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Re: Modernizing Naiad

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  • susquehannahutch
    Hi Leo, Naiad is one of my old favorite seabright plans. I love to talk about the things... just bear in mind I m an armchair enthusiast. But what I don t
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 11, 2006
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      Hi Leo,
      Naiad is one of my old favorite seabright plans. I love to talk about
      the things... just bear in mind I'm an armchair enthusiast. But what
      I don't think I know, I think I have a free opinion on. :)

      Leaving the underwater hull shape of Naiad alone is a GOOD THING.

      Adjusting the topsides is a reasonable human thing. Just watch the
      weight and windage, which can be treacherous....

      1,2) Shorten the cockpit, Lengthen the cabin. (You mean pilot house?)
      By how much? Back to the roof stanchions? Add up the extra weight
      of materials. That old Red wing was probably 800-1000+ lbs. If your
      modern 50 horse diesel is less than that, then it saves weight exactly
      where you need it saved. If you are thinking of up-rating in diesel
      power, then you'll be adding weight where you don't need it. You
      have one more "out" on this though. Bill called for 2000 lbs of
      ballast to be added between stations 5 and 8. Shifting it forward
      may help things balance. Stare at it and think about it awhile.
      I'd personnally hold back on installing all the ballast until I
      saw her trim out.

      6) Increase the cabin height.
      As above, figure the extra weight. Maybe modern lighter material
      would offset the increased height. Windage will increase. Bill
      was shorter than a lot of us, and had little sympathy for our noggins.
      If you can't enjoy the boat, why bother? If you can't react instantly
      in an emergency without knocking yourself out, why bother? You have
      to raise the cabin from 5' 11" to at least your height in shoes, or
      develop a pavlovian stoop whenever you board her. Ballast adjustments
      may help here.

      3, 4) Move the head aft. Increase the length of the bunks. Make them
      a vee berth.
      Why move the head aft? Is this just to make room for the V-birth
      location, or is there another reason? Assuming your only goal is
      to make longer births, could you just stretch the births a *little*
      father forward, just taking say a foot of the locker space? This
      would give you a 7' 5" birth each side, and keeps the head where it
      is, maybe working out with that up front water tank as well (as in
      you don't have to move that either).

      7. Enclose the pilothouse.
      Same weight issues as above. 2000 lbs ballast is a lot to play
      with, just remember your adding weight above the sheer.

      8. Oh yeah, epoxy sheathed strip plank.
      Hmm. I'm inclined to think this will be lighter than water soaked
      cedar planking. Maybe play with the ballasting again.

      closing...
      I'm sure there's a bunch of other folks out there who have better
      thoughts than me! But I'm with you - it's got to make you happy.
      Just be thoughtful on your translation of wishes to wood!
      Regards,
      Susque'hutch


      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" <leochill@...> wrote:
      >
      > First let me say that I have NO INTEREST in changing the underwater
      > hull shape of Naiad.
      >
      > Naiad is the right length and the right beam and the right draft.
      >
      > So please don't get off on a tangent to even deal with the idea of
      > changing the underwater shape.
      >
      > What I do want to do is this:
      >
      > 1. Shorten the cockpit.
      > 2. Lengthen the cabin.
      > 3. Move the head aft.
      > 4. Increase the length of the bunks.
      > Make them a vee berth.
      > 5. Use a modern diesel.
      > 6. Increase the cabin height (or lower the sole) to accommodate my 74"
      > frame and its crowing glory, my balding head. No head knockers or
      > making me stoop.
      > 7. Enclose the pilothouse.
      > 8. Oh yeah, epoxy sheathed strip plank.
      >
      > Answers:
      >
      > 1. From the specified 10' down to ~6'.
      > 2. By (some amount) to give a bit more galley room and storage.
      > 3. Simply for full standup headroom.
      > 4. Simply to accommodate my height.
      > 5. Self explanatory.
      > 6. Should only need 4-5".
      > 7. Wanna spend lots of my retirement time on cold rainy coasts.
      > 8. Self explanatory.
      >
      > So what's the collective wisdom? Doable or no?
      >
      > Oh, remember that I have NO INTEREST in changing the underwater hull
      > shape of Naiad.
      >
      > Thanks for your thoughts and conversation.
      >
      > Best,
      >
      > Leo
      >
    • Mike Dolph
      I think you can easily do it. It might be a good idea to let a naval architect make calculations and line you out but following Susquehannah s advice should
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 11, 2006
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        I think you can easily do it. It might be a good idea to let a
        naval architect make calculations and line you out but following
        Susquehannah's advice should render up a 'fixable' boat in the end.

        I've been brainstorming Naiad in my armchair also, but as a fishing
        boat like the snapper boats used on the Texas coast. I pictured the
        MWM three cylinder, naturally aspirated heavy diesel sold in Brasil
        in it during most of my recent trip down there. About 54 HP at 1600
        RPM from their literature. That engine should need no reduction in
        the gearbox, just reversing ability and PTO hookups. I wanted to
        place an icebox forward of the engine, which would be a good deal
        shorter of course. Cabin arrangments would be of secondary concern
        but stability would be important, no make that IMPORTANT. Such a
        nice looking boat, such a great (planing by most definitions) speed,
        and by all appearances terrific seaworthyness at low speeds and with
        outrigger stabilizers probably very comfortable. When he predicts
        the speeds/horsepower of these boats I always get excited; gosh I'd
        like to be able to build one and really find out. I always wonder
        about how he computed the balance over the planing area, it seems
        obvious he pioneered the method. At the very least, no other
        designer who might have designed acompanying the speed increases
        demanded of these boats by smugglers during prohibition has any
        voice in this day and age. Who knows if some secrets might be
        rediscovered and new developments made in workboat hulls if some of
        these guys professional presentations at naval architecture
        conferences were revisited now.

        John Dolph

        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" <leochill@...> wrote:
        >
        > First let me say that I have NO INTEREST in changing the underwater
        > hull shape of Naiad.
        >
        > Naiad is the right length and the right beam and the right draft.
        >
        > So please don't get off on a tangent to even deal with the idea of
        > changing the underwater shape.
        >
        > What I do want to do is this:
        >
        > 1. Shorten the cockpit.
        > 2. Lengthen the cabin.
        > 3. Move the head aft.
        > 4. Increase the length of the bunks.
        > Make them a vee berth.
        > 5. Use a modern diesel.
        > 6. Increase the cabin height (or lower the sole) to accommodate
        my 74"
        > frame and its crowing glory, my balding head. No head knockers or
        > making me stoop.
        > 7. Enclose the pilothouse.
        > 8. Oh yeah, epoxy sheathed strip plank.
        >
        > Answers:
        >
        > 1. From the specified 10' down to ~6'.
        > 2. By (some amount) to give a bit more galley room and storage.
        > 3. Simply for full standup headroom.
        > 4. Simply to accommodate my height.
        > 5. Self explanatory.
        > 6. Should only need 4-5".
        > 7. Wanna spend lots of my retirement time on cold rainy coasts.
        > 8. Self explanatory.
        >
        > So what's the collective wisdom? Doable or no?
        >
        > Oh, remember that I have NO INTEREST in changing the underwater
        hull
        > shape of Naiad.
        >
        > Thanks for your thoughts and conversation.
        >
        > Best,
        >
        > Leo
        >
      • Leo
        All, In the files section is a scaled PDF of my desire interior changes to Naiad.
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 12, 2006
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          All,

          In the files section is a scaled PDF of my desire interior changes to
          Naiad.

          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/files/Naiad%20Modernazation/>

          Dimensions are in millimeters.

          According to my conversion program, the length of 8560mm is ~.008"
          (yes, that's 8/1000ths) from the 28' 1" quoted dimension and the beam
          of 2642mm is ~.016 (16/1000ths) from the 8' 8" quoted dimension. –
          Closer than I can see with my rummy eyes in my doddering old age! ;-)

          Translated to feet/inches:

          ~7' 4" from the transom to the aft PH bulkhead.
          ~6' 3" cockpit length.
          Tanks and storage under cockpit sole.

          ~7' 7" Pilothouse length – Admiral's seat converts to dinette seating.
          Dinette converts to guest bed, albeit cramped.
          Head is ~44" long – enough to sit and then stand up and fasten your pants.

          Engine is under the PH sole, along with other equipment.

          ~6' 6" Galley and Storage area – drawers and hanging lockers.
          House batteries under galley sole.
          Tanks under galley and storage modules.

          ~75" straight line measurement for the 2 vee berths - slightly longer
          on the angle.
          Tanks and storage under with a large overhead hatch for easy access to
          anchor deck.

          ~30" for the anchor deck and chain locker.

          So as you can see from the PDF, there is not really a great deal of
          difference between the original Naiad and my modernized version. The
          major dimension difference is enclosing the PH and its length. Well,
          that and where the amenities are located.

          After I'm in possession of the plans, it will take a bit of time to
          get the offsets into AutoCAD and (true to the millimeter) arrangement
          drawings made up. When (if) I get that done, I'll post another
          general PDF to show what actually transpired versus what the day-dream
          was.

          Best,

          Leo
        • Lewis E. Gordon
          Leo, Nice drawing, not the way I would have arranged things, but the changes look good. I have one concern from just studying the online drawings. Will you
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 12, 2006
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            Leo,

            Nice drawing, not the way I would have arranged things, but the
            changes look good. I have one concern from just studying the online
            drawings. Will you have enough width in the "feet" area on the
            V-berths without making them too high above the waterline? Naiad is
            rather "thin" in that area and I am not sure you can get the width you
            show in the drawing if you keep the berths the same stock height.

            When you get the plans and start lofting, either on the floor or on
            the computer, this question will be answered very quickly. Thanks for
            sharing the drawing with us and good luck.

            Lewis

            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" <leochill@...> wrote:
            >
            > All,
            >
            > In the files section is a scaled PDF of my desire interior changes to
            > Naiad.
            >
            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/files/Naiad%20Modernazation/>
            >
            > Dimensions are in millimeters.
            >
            > According to my conversion program, the length of 8560mm is ~.008"
            > (yes, that's 8/1000ths) from the 28' 1" quoted dimension and the beam
            > of 2642mm is ~.016 (16/1000ths) from the 8' 8" quoted dimension. –
            > Closer than I can see with my rummy eyes in my doddering old age! ;-)
            >
            > Translated to feet/inches:
            >
            > ~7' 4" from the transom to the aft PH bulkhead.
            > ~6' 3" cockpit length.
            > Tanks and storage under cockpit sole.
            >
            > ~7' 7" Pilothouse length – Admiral's seat converts to dinette seating.
            > Dinette converts to guest bed, albeit cramped.
            > Head is ~44" long – enough to sit and then stand up and fasten your
            pants.
            >
            > Engine is under the PH sole, along with other equipment.
            >
            > ~6' 6" Galley and Storage area – drawers and hanging lockers.
            > House batteries under galley sole.
            > Tanks under galley and storage modules.
            >
            > ~75" straight line measurement for the 2 vee berths - slightly longer
            > on the angle.
            > Tanks and storage under with a large overhead hatch for easy access to
            > anchor deck.
            >
            > ~30" for the anchor deck and chain locker.
            >
            > So as you can see from the PDF, there is not really a great deal of
            > difference between the original Naiad and my modernized version. The
            > major dimension difference is enclosing the PH and its length. Well,
            > that and where the amenities are located.
            >
            > After I'm in possession of the plans, it will take a bit of time to
            > get the offsets into AutoCAD and (true to the millimeter) arrangement
            > drawings made up. When (if) I get that done, I'll post another
            > general PDF to show what actually transpired versus what the day-dream
            > was.
            >
            > Best,
            >
            > Leo
            >
          • Leo
            Lewis, Excellent point and my guess is probably not. But the point of the drawing was to show that it might
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 12, 2006
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              Lewis,

              Excellent point and my guess is probably not. But the point of the
              drawing was to show that it >>might<< be possible, not that it will.

              One point on the head being aft... Rainy day and ya come in out of
              the wet, shake off the worst under the PH overhand, take off the
              foulies and hang them to drip dry in the head. No tracking wet boots
              and clothes forward into the dryer areas of the boat.

              And I'm open to suggestions - what would have been your preference for
              layout?

              Leo

              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Lewis E. Gordon"
              <l_gordon_nica@...> wrote:
              >
              > Leo,
              >
              > Nice drawing, not the way I would have arranged things, but the
              > changes look good. I have one concern from just studying the online
              > drawings. Will you have enough width in the "feet" area on the
              > V-berths without making them too high above the waterline? Naiad is
              > rather "thin" in that area and I am not sure you can get the width >
              you show in the drawing if you keep the berths the same stock height.
              >
              > When you get the plans and start lofting, either on the floor or on
              > the computer, this question will be answered very quickly. Thanks for
              > sharing the drawing with us and good luck.
              >
              > Lewis
            • John Hutchings
              Hi Leo, Lewis is right - your relocation of the births forward were subject to a classic optical illusion: we think we have the outside perimeter of the entire
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 12, 2006
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                Hi Leo,
                Lewis is right - your relocation of the births forward were subject to
                a classic optical illusion: we think we have the outside perimeter
                of the entire boat plan, but there is so much flair up front that we
                in effect end up with our feet outside the hull. The births are
                just above the water line and the boat is much narrower down there.
                Also, the plans say the births are 6'5"; you say you have now
                made them 6'3". And as I recall you are 6'2". Seems too close.

                The original head is 44" "long" and you can reach out to brace
                yourself on the hull on either side in bad weather.

                By all means, go ahead and stretch and enclose the pilot house,
                but the births really are fairly well placed in the original - just stretch
                them a bit forward.

                And if you really must, move the head topsides - or maybe just
                make a mini mud room (changing room?) as your latest letter indicates.

                Getting back to the original head...
                Raise the false sheer a bit, add a bit more arch to the cabin area,
                wear low boat shoes, and maybe you'll clear the cabin roof to be able
                to use the original placed "facilities" standing up. And Bill did place an
                over"head" hatch over the head for a couple of reasons. :)

                Maybe all your various needs can work with minimal rearrangement to the
                original layout. It's all fun to ponder. Have you considered making a
                scale model?
                regards,
                s-h







                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Leo" <leochill@...>
                To: <AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 5:36 PM
                Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Modernizing Naiad


                All,

                In the files section is a scaled PDF of my desire interior changes to
                Naiad.

                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/files/Naiad%20Modernazation/>

                Dimensions are in millimeters.

                According to my conversion program, the length of 8560mm is ~.008"
                (yes, that's 8/1000ths) from the 28' 1" quoted dimension and the beam
                of 2642mm is ~.016 (16/1000ths) from the 8' 8" quoted dimension. -
                Closer than I can see with my rummy eyes in my doddering old age! ;-)

                Translated to feet/inches:

                ~7' 4" from the transom to the aft PH bulkhead.
                ~6' 3" cockpit length.
                Tanks and storage under cockpit sole.

                ~7' 7" Pilothouse length - Admiral's seat converts to dinette seating.
                Dinette converts to guest bed, albeit cramped.
                Head is ~44" long - enough to sit and then stand up and fasten your pants.

                Engine is under the PH sole, along with other equipment.

                ~6' 6" Galley and Storage area - drawers and hanging lockers.
                House batteries under galley sole.
                Tanks under galley and storage modules.

                ~75" straight line measurement for the 2 vee berths - slightly longer
                on the angle.
                Tanks and storage under with a large overhead hatch for easy access to
                anchor deck.

                ~30" for the anchor deck and chain locker.

                So as you can see from the PDF, there is not really a great deal of
                difference between the original Naiad and my modernized version. The
                major dimension difference is enclosing the PH and its length. Well,
                that and where the amenities are located.

                After I'm in possession of the plans, it will take a bit of time to
                get the offsets into AutoCAD and (true to the millimeter) arrangement
                drawings made up. When (if) I get that done, I'll post another
                general PDF to show what actually transpired versus what the day-dream
                was.

                Best,

                Leo






                No flaming, cursing, politics, religion or public mopery. Please be polite.

                If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the plans. If
                you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and Atkin & Co. will
                take no responsibility for the performance of the resulting boat.

                The current Atkin boat plans catalog is online at
                <http://www.atkinboatplans.com/>


                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Leo
                John, At lunch today I scaled the other portion of the lines drawing that is on the boat plans web site. It did not scale as neatly as the interior did –
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 13, 2006
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                  John,

                  At lunch today I scaled the other portion of the lines drawing that is
                  on the boat plans web site.

                  It did not scale as neatly as the interior did – there were some (IMO)
                  major errors – up to 6" - 7" off from the text dimensions in the
                  description – so I'll shy away from any hint of a definitive statement.

                  But I think that you are correct. The head may have to stay forward
                  to make use of that space.

                  Additionally, the text in the description says the bunks are 5' 4"
                  versus your quoting 6' 4" – you must have a set of plans. I won't
                  until Pat gets my check and sends the plan set back to me. Prolly a
                  couple weeks or so for the mail to complete the round trip.

                  A model? 1/8th scale would seem about right – that's about 42" long –
                  and I think it prudent to model an interior to see the proportions and
                  layout. Lots can be learned that is not readily apparent to the eye
                  when looking at a computer screen or a flat sheet of paper. Well, at
                  least to my eye. ;-)

                  Additionally, it seems to me to also be a prudent thing to do when the
                  hull is done and still empty of furniture to mock-up the furniture in
                  cardboard and put it in place to see if it still looks good and will
                  function like it was envisioned. Much easier to change cardboard than
                  plywood…

                  Best,

                  Leo


                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Hutchings" <hutch@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Leo,
                  > Lewis is right - your relocation of the births forward were subject to
                  > a classic optical illusion: we think we have the outside perimeter
                  > of the entire boat plan, but there is so much flair up front that we
                  > in effect end up with our feet outside the hull. The births are
                  > just above the water line and the boat is much narrower down there.
                  > Also, the plans say the births are 6'5"; you say you have now
                  > made them 6'3". And as I recall you are 6'2". Seems too close.
                  >
                  > The original head is 44" "long" and you can reach out to brace
                  > yourself on the hull on either side in bad weather.
                  >
                  > By all means, go ahead and stretch and enclose the pilot house,
                  > but the births really are fairly well placed in the original - just
                  stretch
                  > them a bit forward.
                  >
                  > And if you really must, move the head topsides - or maybe just
                  > make a mini mud room (changing room?) as your latest letter indicates.
                  >
                  > Getting back to the original head...
                  > Raise the false sheer a bit, add a bit more arch to the cabin area,
                  > wear low boat shoes, and maybe you'll clear the cabin roof to be able
                  > to use the original placed "facilities" standing up. And Bill did
                  place an
                  > over"head" hatch over the head for a couple of reasons. :)
                  >
                  > Maybe all your various needs can work with minimal rearrangement to the
                  > original layout. It's all fun to ponder. Have you considered making a
                  > scale model?
                  > regards,
                  > s-h
                • Lewis E. Gordon
                  Leo, Well, you asked! I seem to prefer a port side helm. Maybe it s because I m right handed and it s easier to reach and grab things (a hot sandwich
                  Message 8 of 9 , Sep 13, 2006
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                    Leo,

                    Well, you asked! <grin> I seem to prefer a port side helm. Maybe it's
                    because I'm right handed and it's easier to reach and grab things (a
                    hot sandwich passed from the galley) with my right hand. Assuming a
                    three or four cyl diesel instead of the flathead six, the cabin/PH
                    bulkhead might be moved back 12-14 inches and still have access room
                    at the front. Also, these modern diesels are much taller than the
                    specified six so I would leave room for a step in front of the engine
                    box. I think you will be surprised at the height required above the PH
                    sole to the top of the engine cover.

                    Regarding berths, the text does say 5'4", but I think he is referring
                    to the lockers under the berths. I scaled the berths at 6'4" (metric
                    scale on my curved monitor face, not the best accuracy). Since I feel
                    Naiad is rather thin just above the waterline, I would leave the foot
                    position of the port side berth as shown and lengthen the head
                    position to get the length you need. This should still allow you to
                    lengthen the galley slightly. For the starboard side berth, I would
                    move the whole berth forward maybe 12" and lengthen/widen the foot
                    area into the space vacated by moving the head aft. I would place the
                    head starboard side forward of the bulkhead with a door opening into
                    the middle (walking area) of the cabin. You might be able to design an
                    access door to pass wet oilskins into a "wet locker" in the head area
                    from the PH.

                    As far as arranging the enclosed pilothouse, I will leave that up to
                    you. I live in a tropical climate and would want it wide open with
                    zippered side and aft covers. You have different requirements in your
                    climate and you know best what you need.

                    It's funny; I have grown to like this Naiad design. The only negative
                    is the 2,000 pound ballast mentioned. Weight equals HP and fuel costs.

                    I look forward to your posting construction photos soon.

                    Lewis


                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" <leochill@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Lewis,
                    >
                    > Excellent point and my guess is probably not. But the point of the
                    > drawing was to show that it >>might<< be possible, not that it will.
                    >
                    > One point on the head being aft... Rainy day and ya come in out of
                    > the wet, shake off the worst under the PH overhand, take off the
                    > foulies and hang them to drip dry in the head. No tracking wet boots
                    > and clothes forward into the dryer areas of the boat.
                    >
                    > And I'm open to suggestions - what would have been your preference for
                    > layout?
                    >
                    > Leo
                    >
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