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Re: Flat bottoms

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  • Rob Rohde-Szudy
    Hey Dennis, Roger is exactly right that L Michigan is rougher than the ocean. It s only like 500 deep at the most. That s under half the length of many of the
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 10, 2006
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      Hey Dennis,

      Roger is exactly right that L Michigan is rougher than the ocean. It's only like 500' deep at the most. That's under half the length of many of the freighters on it! Shallow water means vertical chop.

      The suggestion of a Chebbaco is a good one. They're rather heavy, though. For taking on that kind of water and still trailer well, I think you could do no better than a Michalak Caprice. 900 lbs empty, water ballasted. Chuck Leinweber of DiwckworksMagazine.com built the prototype. It looks to me like a good match for L. Michigan. At least as good as you can get while trailering. You can read about Chuck's adventures on the above site.

      Now, if you're stuck on building an Atkin design, I'd consider Big Surprise. A sailboat, but if the horizon starts looking dark you can jump up on plane and run for it at 18 mph. That's a damned nice feature. 'Course you have to build it in lapstrake.

      --Rob

      AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com wrote:

      There are 7 messages in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1a. Re: Flat Bottoms
      From: Lewis E. Gordon
      1b. Re: Flat Bottoms
      From: Rob Rohde-Szudy
      1c. Re: Flat Bottoms
      From: Dennis
      1d. Re: Flat Bottoms
      From: Lewis E. Gordon
      1e. Re: Flat Bottoms
      From: derbyrm
      1f. Re: Flat Bottoms
      From: Kenneth Grome
      1g. Re: Flat Bottoms
      From: derbyrm


      Messages
      ________________________________________________________________________

      1a. Re: Flat Bottoms
      Posted by: "Lewis E. Gordon" l_gordon_nica@... l_gordon_nica
      Date: Sat Jul 8, 2006 10:18 am (PDT)

      Dennis,

      Excelsior is certainly an interesting design, but the Atkins called
      her a "flat bottom canoe", not a skiff. With such a narrow bottom and
      flaring sides, it seems to show some dory ancestory. The nearest
      "skiff" in size to Excelsior that I could find is the cat-rigged James
      Samuel. I remember old magazine and books praised J. Samuel as a
      decent lake sailor. A little bit longer at 23' 3" is the
      Pirogue-Rigged Cruising Sharpie (skiff if under 20' or so)
      Rumbletumbleann shown with a cabin, but could be built as an open
      boat. Reuel Parker's "The Sharpie Book" talks about the sailing
      qualities of such skiffs.

      Excelsior looks fast, but the daggerboard just would not work as well
      as a centerboard for my local waters. (A very large lake with lots of
      submerged rocks and ledges.) Also, all the standing rigging would be a
      bother to me compared to the simplicity of Rumbletumbleann's rig. But,
      for pure speed in that length, Excelsior would be tough to beat!

      Lewis


      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis"
      wrote:
      >
      > The Atkins loved skiffs, it seems, and built them in a variety of
      > sizes. They waxed poetic about their virtues (let's leave aside the
      > ease of construction) with respect to their sailing qualities and I am
      > almost convinced by their prose. However, I would like to hear from
      > some skiff sailors who have experience with the type. I know John
      > Kohnen owns and sails one. Are they as worthy as the Atkins seem to
      > think? I would appreciate any feedback since I am particularly
      > interested in the larger sized open skiffs (e.g., Excelsior). Thanks,
      > Dennis
      >






      Messages in this topic (8)
      ________________________________________________________________________

      1b. Re: Flat Bottoms
      Posted by: "Rob Rohde-Szudy" robrohdeszudy@... robrohdeszudy
      Date: Sat Jul 8, 2006 11:54 am (PDT)

      Hey Dennis,

      I have a Bolger Light Schooner, which is a largish flatiron skiff. Compared to a rounder bottom you get rolled around more by waves and wakes, and they go "thump" each time they land in a trough. In return for the rougher ride you get extreme shoal draft. Even with the board up you can still sail to some extent because of the lee chine dipping low enough in the water to provide some lateral resistance. The big ugly chine log seems to help that too. This is a very real advantage because it opens up areas that would cause ulcers in someone with a keel to worry about. Deep open water should be fine on a good day because the swells are long. Where you find trouble is wide-open shallow water. Many midwestern lakes are like this - huge expanses of flooded fields held back by a dam. The vertical chop will about knock your teeth out when the wind kicks up. But a deeper draft boat might be in bigger trouble on these kind of lakes. Often the average depth is like 10-15 feet, And
      there are stumps!

      --Rob

      ---------------------------------
      Do you Yahoo!?
      Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      Messages in this topic (8)
      ________________________________________________________________________

      1c. Re: Flat Bottoms
      Posted by: "Dennis" pseudodion@... pseudodion2000
      Date: Sat Jul 8, 2006 2:16 pm (PDT)

      Lewis and Rob,

      Thanks for the replies.

      Lewis, I have a copy of Parker's Sharpie book and, quite frankly, I
      find them to be some of the most attractive boats around. Perhaps it
      is their simplicity. Maybe I have no aesthetic taste!:-O I think
      that Excelsior is just about at my length limit. I would agree with
      you that the stayed rig would be a pain in the neck, but I think that
      is something that could be changed easily. I will sail on Lake
      Michigan and surrounding waters. The difficulty here is that the
      water is pretty deep, but can get rough in the conditions I sail in.
      For example, I was out today in 20-25mph winds with the breeze
      kicking up a 1.5-2' chop on an inland lake connected to Lake
      Michigan. And I guess I am wondering how a flat bottom craft would go
      in such conditions, especially to windward. Having the fillings
      pounded out of my teeth is not an attractive proposition, to be sure.

      I will be building in the next year or so. Folks tell one to look and
      see what others are sailing. Well, here in Western MI it is mostly
      fiberglass deep keeled boats. Neither of which suit my needs to both
      trailer easily and build.

      Dennis





      Messages in this topic (8)
      ________________________________________________________________________

      1d. Re: Flat Bottoms
      Posted by: "Lewis E. Gordon" l_gordon_nica@... l_gordon_nica
      Date: Sat Jul 8, 2006 3:12 pm (PDT)

      Dennis,

      I guess that Lake Michigan also qualifies as a large lake. Rob
      talking about midwestern lakes reminded me of one teenage year spent
      in north-eastern Indiana. I can just picture Excelsior gliding along
      those beautiful lakes, heeled well over with the crew hiked out and
      enjoying the ride. The plans are priced right, it should be an easy
      build and being so narrow, I don't think the pounding would be too
      bad. I hope that you do build Excelsior and report on the sailing
      qualities. At my age and lacking much athelitic ability, I am looking
      for something with a little more beam but also in the 19-22 foot
      range. Also, I need a cuddy or cabin for some sun protection here in
      the tropics.

      Lewis
      On the shore of Lake Nicaragua
      Granada, Nicaragua

      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis"
      wrote:
      >
      > Lewis and Rob,
      >
      > Thanks for the replies.
      >
      > Lewis, I have a copy of Parker's Sharpie book and, quite frankly, I
      > find them to be some of the most attractive boats around. Perhaps it
      > is their simplicity. Maybe I have no aesthetic taste!:-O I think
      > that Excelsior is just about at my length limit. I would agree with
      > you that the stayed rig would be a pain in the neck, but I think that
      > is something that could be changed easily. I will sail on Lake
      > Michigan and surrounding waters. The difficulty here is that the
      > water is pretty deep, but can get rough in the conditions I sail in.
      > For example, I was out today in 20-25mph winds with the breeze
      > kicking up a 1.5-2' chop on an inland lake connected to Lake
      > Michigan. And I guess I am wondering how a flat bottom craft would go
      > in such conditions, especially to windward. Having the fillings
      > pounded out of my teeth is not an attractive proposition, to be sure.
      >
      > I will be building in the next year or so. Folks tell one to look and
      > see what others are sailing. Well, here in Western MI it is mostly
      > fiberglass deep keeled boats. Neither of which suit my needs to both
      > trailer easily and build.
      >
      > Dennis
      >






      Messages in this topic (8)
      ________________________________________________________________________

      1e. Re: Flat Bottoms
      Posted by: "derbyrm" derbyrm@... derbyrm
      Date: Sat Jul 8, 2006 3:32 pm (PDT)

      Many, many decades ago I crewed for a fraternity brother who kept his sloop on a mooring in Belmont Harbor, Chicago. My memories may have warped somewhat over time, but from what I remember, you really need something more seakindly for Lake Michigan. The sharpie will survive, but the crew ???

      Near the south end, a North wind has a 300 mile fetch and the shoaling bottom builds up steep waves that will at least loosen your fillings in a chop. We were sailing a 34' wooden sloop with the classic wine glass sections and a six foot draft. Having learned to sail by reading a book, we didn't recognize the red pennants on the Coast Guard Station as storm warnings and had one very rough night between Saugatuck, MI, and home. We had a road map to navigate by, and were doing fine until they turned off the beacon on the Palmolive Building at midnight.

      Commercial skippers who'd brought their freighters thru the newly opened St. Lawrence Seaway claimed Michigan was rougher than the ocean.

      Roger
      derbyrm@...
      http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Dennis
      To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 5:16 PM
      Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Flat Bottoms


      Lewis and Rob,

      Thanks for the replies.

      Lewis, I have a copy of Parker's Sharpie book and, quite frankly, I
      find them to be some of the most attractive boats around. Perhaps it
      is their simplicity. Maybe I have no aesthetic taste!:-O I think
      that Excelsior is just about at my length limit. I would agree with
      you that the stayed rig would be a pain in the neck, but I think that
      is something that could be changed easily. I will sail on Lake
      Michigan and surrounding waters. The difficulty here is that the
      water is pretty deep, but can get rough in the conditions I sail in.
      For example, I was out today in 20-25mph winds with the breeze
      kicking up a 1.5-2' chop on an inland lake connected to Lake
      Michigan. And I guess I am wondering how a flat bottom craft would go
      in such conditions, especially to windward. Having the fillings
      pounded out of my teeth is not an attractive proposition, to be sure.

      I will be building in the next year or so. Folks tell one to look and
      see what others are sailing. Well, here in Western MI it is mostly
      fiberglass deep keeled boats. Neither of which suit my needs to both
      trailer easily and build.

      Dennis





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      Messages in this topic (8)
      ________________________________________________________________________

      1f. Re: Flat Bottoms
      Posted by: "Kenneth Grome" bagacayboatworks@... kennethgrome
      Date: Sat Jul 8, 2006 7:07 pm (PDT)

      On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 21:16:10 -0000, Dennis wrote:
      > I guess I am wondering how a flat bottom craft would
      > go in such conditions, especially to windward.

      Remember, a flat bottom boat with a hard chines becomes a V-bottom boat when heeled ... :)

      Kenneth Grome
      Bagacay Boatworks
      Cebu City, Philippines





      Messages in this topic (8)
      ________________________________________________________________________

      1g. Re: Flat Bottoms
      Posted by: "derbyrm" derbyrm@... derbyrm
      Date: Sat Jul 8, 2006 7:52 pm (PDT)

      You've set out the same criteria that led me to select Bolger's Chebacco with the cruising conversion (which I'm intending to build as a sort of hard dodger).

      His Birdwatcher is fascinating, but you sit on the floor ... and then you have to get up again.

      Roger
      derbyrm@...
      http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Lewis E. Gordon
      To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 5:58 PM
      Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Flat Bottoms


      Dennis,

      I guess that Lake Michigan also qualifies as a large lake. Rob
      talking about midwestern lakes reminded me of one teenage year spent
      in north-eastern Indiana. I can just picture Excelsior gliding along
      those beautiful lakes, heeled well over with the crew hiked out and
      enjoying the ride. The plans are priced right, it should be an easy
      build and being so narrow, I don't think the pounding would be too
      bad. I hope that you do build Excelsior and report on the sailing
      qualities. At my age and lacking much athelitic ability, I am looking
      for something with a little more beam but also in the 19-22 foot
      range. Also, I need a cuddy or cabin for some sun protection here in
      the tropics.

      Lewis
      On the shore of Lake Nicaragua
      Granada, Nicaragua

      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis"
      wrote:
      >
      > Lewis and Rob,
      >
      > Thanks for the replies.
      >
      > Lewis, I have a copy of Parker's Sharpie book and, quite frankly, I
      > find them to be some of the most attractive boats around. Perhaps it
      > is their simplicity. Maybe I have no aesthetic taste!:-O I think
      > that Excelsior is just about at my length limit. I would agree with
      > you that the stayed rig would be a pain in the neck, but I think that
      > is something that could be changed easily. I will sail on Lake
      > Michigan and surrounding waters. The difficulty here is that the
      > water is pretty deep, but can get rough in the conditions I sail in.
      > For example, I was out today in 20-25mph winds with the breeze
      > kicking up a 1.5-2' chop on an inland lake connected to Lake
      > Michigan. And I guess I am wondering how a flat bottom craft would go
      > in such conditions, especially to windward. Having the fillings
      > pounded out of my teeth is not an attractive proposition, to be sure.
      >
      > I will be building in the next year or so. Folks tell one to look and
      > see what others are sailing. Well, here in Western MI it is mostly
      > fiberglass deep keeled boats. Neither of which suit my needs to both
      > trailer easily and build.
      >
      > Dennis
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      Messages in this topic (8)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

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      If you set out to build an Atkin boat, please do not modify the plans. If you stray from the plans you do so at your own risk and Atkin & Co. will take no responsibility for the performance of the resulting boat.

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    • Dennis
      Rob, Surprise might look pretty good built as an open boat and the motor left at home. If a Sharpie was suitable for these waters around here, I could out run
      Message 2 of 4 , Jul 10, 2006
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        Rob, Surprise might look pretty good built as an open boat and the
        motor left at home. If a Sharpie was suitable for these waters around
        here, I could out run the storm, just like Capt Munroe.:-) I have
        only had to outrun one storm in the 5 years I have been sailing here.
        Unfortunately, that system sucked all the wind out of the air and
        caused me to row two miles to the ramp before the devil broke loose.
        Barely made it, too:-O. A motor would have been nice on that day.

        Dennis

        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy
        <robrohdeszudy@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hey Dennis,
        >
        > Roger is exactly right that L Michigan is rougher than the ocean.
        It's only like 500' deep at the most. That's under half the length of
        many of the freighters on it! Shallow water means vertical chop.
        >
        > The suggestion of a Chebbaco is a good one. They're rather heavy,
        though. For taking on that kind of water and still trailer well, I
        think you could do no better than a Michalak Caprice. 900 lbs empty,
        water ballasted. Chuck Leinweber of DiwckworksMagazine.com built the
        prototype. It looks to me like a good match for L. Michigan. At least
        as good as you can get while trailering. You can read about Chuck's
        adventures on the above site.
        >
        > Now, if you're stuck on building an Atkin design, I'd consider
        Big Surprise. A sailboat, but if the horizon starts looking dark you
        can jump up on plane and run for it at 18 mph. That's a damned nice
        feature. 'Course you have to build it in lapstrake.
        >
        > --Rob
      • Rob Rohde-Szudy
        You know, maybe I overstate the whole flat bottom=rough ride on L Michigan thing. I just rememberd that people use Dovekies on L Michigan and they re flat.
        Message 3 of 4 , Jul 11, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          You know, maybe I overstate the whole flat bottom=rough ride on L Michigan thing. I just rememberd that people use Dovekies on L Michigan and they're flat. They do get rough goign to windward in the chop you get at 20 mph of wind, but I guess they can handle it.

          Of course a Dovekie is very different from Excelsior. That big enclosed cabin is your reserve buoyancy! The closest home-buildable design would be something like Bolger's birdwatcher.

          --Rob


          ---------------------------------
          Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • wayne_nicol
          hiya all has anybody built a Surprise ( is this two different boats-surprise and big surprise??) i would like to start one this winter. any feedback would be
          Message 4 of 4 , Oct 17, 2010
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            hiya all
            has anybody built a "Surprise"
            ( is this two different boats-surprise and big surprise??)
            i would like to start one this winter. any feedback would be awesome
            thanks
            wayne
            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis" <pseudodion@...> wrote:
            >
            > Rob, Surprise might look pretty good built as an open boat and the
            > motor left at home. If a Sharpie was suitable for these waters around
            > here, I could out run the storm, just like Capt Munroe.:-) I have
            > only had to outrun one storm in the 5 years I have been sailing here.
            > Unfortunately, that system sucked all the wind out of the air and
            > caused me to row two miles to the ramp before the devil broke loose.
            > Barely made it, too:-O. A motor would have been nice on that day.
            >
            > Dennis
            >
            > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy
            > <robrohdeszudy@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hey Dennis,
            > >
            > > Roger is exactly right that L Michigan is rougher than the ocean.
            > It's only like 500' deep at the most. That's under half the length of
            > many of the freighters on it! Shallow water means vertical chop.
            > >
            > > The suggestion of a Chebbaco is a good one. They're rather heavy,
            > though. For taking on that kind of water and still trailer well, I
            > think you could do no better than a Michalak Caprice. 900 lbs empty,
            > water ballasted. Chuck Leinweber of DiwckworksMagazine.com built the
            > prototype. It looks to me like a good match for L. Michigan. At least
            > as good as you can get while trailering. You can read about Chuck's
            > adventures on the above site.
            > >
            > > Now, if you're stuck on building an Atkin design, I'd consider
            > Big Surprise. A sailboat, but if the horizon starts looking dark you
            > can jump up on plane and run for it at 18 mph. That's a damned nice
            > feature. 'Course you have to build it in lapstrake.
            > >
            > > --Rob
            >
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