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Re: Flat Bottoms

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  • Lewis E. Gordon
    Dennis, Excelsior is certainly an interesting design, but the Atkins called her a flat bottom canoe , not a skiff. With such a narrow bottom and flaring
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 8, 2006
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      Dennis,

      Excelsior is certainly an interesting design, but the Atkins called
      her a "flat bottom canoe", not a skiff. With such a narrow bottom and
      flaring sides, it seems to show some dory ancestory. The nearest
      "skiff" in size to Excelsior that I could find is the cat-rigged James
      Samuel. I remember old magazine and books praised J. Samuel as a
      decent lake sailor. A little bit longer at 23' 3" is the
      Pirogue-Rigged Cruising Sharpie (skiff if under 20' or so)
      Rumbletumbleann shown with a cabin, but could be built as an open
      boat. Reuel Parker's "The Sharpie Book" talks about the sailing
      qualities of such skiffs.

      Excelsior looks fast, but the daggerboard just would not work as well
      as a centerboard for my local waters. (A very large lake with lots of
      submerged rocks and ledges.) Also, all the standing rigging would be a
      bother to me compared to the simplicity of Rumbletumbleann's rig. But,
      for pure speed in that length, Excelsior would be tough to beat!

      Lewis


      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis" <pseudodion@...> wrote:
      >
      > The Atkins loved skiffs, it seems, and built them in a variety of
      > sizes. They waxed poetic about their virtues (let's leave aside the
      > ease of construction) with respect to their sailing qualities and I am
      > almost convinced by their prose. However, I would like to hear from
      > some skiff sailors who have experience with the type. I know John
      > Kohnen owns and sails one. Are they as worthy as the Atkins seem to
      > think? I would appreciate any feedback since I am particularly
      > interested in the larger sized open skiffs (e.g., Excelsior). Thanks,
      > Dennis
      >
    • Rob Rohde-Szudy
      Hey Dennis, I have a Bolger Light Schooner, which is a largish flatiron skiff. Compared to a rounder bottom you get rolled around more by waves and wakes, and
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 8, 2006
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        Hey Dennis,

        I have a Bolger Light Schooner, which is a largish flatiron skiff. Compared to a rounder bottom you get rolled around more by waves and wakes, and they go "thump" each time they land in a trough. In return for the rougher ride you get extreme shoal draft. Even with the board up you can still sail to some extent because of the lee chine dipping low enough in the water to provide some lateral resistance. The big ugly chine log seems to help that too. This is a very real advantage because it opens up areas that would cause ulcers in someone with a keel to worry about. Deep open water should be fine on a good day because the swells are long. Where you find trouble is wide-open shallow water. Many midwestern lakes are like this - huge expanses of flooded fields held back by a dam. The vertical chop will about knock your teeth out when the wind kicks up. But a deeper draft boat might be in bigger trouble on these kind of lakes. Often the average depth is like 10-15 feet, And
        there are stumps!

        --Rob

        ---------------------------------
        Do you Yahoo!?
        Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dennis
        Lewis and Rob, Thanks for the replies. Lewis, I have a copy of Parker s Sharpie book and, quite frankly, I find them to be some of the most attractive boats
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 8, 2006
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          Lewis and Rob,

          Thanks for the replies.

          Lewis, I have a copy of Parker's Sharpie book and, quite frankly, I
          find them to be some of the most attractive boats around. Perhaps it
          is their simplicity. Maybe I have no aesthetic taste!:-O I think
          that Excelsior is just about at my length limit. I would agree with
          you that the stayed rig would be a pain in the neck, but I think that
          is something that could be changed easily. I will sail on Lake
          Michigan and surrounding waters. The difficulty here is that the
          water is pretty deep, but can get rough in the conditions I sail in.
          For example, I was out today in 20-25mph winds with the breeze
          kicking up a 1.5-2' chop on an inland lake connected to Lake
          Michigan. And I guess I am wondering how a flat bottom craft would go
          in such conditions, especially to windward. Having the fillings
          pounded out of my teeth is not an attractive proposition, to be sure.

          I will be building in the next year or so. Folks tell one to look and
          see what others are sailing. Well, here in Western MI it is mostly
          fiberglass deep keeled boats. Neither of which suit my needs to both
          trailer easily and build.

          Dennis
        • Lewis E. Gordon
          Dennis, I guess that Lake Michigan also qualifies as a large lake. Rob talking about midwestern lakes reminded me of one teenage year spent in
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 8, 2006
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            Dennis,

            I guess that Lake Michigan also qualifies as a large lake.<grin> Rob
            talking about midwestern lakes reminded me of one teenage year spent
            in north-eastern Indiana. I can just picture Excelsior gliding along
            those beautiful lakes, heeled well over with the crew hiked out and
            enjoying the ride. The plans are priced right, it should be an easy
            build and being so narrow, I don't think the pounding would be too
            bad. I hope that you do build Excelsior and report on the sailing
            qualities. At my age and lacking much athelitic ability, I am looking
            for something with a little more beam but also in the 19-22 foot
            range. Also, I need a cuddy or cabin for some sun protection here in
            the tropics.

            Lewis
            On the shore of Lake Nicaragua
            Granada, Nicaragua

            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis" <pseudodion@...> wrote:
            >
            > Lewis and Rob,
            >
            > Thanks for the replies.
            >
            > Lewis, I have a copy of Parker's Sharpie book and, quite frankly, I
            > find them to be some of the most attractive boats around. Perhaps it
            > is their simplicity. Maybe I have no aesthetic taste!:-O I think
            > that Excelsior is just about at my length limit. I would agree with
            > you that the stayed rig would be a pain in the neck, but I think that
            > is something that could be changed easily. I will sail on Lake
            > Michigan and surrounding waters. The difficulty here is that the
            > water is pretty deep, but can get rough in the conditions I sail in.
            > For example, I was out today in 20-25mph winds with the breeze
            > kicking up a 1.5-2' chop on an inland lake connected to Lake
            > Michigan. And I guess I am wondering how a flat bottom craft would go
            > in such conditions, especially to windward. Having the fillings
            > pounded out of my teeth is not an attractive proposition, to be sure.
            >
            > I will be building in the next year or so. Folks tell one to look and
            > see what others are sailing. Well, here in Western MI it is mostly
            > fiberglass deep keeled boats. Neither of which suit my needs to both
            > trailer easily and build.
            >
            > Dennis
            >
          • derbyrm
            Many, many decades ago I crewed for a fraternity brother who kept his sloop on a mooring in Belmont Harbor, Chicago. My memories may have warped somewhat over
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 8, 2006
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              Many, many decades ago I crewed for a fraternity brother who kept his sloop on a mooring in Belmont Harbor, Chicago. My memories may have warped somewhat over time, but from what I remember, you really need something more seakindly for Lake Michigan. The sharpie will survive, but the crew ???

              Near the south end, a North wind has a 300 mile fetch and the shoaling bottom builds up steep waves that will at least loosen your fillings in a chop. We were sailing a 34' wooden sloop with the classic wine glass sections and a six foot draft. Having learned to sail by reading a book, we didn't recognize the red pennants on the Coast Guard Station as storm warnings and had one very rough night between Saugatuck, MI, and home. We had a road map to navigate by, and were doing fine until they turned off the beacon on the Palmolive Building at midnight.

              Commercial skippers who'd brought their freighters thru the newly opened St. Lawrence Seaway claimed Michigan was rougher than the ocean.

              Roger
              derbyrm@...
              http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Dennis
              To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 5:16 PM
              Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Flat Bottoms


              Lewis and Rob,

              Thanks for the replies.

              Lewis, I have a copy of Parker's Sharpie book and, quite frankly, I
              find them to be some of the most attractive boats around. Perhaps it
              is their simplicity. Maybe I have no aesthetic taste!:-O I think
              that Excelsior is just about at my length limit. I would agree with
              you that the stayed rig would be a pain in the neck, but I think that
              is something that could be changed easily. I will sail on Lake
              Michigan and surrounding waters. The difficulty here is that the
              water is pretty deep, but can get rough in the conditions I sail in.
              For example, I was out today in 20-25mph winds with the breeze
              kicking up a 1.5-2' chop on an inland lake connected to Lake
              Michigan. And I guess I am wondering how a flat bottom craft would go
              in such conditions, especially to windward. Having the fillings
              pounded out of my teeth is not an attractive proposition, to be sure.

              I will be building in the next year or so. Folks tell one to look and
              see what others are sailing. Well, here in Western MI it is mostly
              fiberglass deep keeled boats. Neither of which suit my needs to both
              trailer easily and build.

              Dennis





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Kenneth Grome
              ... Remember, a flat bottom boat with a hard chines becomes a V-bottom boat when heeled ... :) Kenneth Grome Bagacay Boatworks Cebu City, Philippines
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 8, 2006
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                On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 21:16:10 -0000, Dennis wrote:
                > I guess I am wondering how a flat bottom craft would
                > go in such conditions, especially to windward.

                Remember, a flat bottom boat with a hard chines becomes a V-bottom boat when heeled ... :)

                Kenneth Grome
                Bagacay Boatworks
                Cebu City, Philippines
              • derbyrm
                You ve set out the same criteria that led me to select Bolger s Chebacco with the cruising conversion (which I m intending to build as a sort of hard dodger).
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 8, 2006
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                  You've set out the same criteria that led me to select Bolger's Chebacco with the cruising conversion (which I'm intending to build as a sort of hard dodger).

                  His Birdwatcher is fascinating, but you sit on the floor ... and then you have to get up again.

                  Roger
                  derbyrm@...
                  http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Lewis E. Gordon
                  To: AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 5:58 PM
                  Subject: [AtkinBoats] Re: Flat Bottoms


                  Dennis,

                  I guess that Lake Michigan also qualifies as a large lake.<grin> Rob
                  talking about midwestern lakes reminded me of one teenage year spent
                  in north-eastern Indiana. I can just picture Excelsior gliding along
                  those beautiful lakes, heeled well over with the crew hiked out and
                  enjoying the ride. The plans are priced right, it should be an easy
                  build and being so narrow, I don't think the pounding would be too
                  bad. I hope that you do build Excelsior and report on the sailing
                  qualities. At my age and lacking much athelitic ability, I am looking
                  for something with a little more beam but also in the 19-22 foot
                  range. Also, I need a cuddy or cabin for some sun protection here in
                  the tropics.

                  Lewis
                  On the shore of Lake Nicaragua
                  Granada, Nicaragua

                  --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis" <pseudodion@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Lewis and Rob,
                  >
                  > Thanks for the replies.
                  >
                  > Lewis, I have a copy of Parker's Sharpie book and, quite frankly, I
                  > find them to be some of the most attractive boats around. Perhaps it
                  > is their simplicity. Maybe I have no aesthetic taste!:-O I think
                  > that Excelsior is just about at my length limit. I would agree with
                  > you that the stayed rig would be a pain in the neck, but I think that
                  > is something that could be changed easily. I will sail on Lake
                  > Michigan and surrounding waters. The difficulty here is that the
                  > water is pretty deep, but can get rough in the conditions I sail in.
                  > For example, I was out today in 20-25mph winds with the breeze
                  > kicking up a 1.5-2' chop on an inland lake connected to Lake
                  > Michigan. And I guess I am wondering how a flat bottom craft would go
                  > in such conditions, especially to windward. Having the fillings
                  > pounded out of my teeth is not an attractive proposition, to be sure.
                  >
                  > I will be building in the next year or so. Folks tell one to look and
                  > see what others are sailing. Well, here in Western MI it is mostly
                  > fiberglass deep keeled boats. Neither of which suit my needs to both
                  > trailer easily and build.
                  >
                  > Dennis
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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