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Re: Diesels

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  • stumblingthunder
    Check this site: www.springstarter.com I have used these for emergency starters on some of the racing sailboats I use to crew on in a different lifetime.
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 2, 2006
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      Check this site:
      www.springstarter.com

      I have used these for emergency starters on some of the racing
      sailboats I use to crew on in a different lifetime. Would keep one
      oiled and bagged in case the starter went on the charging motor.

      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy
      <robrohdeszudy@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hey Curtis,
      >
      > Glad to hear you're getting ready to weld! (Remember to run your
      practice beads on scrap!)
      >
      > You're not likely to see a pull-start diesel over 5 hp. It's WAY
      more compression to pull against than a gas engine. You need a
      starter. The old Caterpillar diesels way back in the day had a
      gas "pony engine" that you'd hand start. It shared coolant with the
      big diesel, so it would warm the block. Then you'd ease in a clutch
      to turn the diesel over until it fired on its own. Sounds like a pain
      in the butt.
      >
      > You must plan to moor RM in salt water. I guess I can't offer much
      wisdom on electrolysis, since I live 1200 mile from the nearest
      saltwater. And since you can go so many more places with a trailer, I
      don't give mooring much thought. Though that is something to think
      about, since saltwater is corrosive and trailers are handy. I also
      expect the resale value would be better with a trailer, since it
      would make it more available to the great many of us living on
      shallow water in the interior. Something to consider.
      >
      > In any case, you are going to be thinking more about "how much"
      electric than "if" you'll have it. You need nav lights and kerosene
      is both too dim and illegal for powerboats (I seem to remember).
      These can have a self-contained ground to the battery, e.g. no
      electricity to the boat. Of course the same is true for the starter
      adn ignition system. On the other hand, by APPLYING a small current
      to the hull you can PREVENT corrosion. Look up electrolytic rust
      prevention. It's like backwards electroplating in slow motion, sort
      of. They use this on steel bridge pilings. And of course there are
      sacrificial zinc anodes.
      >
      > I guess what I'm getting at is that is saltwater you're going to
      have to learn enough electrochemistry to control corrosion ANYWAY. I
      suspect that if you're learning that much, it wouldn't be a big deal
      to have a gas engine or electic starter. Having an air starter is
      nice because the salt air won't ruin the starter, but I don't think
      it will make much difference to the hull. Same deal with the
      distributor of a gas engine.
      >
      > Caveat emptor, though. I live a long way from the briny blue.
      >
      > Careful of that outboard idea, though. I think it would actually be
      mechanically easier to do the inboard Robb White transmission.
      Really! It's not as simply as bolting up the outboard's cavitation
      plate to the tunnel. You need the water pump submerged, but there's
      no water in the tunnel unless the prop is turning. You'd have to
      leave the motor in gear and you'd still have dry start-ups, which
      ruin the impeller pretty fast. So you'd really want the pump on an
      intermediate shaft - a belt from the powerhead to the intermediate
      shaft and another belt to the lower unit. You'd also need a cover
      plate with shaft seals on the lower unit or it might leak air into
      the tunnel. They're not all that airtight. So you'd have to mess with
      the same bearings in either installation.
      >
      > Unless you can get a good outboard DIRT cheap, I would look for a
      cheap gas or diesel industrial engine and get some Type B belts and
      sheaves. The shaft is easy enough to ship to someone for machining.
      Or maybe you can find a sailboat shaft and log assembly from someone
      whose engine died and they switched to an outboard. Happens all the
      time. Cutting a shaft to length and mounting a sheave is easy. A
      pivoting motor mount isn't too tough either. You could skip the
      reverse gear until later to simplify matters. Just leave some space
      to install it.

      They work very well.

      John B
      >
      > So I think that if you're planning to install the power yourself,
      Robb's setup might well be the easiest for the amateur mechanic.
      There is a LOT less messing with close tolerances. Belts are great
      that way!! If you're worried about the cost of a diesel and
      transmission, just think what it would cost if you can't get it
      aligned right and have to take it to a marine mechanic after you've
      been messing with it. Or worse, you don't notice it's misaligned and
      ruin something! Like I said, this is where belts are great - lots of
      wiggle room for us amateurs to say "close enough". Under 25 hp or so
      the tensions on a V-belt are under 400 lbs. A lever with a big spring
      is enough to give this to us.
      >
      > I'd change one thing, though. You will likely want to use a longer
      shaft than Robb and mount the engine backwards. Then you can use RH
      props and save money there, and Atkin's splayed shaft will work as
      intended. Of course it will work with the reverse splay Robb used,
      but LH props are harder to find.
      >
      > Sorry if I seem like a cheerleader for Robb's transmission. It just
      seems both cheaper and easier for someone doing his own installation.
      If I were you I'd find a good deal on a Kawasaki (or similar) gas
      engine and put it in with belts. You can always upgrade to diesel
      when you repower, or sell this one when you build your bigger (and
      diesel) boat.
      >
      > Hey, where are you located? We have TONS of machinists here in WI.
      I have one in the family too. Why don't you email me privately and
      I'll see if I can hook you up with a better price (and a less blank
      stare) than you're getting out there.
      >
      > --Rob
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Do you Yahoo!?
      > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • stumblingthunder
      I do not know if the previous message went out, but pardon the repeat if this is a dup! Back in my racing days, I had on some of the boats that I raced a
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 2, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        I do not know if the previous message went out, but pardon the repeat
        if this is a dup!

        Back in my racing days, I had on some of the boats that I raced a
        spring powered backup starter motor for either the generator or main
        engine. I have also used these on farm tractors. There are models
        that are large enough to start an 8 cylinder diesel engine. The
        website for this is:

        www.springstarter.com

        Brings back wonderful memories!

        John B.

        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy
        <robrohdeszudy@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hey Curtis,
        >
        > Glad to hear you're getting ready to weld! (Remember to run your
        practice beads on scrap!)
        >
        > You're not likely to see a pull-start diesel over 5 hp. It's WAY
        more compression to pull against than a gas engine. You need a
        starter. The old Caterpillar diesels way back in the day had a
        gas "pony engine" that you'd hand start. It shared coolant with the
        big diesel, so it would warm the block. Then you'd ease in a clutch
        to turn the diesel over until it fired on its own. Sounds like a pain
        in the butt.
        >
        > You must plan to moor RM in salt water. I guess I can't offer much
        wisdom on electrolysis, since I live 1200 mile from the nearest
        saltwater. And since you can go so many more places with a trailer, I
        don't give mooring much thought. Though that is something to think
        about, since saltwater is corrosive and trailers are handy. I also
        expect the resale value would be better with a trailer, since it
        would make it more available to the great many of us living on
        shallow water in the interior. Something to consider.
        >
        > In any case, you are going to be thinking more about "how much"
        electric than "if" you'll have it. You need nav lights and kerosene
        is both too dim and illegal for powerboats (I seem to remember).
        These can have a self-contained ground to the battery, e.g. no
        electricity to the boat. Of course the same is true for the starter
        adn ignition system. On the other hand, by APPLYING a small current
        to the hull you can PREVENT corrosion. Look up electrolytic rust
        prevention. It's like backwards electroplating in slow motion, sort
        of. They use this on steel bridge pilings. And of course there are
        sacrificial zinc anodes.
        >
        > I guess what I'm getting at is that is saltwater you're going to
        have to learn enough electrochemistry to control corrosion ANYWAY. I
        suspect that if you're learning that much, it wouldn't be a big deal
        to have a gas engine or electic starter. Having an air starter is
        nice because the salt air won't ruin the starter, but I don't think
        it will make much difference to the hull. Same deal with the
        distributor of a gas engine.
        >
        > Caveat emptor, though. I live a long way from the briny blue.
        >
        > Careful of that outboard idea, though. I think it would actually be
        mechanically easier to do the inboard Robb White transmission.
        Really! It's not as simply as bolting up the outboard's cavitation
        plate to the tunnel. You need the water pump submerged, but there's
        no water in the tunnel unless the prop is turning. You'd have to
        leave the motor in gear and you'd still have dry start-ups, which
        ruin the impeller pretty fast. So you'd really want the pump on an
        intermediate shaft - a belt from the powerhead to the intermediate
        shaft and another belt to the lower unit. You'd also need a cover
        plate with shaft seals on the lower unit or it might leak air into
        the tunnel. They're not all that airtight. So you'd have to mess with
        the same bearings in either installation.
        >
        > Unless you can get a good outboard DIRT cheap, I would look for a
        cheap gas or diesel industrial engine and get some Type B belts and
        sheaves. The shaft is easy enough to ship to someone for machining.
        Or maybe you can find a sailboat shaft and log assembly from someone
        whose engine died and they switched to an outboard. Happens all the
        time. Cutting a shaft to length and mounting a sheave is easy. A
        pivoting motor mount isn't too tough either. You could skip the
        reverse gear until later to simplify matters. Just leave some space
        to install it.
        >
        > So I think that if you're planning to install the power yourself,
        Robb's setup might well be the easiest for the amateur mechanic.
        There is a LOT less messing with close tolerances. Belts are great
        that way!! If you're worried about the cost of a diesel and
        transmission, just think what it would cost if you can't get it
        aligned right and have to take it to a marine mechanic after you've
        been messing with it. Or worse, you don't notice it's misaligned and
        ruin something! Like I said, this is where belts are great - lots of
        wiggle room for us amateurs to say "close enough". Under 25 hp or so
        the tensions on a V-belt are under 400 lbs. A lever with a big spring
        is enough to give this to us.
        >
        > I'd change one thing, though. You will likely want to use a longer
        shaft than Robb and mount the engine backwards. Then you can use RH
        props and save money there, and Atkin's splayed shaft will work as
        intended. Of course it will work with the reverse splay Robb used,
        but LH props are harder to find.
        >
        > Sorry if I seem like a cheerleader for Robb's transmission. It just
        seems both cheaper and easier for someone doing his own installation.
        If I were you I'd find a good deal on a Kawasaki (or similar) gas
        engine and put it in with belts. You can always upgrade to diesel
        when you repower, or sell this one when you build your bigger (and
        diesel) boat.
        >
        > Hey, where are you located? We have TONS of machinists here in WI.
        I have one in the family too. Why don't you email me privately and
        I'll see if I can hook you up with a better price (and a less blank
        stare) than you're getting out there.
        >
        > --Rob
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Do you Yahoo!?
        > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
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