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Re: [AtkinBoats] Re: Willy Winship - any body built one? Can help answering some questions?

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  • Don Douglas
    Great question. Here is what I would do. When you loft the boat, draw a line parallel to the base line about a foot above the top of the sheer. Lofting is an
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 17, 2007
      Great question.
      Here is what I would do. When you loft the boat, draw a line parallel to the base line about a foot above the top of the sheer. Lofting is an exercise in spatial imagining so think of this line as your future shop floor. Then when you draw in the frame sections extend them up to the shop floor line and do this on the body plan when you make your frame patterns. What this does in give you a level start for all the frames to build the boat upside down and everything will automatically be at the correct height. Your frames become your permanent molds so don't forget to bevel the edges correctly and run a batten after mold/frame setup to verify everything is fair. Erect these over a strongback frame with a cross spall at some point determined in the lofting to be the top of the strongback frame.
      Greg Rossel's book shows some illustrations of this as do several other books that talk about building a boat upside down. Glen L Witt has a book, "Boatbuilding With Plywood" that covers this in detail for the frame construction but not the lofting part. Chapelle also discusses this in "Boatbuilding". Trying doing the lofting to a small scale and you will see what I mean and have an idea of what to plan for when you do the actual lofting.

      Don Douglas
      Colorado Springs


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: piper_tim
      To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 8:36 PM
      Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Willy Winship - any body built one? Can help answering some questions?


      Hi Don,

      Flat bottomed and slab sides is why I chose this boat. I was planning to make it all from
      ply, but I think I like the way it looks cross planked and lapstraked. Still, for my second
      boat, I think all ply may be the way to go.

      I've read Rossel's book "Building small boats" and (forgot the author) "building glued
      lapstrake boats" so I have a good idea of what needs to happen...but even so...

      So, the first of many upcoming questions is: I'm assuming that I need to build a
      strongback with the forms given on the plans, plank the sides and bottom (omitting a lot
      of steps there), but when do you insert the sawn frames? Do you remove the boat from
      the form and add the frames one at a time? Do you mount the frames to the forms and
      glue them in while planking?

      Neither book really dealt with ply sided boats and this type of forms.

      Thanks in advance,
      Tim

      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...> wrote:
      >
      > Tim,
      > Willy Winship looks like a great next step in your boatbuilding
      > path. The lines are very similar to several flat bottom skiffs that
      > I have read about. Greg Rossel in his new book "The Boatbuilder's
      > Apprentice" shows a similar skiff in his section on lofting. Plus
      > the Wooden Boat series "Getting Started in Boats" had it's first
      > article on a flat bottom rowboat that would share some of the same
      > building processes. I don't know what books you have read but those
      > are always a point of beginning. The next is to loft the boat out
      > full size and start planning on building. Any specific questions you
      > have, just post to the site and someone will have some good advice.
      > Since you did not post anything specific that you are questioning
      > we are going to have to wait in suspense for the next question. Just
      > because someone has not built this specific boat does not mean there
      > is not knowledge lurking in the membership waiting to be asked.
      > I also had my first experience with a Cajun Pirogue, so I know
      > where you are at.
      >
      > Have fun building!
      > Don Douglas
      > Colorado Springs
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • piper_tim
      Hi Don, OK, I m with you so far. I understand lofting and this boat was choosen due to the simple lofting required. And I understand the strongback and mold
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 19, 2007
        Hi Don,

        OK, I'm with you so far. I understand lofting and this boat was choosen due to the simple
        lofting required. And I understand the strongback and mold height.

        What I'm confused about is when the actual frames get attached to the hull. Are they
        attachehd to the molds and glued in when the sides and bottom is glued in OR are they
        added when the boat is 'rightsided' and the molds are removed?

        Most books covering the subject are talking about steam bent oak frames that attach to
        the mold before the planking is attached, or they're talking about glued lapstrake in which
        the frames are added after the boat is taken off the mold.

        I think this boat may falll into the second catagory. I just want to make sure that the
        whole thing doesn't 'spring back' when I remove the strongback and molds.

        Thanks,
        Tim



        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...> wrote:
        >
        > Great question.
        > Here is what I would do. When you loft the boat, draw a line parallel to the base line
        about a foot above the top of the sheer. Lofting is an exercise in spatial imagining so
        think of this line as your future shop floor. Then when you draw in the frame sections
        extend them up to the shop floor line and do this on the body plan when you make your
        frame patterns. What this does in give you a level start for all the frames to build the boat
        upside down and everything will automatically be at the correct height. Your frames
        become your permanent molds so don't forget to bevel the edges correctly and run a
        batten after mold/frame setup to verify everything is fair. Erect these over a strongback
        frame with a cross spall at some point determined in the lofting to be the top of the
        strongback frame.
        > Greg Rossel's book shows some illustrations of this as do several other books that talk
        about building a boat upside down. Glen L Witt has a book, "Boatbuilding With Plywood"
        that covers this in detail for the frame construction but not the lofting part. Chapelle also
        discusses this in "Boatbuilding". Trying doing the lofting to a small scale and you will see
        what I mean and have an idea of what to plan for when you do the actual lofting.
        >
        > Don Douglas
        > Colorado Springs
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: piper_tim
        > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 8:36 PM
        > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Willy Winship - any body built one? Can help answering some
        questions?
        >
        >
        > Hi Don,
        >
        > Flat bottomed and slab sides is why I chose this boat. I was planning to make it all
        from
        > ply, but I think I like the way it looks cross planked and lapstraked. Still, for my second
        > boat, I think all ply may be the way to go.
        >
        > I've read Rossel's book "Building small boats" and (forgot the author) "building glued
        > lapstrake boats" so I have a good idea of what needs to happen...but even so...
        >
        > So, the first of many upcoming questions is: I'm assuming that I need to build a
        > strongback with the forms given on the plans, plank the sides and bottom (omitting a
        lot
        > of steps there), but when do you insert the sawn frames? Do you remove the boat from
        > the form and add the frames one at a time? Do you mount the frames to the forms and
        > glue them in while planking?
        >
        > Neither book really dealt with ply sided boats and this type of forms.
        >
        > Thanks in advance,
        > Tim
        >
        > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Tim,
        > > Willy Winship looks like a great next step in your boatbuilding
        > > path. The lines are very similar to several flat bottom skiffs that
        > > I have read about. Greg Rossel in his new book "The Boatbuilder's
        > > Apprentice" shows a similar skiff in his section on lofting. Plus
        > > the Wooden Boat series "Getting Started in Boats" had it's first
        > > article on a flat bottom rowboat that would share some of the same
        > > building processes. I don't know what books you have read but those
        > > are always a point of beginning. The next is to loft the boat out
        > > full size and start planning on building. Any specific questions you
        > > have, just post to the site and someone will have some good advice.
        > > Since you did not post anything specific that you are questioning
        > > we are going to have to wait in suspense for the next question. Just
        > > because someone has not built this specific boat does not mean there
        > > is not knowledge lurking in the membership waiting to be asked.
        > > I also had my first experience with a Cajun Pirogue, so I know
        > > where you are at.
        > >
        > > Have fun building!
        > > Don Douglas
        > > Colorado Springs
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • holzboat@aol.com
        I usually install the frames after the sides are planked up and the chine timbers?have been faired for the bottom. This leaves you the ability to better see
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 19, 2007
          I usually install the frames after the sides are planked up and the chine timbers?have been faired for the bottom. This leaves you the ability to better see what you are doing and also allows you to easily clamp both the top and bottom of each frame as you fasten them. After all frames are installed then you plank the bottom. One or two cross spalls or spreader sticks are temporarily clamped to the frames to help keep the hull from changing width when you lift it off the molds. These are removed later when you install the seat risers and thwarts.


          -----Original Message-----
          From: piper_tim <timrein@...>
          To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 6:47 am
          Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Willy Winship - any body built one? Can help answering some questions?






          Hi Don,

          OK, I'm with you so far. I understand lofting and this boat was choosen due to the simple
          lofting required. And I understand the strongback and mold height.

          What I'm confused about is when the actual frames get attached to the hull. Are they
          attachehd to the molds and glued in when the sides and bottom is glued in OR are they
          added when the boat is 'rightsided' and the molds are removed?

          Most books covering the subject are talking about steam bent oak frames that attach to
          the mold before the planking is attached, or they're talking about glued lapstrake in which
          the frames are added after the boat is taken off the mold.

          I think this boat may falll into the second catagory. I just want to make sure that the
          whole thing doesn't 'spring back' when I remove the strongback and molds.

          Thanks,
          Tim

          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...> wrote:
          >
          > Great question.
          > Here is what I would do. When you loft the boat, draw a line parallel to the base line
          about a foot above the top of the sheer. Lofting is an exercise in spatial imagining so
          think of this line as your future shop floor. Then when you draw in the frame sections
          extend them up to the shop floor line and do this on the body plan when you make your
          frame patterns. What this does in give you a level start for all the frames to build the boat
          upside down and everything will automatically be at the correct height. Your frames
          become your permanent molds so don't forget to bevel the edges correctly and run a
          batten after mold/frame setup to verify everything is fair. Erect these over a strongback
          frame with a cross spall at some point determined in the lofting to be the top of the
          strongback frame.
          > Greg Rossel's book shows some illustrations of this as do several other books that talk
          about building a boat upside down. Glen L Witt has a book, "Boatbuilding With Plywood"
          that covers this in detail for the frame construction but not the lofting part. Chapelle also
          discusses this in "Boatbuilding". Trying doing the lofting to a small scale and you will see
          what I mean and have an idea of what to plan for when you do the actual lofting.
          >
          > Don Douglas
          > Colorado Springs
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: piper_tim
          > To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 8:36 PM
          > Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Willy Winship - any body built one? Can help answering some
          questions?
          >
          >
          > Hi Don,
          >
          > Flat bottomed and slab sides is why I chose this boat. I was planning to make it all
          from
          > ply, but I think I like the way it looks cross planked and lapstraked. Still, for my second
          > boat, I think all ply may be the way to go.
          >
          > I've read Rossel's book "Building small boats" and (forgot the author) "building glued
          > lapstrake boats" so I have a good idea of what needs to happen...but even so...
          >
          > So, the first of many upcoming questions is: I'm assuming that I need to build a
          > strongback with the forms given on the plans, plank the sides and bottom (omitting a
          lot
          > of steps there), but when do you insert the sawn frames? Do you remove the boat from
          > the form and add the frames one at a time? Do you mount the frames to the forms and
          > glue them in while planking?
          >
          > Neither book really dealt with ply sided boats and this type of forms.
          >
          > Thanks in advance,
          > Tim
          >
          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Tim,
          > > Willy Winship looks like a great next step in your boatbuilding
          > > path. The lines are very similar to several flat bottom skiffs that
          > > I have read about. Greg Rossel in his new book "The Boatbuilder's
          > > Apprentice" shows a similar skiff in his section on lofting. Plus
          > > the Wooden Boat series "Getting Started in Boats" had it's first
          > > article on a flat bottom rowboat that would share some of the same
          > > building processes. I don't know what books you have read but those
          > > are always a point of beginning. The next is to loft the boat out
          > > full size and start planning on building. Any specific questions you
          > > have, just post to the site and someone will have some good advice.
          > > Since you did not post anything specific that you are questioning
          > > we are going to have to wait in suspense for the next question. Just
          > > because someone has not built this specific boat does not mean there
          > > is not knowledge lurking in the membership waiting to be asked.
          > > I also had my first experience with a Cajun Pirogue, so I know
          > > where you are at.
          > >
          > > Have fun building!
          > > Don Douglas
          > > Colorado Springs
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >





          ________________________________________________________________________
          Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Don Douglas
          Tim After going back to the site and reviewing the description and drawings, holzboat has the correct process for this boat. The frames taper to the top and
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 20, 2007
            Tim

            After going back to the site and reviewing the description and drawings, holzboat has the correct process for this boat. The frames taper to the top and would not leave much to run down to the floor for setup. Plus unless you are going to use a plywood bottom, there are no athwart frames on the bottom to join the side frames. That pretty much eliminates using permanent frames as the molds. So I think normal molds and building upside down is the way to go. The temporary cross spalls would hold everything right while the side frame are being installed where a mold was. And once the bottom is on and the boat righted, the rest should be straight forward. Rossel goes over this type of construction in Chapter 5 in pretty good detail.

            Have fun
            Don


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • piper_tim
            OK, next question... where can I find 20 feet of fir to make the mast? What about the sails, anyone know of a good sailmaker that could make the sails for
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 21, 2007
              OK, next question... where can I find 20 feet of fir to make the mast? What about the
              sails, anyone know of a good sailmaker that could make the sails for this boat?

              Tim


              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@...> wrote:
              >
              > Tim
              >
              > After going back to the site and reviewing the description and drawings, holzboat has
              the correct process for this boat. The frames taper to the top and would not leave much
              to run down to the floor for setup. Plus unless you are going to use a plywood bottom,
              there are no athwart frames on the bottom to join the side frames. That pretty much
              eliminates using permanent frames as the molds. So I think normal molds and building
              upside down is the way to go. The temporary cross spalls would hold everything right
              while the side frame are being installed where a mold was. And once the bottom is on and
              the boat righted, the rest should be straight forward. Rossel goes over this type of
              construction in Chapter 5 in pretty good detail.
              >
              > Have fun
              > Don
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Kenneth Grome
              ... These guys have a good reputation according to what others have posted online: http://www.leesails.com/ Sincerely, Ken Grome Bagacay Boatworks
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 21, 2007
                > What about the sails, anyone know
                > of a good sailmaker that could make
                > the sails for this boat?

                These guys have a good reputation according to what others have posted
                online:

                http://www.leesails.com/

                Sincerely,
                Ken Grome
                Bagacay Boatworks
                www.bagacayboatworks.com
              • John Kohnen
                Plywood planking will work fine for Willy Winship. Put the plywood on the bottom with the surface grain running _across_ the boat. WW is built pretty stout,
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 23, 2007
                  Plywood planking will work fine for Willy Winship. Put the plywood on the
                  bottom with the surface grain running _across_ the boat. WW is built
                  pretty stout, I'd use 1/2" plywood on the bottom and 3/8" on the sides
                  (1/4" if you do lapstrake sides with plywood "planks"). Do the framing
                  just like the plans call for.

                  You need to loft the lines full size before building your strongback and
                  forms. Pretty simple to do for a flat-bottom skiff, and it might save you
                  trouble later.

                  Good luck with your project, and be sure to keep us informed of your
                  progress.

                  On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 19:36:57 -0700, Tim wrote:

                  > Flat bottomed and slab sides is why I chose this boat. I was planning
                  > to make it all from
                  > ply, but I think I like the way it looks cross planked and lapstraked.
                  > Still, for my second
                  > boat, I think all ply may be the way to go.
                  > ...
                  > So, the first of many upcoming questions is: I'm assuming that I need
                  > to build a
                  > strongback with the forms given on the plans,
                  > ...

                  --
                  John <jkohnen@...>
                  Correlation does not imply causation; except, of course, to your
                  cat. <Craig O'Donnell>
                • John Kohnen
                  If plywood is used with the surface grain running across the bottom there s no need for the complication of bottom frames. You could use thinner plywood if
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 23, 2007
                    If plywood is used with the surface grain running across the bottom
                    there's no need for the complication of bottom frames. You could use
                    thinner plywood if there were cross frames, but bottom frames in a
                    flat-bottom boat are poor shipmates. :o( They make it harder to keep the
                    boat clean and dry and complicate maintenance. :ob I know all about 'em --
                    my sailing skiff has bottom frames.

                    On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 06:56:57 -0700, Don D wrote:

                    > ...
                    > unless you are going to use a plywood bottom, there are no athwart
                    > frames on the bottom to join the side frames....

                    --
                    John <jkohnen@...>
                    The way to fight a woman is with your hat. Grab it and run.
                    <John Barrymore>
                  • John Kohnen
                    Nowadays it makes sense to make the mast hollow, using the birdsmouth method (Google birdsmouth mast and you ll find plenty of info). You can resaw lesser
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 23, 2007
                      Nowadays it makes sense to make the mast hollow, using the "birdsmouth"
                      method (Google "birdsmouth mast" and you'll find plenty of info). You can
                      resaw lesser quality lumber to get good "staves" and even scarf together
                      shorter pieces to make them, if necessary. Easier than finding a good
                      solid stick. I missed your location, if you told us, but suitable Douglas
                      fir is usually available in the west, and spruce on the east coast. Don't
                      go to Home Despot or other big box stores, find a real lumber yard that
                      sells to builders. Make the hollow mast 4% larger in diameter than the
                      solid stick, and make the staves so the least thickness of the mast walls
                      is 20% of the diameter (sorry, I can't find the easy way to calculate this
                      right now...). You could also do a triangular hollow mast, as shown in the
                      article by John Atkin I recently put online.

                      Duckworks sells sails for a good price, and I've heard good things about
                      them (the sails, Duckworks is better than "good" <g>):

                      http://www.duckworksbbs.com/sails.htm

                      On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 19:38:58 -0700, Tim wrote:

                      > OK, next question... where can I find 20 feet of fir to make the mast?
                      > What about the
                      > sails, anyone know of a good sailmaker that could make the sails for
                      > this boat?

                      --
                      John <jkohnen@...>
                      To delight in war is a merit in the soldier, a dangerous quality
                      in the captain, and a positive crime in the statesman. <George
                      Santayana>
                    • David
                      Tim, We got a custom sail last year from Duckworks. Quite happy with it. http://www.duckworksbbs.com/sails.htm Cheers, David Graybeal Portland, OR These are
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 5, 2007
                        Tim,

                        We got a custom sail last year from Duckworks. Quite happy with it.

                        http://www.duckworksbbs.com/sails.htm

                        Cheers,
                        David Graybeal
                        Portland, OR

                        "These are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have
                        others" -- Groucho Marx

                        ***********

                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "piper_tim" <timrein@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > OK, next question... where can I find 20 feet of fir to make the
                        mast? What about the
                        > sails, anyone know of a good sailmaker that could make the sails for
                        this boat?
                        >
                        > Tim
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Douglas" <douglashome@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Tim
                        > >
                        > > After going back to the site and reviewing the description and
                        drawings, holzboat has
                        > the correct process for this boat. The frames taper to the top and
                        would not leave much
                        > to run down to the floor for setup. Plus unless you are going to
                        use a plywood bottom,
                        > there are no athwart frames on the bottom to join the side frames.
                        That pretty much
                        > eliminates using permanent frames as the molds. So I think normal
                        molds and building
                        > upside down is the way to go. The temporary cross spalls would hold
                        everything right
                        > while the side frame are being installed where a mold was. And once
                        the bottom is on and
                        > the boat righted, the rest should be straight forward. Rossel goes
                        over this type of
                        > construction in Chapter 5 in pretty good detail.
                        > >
                        > > Have fun
                        > > Don
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
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