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Re: [AtkinBoats] Possible engine for Rescue Minor etc?

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  • John Kohnen
    Interesting engines. Chinese of course. The price is certainly attractive! The 23 hp. engine (a big thumper!) says the cooling is Water-cooled vertical,
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 25 6:42 PM
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      Interesting engines. Chinese of course. The price is certainly attractive!
      The 23 hp. engine (a big thumper!) says the cooling is "Water-cooled
      vertical," whatever that means, but the photo shows a hopper cooled engine
      and all the other liquid cooled engines are hopper cooled. Hopper cooling
      involves an open tank, "hopper," on top of the engine that you fill with
      water. Water circulates through the engine's water jacket by the "thermo
      siphon" effect -- as hot water rises from the engine into the hopper it's
      replaced by realtively cooler water from the hopper. Some heat is radiated
      from the walls of the hopper, but most is lost through steam. You've got
      to watch the level of the water in the hopper and replenish as needed.
      Another outfit selling Chinese and Indian engines explains hopper cooling,
      and offers some suggestions for adapting the engines to other cooling
      methods:

      http://www.utterpower.com/cooling.htm

      I've read of hopper cooled engines being used in Chinese ferry boats, but
      since a boat floats in cooling water, and who wants steam in the engine
      room <g>, I'd want to be able to adapt those Chinese engines for use with
      a keel cooler or heat exchanger, or even raw water cooling if the boat is
      going to be used mostly in fresh water or I feel willing to flush the
      engine after jaunts in salt water (I do that with my outboards anyway).
      The hoppers on the Chinese engines are removable and it probably wouldn't
      be too much hassle to rig up a water pump or two...

      Hopper cooling is ancient technology. Many agricultural and industrial
      engines in the Old Days used it. Here are some examples:

      http://www.oldengineshed.com/forcychm.html

      As with any non-marine engine you'll have to figure out some way to have a
      reverse and neutral. Robb White only used his "Rescue Minor" from the
      launch ramp to a beach on Dog Island, but most of us will occasionally
      have to deal with docking, and that can be pretty exciting without at
      least a neutral! <g>


      On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 10:47:08 -0700, Ron B wrote:

      > I know nothing about these, but it looks like it might work, and the
      > price is right:
      >
      > http://www.carrollstream.net/23.oHP%20WATER-COOLED%20DIESEL%20ENGINE.htm
      >
      > Cliff notes version:
      > 20 HP continuous at 2200 RPM
      > 1200cc single cylinder water cooled diesel
      > 4 gallons oil tank capacity
      > $696 plus shipping
      > ~430 lbs weight (from the picture, it looks like this includes the
      > radiator and gas tank, but can't be sure)
      > If it really does have that big cast iron flywheel, a flat belt could
      > run on that like the Listeroids do for their generators.
      > ...

      --
      John <jkohnen@...>
      Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a
      dog, it's too dark to read. <Groucho Marx>
    • Kenneth Grome
      I do not have any personal experience with these engines, but I can tell you more about them based on my research ... These are the typical low-cost diesel
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 25 7:02 PM
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        I do not have any personal experience with these engines, but I can tell
        you more about them based on my research ...

        These are the typical low-cost diesel engines made in China. There's
        nothing really wrong with them, they are basically very solid engines.
        They have been powering most of the diesel equipment made in China for
        decades.

        As far as using one in a lightweight boat, this is a heavy engine
        compared with many of the more modern and highly engineered engines
        available these days. But it is very inexpensive and it is probably no
        heavier than the engines Atkin specified when he designed the boat
        decades ago.

        If I were building a Rescue Minor and engine weight did not bother me
        (which is shouldn't) I would definitely use one of these engines. They
        do not require a reduction gear for the proper RPM range, and *IF* you
        don't need reverse (Robb White didn't need it on his boat) then almost
        nothing could be simpler than connecting the engine's PTO shaft with
        the propeller shaft via a couple of pulleys and a v-belt. An idler
        pulley for neutral is very easily to use in this configuration, too.

        The engine shown at the link you provided has a light attached. That's
        what the chrome piece is on the top right side of the engine. Here's
        another picture from a different angle of a similar engine installed on
        one of the common walk-behind tractors used in China and many other
        Asian countries:

        http://tns.en.alibaba.com/offerdetail/56756311/Sell_Walking_Tractor/showimg.html

        As you can see in this picture, the light is useful the way it is
        installed. In a boat the light would be pointing to the side if you
        don't take it off and install it somewhere else, so it would probably
        make sense to do so ... or just use it as a handheld light.

        Note that the "4 gallon oil tank" capacity is the fuel tank capacity.
        They often refer to fuel as "oil" in China (diesel oil) so you have to
        be careful when trying to distinguish between lubricating oil and fuel
        oil.

        It is strange that this particular engine does not have a specific fuel
        consumption value listed. The next bigger engine uses 244.8 grams of
        fuel per kilowatt-hour, and the next smaller one uses 258.4 g/kW-h so
        this engine should fall in between these two. The smaller the engine
        the less efficient it is at converting fuel to energy. In most of the
        rest of the world (other than the USA and the UK) fuel consumption is
        commonly measured in g/kW-h so knowing these values gives you a great
        way to compare one engine's fuel consumption with another.

        It is interesting to note that some of the more modern diesel engines
        being developed these days actually have higher fuel consumption
        ratings than these "old-fashioned" diesel engines. I was looking at
        what appeared to be a very new, modern and well-engineered diesel
        engine from China recently, and its specific fuel consumption was more
        than 300 g/kW.h for the same size engine as this one. When I say
        the "same size engine" I am referring to continuous power output, not
        physical size. The newer engine was much lighter though, it was
        actually close to half the weight of this one with its aluminum block
        and all.

        I actually suspect that these old cast iron block engines will outlast
        all of the newer lightweight aluminum block diesel engines. For a boat
        like Rescue Minor engine weight is not an issue, so I think this (and
        others of the same style but in different sizes) would be ideal for RM
        and many other inboard boats designed by the Atkin team.

        Sincerely,
        Ken Grome
        Bagacay Boatworks
        www.bagacayboatworks.com






        > I know nothing about these, but it looks like it might work, and the
        > price is right:
        >
        > http://www.carrollstream.net/23.oHP%20WATER-COOLED%20DIESEL%20ENGINE.
        >htm
        >
        > Cliff notes version:
        > 20 HP continuous at 2200 RPM
        > 1200cc single cylinder water cooled diesel
        > 4 gallons oil tank capacity
        > $696 plus shipping
        > ~430 lbs weight (from the picture, it looks like this includes the
        > radiator and gas tank, but can't be sure)
        > If it really does have that big cast iron flywheel, a flat belt could
        > run on that like the Listeroids do for their generators.
        >
        > If anyone has experience with these engines, or this company, please
        > share ;-)
      • Ron Butterfield
        On 7/25/07, John Kohnen and Ken Grome replied helpfully. ... -- Regards, RonB
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 26 6:11 AM
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          On 7/25/07, John Kohnen and Ken Grome replied helpfully.

          >> Thanks to you guys for your insight. Very helpful.

          --
          Regards,
          RonB
        • Mike Dolph
          These are very similar to the horizontal cylinder Brazilian Yanmar engines I posted picture of in the photos section. The largest of the Brazilian engines is
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 26 11:44 AM
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            These are very similar to the horizontal cylinder Brazilian Yanmar
            engines I posted picture of in the photos section. The largest of
            the Brazilian engines is only approx. 15 HP though. Though it's not
            apparent in the photos the hopper cooling is cooled itself by a
            stream of saltwater collected by a scoop just behind the propeller
            and piped to a serpentine tubing heat exchanger inside the hopper.
            The two tubes of the inlet and outlet of this show in the photos and
            discharge is usually wasted over board or used for wash water. It
            could be piped into a wet exhaust as well but they seldon do that
            there. The 15 HP engine also has another choice of reduction gear
            and electric start.

            Mike Dolph

            The pictures are under the title "engines for these boats".

            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@...> wrote:
            >
            > Interesting engines. Chinese of course. The price is certainly
            attractive!
            > The 23 hp. engine (a big thumper!) says the cooling is "Water-
            cooled
            > vertical," whatever that means, but the photo shows a hopper cooled
            engine
            > and all the other liquid cooled engines are hopper cooled. Hopper
            cooling
            > involves an open tank, "hopper," on top of the engine that you fill
            with
            > water. Water circulates through the engine's water jacket by
            the "thermo
            > siphon" effect -- as hot water rises from the engine into the
            hopper it's
            > replaced by realtively cooler water from the hopper. Some heat is
            radiated
            > from the walls of the hopper, but most is lost through steam.
            You've got
            > to watch the level of the water in the hopper and replenish as
            needed.
            > Another outfit selling Chinese and Indian engines explains hopper
            cooling,
            > and offers some suggestions for adapting the engines to other
            cooling
            > methods:
            >
            > http://www.utterpower.com/cooling.htm
            >
            > I've read of hopper cooled engines being used in Chinese ferry
            boats, but
            > since a boat floats in cooling water, and who wants steam in the
            engine
            > room <g>, I'd want to be able to adapt those Chinese engines for
            use with
            > a keel cooler or heat exchanger, or even raw water cooling if the
            boat is
            > going to be used mostly in fresh water or I feel willing to flush
            the
            > engine after jaunts in salt water (I do that with my outboards
            anyway).
            > The hoppers on the Chinese engines are removable and it probably
            wouldn't
            > be too much hassle to rig up a water pump or two...
            >
            > Hopper cooling is ancient technology. Many agricultural and
            industrial
            > engines in the Old Days used it. Here are some examples:
            >
            > http://www.oldengineshed.com/forcychm.html
            >
            > As with any non-marine engine you'll have to figure out some way to
            have a
            > reverse and neutral. Robb White only used his "Rescue Minor" from
            the
            > launch ramp to a beach on Dog Island, but most of us will
            occasionally
            > have to deal with docking, and that can be pretty exciting without
            at
            > least a neutral! <g>
            >
            >
            > On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 10:47:08 -0700, Ron B wrote:
            >
            > > I know nothing about these, but it looks like it might work, and
            the
            > > price is right:
            > >
            > > http://www.carrollstream.net/23.oHP%20WATER-COOLED%20DIESEL%
            20ENGINE.htm
            > >
            > > Cliff notes version:
            > > 20 HP continuous at 2200 RPM
            > > 1200cc single cylinder water cooled diesel
            > > 4 gallons oil tank capacity
            > > $696 plus shipping
            > > ~430 lbs weight (from the picture, it looks like this includes the
            > > radiator and gas tank, but can't be sure)
            > > If it really does have that big cast iron flywheel, a flat belt
            could
            > > run on that like the Listeroids do for their generators.
            > > ...
            >
            > --
            > John <jkohnen@...>
            > Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a
            > dog, it's too dark to read. <Groucho Marx>
            >
          • John Kohnen
            That s an interesting idea for adapting hopper cooling to a boat. I hadn t thought of that... One of the old-time hopper cooled engines on the page I linked to
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 27 5:13 PM
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              That's an interesting idea for adapting hopper cooling to a boat. I hadn't
              thought of that... One of the old-time hopper cooled engines on the page I
              linked to has a cover for the hopper so you can circulate water through it.

              http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/photos/browse/6755

              http://www.oldengineshed.com/forcychm.html

              I think those Chinese diesels may have possibilities...

              On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:44:38 -0700, Mike D wrote:

              > These are very similar to the horizontal cylinder Brazilian Yanmar
              > engines I posted picture of in the photos section. The largest of
              > the Brazilian engines is only approx. 15 HP though. Though it's not
              > apparent in the photos the hopper cooling is cooled itself by a
              > stream of saltwater collected by a scoop just behind the propeller
              > and piped to a serpentine tubing heat exchanger inside the hopper.
              > ...

              --
              John <jkohnen@...>
              After all, all he did was string together a lot of old, well-
              known quotations. <H. L. Mencken on Shakespeare>
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