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Re: Looking for Eric Jr.

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  • Peter Belenky
    Justin- I have loved the aesthetics of Eric Jr. for over fifty years, but if my dreams are in the past, I am afraid that you sound years ahead of yourself.
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 23, 2007
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      Justin-

      I have loved the aesthetics of Eric Jr. for over fifty years, but if
      my dreams are in the past, I am afraid that you sound years ahead of
      yourself. First, since you have never sailed, it is absolutely
      essential that you realize that part of the dream before committing
      yourself to any other. Start off by Googling Tennessee sailing, and
      explore yacht clubs and sailing schools in your region for classes or
      opportunities to crew in regattas. The first thing you will learn is
      how much time sailing will take away from every other activity. By
      talking to boat owners, you will also get a feel for the costs and
      skill requirements of storage, maintenance, repair, transportation,
      and launching. Though you can learn how to sail from books, there is
      nothing equal to honing your sailing skills in collaboration or
      competition with others.

      The next step is boat ownership, but, again, I would warn you
      strenuously against trying to realize all of your dreams at once. By
      this time, you should have developed a feel for the accessible
      sailing waters, the boats that people use, and the costs and
      tradeoffs you face. The three likely options will be keeping a boat
      at a slip, dry-sailing with a launch in the same place every time you
      go out, and trailering from home to one or more destinations. Not
      being familiar with your location, schedule, family situation, or
      means, I can't advise you how big a boat to get, but you should
      consider how large a crew is necessary to handle a given design, how
      many it will accommodate for sailing, and how many it will sleep,
      either under a tent or in an enclosed cabin (if you are ready for
      cruising). One compromise you should accept is that the boat be of a
      type that is popular in your neighborhood. That means it will be
      easier to find one to buy and easier to sell when the time comes. It
      also means it will be fiberglass. Aesthetically, fiberglass lacks
      something, but you can't yet imagine the cost and time that
      maintaining a wooden boat demands. That will be doubly true if the
      wooden boat is of traditional, plank-on-frame construction (as Eric
      Jr. was designed to be). Planked hulls may be stored out of water,
      but the seams will open and take time to swell closed. Trailering
      and dry-sailing are unsatisfactory. Furthermore, you should seek
      expert advice on prevention of rot and corrosion. Sometimes
      materials that are durable in a salt-water environment decay rapidly
      in fresh water.

      In the end, AFTER you have had the experience of owning one or more
      boats, sailing in all conditions, and cruising for extended periods
      alone and with both compatible and incompatible crews, you may face
      the existential question of defining yourself as the master of a
      wooden cruising boat. Will it be an Eric Jr.? I am sure it can be a
      handsome, comfortable and seaworthy boat for one or a crowded two,
      but the design is 70-odd years old, and there have been many
      advances. It will not be the fastest, most weatherly, or most
      commodious boat for the length or cost. It looks so graceful because
      of its low freeboard, narrow beam, and small cabin trunk. Thus, a
      lot of the usable space in the hull has to be under water and held
      under by a heavy ballast keel. To support that keel, consistently
      with the economics and material availability of its period, it has a
      massive, grown backbone. All told, it will weigh about 7,000
      pounds. The difference between empty hull weight and designed
      displacement, including crew and stores, is slight for such a heavy
      boat. It can be shipped on a flatbed truck but never trailered.

      A design is an abstraction, but you can't buy an actual wooden boat
      off the shelf. If you should happen to find an Eric Jr. for sale,
      it is likely to be very old. It may have been constructed by an
      amateur with inferior materials and workmanship, or the plans may not
      have been followed accurately, or it may not have been maintained and
      will need extensive repairs to rotted deadwood, cracked frames, and
      rusted fasteners. The engine and sails are likely to need
      replacement. If you wanted to have one professionally restored, it
      would cost as much as having a new one built, i.e., more than you can
      afford and more than you can ever recover on resale.

      Since you mention consideration of other designs, I should suggest a
      couple of things about shopping for wooden boats. While traditional
      wooden boats are not mass-produced, the closest you may come is to
      buy one of a series that were built by a major yard. The materials
      and workmanship will be reliable, the design will be widely
      recognized (and the faults will already be discovered). Sizes range
      from Beetle cats and Herreshoff 12 -1/2 footers to Herreshoff Fish
      class, International 600s, Concordia yawls, and so on. Read the ads
      in WoodenBoat and get a feel for what you can get for how much. If
      you ever really want a traditional wooden boat, don't buy until you
      commission a survey by a reputable surveyor.

      Because of changes over the years in cost and availability of
      materials and new fastening and coating techniques that make it safer
      to transport and store boats out of the water, however, the meaning
      of a small wooden cruising boat is different from what it was in
      Billy Atkin's day. Phil Bolger and Iain Oughtred, to name a couple,
      have carved out a niche for designs that are either extraordinarily
      refined or dramatically simplified and take advantage of all the
      technological possibilities. Something like Oughtred's Wee Seal or
      Bolger's Chebacco would be an excellent, trailable pocket cruiser.
      They still aren't as cheap as fiberglass.

      I'll leave you with a final thought: in the last analysis even saying
      that a boat is a compromise doesn't go far enough. It is not that
      the boat you choose will not be ideal for every purpose; any boat
      will be completely incapable of serving every purpose. A boat that
      weighs 1,000 pounds may be one you can trailer to a week on salt-
      water bays, but it will be inappropriate for extended offshore
      passages. At the same time, it will be too heavy, expensive, and
      slow to launch and rig to allow you to drop it in the water any time
      you feel like it. The process of learning about boats can take
      years, but learning about yourself takes a lifetime.

      Yours,

      -Peter Belenky
    • John Kohnen
      Eric, Jr. is not trailerable if built to the plans. Traditional carvel construction just doesn t hold up on a trailer. If you built Eric, Jr. strip planked
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 23, 2007
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        Eric, Jr. is not trailerable if built to the plans. Traditional carvel
        construction just doesn't hold up on a trailer. If you built Eric, Jr.
        strip planked with fiberglass sheathing, or cold-molded (maybe the hybrid
        strip/molded construction Reuel Parker favors), she'd be marginally
        trailerable, but launching and setting her up would be a chore you
        wouldn't want to be doing more than a few times a season. There are no
        Atkin drawings for cold-molded or strip construction, so you'd have to get
        another designer to work up the construction specs for you. Paul Gartside
        and Jay Benford are familiar with Atkin designs and would be good choices
        for the work.

        Eric, Jrs. are good boats, but they aren't world cruisers. Lots worse
        boats have cruised the world, but that's not what Eric, Jr. was intended
        for. It's unfortunate that Wm. Atkin chose the name "Eric, Jr." because
        she shares little with Eric other than two pointy ends. Eric, Jr. is much
        svelter than Eric, with a lot more sail area for her size. She's designed
        for spirited cruising in semi-sheltered waters with occasional open ocean
        hops when the weather is fair. The kind of boating most cruisers do, even
        if they dream of the South Seas. <g>

        On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:03:57 -0700, Justin wrote:

        > i'm currently looking at and looking for an Eric Jr. wooden.
        > ...
        > i'm wondering is an Eric Jr. trailerable? 7,000 lbs? wooden....
        > and i know i must make many compromises in regards
        > to having a world-cruising pocket sailer that is trailerable and
        > very affordable as well.
        > ...

        --
        John <jkohnen@...>
        Power always has to be kept in check; power exercised in secret,
        especially under the cloak of national security, is doubly
        dangerous. <William Proxmire>
      • John Kohnen
        A long time ago a fellow named Archimedes proved that the weight of the water a floating object displaces is equal to the weight of the object. But the
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 23, 2007
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          A long time ago a fellow named Archimedes proved that the weight of the
          water a floating object displaces is equal to the weight of the object.
          But the designed displacement of a boat rarely equals its actual
          weight/displacement. The design displacement is an educated guess by the
          designer of the weight of the empty boat, plus the weight of the usual
          crew, fuel, drinking water, food, spare parts, tools, and so on. Usually
          the designers don't realize just how much _stuff_ people can cram into
          their cruising boats, so many boats end up displacing more than the
          designer intended, and they get heavier as they get older. <g>

          On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:46:03 -0700, Dirt wrote:

          > Well here's a few things that should get you pointed
          > in the right direction. Eric jr is a great looking
          > boat, but in no way is it a trailer boat. Displacement
          > is the volume of water that is displaced by the hull
          > of the vessel measured in pounds or tons, it is not
          > the actual weight of the boat....

          --
          John <jkohnen@...>
          Never board a ship without an onion, is sound doctrine. <H. W.
          Tilman>
        • ludlowmediaproductions
          Justin, Just go buy a small day sailer, throw up the rags and have some fun man. Don t get bogged down in all the details of finding the perfect boat. If I
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 24, 2007
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            Justin,

            Just go buy a small day sailer, throw up the rags and have some fun
            man. Don't get bogged down in all the details of finding the perfect
            boat. If I was you my criteria would be something cheap to store in
            the water ready to take off at a minutes notice.

            Buy something small, fast, and tender. why? because thats the kind of
            boat thats going to be the most fun to sail if your inexperienced, and
            you will learn to sail a lot faster than on a larger boat. Also if you
            blow your whole wad up front your constantly going to worried about
            doing any damage and frankly you probably will.

            thats my two cents take it or leave it but just find a way to go
            sailing. Good luck man.

            Ollie
          • Kenneth Grome
            Can anyone tell me where I can get a propeller shaft seal like the one Robb White used on his Rescue Minor? I think he used one that was made for a water pump,
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 16, 2007
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              Can anyone tell me where I can get a propeller shaft seal like the one
              Robb White used on his Rescue Minor?

              I think he used one that was made for a water pump, didn't he?

              Sincerely,
              Ken Grome
              Bagacay Boatworks
              www.bagacayboatworks.com
            • Ron Butterfield
              I haven t seen what he used, but based on his description, I think what are shown on this page are similar: http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=3372
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 16, 2007
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                I haven't seen what he used, but based on his description, I think
                what are shown on this page are similar:
                http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=3372

                --
                Regards,
                RonB

                On 8/16/07, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:
                > Can anyone tell me where I can get a propeller shaft seal like the one
                > Robb White used on his Rescue Minor?
                >
                > I think he used one that was made for a water pump, didn't he?
                >
                > Sincerely,
                > Ken Grome
                > Bagacay Boatworks
                > www.bagacayboatworks.com
              • Kenneth Grome
                ... Hi Ron, Thanks for that link! It got me started on the right track, then I found some other web sites with even more details on this type of pump shaft
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 16, 2007
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                  > I haven't seen what he used, but based on his description,
                  > I think what are shown on this page are similar:
                  > http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=3372


                  Hi Ron,

                  Thanks for that link! It got me started on the right track, then I
                  found some other web sites with even more details on this type of pump
                  shaft seal. It looks like I can use them in the boat I'm building now,
                  and well as in several of the inboard powered boats I'm designing.

                  These Atkin tunnel-stern Seabright skiffs are intriguing to me. I
                  especially like Shoals Runner's bottom design. I know of no other boat
                  that offers such an attractive combination of features as these:

                  1- a very well protected propeller and rudder
                  2- drafts only 6-7 inches with the prop in the water
                  3- sits stable and upright when out of the water
                  4- can be beached almost anywhere without damage
                  5- can be trailered on a cheap flatbed utility trailer
                  6- is very seaworthiness in offshore conditions
                  7- uses an inexpensive, fuel efficient inboard engine
                  8- gets better than average mileage at 15-20 mph
                  9- runs efficiently throughout its entire speed range

                  Lots of people seem to be very intrigued by Rescue Minor. But as I
                  understand it, Shoals Runner is William Atkin's last design of this
                  type. This suggests that he may have identified deficiencies in his
                  earlier models (possibly including Rescue Minor) and corrected them
                  when he designed Shoals Runner.

                  This is only a theory of course, but it appears to 'make sense' to me
                  after reading performance reports on Rescue Minor and noting subtle
                  differences in the characteristics of these two hulls from the line
                  drawings on the web site.

                  I'm designing some new versions of these tunnel-stern Seabright skiffs
                  myself. I'm leaning toward hull bottoms that look more like Shoals
                  Runner because of my theory that the more recent designs in a naval
                  architect's portfolio are often better boats than earlier models.

                  Sincerely,
                  Ken Grome
                  Bagacay Boatworks
                  www.bagacayboatworks.com
                • Lewis E. Gordon
                  Kenneth, I also remember reading that Robb changed to a conventional shaft seal after hearing that the ceramic types, when failing, failed suddenly with no
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 16, 2007
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                    Kenneth,

                    I also remember reading that Robb changed to a conventional shaft seal
                    after hearing that the ceramic types, when failing, failed suddenly
                    with no warning at all.

                    Lewis

                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > > I haven't seen what he used, but based on his description,
                    > > I think what are shown on this page are similar:
                    > > http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=3372
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Ron,
                    >
                    > Thanks for that link! It got me started on the right track, then I
                    > found some other web sites with even more details on this type of pump
                    > shaft seal. It looks like I can use them in the boat I'm building
                    now,
                    > and well as in several of the inboard powered boats I'm designing.
                    >
                    > These Atkin tunnel-stern Seabright skiffs are intriguing to me. I
                    > especially like Shoals Runner's bottom design. I know of no other
                    boat
                    > that offers such an attractive combination of features as these:
                    >
                    > 1- a very well protected propeller and rudder
                    > 2- drafts only 6-7 inches with the prop in the water
                    > 3- sits stable and upright when out of the water
                    > 4- can be beached almost anywhere without damage
                    > 5- can be trailered on a cheap flatbed utility trailer
                    > 6- is very seaworthiness in offshore conditions
                    > 7- uses an inexpensive, fuel efficient inboard engine
                    > 8- gets better than average mileage at 15-20 mph
                    > 9- runs efficiently throughout its entire speed range
                    >
                    > Lots of people seem to be very intrigued by Rescue Minor. But as I
                    > understand it, Shoals Runner is William Atkin's last design of this
                    > type. This suggests that he may have identified deficiencies in his
                    > earlier models (possibly including Rescue Minor) and corrected them
                    > when he designed Shoals Runner.
                    >
                    > This is only a theory of course, but it appears to 'make sense' to me
                    > after reading performance reports on Rescue Minor and noting subtle
                    > differences in the characteristics of these two hulls from the line
                    > drawings on the web site.
                    >
                    > I'm designing some new versions of these tunnel-stern Seabright skiffs
                    > myself. I'm leaning toward hull bottoms that look more like Shoals
                    > Runner because of my theory that the more recent designs in a naval
                    > architect's portfolio are often better boats than earlier models.
                    >
                    > Sincerely,
                    > Ken Grome
                    > Bagacay Boatworks
                    > www.bagacayboatworks.com
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kenneth Grome
                    ... Hi Lewis, Thanks for this information. Do you happen to remember where you heard or read this? If so can you point me to the reference? I m asking
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 16, 2007
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                      > I also remember reading that Robb changed to
                      > a conventional shaft seal after hearing that the
                      > ceramic types, when failing, failed suddenly with
                      > no warning at all.


                      Hi Lewis,

                      Thanks for this information.

                      Do you happen to remember where you heard or read this? If so can you
                      point me to the reference? I'm asking because I thought I had read
                      everything there is to read about Robb's Rescue Minor, and this is news
                      to me.

                      I don't know much about ceramic shaft seals either. Maybe they fail
                      catastrophically and maybe they don't. I'm reading about them now ...

                      Sincerely,
                      Ken Grome
                      Bagacay Boatworks
                      www.bagacayboatworks.com
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