up tightly
                to the planks nicely.

                Well that is my essay for the night. My wife is wondering why I am not watching "Dancing With The Stars"!
                Don Douglas

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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              • gordocutter_1
                Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you re enjoying it! I m starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I m going to stick with the
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
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                  Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying it!
                  I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                  going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to make
                  the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to make
                  this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose in a
                  lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all the
                  support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info that
                  you give came to be very handful for me.
                  To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I thinking
                  in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you think
                  about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                  resistance.
                  Thanks .

                  Adaucto.


                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list and I
                  > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
                  > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at least
                  > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                  bending
                  > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                  bending. I
                  > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                  suspect
                  > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
                  > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning experience
                  > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
                  > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                  master
                  > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                  crowd.
                  > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                  way; he
                  > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge for
                  an
                  > amateur.
                  >
                  > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                  differences in
                  > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes
                  me
                  > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                  builders
                  > in the 1920's, it's
                  >
                  > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard M.
                  > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search (set
                  to
                  > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some of
                  > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                  here;
                  > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
                  > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
                  > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on
                  that
                  > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                  >
                  > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
                  > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                  >
                  > Mike Dolph
                  >
                  > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1" <gordocutter_1@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                  versus
                  > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                  each.
                  > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                  planking
                  > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                  decade
                  > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                  probably be
                  > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                  > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                  Brazilian
                  > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                  if I
                  > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                  those
                  > > used for laminated frames.
                  > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                  > >
                  >
                • gordocutter_1
                  Hi there Don! Thanks for the tips, your plans are very similar to the Maid of Endor, the frames are also 7/8 x 7/8 , and they are 9 1/4 centers but I m
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi there Don! Thanks for the tips, your plans are very similar to
                    the Maid of Endor, the frames are also 7/8" x 7/8", and they are 9
                    1/4'' centers but I'm thinking in doing all of them, with the same
                    centers and with laminated frames, like I was saying to Mike, I
                    would like to build with steam bent frames but it's a "little" to
                    hard for me, for the spring back problem somebody in Brazil of
                    another group of boat builders has told me that you could overcome
                    this problem by putting long and thin parts of fiberglass between
                    the veneers, that could also add some resistance to the frame, what
                    you think about it?
                    Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                    using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?

                    Cheers
                    Adaucto


                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > From my reading on boatbuilding and the discussion of laminated
                    members versus saw or steam-bent frames I think you would be fine
                    keeping the scantlings the same as they are now. Especially on a
                    desing like Maid of Endor. On Perigee, John Atkin redrew the lines
                    for strip planking and changed the framing from full steam bent
                    frames on 9" centers to half frames on 30" centers.
                    >
                    > Here are some fuller details of John Atkin's modifications to
                    Perigee drawn in 1988. (my comments in parentheses)
                    >
                    > Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 30" centers (from the scale
                    drawing they only extend up the inside of the hull about 18" from
                    the keel and mounted to the floors)
                    > Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these appear to be
                    mounted higher than William's original design and the LWL defines
                    the mid point of the ceiling)
                    > Hanging Knees: one on each side in line with the mast, a one on
                    each side 12" before and aft of these. (they are sided 7/8"
                    regardless of whether they are grown or laminated)
                    > Inwale: 7/8" x 3" white oak (this runs the full length of the
                    hull and the deck beams set on top.
                    > Floor timbers: 1 1/8" white oak on 15" centers (so it appears
                    there are floors in between the frames also that the strip planks
                    attach to)
                    > There are also tie rods of 5/16" bronze rod which tie the carlins
                    to the deck beams to the hull.
                    > The outside of the strip planking is covered with two layers of 4
                    oz polyproline impregnated with epoxy.
                    >
                    > Williams Atkin's original scantlings
                    >
                    > Frames: 7/8" x 7/8" white oak on 9" centers (these extend to the
                    sheer line and fit into notches in the keel)
                    > Ceilings: 5 strakes of 5/8"x2' white cedar (these are show
                    along the flat of the hull profile below the LWL)
                    > Clamp: 7/8" x 3" yellow pine (this is mounted to the frames and
                    into knees fore and aft.
                    > Shelf: 7/8" x 4" yellow pine (mounted on top of the clamp, deck
                    beams are mounted to this)
                    > Floor timbers: 7/8" white oak on each frame
                    >
                    > Planking on both is 3/4" white cedar
                    >
                    > So this put me into a similar situation as gordocutter and here is
                    what I plan on doing.
                    > 1. Keep frames on original lines but skip every other one. This
                    will give me 18" centers and keep the ones needed for bulkheads.
                    > Result: more frames than John's specs for strip planking,
                    less than William's carvel planked.
                    > 2. Keep frames full length to sheer and utilize both sheer clamp
                    and shelve as in original design.
                    > Result: Stiffer hull at top of sheer and across deck.
                    > 3. With full frames I will lower the ceiling strakes back down
                    toward William's original design in order to keep them below
                    interior fixtures like forward storage shelves and main cabin stove
                    and sink counter top.
                    >
                    > Looking back at the Maid of Endor articles and photos, it appears
                    the here also are few full length frames and lots of hanging knees.
                    The spacing looks about what John spec'ed out for Perigee guessing
                    from the relative size of the interior. Most articles/books state
                    that strip planking can eliminate or reduce the need for frames.
                    The nailing together of the planks and the covering of the outside
                    with laminate and epoxy does wonders for strengthing the hull
                    structure as a whole. So my bottom line idea is to laminate my
                    frames from molds made from the lofting. There will be 5 layers to
                    make up the 7/8" final thickness. Once the frames are removed from
                    the molds they will spring back some but this should not be a
                    problem when I fit them. There will by main molds and ribbands
                    setup so the frames should spring back to the designed shape very
                    closely. Or that is what I plan. Then once the strip planks start
                    going on the frames should pull up tightly to the planks nicely.
                    >
                    > Well that is my essay for the night. My wife is wondering why I
                    am not watching "Dancing With The Stars"!
                    > Don Douglas
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • gordocutter_1
                    Hi George ! I also made the same google search for find some site of the builder but all that I found was that address, didn t help me very much cause it
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi George ! I also made the same google search for find some site of
                      the builder but all that I found was that address, didn't help me
                      very much cause it doesn't have even a phone number, even if it was
                      he is in England so… the phone bill would be astronomic.
                      But I was very interest by the book that you wrote about, and I'm
                      about to search it now, thanks very much.

                      Adaucto


                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, George C <glcost2@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > The Robelia was built by a professional in the UK. He used 1/2"
                      strip planking with one 3mm veneer lamination and 2 layers of glass.
                      Not sure on the size of frames, but the photos in the article do
                      give a relative idea. Maybe Gordocutter can contact the builder to
                      get more details. I did a quick google search and found this address.
                      >
                      > EUAN SEEL MARINE SURVEYS LIMITED
                      > 1 Alton Green, Lower Holbrook, Ipswich,
                      > Suffolk United Kingdom
                      >
                      > If Gordocutter is interested in cold-molding, there is a book by
                      Reuel Parker called The New Cold-Molded Boatbuilding from lofting to
                      launch. There is a chapter on choosing a design and adapting a
                      design. It might help in making some decisions. Here's a link to it:
                      >
                      >
                      > http://tinyurl.com/344ffm
                      >
                      > George
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message ----
                      > From: Mike Dolph <johndolph@...>
                      > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 5:01:30 PM
                      > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames
                      >
                      > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian
                      Yahoo list and I
                      > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
                      > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at least
                      > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                      bending
                      > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                      bending. I
                      > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                      suspect
                      > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
                      > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning experience
                      > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
                      > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                      master
                      > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                      crowd.
                      > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                      way; he
                      > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge for
                      an
                      > amateur.
                      >
                      > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                      differences in
                      > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes
                      me
                      > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                      builders
                      > in the 1920's, it's
                      >
                      > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard M.
                      > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search (set
                      to
                      > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some of
                      > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                      here;
                      > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
                      > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
                      > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on
                      that
                      > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                      >
                      > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
                      > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                      >
                      > Mike Dolph
                      >
                      > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1" <gordocutter_
                      1@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                      versus
                      > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                      each.
                      > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                      planking
                      > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                      decade
                      > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                      probably be
                      > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                      > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                      Brazilian
                      > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                      if I
                      > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                      those
                      > > used for laminated frames.
                      > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > <!--
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                      _____________________________________________________________________
                      _______________
                      > No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal
                      for Yahoo! users and friends.
                      > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text1.com
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • gordocutter_1
                      Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very interested, I m now thinking in building with laminated frames. ... page ... frames ... of ... and ... versus ...
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very interested, I'm now
                        thinking in building with laminated frames.
                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "glcost2" <glcost2@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Have you read the 2 articles at the bottom of the Maid of Endor
                        page
                        > on Atkinboatplans.com. Both are on Robella which has laminated
                        frames
                        > and cold-molded hull. The articles don't mention the pros or cons
                        of
                        > laminated frames, but are very good reading on a non-traditional
                        and
                        > successful build.
                        >
                        > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1" <gordocutter_1@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                        versus
                        > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                        each.
                        > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                        planking
                        > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                        decade
                        > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                        probably be
                        > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                        > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                        Brazilian
                        > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                        if I
                        > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                        those
                        > > used for laminated frames.
                        > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                        > >
                        >
                      • George C
                        Gordocutter, The tinyurl link below will take you to the book. There are many pages that you can read. http://tinyurl.com/344ffm George ... From: gordocutter_1
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Gordocutter,

                          The tinyurl link below will take you to the book. There are many pages that you can read.
                          http://tinyurl.com/344ffm

                          George


                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: gordocutter_1 <gordocutter_1@...>
                          To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:01:57 PM
                          Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

                          Hi George ! I also made the same google search for find some site of
                          the builder but all that I found was that address, didn't help me
                          very much cause it doesn't have even a phone number, even if it was
                          he is in England so� the phone bill would be astronomic.
                          But I was very interest by the book that you wrote about, and I'm
                          about to search it now, thanks very much.

                          Adaucto

                          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, George C <glcost2@... > wrote:
                          >
                          > The Robelia was built by a professional in the UK. He used 1/2"
                          strip planking with one 3mm veneer lamination and 2 layers of glass.
                          Not sure on the size of frames, but the photos in the article do
                          give a relative idea. Maybe Gordocutter can contact the builder to
                          get more details. I did a quick google search and found this address.
                          >
                          > EUAN SEEL MARINE SURVEYS LIMITED
                          > 1 Alton Green, Lower Holbrook, Ipswich,
                          > Suffolk United Kingdom
                          >
                          > If Gordocutter is interested in cold-molding, there is a book by
                          Reuel Parker called The New Cold-Molded Boatbuilding from lofting to
                          launch. There is a chapter on choosing a design and adapting a
                          design. It might help in making some decisions. Here's a link to it:
                          >
                          >
                          > http://tinyurl. com/344ffm
                          >
                          > George
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message ----
                          > From: Mike Dolph <johndolph@. ..>
                          > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 5:01:30 PM
                          > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames
                          >
                          > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian
                          Yahoo list and I
                          > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
                          > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at least
                          > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                          bending
                          > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                          bending. I
                          > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                          suspect
                          > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
                          > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning experience
                          > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
                          > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                          master
                          > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                          crowd.
                          > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                          way; he
                          > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge for
                          an
                          > amateur.
                          >
                          > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                          differences in
                          > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes
                          me
                          > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                          builders
                          > in the 1920's, it's
                          >
                          > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard M.
                          > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search (set
                          to
                          > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some of
                          > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                          here;
                          > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
                          > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
                          > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on
                          that
                          > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                          >
                          > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
                          > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                          >
                          > Mike Dolph
                          >
                          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1" <gordocutter_
                          1@...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                          versus
                          > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                          each.
                          > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                          planking
                          > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                          decade
                          > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                          probably be
                          > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                          > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                          Brazilian
                          > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                          if I
                          > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                          those
                          > > used for laminated frames.
                          > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                          > >
                          >
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                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
                          You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • George C
                          Gordocutter, At the bottom the article (don t remember which one), there is an email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him with
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 2, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Gordocutter,

                            At the bottom the article (don't remember which one), there is an email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him with questions.

                            George


                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: gordocutter_1 <gordocutter_1@...>
                            To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:07:24 PM
                            Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames

                            Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very interested, I'm now
                            thinking in building with laminated frames.
                            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "glcost2" <glcost2@... > wrote:
                            >
                            > Have you read the 2 articles at the bottom of the Maid of Endor
                            page
                            > on Atkinboatplans. com. Both are on Robella which has laminated
                            frames
                            > and cold-molded hull. The articles don't mention the pros or cons
                            of
                            > laminated frames, but are very good reading on a non-traditional
                            and
                            > successful build.
                            >
                            > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1" <gordocutter_ 1@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                            versus
                            > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                            each.
                            > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                            planking
                            > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                            decade
                            > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                            probably be
                            > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                            > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                            Brazilian
                            > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                            if I
                            > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                            those
                            > > used for laminated frames.
                            > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                            > >
                            >




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                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
                            You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                            http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • gordocutter_1
                            There is? I didn t notice! Will check right now, don t now how this pass by me, thanks! ... email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 3, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              There is? I didn't notice! Will check right now, don't now how this
                              pass by me, thanks!

                              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, George C <glcost2@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Gordocutter,
                              >
                              > At the bottom the article (don't remember which one), there is an
                              email address for the owner of the Robelia. May you can email him
                              with questions.
                              >
                              > George
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message ----
                              > From: gordocutter_1 <gordocutter_1@...>
                              > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:07:24 PM
                              > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Steam bent frames VS laminated frames
                              >
                              > Hi!Yes I read the two articles, They are very
                              interested, I'm now
                              > thinking in building with laminated frames.
                              > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "glcost2" <glcost2@ > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Have you read the 2 articles at the bottom of the Maid of Endor
                              > page
                              > > on Atkinboatplans. com. Both are on Robella which has laminated
                              > frames
                              > > and cold-molded hull. The articles don't mention the pros or
                              cons
                              > of
                              > > laminated frames, but are very good reading on a non-traditional
                              > and
                              > > successful build.
                              > >
                              > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogro ups.com, "gordocutter_ 1"
                              <gordocutter_ 1@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                              > versus
                              > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                              > each.
                              > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                              > planking
                              > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                              > decade
                              > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                              > probably be
                              > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                              > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                              > Brazilian
                              > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
                              but
                              > if I
                              > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                              > those
                              > > > used for laminated frames.
                              > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              _____________________________________________________________________
                              _______________
                              > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of
                              Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                              > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Mike Dolph
                              Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was as long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My former marriage to a
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 3, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was as
                                long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My former
                                marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
                                there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after so
                                many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
                                income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
                                being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be more
                                than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
                                frames and structural members John Atkins specified.

                                I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
                                some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but there
                                are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
                                different woods.

                                I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch by
                                discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country of
                                my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not officially.

                                Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph

                                I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
                                and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.

                                Mike Dolph

                                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                <gordocutter_1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
                                it!
                                > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                                > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
                                make
                                > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to make
                                > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose in a
                                > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all the
                                > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info that
                                > you give came to be very handful for me.
                                > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I thinking
                                > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
                                think
                                > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                                > resistance.
                                > Thanks .
                                >
                                > Adaucto.
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list and I
                                > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and framing
                                > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
                                least
                                > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                                > bending
                                > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                                > bending. I
                                > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                                > suspect
                                > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer it
                                > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
                                experience
                                > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better off
                                > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                                > master
                                > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                                > crowd.
                                > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                                > way; he
                                > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
                                for
                                > an
                                > > amateur.
                                > >
                                > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                                > differences in
                                > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term escapes
                                > me
                                > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                                > builders
                                > > in the 1920's, it's
                                > >
                                > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by Richard
                                M.
                                > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
                                (set
                                > to
                                > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and some
                                of
                                > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                                > here;
                                > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this will
                                > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat Building" by
                                > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations on
                                > that
                                > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                                > >
                                > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone details
                                > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                                > >
                                > > Mike Dolph
                                > >
                                > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                <gordocutter_1@>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                                > versus
                                > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages of
                                > each.
                                > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified for
                                > planking
                                > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in this
                                > decade
                                > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                                > probably be
                                > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never now.
                                > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                                > Brazilian
                                > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans, but
                                > if I
                                > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different from
                                > those
                                > > > used for laminated frames.
                                > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Don Douglas
                                Aduacto, I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to my list of ideas
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 3, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Aduacto,

                                  I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the wood layers?

                                  Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that. Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.

                                  As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and spokeshaves sharp.

                                  Anyway that's the plan
                                  Don Douglas




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Mike Dolph
                                  Douglas, I don t want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this in mind. I
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 4, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Douglas,

                                    I don't want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built
                                    a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this
                                    in mind.

                                    I don't remember having read of a strict order for considering lines
                                    in lofting corrections but on giving it some thought I would try this
                                    and call it my best effort. I'd fair all the initial lines such as
                                    sheer, keel, profile and plan lines the architect would have done
                                    first. Then an architect would draw in three stations of
                                    approximately the displacement he wants but I would give emphasis to
                                    diagonals in lofting since he would have gone through several
                                    iterations of that to get his drawings and what I mainly want to
                                    achieve is a smooth, surface for planking and waterflow. Once
                                    diagonals were fair, I'd work the changes into the stations trying to
                                    leave the sheer and keel alone and, if at all possible, the rabbet as
                                    drawn. This seems to me to make the boat fair and doable with the
                                    least necessary changes to the architects intent.

                                    This describes more changes than you would probably actually have to
                                    decide on. I would certainly like to hear yours or anyone else's
                                    priorities in lofting as well. In the end you have to decide, since
                                    the Atkin's aren't there it's up to you to "skin this cat".

                                    Mike Dolph

                                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Aduacto,
                                    >

                                    > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                                    gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                                    draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                                    try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                                    fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                                    correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything
                                    to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is
                                    very different from how it was done 75 years ago.
                                    > Don Douglas
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Tim & Kris
                                    A few comments: 1.) A properly laminated frame is about 3/4 again stronger than a similarly dimensioned steam bent frame of the same material. 2.) Watch what
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 4, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      A few comments:

                                      1.) A properly laminated frame is about 3/4 again stronger than a
                                      similarly dimensioned steam bent frame of the same material.

                                      2.) Watch what you use; both adhesives and wood. High oil content wood
                                      or wood with tyloses (i.e. teak, ipe, or white oak) don't laminate
                                      correctly unless it's done in a very controlled manner, and even then
                                      it's up for debate. Your adhesive choices are pretty much epoxy,
                                      resourcinal, or Polyurethane (non-foaming).

                                      3.) Lofting a boat where the table of offsets was derived from the
                                      drawings is a bit of a best fit exercise. Use good battens and work
                                      for the fairest line and you should be okay.

                                      4.) If your planning on cold molding, the frames are pretty much there
                                      for show when it's all said and done. I don't think this is
                                      necessarily a bad thing as having a hull be too strong is okay with
                                      me, and the interior room lost is minimal.

                                      Tim



                                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Douglas,
                                      >
                                      > I don't want to claim the experience of even an amateur who has built
                                      > a boat much less a professional so consider all my comments with this
                                      > in mind.
                                      >
                                      > I don't remember having read of a strict order for considering lines
                                      > in lofting corrections but on giving it some thought I would try this
                                      > and call it my best effort. I'd fair all the initial lines such as
                                      > sheer, keel, profile and plan lines the architect would have done
                                      > first. Then an architect would draw in three stations of
                                      > approximately the displacement he wants but I would give emphasis to
                                      > diagonals in lofting since he would have gone through several
                                      > iterations of that to get his drawings and what I mainly want to
                                      > achieve is a smooth, surface for planking and waterflow. Once
                                      > diagonals were fair, I'd work the changes into the stations trying to
                                      > leave the sheer and keel alone and, if at all possible, the rabbet as
                                      > drawn. This seems to me to make the boat fair and doable with the
                                      > least necessary changes to the architects intent.
                                      >
                                      > This describes more changes than you would probably actually have to
                                      > decide on. I would certainly like to hear yours or anyone else's
                                      > priorities in lofting as well. In the end you have to decide, since
                                      > the Atkin's aren't there it's up to you to "skin this cat".
                                      >
                                      > Mike Dolph
                                      >
                                      > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Aduacto,
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                                      > gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                                      > draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                                      > try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                                      > fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                                      > correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required everything
                                      > to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets format is
                                      > very different from how it was done 75 years ago.
                                      > > Don Douglas
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • gordocutter_1
                                      Hi Douglas! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems, and I was trying to contact the guy ho told me about the laminated
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi Douglas! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to
                                        solve some problems, and I was trying to contact the guy ho told me
                                        about the laminated technique, and ask him about your questions,
                                        still didn't get a answer. Sadly I can not answer your questions
                                        about the weight of the cloth, or how it would look like the ended
                                        product, but I do have some clues about it:
                                        The frames are thin so, I suspect that they don't need too much
                                        strength to hold the spring back, I was thinking that one layer of
                                        fiberglass between four layers of wood can be enough to hold them, I
                                        think that the strength of the epoxi combine with the one layer of
                                        fiber can do the job properly, and if its stay between two layers
                                        of wood it would not be very visualize in the final product .
                                        For example four layers off wood with 3/16" and one layer between
                                        them of 1/8" fiberglass. That is how I think would work. If you put
                                        a layer of fiber between each layer of wood you would have to reduce
                                        the thickness of the wood in order to get the same dimensions of the
                                        frame (7/8") and the fiberglass would be more visualize if you do
                                        that way. When I get the answer of the guy that told me the tip, I
                                        keep you informed.

                                        Cheers
                                        Adaucto


                                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Aduacto,
                                        >
                                        > I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the
                                        wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to
                                        my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between
                                        each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final
                                        laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look
                                        like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another
                                        question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the
                                        wood layers?
                                        >
                                        > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                                        gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                                        draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                                        try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                                        fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                                        correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required
                                        everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets
                                        format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did
                                        make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that.
                                        Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast
                                        that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has
                                        all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-
                                        stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms
                                        up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.
                                        >
                                        > As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems
                                        to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the
                                        strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line
                                        them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold
                                        patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used
                                        to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that
                                        would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to
                                        incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that
                                        is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of
                                        the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to
                                        the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands
                                        start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard
                                        to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and
                                        spokeshaves sharp.
                                        >
                                        > Anyway that's the plan
                                        > Don Douglas
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • gordocutter_1
                                        Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don t understand why you can not.
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve
                                          some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don't
                                          understand why you can not. I'm surprised that you have a Brazilian
                                          kid, when you get any vacations here let me know; maybe we can do
                                          some "live" chat about boats. I'm glad too that I found a way for
                                          the construction. As for the wood, eucalyptus is not the final
                                          decision is just a study option, I'm open for others, but I'm still
                                          searching, I already talk with the suppliers of the lyptus in order
                                          to get some samples for doing some experiments with, lets see what's
                                          going to be…
                                          Cheers

                                          Adaucto



                                          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was
                                          as
                                          > long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My
                                          former
                                          > marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
                                          > there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after
                                          so
                                          > many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
                                          > income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
                                          > being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be
                                          more
                                          > than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
                                          > frames and structural members John Atkins specified.
                                          >
                                          > I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
                                          > some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but
                                          there
                                          > are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
                                          > different woods.
                                          >
                                          > I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch
                                          by
                                          > discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country
                                          of
                                          > my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not
                                          officially.
                                          >
                                          > Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph
                                          >
                                          > I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
                                          > and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.
                                          >
                                          > Mike Dolph
                                          >
                                          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                          > <gordocutter_1@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
                                          > it!
                                          > > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                                          > > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
                                          > make
                                          > > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to
                                          make
                                          > > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose
                                          in a
                                          > > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all
                                          the
                                          > > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info
                                          that
                                          > > you give came to be very handful for me.
                                          > > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I
                                          thinking
                                          > > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
                                          > think
                                          > > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                                          > > resistance.
                                          > > Thanks .
                                          > >
                                          > > Adaucto.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
                                          > > wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list
                                          and I
                                          > > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and
                                          framing
                                          > > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
                                          > least
                                          > > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                                          > > bending
                                          > > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                                          > > bending. I
                                          > > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                                          > > suspect
                                          > > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer
                                          it
                                          > > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
                                          > experience
                                          > > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better
                                          off
                                          > > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                                          > > master
                                          > > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                                          > > crowd.
                                          > > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                                          > > way; he
                                          > > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
                                          > for
                                          > > an
                                          > > > amateur.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                                          > > differences in
                                          > > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term
                                          escapes
                                          > > me
                                          > > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                                          > > builders
                                          > > > in the 1920's, it's
                                          > > >
                                          > > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by
                                          Richard
                                          > M.
                                          > > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
                                          > (set
                                          > > to
                                          > > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and
                                          some
                                          > of
                                          > > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                                          > > here;
                                          > > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this
                                          will
                                          > > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat
                                          Building" by
                                          > > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations
                                          on
                                          > > that
                                          > > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone
                                          details
                                          > > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Mike Dolph
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                          > <gordocutter_1@>
                                          > > > wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                                          > > versus
                                          > > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages
                                          of
                                          > > each.
                                          > > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified
                                          for
                                          > > planking
                                          > > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in
                                          this
                                          > > decade
                                          > > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                                          > > probably be
                                          > > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never
                                          now.
                                          > > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                                          > > Brazilian
                                          > > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
                                          but
                                          > > if I
                                          > > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different
                                          from
                                          > > those
                                          > > > > used for laminated frames.
                                          > > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • gordocutter_1
                                          Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don t understand why you can not.
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
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                                            Hi Mike! Sorry for taking so long to answer you, I needed to solve
                                            some problems. Well for me you could be naturalize here, I don't
                                            understand why you can not. I'm surprised that you have a Brazilian
                                            kid, when you get any vacations here let me know maybe we can do
                                            some "live" chat about boats. I'm glad too that I found a way for
                                            the construction. As for the wood, eucalyptus is not the final
                                            decision is just a study option, I'm open for others, but I'm still
                                            searching, I already talk with the suppliers of the lyptus in order
                                            to get some samples for doing some experiments with, lets see what's
                                            going to be…
                                            Cheers

                                            Adaucto



                                            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Unfortunately I was back from Brasil September 1, 2006; that was
                                            as
                                            > long as I could stay on a tourist visa with one extension. My
                                            former
                                            > marriage to a Brazilian and the fact that one of my kids was born
                                            > there did not quite allow me to take up permanent residency after
                                            so
                                            > many years out of the country. Now I am back the economy and my
                                            > income are walking hand in hand at new lows and I don't anticipate
                                            > being able to go back soon. I would say that either way will be
                                            more
                                            > than strong enough, especially if you plan to duplicate all the
                                            > frames and structural members John Atkins specified.
                                            >
                                            > I'm really happy that you can see a way forward now. I still have
                                            > some reservations about Eucalyptus as a boat building wood but
                                            there
                                            > are many kinds of eucalyptus so we are very likely talking about
                                            > different woods.
                                            >
                                            > I always enjoy Brasil, even when I am far away and only in touch
                                            by
                                            > discussion groups and email. In a lot of ways it was the country
                                            of
                                            > my youth and I feel like a dual citizen even if I am not
                                            officially.
                                            >
                                            > Check out my page at myspace myspace.com/mikedolph
                                            >
                                            > I have some pictures there from my trip. I'll be around both here
                                            > and at hovercraft e veleiros if I can be of any help.
                                            >
                                            > Mike Dolph
                                            >
                                            > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                            > <gordocutter_1@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Hello Mike! How is the trip here in Brazil? Hope you're enjoying
                                            > it!
                                            > > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                                            > > going to stick with the laminated one, although I would like to
                                            > make
                                            > > the traditional way, its really a challenge here in Brazil to
                                            make
                                            > > this kind of construction, and with the laminated I can choose
                                            in a
                                            > > lager list, what kind of wood I can use. Thanks again for all
                                            the
                                            > > support that you're provide me with, and the quality of info
                                            that
                                            > > you give came to be very handful for me.
                                            > > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I
                                            thinking
                                            > > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you
                                            > think
                                            > > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                                            > > resistance.
                                            > > Thanks .
                                            > >
                                            > > Adaucto.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dolph" <johndolph@>
                                            > > wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I've been talking with Gordocutter on a Brasilian Yahoo list
                                            and I
                                            > > > think what he needs to make a decision is scantlings and
                                            framing
                                            > > > details for laminated frames and strip planking. There is at
                                            > least
                                            > > > one Brazilian hardwood that rivals green white oak for steam
                                            > > bending
                                            > > > but the lines of Maid of Endor require some pretty radical
                                            > > bending. I
                                            > > > have seen Ipe bent in large sizes for planking (on film)and I
                                            > > suspect
                                            > > > in the 1/2'' or so size that would be used for a twenty footer
                                            it
                                            > > > could be used this way. How ever it would be a learning
                                            > experience
                                            > > > for a master builder in Brazil and GordoCutter might be better
                                            off
                                            > > > with the more modern fiberglass clad strip planking. Let some
                                            > > master
                                            > > > builder do it the old fashioned way for the "Woodenboat" (TM)
                                            > > crowd.
                                            > > > It's not that he doesn't feel the urge to build the traditonal
                                            > > way; he
                                            > > > has said he would like too but it's really too big a challenge
                                            > for
                                            > > an
                                            > > > amateur.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I know of one downloadable book that covers some of the
                                            > > differences in
                                            > > > framing for steam bent and frames from futtocks, the term
                                            escapes
                                            > > me
                                            > > > for the moment. That book was a course book for wooden boat
                                            > > builders
                                            > > > in the 1920's, it's
                                            > > >
                                            > > > "A Practical Course in Wooden Boat and Ship Building" by
                                            Richard
                                            > M.
                                            > > > Van Gaasbeek and it's downloadable through Google Book Search
                                            > (set
                                            > > to
                                            > > > full view) to make it easy to find. Google Book Search and
                                            some
                                            > of
                                            > > > these great old titles really ought to be in the files section
                                            > > here;
                                            > > > it seems very likely that fully downloadable gems like this
                                            will
                                            > > > continue to be found. Another good one is "Small Boat
                                            Building" by
                                            > > > Patterson also from the 1920's only most of the illustrations
                                            on
                                            > > that
                                            > > > one are lost because they were fold outs and weren't scanned.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Does anyone have scantling tables and framing and backbone
                                            details
                                            > > > that would work for Maid of Endor?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Mike Dolph
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                            > <gordocutter_1@>
                                            > > > wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I would like to start a discursion about steam bent frames
                                            > > versus
                                            > > > > laminated frames, what are the advantages and disadvantages
                                            of
                                            > > each.
                                            > > > > For example, the plans of the Maid of Endor are specified
                                            for
                                            > > planking
                                            > > > > over steam bent frames, but the plans are of 1953 and in
                                            this
                                            > > decade
                                            > > > > the epoxi system didn't exist yet, but I think it would
                                            > > probably be
                                            > > > > the choose of Sr. Atkins for the plans, sadly we'll never
                                            now.
                                            > > > > I'm fight with this impasse now, because I'm looking for
                                            > > Brazilian
                                            > > > > woods that can substitute the woods specified in the plans,
                                            but
                                            > > if I
                                            > > > > choose the steam bent frames the woods will be different
                                            from
                                            > > those
                                            > > > > used for laminated frames.
                                            > > > > I give now the words for you, Sirs.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • gordocutter_1
                                            Hi Don! I just read the answer, of the friend that told me about the tip, and you re right about the way to go, the layers are intercalated one of wood one of
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Apr 8, 2008
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                                              Hi Don! I just read the answer, of the friend that told me about the
                                              tip, and you're right about the way to go, the layers are
                                              intercalated one of wood one of fiber but it can be less of fiber
                                              than wood for example 4 layers of wood (would be like 5 mm for a
                                              7/8" frame ) and two or three of fiber, the final appearance would
                                              be like a thicker glue between the layers of wood, I think this
                                              could look nice for a bright work. He didn't told me the weight of
                                              the fiber just what kind of it, unidirectional fiber, here in Brazil
                                              we buying this kind of fiber in "roles" (don't now if is the right
                                              word), I'm getting some samples of eucalyptus in order to do some
                                              test with the wood for frames and I will use this method, when I do
                                              will show you some photos of the result, hope I helped!

                                              Adaucto


                                              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Aduacto,
                                              >
                                              > I have no idea about laminating some fiberglass in between the
                                              wood pieces. This might be a good experiment and I will add that to
                                              my list of ideas to try. Do you put a layer of fiberglass between
                                              each layer of wood? And do the fiberglass layers show in the final
                                              laminate? I would suspect so but don't know what that would look
                                              like if you are going to keep the frames finished bright. Another
                                              question for you: What weight of cloth are they using between the
                                              wood layers?
                                              >
                                              > Presently I have all the lead I need for the keel but have not
                                              gotten the lofting down to something I am happy with. Each time I
                                              draw the lines and sections I get something different. Repaint and
                                              try again. I am trying to decipher the Delftship lofting program to
                                              fair up the lines but that is almost more work than just drawing and
                                              correcting. It is a good program and free, but it required
                                              everything to get converted to meters first and the table of offsets
                                              format is very different from how it was done 75 years ago. I did
                                              make a 4' tapered birds-mouth spar section to see how to do that.
                                              Came out OK and I learned a lot before I have to make the 19' mast
                                              that tapers at both ends. The www.duckworksmagazine.com site has
                                              all the details on how to do that. I am also making some rope-
                                              stropped wooden blocks now to keep me busy until the weather warms
                                              up. Snowed again today in Colorado Springs.
                                              >
                                              > As for trying to laminate frames inside the ribbands, this seems
                                              to be more trouble than steam bending. You would have to glue the
                                              strips together and bring the messy bundle inside the ribbands, line
                                              them up and clamp it up. I plan on using the stations as mold
                                              patterns and before I set the molds on the keel, they will be used
                                              to laminate the frames. The stations are on 18" centers so that
                                              would eliminate half of the original frames. I will have to
                                              incorporate the actual floors in the molds to make this work, that
                                              is what screws are for! If I keep each one on the narrow side of
                                              the mold and let them overhang some, then I can plane them down to
                                              the correct bevel after the molds are positioned and the ribbands
                                              start to go on. I don't think that a 7/8" frame is going to be hard
                                              to plane down even if I use white oak. I keep my planes and
                                              spokeshaves sharp.
                                              >
                                              > Anyway that's the plan
                                              > Don Douglas
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                            • John Kohnen
                                              Laminated frames will work fine. They ll be stronger than steam-bent frames, but a lot more work. Just about every older bent-frame boat has had some broken
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Apr 10, 2008
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                                                Laminated frames will work fine. They'll be stronger than steam-bent
                                                frames, but a lot more work. Just about every older bent-frame boat has
                                                had some broken ribs... Steam-bent frames are quick and easy to install
                                                though, and the boats so built last well enough.

                                                Be sure to use wood that takes gluing well. A few weeks ago I saw a
                                                (formerly) laminated stem that came out of a boat built in the 1980s,
                                                IIRC. NONE of the laminations were still glued together! The wood was oak;
                                                I don't know what the glue was, but I've heard much about epoxy and oak
                                                not getting along. If you use planking fasteners that penetrate all the
                                                laminations -- rivets would be best -- you'll have some insurance in case
                                                the adhesive fails.

                                                Don't get to worked up about spring back. You should set the boat up so
                                                that the frames are held in their intended curve when installed. They'll
                                                spring back a little when they come off the mold, but when you install
                                                them on the boat you can bend them back into shape and hold them with
                                                battens, cross spalls, etc. Steam-bent frames spring back too, but it
                                                doesn't matter because held to the proper shape when installed. Forget the
                                                fiberglass between laminations, you won't need it.

                                                On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:25:54 -0700, Adaucto wrote:

                                                > ...
                                                > I'm starting to accept what you saying about the frames, and I'm
                                                > going to stick with the laminated one,
                                                > ...
                                                > To overcome the problem of spring back of the lamination I thinking
                                                > in put a light part of fiberglass between the veneers what you think
                                                > about it? Maybe this stop the spring back, and will add some
                                                > resistance.

                                                --
                                                John <jkohnen@...>
                                                The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
                                                alarmed -- and hence clamorous to be led to safety -- by
                                                menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them
                                                imaginary. <H. L. Mencken>
                                              • John Kohnen
                                                I think that s what I d do. I d probably set up the molds and ribbands so the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the frames should be,
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Apr 10, 2008
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                                                  I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and ribbands so
                                                  the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the frames
                                                  should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands. Twisting
                                                  the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up after the
                                                  glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.

                                                  On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:

                                                  > ...
                                                  > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                                                  > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?

                                                  --
                                                  John <jkohnen@...>
                                                  Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                                                  dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                                                  describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                                                  described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                                                • gordocutter_1
                                                  Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that s the way I ll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel them later if I would
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Apr 12, 2008
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                                                    Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that's the way
                                                    I'll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel
                                                    them later if I would laminated before put them in their places.
                                                    Doing directly on the ribbands I can get the same result if I did
                                                    with the steam bent frame.

                                                    Adaucto Mello


                                                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and
                                                    ribbands so
                                                    > the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of the
                                                    frames
                                                    > should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands.
                                                    Twisting
                                                    > the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up
                                                    after the
                                                    > glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.
                                                    >
                                                    > On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > ...
                                                    > > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                                                    > > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?
                                                    >
                                                    > --
                                                    > John <jkohnen@...>
                                                    > Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                                                    > dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                                                    > describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                                                    > described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                                                    >
                                                  • Tom Hesselink
                                                    Let me suggest another method for laminating frames. You can take it for what you will. Get a plastic staple gun from www.raptornails.com (the staples are
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Apr 12, 2008
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                                                      Let me suggest another method for laminating frames. You can take it
                                                      for what you will.

                                                      Get a plastic staple gun from www.raptornails.com (the staples are
                                                      plastic, not the gun) and staple the laminates directly to the inside
                                                      of the rib bands. Of course you had better heavily wax the rib bands
                                                      first but then you will be able to just grind off the protruding
                                                      staples after the epoxy has set and the rib bands removed. The ribs
                                                      can then be faired with regular block planes, spokeshaves and small
                                                      5" grinders (as they most assuredly will need some fairing). You can
                                                      switch back to stainless staples on the inner laminates once the
                                                      staples are not protuding. I would not incorporate fiberglass into
                                                      the laminations as the whole job will be plenty messy already. The
                                                      glass would add some strength but I don't think you need any more
                                                      strength especially if you cold mold or strip plank the hull. By
                                                      using this method you can also easily shift each laminate sideways a
                                                      bit to help keep the beveled frames inline and then grind off the
                                                      steps in the laminates later. It will be much easier if you cut
                                                      beveled laminates for the frames with steep bevels. For a 7/8" thick
                                                      frame I would suggest using about 5 laminates to prevent spring
                                                      back.

                                                      The idea of lofting stations so that frames can be laminated outside
                                                      of the rib bands will make things very difficult as now you have to
                                                      move the stations in about 2 3/8" (figuring 7/8" for the frames and
                                                      1.5" for the rib bands) from what has been already dictated in the
                                                      plans—that is a time consuming and complicated operation. Like I
                                                      said—take it for what you want. This is going to be a challenging
                                                      job no matter how it is done—patience will be a virtue. Good luck,
                                                      Tom




                                                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "gordocutter_1"
                                                      <gordocutter_1@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Hi Kohnen! Thank you for your considerations, I think that's the
                                                      way
                                                      > I'll take. In fact the major cause for that is the need to bevel
                                                      > them later if I would laminated before put them in their places.
                                                      > Doing directly on the ribbands I can get the same result if I did
                                                      > with the steam bent frame.
                                                      >
                                                      > Adaucto Mello
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I think that's what I'd do. I'd probably set up the molds and
                                                      > ribbands so
                                                      > > the outer faces of the ribbands were where the inside faces of
                                                      the
                                                      > frames
                                                      > > should be, to lay up the laminated frames _outside_ the ribbands.
                                                      > Twisting
                                                      > > the laminations into place would be tricky, and cleaning them up
                                                      > after the
                                                      > > glue hardens, but you wouldn't have to bevel them afterwards.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:50:20 -0700, Adaucto wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > > ...
                                                      > > > Also what you think about laminated directly over the ribbands,
                                                      > > > using some plastic to prevent the frame from gluing the ribband?
                                                      > >
                                                      > > --
                                                      > > John <jkohnen@>
                                                      > > Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                                                      > > dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                                                      > > describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                                                      > > described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                                                      > >
                                                      >
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