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Re: [AtkinBoats] Looking for Eric Jr.

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  • DirtSailor
    Justin, Well here s a few things that should get you pointed in the right direction. Eric jr is a great looking boat, but in no way is it a trailer boat.
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 19, 2007
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      Justin,

      Well here's a few things that should get you pointed
      in the right direction. Eric jr is a great looking
      boat, but in no way is it a trailer boat. Displacement
      is the volume of water that is displaced by the hull
      of the vessel measured in pounds or tons, it is not
      the actual weight of the boat. Also the rig really is
      not one that could be easily removed and set up, it is
      meant to stay up. Single hander, maybe for an
      experienced sailor, but not a novice. Not to steer you
      away from atkins, but if you want a trailer-able
      double ender maybe you could start with an Elver 20,
      sail it for a few years and then move into the larger
      boat. Just my two cents.

      Dirt




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    • Peter Belenky
      Justin- I have loved the aesthetics of Eric Jr. for over fifty years, but if my dreams are in the past, I am afraid that you sound years ahead of yourself.
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 23, 2007
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        Justin-

        I have loved the aesthetics of Eric Jr. for over fifty years, but if
        my dreams are in the past, I am afraid that you sound years ahead of
        yourself. First, since you have never sailed, it is absolutely
        essential that you realize that part of the dream before committing
        yourself to any other. Start off by Googling Tennessee sailing, and
        explore yacht clubs and sailing schools in your region for classes or
        opportunities to crew in regattas. The first thing you will learn is
        how much time sailing will take away from every other activity. By
        talking to boat owners, you will also get a feel for the costs and
        skill requirements of storage, maintenance, repair, transportation,
        and launching. Though you can learn how to sail from books, there is
        nothing equal to honing your sailing skills in collaboration or
        competition with others.

        The next step is boat ownership, but, again, I would warn you
        strenuously against trying to realize all of your dreams at once. By
        this time, you should have developed a feel for the accessible
        sailing waters, the boats that people use, and the costs and
        tradeoffs you face. The three likely options will be keeping a boat
        at a slip, dry-sailing with a launch in the same place every time you
        go out, and trailering from home to one or more destinations. Not
        being familiar with your location, schedule, family situation, or
        means, I can't advise you how big a boat to get, but you should
        consider how large a crew is necessary to handle a given design, how
        many it will accommodate for sailing, and how many it will sleep,
        either under a tent or in an enclosed cabin (if you are ready for
        cruising). One compromise you should accept is that the boat be of a
        type that is popular in your neighborhood. That means it will be
        easier to find one to buy and easier to sell when the time comes. It
        also means it will be fiberglass. Aesthetically, fiberglass lacks
        something, but you can't yet imagine the cost and time that
        maintaining a wooden boat demands. That will be doubly true if the
        wooden boat is of traditional, plank-on-frame construction (as Eric
        Jr. was designed to be). Planked hulls may be stored out of water,
        but the seams will open and take time to swell closed. Trailering
        and dry-sailing are unsatisfactory. Furthermore, you should seek
        expert advice on prevention of rot and corrosion. Sometimes
        materials that are durable in a salt-water environment decay rapidly
        in fresh water.

        In the end, AFTER you have had the experience of owning one or more
        boats, sailing in all conditions, and cruising for extended periods
        alone and with both compatible and incompatible crews, you may face
        the existential question of defining yourself as the master of a
        wooden cruising boat. Will it be an Eric Jr.? I am sure it can be a
        handsome, comfortable and seaworthy boat for one or a crowded two,
        but the design is 70-odd years old, and there have been many
        advances. It will not be the fastest, most weatherly, or most
        commodious boat for the length or cost. It looks so graceful because
        of its low freeboard, narrow beam, and small cabin trunk. Thus, a
        lot of the usable space in the hull has to be under water and held
        under by a heavy ballast keel. To support that keel, consistently
        with the economics and material availability of its period, it has a
        massive, grown backbone. All told, it will weigh about 7,000
        pounds. The difference between empty hull weight and designed
        displacement, including crew and stores, is slight for such a heavy
        boat. It can be shipped on a flatbed truck but never trailered.

        A design is an abstraction, but you can't buy an actual wooden boat
        off the shelf. If you should happen to find an Eric Jr. for sale,
        it is likely to be very old. It may have been constructed by an
        amateur with inferior materials and workmanship, or the plans may not
        have been followed accurately, or it may not have been maintained and
        will need extensive repairs to rotted deadwood, cracked frames, and
        rusted fasteners. The engine and sails are likely to need
        replacement. If you wanted to have one professionally restored, it
        would cost as much as having a new one built, i.e., more than you can
        afford and more than you can ever recover on resale.

        Since you mention consideration of other designs, I should suggest a
        couple of things about shopping for wooden boats. While traditional
        wooden boats are not mass-produced, the closest you may come is to
        buy one of a series that were built by a major yard. The materials
        and workmanship will be reliable, the design will be widely
        recognized (and the faults will already be discovered). Sizes range
        from Beetle cats and Herreshoff 12 -1/2 footers to Herreshoff Fish
        class, International 600s, Concordia yawls, and so on. Read the ads
        in WoodenBoat and get a feel for what you can get for how much. If
        you ever really want a traditional wooden boat, don't buy until you
        commission a survey by a reputable surveyor.

        Because of changes over the years in cost and availability of
        materials and new fastening and coating techniques that make it safer
        to transport and store boats out of the water, however, the meaning
        of a small wooden cruising boat is different from what it was in
        Billy Atkin's day. Phil Bolger and Iain Oughtred, to name a couple,
        have carved out a niche for designs that are either extraordinarily
        refined or dramatically simplified and take advantage of all the
        technological possibilities. Something like Oughtred's Wee Seal or
        Bolger's Chebacco would be an excellent, trailable pocket cruiser.
        They still aren't as cheap as fiberglass.

        I'll leave you with a final thought: in the last analysis even saying
        that a boat is a compromise doesn't go far enough. It is not that
        the boat you choose will not be ideal for every purpose; any boat
        will be completely incapable of serving every purpose. A boat that
        weighs 1,000 pounds may be one you can trailer to a week on salt-
        water bays, but it will be inappropriate for extended offshore
        passages. At the same time, it will be too heavy, expensive, and
        slow to launch and rig to allow you to drop it in the water any time
        you feel like it. The process of learning about boats can take
        years, but learning about yourself takes a lifetime.

        Yours,

        -Peter Belenky
      • John Kohnen
        Eric, Jr. is not trailerable if built to the plans. Traditional carvel construction just doesn t hold up on a trailer. If you built Eric, Jr. strip planked
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 23, 2007
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          Eric, Jr. is not trailerable if built to the plans. Traditional carvel
          construction just doesn't hold up on a trailer. If you built Eric, Jr.
          strip planked with fiberglass sheathing, or cold-molded (maybe the hybrid
          strip/molded construction Reuel Parker favors), she'd be marginally
          trailerable, but launching and setting her up would be a chore you
          wouldn't want to be doing more than a few times a season. There are no
          Atkin drawings for cold-molded or strip construction, so you'd have to get
          another designer to work up the construction specs for you. Paul Gartside
          and Jay Benford are familiar with Atkin designs and would be good choices
          for the work.

          Eric, Jrs. are good boats, but they aren't world cruisers. Lots worse
          boats have cruised the world, but that's not what Eric, Jr. was intended
          for. It's unfortunate that Wm. Atkin chose the name "Eric, Jr." because
          she shares little with Eric other than two pointy ends. Eric, Jr. is much
          svelter than Eric, with a lot more sail area for her size. She's designed
          for spirited cruising in semi-sheltered waters with occasional open ocean
          hops when the weather is fair. The kind of boating most cruisers do, even
          if they dream of the South Seas. <g>

          On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:03:57 -0700, Justin wrote:

          > i'm currently looking at and looking for an Eric Jr. wooden.
          > ...
          > i'm wondering is an Eric Jr. trailerable? 7,000 lbs? wooden....
          > and i know i must make many compromises in regards
          > to having a world-cruising pocket sailer that is trailerable and
          > very affordable as well.
          > ...

          --
          John <jkohnen@...>
          Power always has to be kept in check; power exercised in secret,
          especially under the cloak of national security, is doubly
          dangerous. <William Proxmire>
        • John Kohnen
          A long time ago a fellow named Archimedes proved that the weight of the water a floating object displaces is equal to the weight of the object. But the
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 23, 2007
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            A long time ago a fellow named Archimedes proved that the weight of the
            water a floating object displaces is equal to the weight of the object.
            But the designed displacement of a boat rarely equals its actual
            weight/displacement. The design displacement is an educated guess by the
            designer of the weight of the empty boat, plus the weight of the usual
            crew, fuel, drinking water, food, spare parts, tools, and so on. Usually
            the designers don't realize just how much _stuff_ people can cram into
            their cruising boats, so many boats end up displacing more than the
            designer intended, and they get heavier as they get older. <g>

            On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:46:03 -0700, Dirt wrote:

            > Well here's a few things that should get you pointed
            > in the right direction. Eric jr is a great looking
            > boat, but in no way is it a trailer boat. Displacement
            > is the volume of water that is displaced by the hull
            > of the vessel measured in pounds or tons, it is not
            > the actual weight of the boat....

            --
            John <jkohnen@...>
            Never board a ship without an onion, is sound doctrine. <H. W.
            Tilman>
          • ludlowmediaproductions
            Justin, Just go buy a small day sailer, throw up the rags and have some fun man. Don t get bogged down in all the details of finding the perfect boat. If I
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 24, 2007
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              Justin,

              Just go buy a small day sailer, throw up the rags and have some fun
              man. Don't get bogged down in all the details of finding the perfect
              boat. If I was you my criteria would be something cheap to store in
              the water ready to take off at a minutes notice.

              Buy something small, fast, and tender. why? because thats the kind of
              boat thats going to be the most fun to sail if your inexperienced, and
              you will learn to sail a lot faster than on a larger boat. Also if you
              blow your whole wad up front your constantly going to worried about
              doing any damage and frankly you probably will.

              thats my two cents take it or leave it but just find a way to go
              sailing. Good luck man.

              Ollie
            • Kenneth Grome
              Can anyone tell me where I can get a propeller shaft seal like the one Robb White used on his Rescue Minor? I think he used one that was made for a water pump,
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 16, 2007
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                Can anyone tell me where I can get a propeller shaft seal like the one
                Robb White used on his Rescue Minor?

                I think he used one that was made for a water pump, didn't he?

                Sincerely,
                Ken Grome
                Bagacay Boatworks
                www.bagacayboatworks.com
              • Ron Butterfield
                I haven t seen what he used, but based on his description, I think what are shown on this page are similar: http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=3372
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 16, 2007
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                  I haven't seen what he used, but based on his description, I think
                  what are shown on this page are similar:
                  http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=3372

                  --
                  Regards,
                  RonB

                  On 8/16/07, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:
                  > Can anyone tell me where I can get a propeller shaft seal like the one
                  > Robb White used on his Rescue Minor?
                  >
                  > I think he used one that was made for a water pump, didn't he?
                  >
                  > Sincerely,
                  > Ken Grome
                  > Bagacay Boatworks
                  > www.bagacayboatworks.com
                • Kenneth Grome
                  ... Hi Ron, Thanks for that link! It got me started on the right track, then I found some other web sites with even more details on this type of pump shaft
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 16, 2007
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                    > I haven't seen what he used, but based on his description,
                    > I think what are shown on this page are similar:
                    > http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=3372


                    Hi Ron,

                    Thanks for that link! It got me started on the right track, then I
                    found some other web sites with even more details on this type of pump
                    shaft seal. It looks like I can use them in the boat I'm building now,
                    and well as in several of the inboard powered boats I'm designing.

                    These Atkin tunnel-stern Seabright skiffs are intriguing to me. I
                    especially like Shoals Runner's bottom design. I know of no other boat
                    that offers such an attractive combination of features as these:

                    1- a very well protected propeller and rudder
                    2- drafts only 6-7 inches with the prop in the water
                    3- sits stable and upright when out of the water
                    4- can be beached almost anywhere without damage
                    5- can be trailered on a cheap flatbed utility trailer
                    6- is very seaworthiness in offshore conditions
                    7- uses an inexpensive, fuel efficient inboard engine
                    8- gets better than average mileage at 15-20 mph
                    9- runs efficiently throughout its entire speed range

                    Lots of people seem to be very intrigued by Rescue Minor. But as I
                    understand it, Shoals Runner is William Atkin's last design of this
                    type. This suggests that he may have identified deficiencies in his
                    earlier models (possibly including Rescue Minor) and corrected them
                    when he designed Shoals Runner.

                    This is only a theory of course, but it appears to 'make sense' to me
                    after reading performance reports on Rescue Minor and noting subtle
                    differences in the characteristics of these two hulls from the line
                    drawings on the web site.

                    I'm designing some new versions of these tunnel-stern Seabright skiffs
                    myself. I'm leaning toward hull bottoms that look more like Shoals
                    Runner because of my theory that the more recent designs in a naval
                    architect's portfolio are often better boats than earlier models.

                    Sincerely,
                    Ken Grome
                    Bagacay Boatworks
                    www.bagacayboatworks.com
                  • Lewis E. Gordon
                    Kenneth, I also remember reading that Robb changed to a conventional shaft seal after hearing that the ceramic types, when failing, failed suddenly with no
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 16, 2007
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                      Kenneth,

                      I also remember reading that Robb changed to a conventional shaft seal
                      after hearing that the ceramic types, when failing, failed suddenly
                      with no warning at all.

                      Lewis

                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > > I haven't seen what he used, but based on his description,
                      > > I think what are shown on this page are similar:
                      > > http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=3372
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Ron,
                      >
                      > Thanks for that link! It got me started on the right track, then I
                      > found some other web sites with even more details on this type of pump
                      > shaft seal. It looks like I can use them in the boat I'm building
                      now,
                      > and well as in several of the inboard powered boats I'm designing.
                      >
                      > These Atkin tunnel-stern Seabright skiffs are intriguing to me. I
                      > especially like Shoals Runner's bottom design. I know of no other
                      boat
                      > that offers such an attractive combination of features as these:
                      >
                      > 1- a very well protected propeller and rudder
                      > 2- drafts only 6-7 inches with the prop in the water
                      > 3- sits stable and upright when out of the water
                      > 4- can be beached almost anywhere without damage
                      > 5- can be trailered on a cheap flatbed utility trailer
                      > 6- is very seaworthiness in offshore conditions
                      > 7- uses an inexpensive, fuel efficient inboard engine
                      > 8- gets better than average mileage at 15-20 mph
                      > 9- runs efficiently throughout its entire speed range
                      >
                      > Lots of people seem to be very intrigued by Rescue Minor. But as I
                      > understand it, Shoals Runner is William Atkin's last design of this
                      > type. This suggests that he may have identified deficiencies in his
                      > earlier models (possibly including Rescue Minor) and corrected them
                      > when he designed Shoals Runner.
                      >
                      > This is only a theory of course, but it appears to 'make sense' to me
                      > after reading performance reports on Rescue Minor and noting subtle
                      > differences in the characteristics of these two hulls from the line
                      > drawings on the web site.
                      >
                      > I'm designing some new versions of these tunnel-stern Seabright skiffs
                      > myself. I'm leaning toward hull bottoms that look more like Shoals
                      > Runner because of my theory that the more recent designs in a naval
                      > architect's portfolio are often better boats than earlier models.
                      >
                      > Sincerely,
                      > Ken Grome
                      > Bagacay Boatworks
                      > www.bagacayboatworks.com
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Kenneth Grome
                      ... Hi Lewis, Thanks for this information. Do you happen to remember where you heard or read this? If so can you point me to the reference? I m asking
                      Message 10 of 11 , Aug 16, 2007
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                        > I also remember reading that Robb changed to
                        > a conventional shaft seal after hearing that the
                        > ceramic types, when failing, failed suddenly with
                        > no warning at all.


                        Hi Lewis,

                        Thanks for this information.

                        Do you happen to remember where you heard or read this? If so can you
                        point me to the reference? I'm asking because I thought I had read
                        everything there is to read about Robb's Rescue Minor, and this is news
                        to me.

                        I don't know much about ceramic shaft seals either. Maybe they fail
                        catastrophically and maybe they don't. I'm reading about them now ...

                        Sincerely,
                        Ken Grome
                        Bagacay Boatworks
                        www.bagacayboatworks.com
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