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Re: Willy Winship - any body built one? Can help answering some questions?

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  • piper_tim
    Hi Don, OK, I m with you so far. I understand lofting and this boat was choosen due to the simple lofting required. And I understand the strongback and mold
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 19, 2007
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      Hi Don,

      OK, I'm with you so far. I understand lofting and this boat was choosen due to the simple
      lofting required. And I understand the strongback and mold height.

      What I'm confused about is when the actual frames get attached to the hull. Are they
      attachehd to the molds and glued in when the sides and bottom is glued in OR are they
      added when the boat is 'rightsided' and the molds are removed?

      Most books covering the subject are talking about steam bent oak frames that attach to
      the mold before the planking is attached, or they're talking about glued lapstrake in which
      the frames are added after the boat is taken off the mold.

      I think this boat may falll into the second catagory. I just want to make sure that the
      whole thing doesn't 'spring back' when I remove the strongback and molds.

      Thanks,
      Tim



      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...> wrote:
      >
      > Great question.
      > Here is what I would do. When you loft the boat, draw a line parallel to the base line
      about a foot above the top of the sheer. Lofting is an exercise in spatial imagining so
      think of this line as your future shop floor. Then when you draw in the frame sections
      extend them up to the shop floor line and do this on the body plan when you make your
      frame patterns. What this does in give you a level start for all the frames to build the boat
      upside down and everything will automatically be at the correct height. Your frames
      become your permanent molds so don't forget to bevel the edges correctly and run a
      batten after mold/frame setup to verify everything is fair. Erect these over a strongback
      frame with a cross spall at some point determined in the lofting to be the top of the
      strongback frame.
      > Greg Rossel's book shows some illustrations of this as do several other books that talk
      about building a boat upside down. Glen L Witt has a book, "Boatbuilding With Plywood"
      that covers this in detail for the frame construction but not the lofting part. Chapelle also
      discusses this in "Boatbuilding". Trying doing the lofting to a small scale and you will see
      what I mean and have an idea of what to plan for when you do the actual lofting.
      >
      > Don Douglas
      > Colorado Springs
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: piper_tim
      > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 8:36 PM
      > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Willy Winship - any body built one? Can help answering some
      questions?
      >
      >
      > Hi Don,
      >
      > Flat bottomed and slab sides is why I chose this boat. I was planning to make it all
      from
      > ply, but I think I like the way it looks cross planked and lapstraked. Still, for my second
      > boat, I think all ply may be the way to go.
      >
      > I've read Rossel's book "Building small boats" and (forgot the author) "building glued
      > lapstrake boats" so I have a good idea of what needs to happen...but even so...
      >
      > So, the first of many upcoming questions is: I'm assuming that I need to build a
      > strongback with the forms given on the plans, plank the sides and bottom (omitting a
      lot
      > of steps there), but when do you insert the sawn frames? Do you remove the boat from
      > the form and add the frames one at a time? Do you mount the frames to the forms and
      > glue them in while planking?
      >
      > Neither book really dealt with ply sided boats and this type of forms.
      >
      > Thanks in advance,
      > Tim
      >
      > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Tim,
      > > Willy Winship looks like a great next step in your boatbuilding
      > > path. The lines are very similar to several flat bottom skiffs that
      > > I have read about. Greg Rossel in his new book "The Boatbuilder's
      > > Apprentice" shows a similar skiff in his section on lofting. Plus
      > > the Wooden Boat series "Getting Started in Boats" had it's first
      > > article on a flat bottom rowboat that would share some of the same
      > > building processes. I don't know what books you have read but those
      > > are always a point of beginning. The next is to loft the boat out
      > > full size and start planning on building. Any specific questions you
      > > have, just post to the site and someone will have some good advice.
      > > Since you did not post anything specific that you are questioning
      > > we are going to have to wait in suspense for the next question. Just
      > > because someone has not built this specific boat does not mean there
      > > is not knowledge lurking in the membership waiting to be asked.
      > > I also had my first experience with a Cajun Pirogue, so I know
      > > where you are at.
      > >
      > > Have fun building!
      > > Don Douglas
      > > Colorado Springs
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • holzboat@aol.com
      I usually install the frames after the sides are planked up and the chine timbers?have been faired for the bottom. This leaves you the ability to better see
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 19, 2007
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        I usually install the frames after the sides are planked up and the chine timbers?have been faired for the bottom. This leaves you the ability to better see what you are doing and also allows you to easily clamp both the top and bottom of each frame as you fasten them. After all frames are installed then you plank the bottom. One or two cross spalls or spreader sticks are temporarily clamped to the frames to help keep the hull from changing width when you lift it off the molds. These are removed later when you install the seat risers and thwarts.


        -----Original Message-----
        From: piper_tim <timrein@...>
        To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 6:47 am
        Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Willy Winship - any body built one? Can help answering some questions?






        Hi Don,

        OK, I'm with you so far. I understand lofting and this boat was choosen due to the simple
        lofting required. And I understand the strongback and mold height.

        What I'm confused about is when the actual frames get attached to the hull. Are they
        attachehd to the molds and glued in when the sides and bottom is glued in OR are they
        added when the boat is 'rightsided' and the molds are removed?

        Most books covering the subject are talking about steam bent oak frames that attach to
        the mold before the planking is attached, or they're talking about glued lapstrake in which
        the frames are added after the boat is taken off the mold.

        I think this boat may falll into the second catagory. I just want to make sure that the
        whole thing doesn't 'spring back' when I remove the strongback and molds.

        Thanks,
        Tim

        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...> wrote:
        >
        > Great question.
        > Here is what I would do. When you loft the boat, draw a line parallel to the base line
        about a foot above the top of the sheer. Lofting is an exercise in spatial imagining so
        think of this line as your future shop floor. Then when you draw in the frame sections
        extend them up to the shop floor line and do this on the body plan when you make your
        frame patterns. What this does in give you a level start for all the frames to build the boat
        upside down and everything will automatically be at the correct height. Your frames
        become your permanent molds so don't forget to bevel the edges correctly and run a
        batten after mold/frame setup to verify everything is fair. Erect these over a strongback
        frame with a cross spall at some point determined in the lofting to be the top of the
        strongback frame.
        > Greg Rossel's book shows some illustrations of this as do several other books that talk
        about building a boat upside down. Glen L Witt has a book, "Boatbuilding With Plywood"
        that covers this in detail for the frame construction but not the lofting part. Chapelle also
        discusses this in "Boatbuilding". Trying doing the lofting to a small scale and you will see
        what I mean and have an idea of what to plan for when you do the actual lofting.
        >
        > Don Douglas
        > Colorado Springs
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: piper_tim
        > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 8:36 PM
        > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Willy Winship - any body built one? Can help answering some
        questions?
        >
        >
        > Hi Don,
        >
        > Flat bottomed and slab sides is why I chose this boat. I was planning to make it all
        from
        > ply, but I think I like the way it looks cross planked and lapstraked. Still, for my second
        > boat, I think all ply may be the way to go.
        >
        > I've read Rossel's book "Building small boats" and (forgot the author) "building glued
        > lapstrake boats" so I have a good idea of what needs to happen...but even so...
        >
        > So, the first of many upcoming questions is: I'm assuming that I need to build a
        > strongback with the forms given on the plans, plank the sides and bottom (omitting a
        lot
        > of steps there), but when do you insert the sawn frames? Do you remove the boat from
        > the form and add the frames one at a time? Do you mount the frames to the forms and
        > glue them in while planking?
        >
        > Neither book really dealt with ply sided boats and this type of forms.
        >
        > Thanks in advance,
        > Tim
        >
        > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Tim,
        > > Willy Winship looks like a great next step in your boatbuilding
        > > path. The lines are very similar to several flat bottom skiffs that
        > > I have read about. Greg Rossel in his new book "The Boatbuilder's
        > > Apprentice" shows a similar skiff in his section on lofting. Plus
        > > the Wooden Boat series "Getting Started in Boats" had it's first
        > > article on a flat bottom rowboat that would share some of the same
        > > building processes. I don't know what books you have read but those
        > > are always a point of beginning. The next is to loft the boat out
        > > full size and start planning on building. Any specific questions you
        > > have, just post to the site and someone will have some good advice.
        > > Since you did not post anything specific that you are questioning
        > > we are going to have to wait in suspense for the next question. Just
        > > because someone has not built this specific boat does not mean there
        > > is not knowledge lurking in the membership waiting to be asked.
        > > I also had my first experience with a Cajun Pirogue, so I know
        > > where you are at.
        > >
        > > Have fun building!
        > > Don Douglas
        > > Colorado Springs
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >





        ________________________________________________________________________
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Don Douglas
        Tim After going back to the site and reviewing the description and drawings, holzboat has the correct process for this boat. The frames taper to the top and
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 20, 2007
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          Tim

          After going back to the site and reviewing the description and drawings, holzboat has the correct process for this boat. The frames taper to the top and would not leave much to run down to the floor for setup. Plus unless you are going to use a plywood bottom, there are no athwart frames on the bottom to join the side frames. That pretty much eliminates using permanent frames as the molds. So I think normal molds and building upside down is the way to go. The temporary cross spalls would hold everything right while the side frame are being installed where a mold was. And once the bottom is on and the boat righted, the rest should be straight forward. Rossel goes over this type of construction in Chapter 5 in pretty good detail.

          Have fun
          Don


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • piper_tim
          OK, next question... where can I find 20 feet of fir to make the mast? What about the sails, anyone know of a good sailmaker that could make the sails for
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 21, 2007
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            OK, next question... where can I find 20 feet of fir to make the mast? What about the
            sails, anyone know of a good sailmaker that could make the sails for this boat?

            Tim


            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...> wrote:
            >
            > Tim
            >
            > After going back to the site and reviewing the description and drawings, holzboat has
            the correct process for this boat. The frames taper to the top and would not leave much
            to run down to the floor for setup. Plus unless you are going to use a plywood bottom,
            there are no athwart frames on the bottom to join the side frames. That pretty much
            eliminates using permanent frames as the molds. So I think normal molds and building
            upside down is the way to go. The temporary cross spalls would hold everything right
            while the side frame are being installed where a mold was. And once the bottom is on and
            the boat righted, the rest should be straight forward. Rossel goes over this type of
            construction in Chapter 5 in pretty good detail.
            >
            > Have fun
            > Don
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Kenneth Grome
            ... These guys have a good reputation according to what others have posted online: http://www.leesails.com/ Sincerely, Ken Grome Bagacay Boatworks
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 21, 2007
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              > What about the sails, anyone know
              > of a good sailmaker that could make
              > the sails for this boat?

              These guys have a good reputation according to what others have posted
              online:

              http://www.leesails.com/

              Sincerely,
              Ken Grome
              Bagacay Boatworks
              www.bagacayboatworks.com
            • John Kohnen
              Plywood planking will work fine for Willy Winship. Put the plywood on the bottom with the surface grain running _across_ the boat. WW is built pretty stout,
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 23, 2007
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                Plywood planking will work fine for Willy Winship. Put the plywood on the
                bottom with the surface grain running _across_ the boat. WW is built
                pretty stout, I'd use 1/2" plywood on the bottom and 3/8" on the sides
                (1/4" if you do lapstrake sides with plywood "planks"). Do the framing
                just like the plans call for.

                You need to loft the lines full size before building your strongback and
                forms. Pretty simple to do for a flat-bottom skiff, and it might save you
                trouble later.

                Good luck with your project, and be sure to keep us informed of your
                progress.

                On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 19:36:57 -0700, Tim wrote:

                > Flat bottomed and slab sides is why I chose this boat. I was planning
                > to make it all from
                > ply, but I think I like the way it looks cross planked and lapstraked.
                > Still, for my second
                > boat, I think all ply may be the way to go.
                > ...
                > So, the first of many upcoming questions is: I'm assuming that I need
                > to build a
                > strongback with the forms given on the plans,
                > ...

                --
                John <jkohnen@...>
                Correlation does not imply causation; except, of course, to your
                cat. <Craig O'Donnell>
              • John Kohnen
                If plywood is used with the surface grain running across the bottom there s no need for the complication of bottom frames. You could use thinner plywood if
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 23, 2007
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                  If plywood is used with the surface grain running across the bottom
                  there's no need for the complication of bottom frames. You could use
                  thinner plywood if there were cross frames, but bottom frames in a
                  flat-bottom boat are poor shipmates. :o( They make it harder to keep the
                  boat clean and dry and complicate maintenance. :ob I know all about 'em --
                  my sailing skiff has bottom frames.

                  On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 06:56:57 -0700, Don D wrote:

                  > ...
                  > unless you are going to use a plywood bottom, there are no athwart
                  > frames on the bottom to join the side frames....

                  --
                  John <jkohnen@...>
                  The way to fight a woman is with your hat. Grab it and run.
                  <John Barrymore>
                • John Kohnen
                  Nowadays it makes sense to make the mast hollow, using the birdsmouth method (Google birdsmouth mast and you ll find plenty of info). You can resaw lesser
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 23, 2007
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                    Nowadays it makes sense to make the mast hollow, using the "birdsmouth"
                    method (Google "birdsmouth mast" and you'll find plenty of info). You can
                    resaw lesser quality lumber to get good "staves" and even scarf together
                    shorter pieces to make them, if necessary. Easier than finding a good
                    solid stick. I missed your location, if you told us, but suitable Douglas
                    fir is usually available in the west, and spruce on the east coast. Don't
                    go to Home Despot or other big box stores, find a real lumber yard that
                    sells to builders. Make the hollow mast 4% larger in diameter than the
                    solid stick, and make the staves so the least thickness of the mast walls
                    is 20% of the diameter (sorry, I can't find the easy way to calculate this
                    right now...). You could also do a triangular hollow mast, as shown in the
                    article by John Atkin I recently put online.

                    Duckworks sells sails for a good price, and I've heard good things about
                    them (the sails, Duckworks is better than "good" <g>):

                    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/sails.htm

                    On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 19:38:58 -0700, Tim wrote:

                    > OK, next question... where can I find 20 feet of fir to make the mast?
                    > What about the
                    > sails, anyone know of a good sailmaker that could make the sails for
                    > this boat?

                    --
                    John <jkohnen@...>
                    To delight in war is a merit in the soldier, a dangerous quality
                    in the captain, and a positive crime in the statesman. <George
                    Santayana>
                  • David
                    Tim, We got a custom sail last year from Duckworks. Quite happy with it. http://www.duckworksbbs.com/sails.htm Cheers, David Graybeal Portland, OR These are
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 5, 2007
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                      Tim,

                      We got a custom sail last year from Duckworks. Quite happy with it.

                      http://www.duckworksbbs.com/sails.htm

                      Cheers,
                      David Graybeal
                      Portland, OR

                      "These are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have
                      others" -- Groucho Marx

                      ***********

                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "piper_tim" <timrein@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > OK, next question... where can I find 20 feet of fir to make the
                      mast? What about the
                      > sails, anyone know of a good sailmaker that could make the sails for
                      this boat?
                      >
                      > Tim
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Tim
                      > >
                      > > After going back to the site and reviewing the description and
                      drawings, holzboat has
                      > the correct process for this boat. The frames taper to the top and
                      would not leave much
                      > to run down to the floor for setup. Plus unless you are going to
                      use a plywood bottom,
                      > there are no athwart frames on the bottom to join the side frames.
                      That pretty much
                      > eliminates using permanent frames as the molds. So I think normal
                      molds and building
                      > upside down is the way to go. The temporary cross spalls would hold
                      everything right
                      > while the side frame are being installed where a mold was. And once
                      the bottom is on and
                      > the boat righted, the rest should be straight forward. Rossel goes
                      over this type of
                      > construction in Chapter 5 in pretty good detail.
                      > >
                      > > Have fun
                      > > Don
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
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