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Re: Diesels

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  • Rob Rohde-Szudy
    Robert: Don t misunderstand me, I LOVE diesels. If I could afford it I d have nothing but. But there s the rub - first cost. You re entirely right that all the
    Message 1 of 6 , May 29 5:38 PM
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      Robert: Don't misunderstand me, I LOVE diesels. If I could afford it I'd have nothing but. But there's the rub - first cost. You're entirely right that all the other supposed disadvantages are relatively trifling. You also make a good point about fuel dock attendants. I have no experience with this, 'cause where I go boating there aren't any. You have to bring it with you. Which takes us back to range.

      It sounds like Curtis needs the range of a diesel, and there ain't no other way to get it unless you feel like sailing or rowing. And if he can afford the engine, great.

      --Rob


      ---------------------------------
      Blab-away for as little as 1ยข/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • sals_dad
      Thanks to all for the great discussions on diesels and transmissions! As previously noted, I would love to experiment with this stuff, but just don t have
      Message 2 of 6 , May 31 7:08 AM
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        Thanks to all for the great discussions on diesels and
        transmissions! As previously noted, I would love to experiment with
        this stuff, but just don't have the aptitude.

        The idea of a "no-electric" installation is particularly appealing in
        a metal boat, where a small mistake can result in massive electrlysis
        and corrosion. Any pull-start diesels out there? RW had mused about
        a compressed-air starter...

        But for now, as I contemplate spending $5,000-plus on propulsion, I am
        leaning back toward the outboard concept, at least as a trial. Minimal
        cost to give it a shot, why not?

        RM is ready for some welding (but the digital cam is temporarily
        misplaced!) and I hope to get Alex Hadden (builder of Noble Cab) to
        take a look at it this weekend; maybe he'll be able to recommend a
        creative machinist!

        Curtis
      • Rob Rohde-Szudy
        Hey Curtis, Glad to hear you re getting ready to weld! (Remember to run your practice beads on scrap!) You re not likely to see a pull-start diesel over 5 hp.
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 2, 2006
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          Hey Curtis,

          Glad to hear you're getting ready to weld! (Remember to run your practice beads on scrap!)

          You're not likely to see a pull-start diesel over 5 hp. It's WAY more compression to pull against than a gas engine. You need a starter. The old Caterpillar diesels way back in the day had a gas "pony engine" that you'd hand start. It shared coolant with the big diesel, so it would warm the block. Then you'd ease in a clutch to turn the diesel over until it fired on its own. Sounds like a pain in the butt.

          You must plan to moor RM in salt water. I guess I can't offer much wisdom on electrolysis, since I live 1200 mile from the nearest saltwater. And since you can go so many more places with a trailer, I don't give mooring much thought. Though that is something to think about, since saltwater is corrosive and trailers are handy. I also expect the resale value would be better with a trailer, since it would make it more available to the great many of us living on shallow water in the interior. Something to consider.

          In any case, you are going to be thinking more about "how much" electric than "if" you'll have it. You need nav lights and kerosene is both too dim and illegal for powerboats (I seem to remember). These can have a self-contained ground to the battery, e.g. no electricity to the boat. Of course the same is true for the starter adn ignition system. On the other hand, by APPLYING a small current to the hull you can PREVENT corrosion. Look up electrolytic rust prevention. It's like backwards electroplating in slow motion, sort of. They use this on steel bridge pilings. And of course there are sacrificial zinc anodes.

          I guess what I'm getting at is that is saltwater you're going to have to learn enough electrochemistry to control corrosion ANYWAY. I suspect that if you're learning that much, it wouldn't be a big deal to have a gas engine or electic starter. Having an air starter is nice because the salt air won't ruin the starter, but I don't think it will make much difference to the hull. Same deal with the distributor of a gas engine.

          Caveat emptor, though. I live a long way from the briny blue.

          Careful of that outboard idea, though. I think it would actually be mechanically easier to do the inboard Robb White transmission. Really! It's not as simply as bolting up the outboard's cavitation plate to the tunnel. You need the water pump submerged, but there's no water in the tunnel unless the prop is turning. You'd have to leave the motor in gear and you'd still have dry start-ups, which ruin the impeller pretty fast. So you'd really want the pump on an intermediate shaft - a belt from the powerhead to the intermediate shaft and another belt to the lower unit. You'd also need a cover plate with shaft seals on the lower unit or it might leak air into the tunnel. They're not all that airtight. So you'd have to mess with the same bearings in either installation.

          Unless you can get a good outboard DIRT cheap, I would look for a cheap gas or diesel industrial engine and get some Type B belts and sheaves. The shaft is easy enough to ship to someone for machining. Or maybe you can find a sailboat shaft and log assembly from someone whose engine died and they switched to an outboard. Happens all the time. Cutting a shaft to length and mounting a sheave is easy. A pivoting motor mount isn't too tough either. You could skip the reverse gear until later to simplify matters. Just leave some space to install it.

          So I think that if you're planning to install the power yourself, Robb's setup might well be the easiest for the amateur mechanic. There is a LOT less messing with close tolerances. Belts are great that way!! If you're worried about the cost of a diesel and transmission, just think what it would cost if you can't get it aligned right and have to take it to a marine mechanic after you've been messing with it. Or worse, you don't notice it's misaligned and ruin something! Like I said, this is where belts are great - lots of wiggle room for us amateurs to say "close enough". Under 25 hp or so the tensions on a V-belt are under 400 lbs. A lever with a big spring is enough to give this to us.

          I'd change one thing, though. You will likely want to use a longer shaft than Robb and mount the engine backwards. Then you can use RH props and save money there, and Atkin's splayed shaft will work as intended. Of course it will work with the reverse splay Robb used, but LH props are harder to find.

          Sorry if I seem like a cheerleader for Robb's transmission. It just seems both cheaper and easier for someone doing his own installation. If I were you I'd find a good deal on a Kawasaki (or similar) gas engine and put it in with belts. You can always upgrade to diesel when you repower, or sell this one when you build your bigger (and diesel) boat.

          Hey, where are you located? We have TONS of machinists here in WI. I have one in the family too. Why don't you email me privately and I'll see if I can hook you up with a better price (and a less blank stare) than you're getting out there.

          --Rob


          ---------------------------------
          Do you Yahoo!?
          Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • stumblingthunder
          Check this site: www.springstarter.com I have used these for emergency starters on some of the racing sailboats I use to crew on in a different lifetime.
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 2, 2006
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            Check this site:
            www.springstarter.com

            I have used these for emergency starters on some of the racing
            sailboats I use to crew on in a different lifetime. Would keep one
            oiled and bagged in case the starter went on the charging motor.

            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy
            <robrohdeszudy@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hey Curtis,
            >
            > Glad to hear you're getting ready to weld! (Remember to run your
            practice beads on scrap!)
            >
            > You're not likely to see a pull-start diesel over 5 hp. It's WAY
            more compression to pull against than a gas engine. You need a
            starter. The old Caterpillar diesels way back in the day had a
            gas "pony engine" that you'd hand start. It shared coolant with the
            big diesel, so it would warm the block. Then you'd ease in a clutch
            to turn the diesel over until it fired on its own. Sounds like a pain
            in the butt.
            >
            > You must plan to moor RM in salt water. I guess I can't offer much
            wisdom on electrolysis, since I live 1200 mile from the nearest
            saltwater. And since you can go so many more places with a trailer, I
            don't give mooring much thought. Though that is something to think
            about, since saltwater is corrosive and trailers are handy. I also
            expect the resale value would be better with a trailer, since it
            would make it more available to the great many of us living on
            shallow water in the interior. Something to consider.
            >
            > In any case, you are going to be thinking more about "how much"
            electric than "if" you'll have it. You need nav lights and kerosene
            is both too dim and illegal for powerboats (I seem to remember).
            These can have a self-contained ground to the battery, e.g. no
            electricity to the boat. Of course the same is true for the starter
            adn ignition system. On the other hand, by APPLYING a small current
            to the hull you can PREVENT corrosion. Look up electrolytic rust
            prevention. It's like backwards electroplating in slow motion, sort
            of. They use this on steel bridge pilings. And of course there are
            sacrificial zinc anodes.
            >
            > I guess what I'm getting at is that is saltwater you're going to
            have to learn enough electrochemistry to control corrosion ANYWAY. I
            suspect that if you're learning that much, it wouldn't be a big deal
            to have a gas engine or electic starter. Having an air starter is
            nice because the salt air won't ruin the starter, but I don't think
            it will make much difference to the hull. Same deal with the
            distributor of a gas engine.
            >
            > Caveat emptor, though. I live a long way from the briny blue.
            >
            > Careful of that outboard idea, though. I think it would actually be
            mechanically easier to do the inboard Robb White transmission.
            Really! It's not as simply as bolting up the outboard's cavitation
            plate to the tunnel. You need the water pump submerged, but there's
            no water in the tunnel unless the prop is turning. You'd have to
            leave the motor in gear and you'd still have dry start-ups, which
            ruin the impeller pretty fast. So you'd really want the pump on an
            intermediate shaft - a belt from the powerhead to the intermediate
            shaft and another belt to the lower unit. You'd also need a cover
            plate with shaft seals on the lower unit or it might leak air into
            the tunnel. They're not all that airtight. So you'd have to mess with
            the same bearings in either installation.
            >
            > Unless you can get a good outboard DIRT cheap, I would look for a
            cheap gas or diesel industrial engine and get some Type B belts and
            sheaves. The shaft is easy enough to ship to someone for machining.
            Or maybe you can find a sailboat shaft and log assembly from someone
            whose engine died and they switched to an outboard. Happens all the
            time. Cutting a shaft to length and mounting a sheave is easy. A
            pivoting motor mount isn't too tough either. You could skip the
            reverse gear until later to simplify matters. Just leave some space
            to install it.

            They work very well.

            John B
            >
            > So I think that if you're planning to install the power yourself,
            Robb's setup might well be the easiest for the amateur mechanic.
            There is a LOT less messing with close tolerances. Belts are great
            that way!! If you're worried about the cost of a diesel and
            transmission, just think what it would cost if you can't get it
            aligned right and have to take it to a marine mechanic after you've
            been messing with it. Or worse, you don't notice it's misaligned and
            ruin something! Like I said, this is where belts are great - lots of
            wiggle room for us amateurs to say "close enough". Under 25 hp or so
            the tensions on a V-belt are under 400 lbs. A lever with a big spring
            is enough to give this to us.
            >
            > I'd change one thing, though. You will likely want to use a longer
            shaft than Robb and mount the engine backwards. Then you can use RH
            props and save money there, and Atkin's splayed shaft will work as
            intended. Of course it will work with the reverse splay Robb used,
            but LH props are harder to find.
            >
            > Sorry if I seem like a cheerleader for Robb's transmission. It just
            seems both cheaper and easier for someone doing his own installation.
            If I were you I'd find a good deal on a Kawasaki (or similar) gas
            engine and put it in with belts. You can always upgrade to diesel
            when you repower, or sell this one when you build your bigger (and
            diesel) boat.
            >
            > Hey, where are you located? We have TONS of machinists here in WI.
            I have one in the family too. Why don't you email me privately and
            I'll see if I can hook you up with a better price (and a less blank
            stare) than you're getting out there.
            >
            > --Rob
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • stumblingthunder
            I do not know if the previous message went out, but pardon the repeat if this is a dup! Back in my racing days, I had on some of the boats that I raced a
            Message 5 of 6 , Jun 2, 2006
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              I do not know if the previous message went out, but pardon the repeat
              if this is a dup!

              Back in my racing days, I had on some of the boats that I raced a
              spring powered backup starter motor for either the generator or main
              engine. I have also used these on farm tractors. There are models
              that are large enough to start an 8 cylinder diesel engine. The
              website for this is:

              www.springstarter.com

              Brings back wonderful memories!

              John B.

              --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy
              <robrohdeszudy@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Curtis,
              >
              > Glad to hear you're getting ready to weld! (Remember to run your
              practice beads on scrap!)
              >
              > You're not likely to see a pull-start diesel over 5 hp. It's WAY
              more compression to pull against than a gas engine. You need a
              starter. The old Caterpillar diesels way back in the day had a
              gas "pony engine" that you'd hand start. It shared coolant with the
              big diesel, so it would warm the block. Then you'd ease in a clutch
              to turn the diesel over until it fired on its own. Sounds like a pain
              in the butt.
              >
              > You must plan to moor RM in salt water. I guess I can't offer much
              wisdom on electrolysis, since I live 1200 mile from the nearest
              saltwater. And since you can go so many more places with a trailer, I
              don't give mooring much thought. Though that is something to think
              about, since saltwater is corrosive and trailers are handy. I also
              expect the resale value would be better with a trailer, since it
              would make it more available to the great many of us living on
              shallow water in the interior. Something to consider.
              >
              > In any case, you are going to be thinking more about "how much"
              electric than "if" you'll have it. You need nav lights and kerosene
              is both too dim and illegal for powerboats (I seem to remember).
              These can have a self-contained ground to the battery, e.g. no
              electricity to the boat. Of course the same is true for the starter
              adn ignition system. On the other hand, by APPLYING a small current
              to the hull you can PREVENT corrosion. Look up electrolytic rust
              prevention. It's like backwards electroplating in slow motion, sort
              of. They use this on steel bridge pilings. And of course there are
              sacrificial zinc anodes.
              >
              > I guess what I'm getting at is that is saltwater you're going to
              have to learn enough electrochemistry to control corrosion ANYWAY. I
              suspect that if you're learning that much, it wouldn't be a big deal
              to have a gas engine or electic starter. Having an air starter is
              nice because the salt air won't ruin the starter, but I don't think
              it will make much difference to the hull. Same deal with the
              distributor of a gas engine.
              >
              > Caveat emptor, though. I live a long way from the briny blue.
              >
              > Careful of that outboard idea, though. I think it would actually be
              mechanically easier to do the inboard Robb White transmission.
              Really! It's not as simply as bolting up the outboard's cavitation
              plate to the tunnel. You need the water pump submerged, but there's
              no water in the tunnel unless the prop is turning. You'd have to
              leave the motor in gear and you'd still have dry start-ups, which
              ruin the impeller pretty fast. So you'd really want the pump on an
              intermediate shaft - a belt from the powerhead to the intermediate
              shaft and another belt to the lower unit. You'd also need a cover
              plate with shaft seals on the lower unit or it might leak air into
              the tunnel. They're not all that airtight. So you'd have to mess with
              the same bearings in either installation.
              >
              > Unless you can get a good outboard DIRT cheap, I would look for a
              cheap gas or diesel industrial engine and get some Type B belts and
              sheaves. The shaft is easy enough to ship to someone for machining.
              Or maybe you can find a sailboat shaft and log assembly from someone
              whose engine died and they switched to an outboard. Happens all the
              time. Cutting a shaft to length and mounting a sheave is easy. A
              pivoting motor mount isn't too tough either. You could skip the
              reverse gear until later to simplify matters. Just leave some space
              to install it.
              >
              > So I think that if you're planning to install the power yourself,
              Robb's setup might well be the easiest for the amateur mechanic.
              There is a LOT less messing with close tolerances. Belts are great
              that way!! If you're worried about the cost of a diesel and
              transmission, just think what it would cost if you can't get it
              aligned right and have to take it to a marine mechanic after you've
              been messing with it. Or worse, you don't notice it's misaligned and
              ruin something! Like I said, this is where belts are great - lots of
              wiggle room for us amateurs to say "close enough". Under 25 hp or so
              the tensions on a V-belt are under 400 lbs. A lever with a big spring
              is enough to give this to us.
              >
              > I'd change one thing, though. You will likely want to use a longer
              shaft than Robb and mount the engine backwards. Then you can use RH
              props and save money there, and Atkin's splayed shaft will work as
              intended. Of course it will work with the reverse splay Robb used,
              but LH props are harder to find.
              >
              > Sorry if I seem like a cheerleader for Robb's transmission. It just
              seems both cheaper and easier for someone doing his own installation.
              If I were you I'd find a good deal on a Kawasaki (or similar) gas
              engine and put it in with belts. You can always upgrade to diesel
              when you repower, or sell this one when you build your bigger (and
              diesel) boat.
              >
              > Hey, where are you located? We have TONS of machinists here in WI.
              I have one in the family too. Why don't you email me privately and
              I'll see if I can hook you up with a better price (and a less blank
              stare) than you're getting out there.
              >
              > --Rob
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Do you Yahoo!?
              > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Greg Clever
              Kreagen auto parts in CA Has very nice looking (LIke a Honda) Champion OHV 6.5HP, 45 degree, single cylinderair cooled stationary engines - pull start and gas
              Message 6 of 6 , Jun 2, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Kreagen auto parts in CA Has very nice looking (LIke a Honda)
                Champion OHV 6.5HP, 45 degree, single cylinderair cooled stationary
                engines - pull start and gas tank included - for $199.00.
                Put that in your boat and smoke it!

                GC Argher.

                On Jun 2, 2006, at 10:48 AM, Rob Rohde-Szudy wrote:

                > Hey Curtis,
                >
                > Glad to hear you're getting ready to weld! (Remember to run your
                > practice beads on scrap!)
                >
                > You're not likely to see a pull-start diesel over 5 hp. It's WAY
                > more compression to pull against than a gas engine. You need a
                > starter. The old Caterpillar diesels way back in the day had a gas
                > "pony engine" that you'd hand start. It shared coolant with the big
                > diesel, so it would warm the block. Then you'd ease in a clutch to
                > turn the diesel over until it fired on its own. Sounds like a pain
                > in the butt.
                >
                > You must plan to moor RM in salt water. I guess I can't offer much
                > wisdom on electrolysis, since I live 1200 mile from the nearest
                > saltwater. And since you can go so many more places with a trailer,
                > I don't give mooring much thought. Though that is something to
                > think about, since saltwater is corrosive and trailers are handy. I
                > also expect the resale value would be better with a trailer, since
                > it would make it more available to the great many of us living on
                > shallow water in the interior. Something to consider.
                >
                > In any case, you are going to be thinking more about "how much"
                > electric than "if" you'll have it. You need nav lights and kerosene
                > is both too dim and illegal for powerboats (I seem to remember).
                > These can have a self-contained ground to the battery, e.g. no
                > electricity to the boat. Of course the same is true for the starter
                > adn ignition system. On the other hand, by APPLYING a small current
                > to the hull you can PREVENT corrosion. Look up electrolytic rust
                > prevention. It's like backwards electroplating in slow motion, sort
                > of. They use this on steel bridge pilings. And of course there are
                > sacrificial zinc anodes.
                >
                > I guess what I'm getting at is that is saltwater you're going to
                > have to learn enough electrochemistry to control corrosion ANYWAY.
                > I suspect that if you're learning that much, it wouldn't be a big
                > deal to have a gas engine or electic starter. Having an air starter
                > is nice because the salt air won't ruin the starter, but I don't
                > think it will make much difference to the hull. Same deal with the
                > distributor of a gas engine.
                >
                > Caveat emptor, though. I live a long way from the briny blue.
                >
                > Careful of that outboard idea, though. I think it would actually be
                > mechanically easier to do the inboard Robb White transmission.
                > Really! It's not as simply as bolting up the outboard's cavitation
                > plate to the tunnel. You need the water pump submerged, but there's
                > no water in the tunnel unless the prop is turning. You'd have to
                > leave the motor in gear and you'd still have dry start-ups, which
                > ruin the impeller pretty fast. So you'd really want the pump on an
                > intermediate shaft - a belt from the powerhead to the intermediate
                > shaft and another belt to the lower unit. You'd also need a cover
                > plate with shaft seals on the lower unit or it might leak air into
                > the tunnel. They're not all that airtight. So you'd have to mess
                > with the same bearings in either installation.
                >
                > Unless you can get a good outboard DIRT cheap, I would look for a
                > cheap gas or diesel industrial engine and get some Type B belts and
                > sheaves. The shaft is easy enough to ship to someone for machining.
                > Or maybe you can find a sailboat shaft and log assembly from
                > someone whose engine died and they switched to an outboard. Happens
                > all the time. Cutting a shaft to length and mounting a sheave is
                > easy. A pivoting motor mount isn't too tough either. You could skip
                > the reverse gear until later to simplify matters. Just leave some
                > space to install it.
                >
                > So I think that if you're planning to install the power yourself,
                > Robb's setup might well be the easiest for the amateur mechanic.
                > There is a LOT less messing with close tolerances. Belts are great
                > that way!! If you're worried about the cost of a diesel and
                > transmission, just think what it would cost if you can't get it
                > aligned right and have to take it to a marine mechanic after you've
                > been messing with it. Or worse, you don't notice it's misaligned
                > and ruin something! Like I said, this is where belts are great -
                > lots of wiggle room for us amateurs to say "close enough". Under 25
                > hp or so the tensions on a V-belt are under 400 lbs. A lever with a
                > big spring is enough to give this to us.
                >
                > I'd change one thing, though. You will likely want to use a longer
                > shaft than Robb and mount the engine backwards. Then you can use RH
                > props and save money there, and Atkin's splayed shaft will work as
                > intended. Of course it will work with the reverse splay Robb used,
                > but LH props are harder to find.
                >
                > Sorry if I seem like a cheerleader for Robb's transmission. It just
                > seems both cheaper and easier for someone doing his own
                > installation. If I were you I'd find a good deal on a Kawasaki (or
                > similar) gas engine and put it in with belts. You can always
                > upgrade to diesel when you repower, or sell this one when you build
                > your bigger (and diesel) boat.
                >
                > Hey, where are you located? We have TONS of machinists here in WI.
                > I have one in the family too. Why don't you email me privately and
                > I'll see if I can hook you up with a better price (and a less blank
                > stare) than you're getting out there.
                >
                > --Rob
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
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