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Re: [AtkinBoats] Re:Has anyone ever actually built Restless?

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  • John Kohnen
    I ll ask my friend how much he paid for the Westerbeke gas four he put into that Bartender. The engine manufacturers and marinizers think that all those under
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 18, 2007
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      I'll ask my friend how much he paid for the Westerbeke gas four he put
      into that Bartender. The engine manufacturers and marinizers think that
      all those under 100 hp. engines are going to go into sailboats, so they
      come standard with a hefty reduction. A 1:1 reverse gear would work better
      in a light runabout like Restless.

      There _were_ lightweight 133" engines in the '30s. I've got a borrowed
      copy of the "boatshow" issue of MoToR BoatinG from 1937 that has a table
      of "America's Leading Marine Engines." Here are a couple of lightweights
      (weights w. reverse gear):

      Falcon (US Motors) 46 134" 46 hp. @ 3,200 324 lb.
      Kermath Sea Bird 134" 50 hp. @ 3200 315 lb.

      Too new for the list is:

      "A newcomer to the series of marine engines manufactured by the Red Wing
      Motor Company of Red Wing, Minn., is the Arrowhead Junior model, a 4
      cylinder, 4 cycle type, with a bore of 3 1/4 inches, stroke of 4 inches,
      and piston displacement of 133 cubic inches. This engine is similar in
      design and construction to the Arrowhead 25-45 h.p. type which has been so
      popular during the past three years. The new engine is lighter in weight
      and is particularly compact, being only 35 inches overall.

      "The Arrowhead, Jr., will be furnished in two types. A medium-duty type
      with gray iron pistons and castings has a rating of 20-40 h.p. The weight
      is approximately 450 pounds. It will also be available in a special
      high-speed type having alloy pistons and aluminum castings for the oil-
      pan, reverse gear cover and flywheel housing. This engine will develop
      from 40 to 55 h.p. at speeds of approximately 3,500 r.p.m. Weight will be
      under 400 pounds. Deliveries have already begun on this model. It is
      especially suited to fast runabouts, yet rugged enough for cruiser or
      auxiliary service. It has a 2 1/8-inch crankshaft and lubrication is of
      the full pressure feed type. Regular equipment includes the two-unit
      6-volt electric starting system and Paragon reverse gear. Optional
      equipment includes 2 to 1 ratio reduction gear furnished as an integral
      unit."




      On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 06:39:31 -0800, darryl wrote:

      > John, thanks for the reply. That was good information. I asked
      > Westerbeke if the W70GA
      > could be used with a 1:1 transmission (since it comes bobtail) vice the
      > 2.7:1 that it usually
      > comes with. They said a ZF45C could easily be used. I sent some emails
      > to a few dealers
      > but no answer as of yet to the cost. Westerbeke wouldn't answer that
      > question either. I
      > can't "just call" as I am in Iraq right now. Do you know how much your
      > friend paid?

      --
      John <jkohnen@...>
      Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after
      tomorrow. <Mark Twain>
    • darrylhammonds
      Below is an email from a Westerbeke dealer in California concerning the W70GA engine I was considering for Restless. Dear Mr. Hammonds, Thank you for your
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 19, 2007
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        Below is an email from a Westerbeke dealer in California concerning the W70GA engine I
        was considering for Restless.

        Dear Mr. Hammonds,

        Thank you for your inquiry on the Westerbeke W-70GA. Pricing is as follows:

        W-70 w/ ZF 25M 2.7:1 Transmission 11,232.00 + Shipping
        W-70 - Bobtail 8,698.00 + Shipping.

        This engine would have to be built and shipped from Westerbeke in Taunton, MA.

        If you have any questions, please contact me at 714/ 373-8099 or e-mail @
        info@....

        Best regards,

        Rod Mendenhall
        TDC Equipment Inc.
        15886 Manufacture Lane
        Huntington Beach, CA. 92649
        714/ 373-8099
        714/ 898-1996-fax

        Wow, thats alot of money for a 66hp gas engine considering I can get a brand new Volvo
        Penta 3.0L with ZF45C trans for about $6 grand! I suppose Restless is a dead design as I
        am definately not putting that kind of cash out. I suppose I need to go to Westlawn and
        lean how to design runabouts for todays motors.

        Darryl

        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'll ask my friend how much he paid for the Westerbeke gas four he put
        > into that Bartender. The engine manufacturers and marinizers think that
        > all those under 100 hp. engines are going to go into sailboats, so they
        > come standard with a hefty reduction. A 1:1 reverse gear would work better
        > in a light runabout like Restless.
        >
        > There _were_ lightweight 133" engines in the '30s. I've got a borrowed
        > copy of the "boatshow" issue of MoToR BoatinG from 1937 that has a table
        > of "America's Leading Marine Engines." Here are a couple of lightweights
        > (weights w. reverse gear):
        >
        > Falcon (US Motors) 46 134" 46 hp. @ 3,200 324 lb.
        > Kermath Sea Bird 134" 50 hp. @ 3200 315 lb.
        >
        > Too new for the list is:
        >
        > "A newcomer to the series of marine engines manufactured by the Red Wing
        > Motor Company of Red Wing, Minn., is the Arrowhead Junior model, a 4
        > cylinder, 4 cycle type, with a bore of 3 1/4 inches, stroke of 4 inches,
        > and piston displacement of 133 cubic inches. This engine is similar in
        > design and construction to the Arrowhead 25-45 h.p. type which has been so
        > popular during the past three years. The new engine is lighter in weight
        > and is particularly compact, being only 35 inches overall.
        >
        > "The Arrowhead, Jr., will be furnished in two types. A medium-duty type
        > with gray iron pistons and castings has a rating of 20-40 h.p. The weight
        > is approximately 450 pounds. It will also be available in a special
        > high-speed type having alloy pistons and aluminum castings for the oil-
        > pan, reverse gear cover and flywheel housing. This engine will develop
        > from 40 to 55 h.p. at speeds of approximately 3,500 r.p.m. Weight will be
        > under 400 pounds. Deliveries have already begun on this model. It is
        > especially suited to fast runabouts, yet rugged enough for cruiser or
        > auxiliary service. It has a 2 1/8-inch crankshaft and lubrication is of
        > the full pressure feed type. Regular equipment includes the two-unit
        > 6-volt electric starting system and Paragon reverse gear. Optional
        > equipment includes 2 to 1 ratio reduction gear furnished as an integral
        > unit."
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 06:39:31 -0800, darryl wrote:
        >
        > > John, thanks for the reply. That was good information. I asked
        > > Westerbeke if the W70GA
        > > could be used with a 1:1 transmission (since it comes bobtail) vice the
        > > 2.7:1 that it usually
        > > comes with. They said a ZF45C could easily be used. I sent some emails
        > > to a few dealers
        > > but no answer as of yet to the cost. Westerbeke wouldn't answer that
        > > question either. I
        > > can't "just call" as I am in Iraq right now. Do you know how much your
        > > friend paid?
        >
        > --
        > John <jkohnen@...>
        > Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after
        > tomorrow. <Mark Twain>
        >
      • John Kohnen
        Yep, that Westerbeke is mighty expensive! It s a marinized Mazda industrial engine, BTW. I looked at the GM 1600 Vortec and it looks pretty good on
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 19, 2007
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          Yep, that Westerbeke is mighty expensive! <whew!> It's a marinized Mazda
          industrial engine, BTW.

          I looked at the GM 1600 Vortec and it looks pretty good on paper. It's not
          just something they yanked out of a cheap economy car. It's kinda revvy
          for a marine engine, but it might work alright running at lower RPM, and
          lower hp.:

          http://tinyurl.com/2sqoj5

          http://tinyurl.com/3dc6pd

          You might consider getting a Kubota industrial engine and mating it to a
          reverse gear. If you use a keel cooler (let into the bottom planking) you
          really don't need to do much marinizing. Robb White used a Kubota in his
          "Rescue Minor" with a jackleg reverse and a keel cooler. He used an
          agricultural diaphragm pump and some imagination for cooling the exhaust:

          http://www.engine.kubota.ne.jp/english/catalog/

          Glen-L has some runabout designs more suited for overpowering than
          Restless, many designed by Ken Hankinson:

          http://www.boatdesigns.com/departments.asp?dept=9

          On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:46:36 -0800, darryl wrote:

          > Below is an email from a Westerbeke dealer in California concerning the
          > W70GA engine I
          > was considering for Restless.
          >
          > Dear Mr. Hammonds,
          > Thank you for your inquiry on the Westerbeke W-70GA. Pricing is as
          > follows:
          > W-70 w/ ZF 25M 2.7:1 Transmission 11,232.00 + Shipping
          > W-70 - Bobtail 8,698.00 + Shipping.
          > This engine would have to be built and shipped from Westerbeke in
          > Taunton, MA.
          > ...

          --
          John <jkohnen@...>
          I have no truck with lettuce, cabbage, and similar chlorophyll.
          Any dietician will tell you that a running foot of apple strudel
          contains four times the vitamins of a bushel of beans. <S. J.
          Perelman>
        • Ken Grome
          I don t remember what size or horsepower engine you re looking for, and the Restless web page only provides numbers for cubic inch displacement and engine
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 19, 2007
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            I don't remember what size or horsepower engine you're looking for, and the
            Restless web page only provides numbers for cubic inch displacement and
            engine weight, not recommended horsepower:

            http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Utilities/Restless.html

            ... but Kawasaki makes a nice looking power plant that appears to be a good
            fit for some inboard designs. These two links show the biggest (29 HP) and
            smallest (16 HP) in Kawasaki's line of overhead valve water-cooled v-twin
            engines. They have five more models in between these sizes:

            http://www.kawpowr.com/4cycle/horiz_fd791d.asp
            http://www.kawpowr.com/4cycle/horiz_fd501d.asp

            The ATV guys rave about these engines. Maybe they know something that the
            boating community does not?

            If Restless needs more HP than one of these engines can provide, a person
            might buy and install two of them. Two of the largest 29 HP Kawasaki's will
            weigh a total of only 250 pounds -- and that's 100 pounds LESS than the
            engine weight specified by William Atkin.

            Just think, a twin-engine Restless with a total of 58 HP, and each engine
            driving its own propeller. Two completely independent drive systems for the
            ultimate in safety and redundancy.

            And wow, what a hot rod!

            Sincerely,
            Kenneth Grome
            Bagacay Boatworks
            www.bagacayboatworks.com













            On Tuesday 20 February 2007 07:07:51 am John Kohnen wrote:
            > Yep, that Westerbeke is mighty expensive! <whew!> It's a marinized Mazda
            > industrial engine, BTW.
            >
            > I looked at the GM 1600 Vortec and it looks pretty good on paper. It's not
            > just something they yanked out of a cheap economy car. It's kinda revvy
            > for a marine engine, but it might work alright running at lower RPM, and
            > lower hp.:
            >
            > http://tinyurl.com/2sqoj5
            >
            > http://tinyurl.com/3dc6pd
            >
            > You might consider getting a Kubota industrial engine and mating it to a
            > reverse gear. If you use a keel cooler (let into the bottom planking) you
            > really don't need to do much marinizing. Robb White used a Kubota in his
            > "Rescue Minor" with a jackleg reverse and a keel cooler. He used an
            > agricultural diaphragm pump and some imagination for cooling the exhaust:
            >
            > http://www.engine.kubota.ne.jp/english/catalog/
            >
            > Glen-L has some runabout designs more suited for overpowering than
            > Restless, many designed by Ken Hankinson:
            >
            > http://www.boatdesigns.com/departments.asp?dept=9
            >
            > On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:46:36 -0800, darryl wrote:
            > > Below is an email from a Westerbeke dealer in California concerning the
            > > W70GA engine I
            > > was considering for Restless.
            > >
            > > Dear Mr. Hammonds,
            > > Thank you for your inquiry on the Westerbeke W-70GA. Pricing is as
            > > follows:
            > > W-70 w/ ZF 25M 2.7:1 Transmission 11,232.00 + Shipping
            > > W-70 - Bobtail 8,698.00 + Shipping.
            > > This engine would have to be built and shipped from Westerbeke in
            > > Taunton, MA.
            > > ...



            --
            Sincerely,
            Kenneth Grome
            Bagacay Boatworks
            www.bagacayboatworks.com
          • John Kohnen
            The biggest of those Kawasakis might _just_ do for a Restless. Restless wants 40-50 hp., but those V-twins are so much lighter than the old 133 cu. in. engines
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 28, 2007
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              The biggest of those Kawasakis might _just_ do for a Restless. Restless
              wants 40-50 hp., but those V-twins are so much lighter than the old 133
              cu. in. engines that one of them might just do the trick.

              BUT, there's a big "but." The Kawasaki V-twins aren't marine engines. You
              could use one in an open boat, but if you're gonna put one in an enclosed
              engine compartment, or below deck, you'll have to use a marine carburettor
              and marine electrical equipment (the electronic ignition may be fine as it
              is if it doesn't use a distributor). Hooking up a conventional reverse
              gear would also be a problem.

              On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:15:18 -0800, Ken G wrote:

              > ...
              > ... but Kawasaki makes a nice looking power plant that appears to be a
              > good
              > fit for some inboard designs. These two links show the biggest (29 HP)
              > and
              > smallest (16 HP) in Kawasaki's line of overhead valve water-cooled v-twin
              > engines. They have five more models in between these sizes:
              >
              > http://www.kawpowr.com/4cycle/horiz_fd791d.asp
              > http://www.kawpowr.com/4cycle/horiz_fd501d.asp
              > ...

              --
              John <jkohnen@...>
              We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. <Edward
              R. Murrow>
            • John Kohnen
              Oops! The 16 hp. Kawasaki has a carburettor, but the 29 hp. one uses fuel injection. I don t know what the Powers That Be have to say about fuel injection in
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 28, 2007
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                Oops! The 16 hp. Kawasaki has a carburettor, but the 29 hp. one uses fuel
                injection. I don't know what the Powers That Be have to say about fuel
                injection in boats... You'd still need a marine alternator and marine
                starter.

                > http://www.kawpowr.com/4cycle/horiz_fd791d.asp
                > http://www.kawpowr.com/4cycle/horiz_fd501d.asp

                --
                John <jkohnen@...>
                We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. <Edward
                R. Murrow>
              • Ken Grome
                ... I would simply use a semi-enclosed compartment. The USCG regs are easy to follow here. If you want to avoid using a blower and special marinized engine
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 28, 2007
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                  > The biggest of those Kawasakis might _just_ do for a Restless. Restless
                  > wants 40-50 hp., but those V-twins are so much lighter than the old 133
                  > cu. in. engines that one of them might just do the trick.
                  >
                  > BUT, there's a big "but." The Kawasaki V-twins aren't marine engines. You
                  > could use one in an open boat, but if you're gonna put one in an enclosed
                  > engine compartment ...

                  I would simply use a semi-enclosed compartment. The USCG regs are easy to
                  follow here. If you want to avoid using a blower and special marinized
                  engine parts just provide a certain number of square inches of open
                  ventilation for every cubic foot of volume in the container ... and that's
                  easy to do as follows:

                  Build a box the width of the boat over the front and top of the engine, then
                  leave the back side of the box completely open. Not only does this provide
                  all the ventilation the USCG requires (and all the air the engine needs to
                  remain cool) but it also strengthens the boat -- and gives you a nice wide
                  seat in front of the engine ... :)

                  > Hooking up a conventional reverse
                  > gear would also be a problem.

                  A cheap trolling motor would provide reverse in most situations where it might
                  actually be needed, such as when docking or maneuvering in the harbor in
                  close quarters. Most of the rest of the time reverse is not needed anyways,
                  and during these times a simple belt drive and idler gear would provide
                  neutral and forward.

                  Sincerely,
                  Kenneth Grome
                  Bagacay Boatworks
                  www.bagacayboatworks.com





                  > > ... but Kawasaki makes a nice looking power plant that appears to be a
                  > > good
                  > > fit for some inboard designs. These two links show the biggest (29 HP)
                  > > and
                  > > smallest (16 HP) in Kawasaki's line of overhead valve water-cooled v-twin
                  > > engines. They have five more models in between these sizes:
                  > >
                  > > http://www.kawpowr.com/4cycle/horiz_fd791d.asp
                  > > http://www.kawpowr.com/4cycle/horiz_fd501d.asp
                  > > ...
                • Ken Grome
                  ... I think you only need a marine alternator and marine starter when you enclose the engine so much that fumes can possibly collect instead of dissipate. With
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 28, 2007
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                    > Oops! The 16 hp. Kawasaki has a carburettor, but the 29 hp. one uses fuel  
                    > injection. I don't know what the Powers That Be have to say about fuel  
                    > injection in boats... You'd still need a marine alternator and marine  
                    > starter.

                    I think you only need a marine alternator and marine starter when you enclose
                    the engine so much that fumes can possibly collect instead of dissipate.
                    With enough ventilation (as per the regs) the fumes cannot collect so you
                    don't need the special marine equipment. At least that's my read on this
                    stuff the last time I looked at the regs ...

                    Sincerely,
                    Kenneth Grome
                    Bagacay Boatworks
                    www.bagacayboatworks.com
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