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MARTHA GREEN

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  • mike
    HI AM LOOKING FOR ANY INFORMATION FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE BUILDING A MARTHA GREEN, OR HAVE BUILT ONE IN THE PAST. I M INTERESTED IN BUILDING ONE MY SELF SOME DAY
    Message 1 of 6 , May 20, 2006
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      HI AM LOOKING FOR ANY INFORMATION FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE BUILDING A
      MARTHA GREEN, OR HAVE BUILT ONE IN THE PAST. I'M INTERESTED IN
      BUILDING ONE MY SELF SOME DAY AND HAVE SOME QUESTIONS AS TO EXTENDING
      THE LOA TO SAY 32 FT AND MAYBE BUILDING HER WITH PLYWOOD
    • David
      Mike, I ve been a bit enamoured of MG myself, ever since John Kohnen pointed her out to me last year in the Atkin booth at the Pt. Townsend Wooden Boat
      Message 2 of 6 , May 21, 2006
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        Mike,

        I've been a bit enamoured of MG myself, ever since John Kohnen pointed
        her out to me last year in the Atkin booth at the Pt. Townsend Wooden
        Boat Festival (see John, how influential even your most casual
        comments can be?). AFIK, there have not been many built. The Atkin
        website (you know you can access it from the front page of this
        group?) includes fotos. You can also use the "search" box at the top
        of the page here for prior discussions regarding this nifty design.
        Perhaps some of the previous discussion will shed some light on the
        issues on your mind.

        Regarding building in plywood, I would expect that would be no
        problem. Regarding a stretch, the common rule of thumb is that you can
        stretch most designs up to 10% by spreadubg out the frames/bulkeads
        that much. However, each design is different, and some are more
        amenable to such treatment than others. The wisest course is to
        consult the designer before attempting it. If you figure out a way to
        do so in this case, let us know. That'd be impressive. Barring that,
        I'll offer my (highly suspect, uninformed, and ignorant) impression
        that MG would be OK to stretch a bit. Perhaps John K. has better
        information on these two issues. If you do proceed, please keep us
        informed, and post fotos, post fotos, repeat after me... post fotos.

        Cheers,
        David Graybeal
        Portland, OR

        "The second mouse gets the cheese"

        *******************

        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "mike" <circvildawg@...> wrote:
        >
        > HI AM LOOKING FOR ANY INFORMATION FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE BUILDING A
        > MARTHA GREEN, OR HAVE BUILT ONE IN THE PAST. I'M INTERESTED IN
        > BUILDING ONE MY SELF SOME DAY AND HAVE SOME QUESTIONS AS TO EXTENDING
        > THE LOA TO SAY 32 FT AND MAYBE BUILDING HER WITH PLYWOOD
        >
      • mike
        ... pointed ... Wooden ... top ... can ... to ... that, ... fotos. ... EXTENDING ... thanks for the advice this will probably be a long term goal if i get a
        Message 3 of 6 , May 21, 2006
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          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
          >
          > Mike,
          >
          > I've been a bit enamoured of MG myself, ever since John Kohnen
          pointed
          > her out to me last year in the Atkin booth at the Pt. Townsend
          Wooden
          > Boat Festival (see John, how influential even your most casual
          > comments can be?). AFIK, there have not been many built. The Atkin
          > website (you know you can access it from the front page of this
          > group?) includes fotos. You can also use the "search" box at the
          top
          > of the page here for prior discussions regarding this nifty design.
          > Perhaps some of the previous discussion will shed some light on the
          > issues on your mind.
          >
          > Regarding building in plywood, I would expect that would be no
          > problem. Regarding a stretch, the common rule of thumb is that you
          can
          > stretch most designs up to 10% by spreadubg out the frames/bulkeads
          > that much. However, each design is different, and some are more
          > amenable to such treatment than others. The wisest course is to
          > consult the designer before attempting it. If you figure out a way
          to
          > do so in this case, let us know. That'd be impressive. Barring
          that,
          > I'll offer my (highly suspect, uninformed, and ignorant) impression
          > that MG would be OK to stretch a bit. Perhaps John K. has better
          > information on these two issues. If you do proceed, please keep us
          > informed, and post fotos, post fotos, repeat after me... post
          fotos.
          >
          > Cheers,
          > David Graybeal
          > Portland, OR
          >
          > "The second mouse gets the cheese"
          >
          > *******************
          >
          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "mike" <circvildawg@> wrote:
          > >
          > > HI AM LOOKING FOR ANY INFORMATION FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE BUILDING A
          > > MARTHA GREEN, OR HAVE BUILT ONE IN THE PAST. I'M INTERESTED IN
          > > BUILDING ONE MY SELF SOME DAY AND HAVE SOME QUESTIONS AS TO
          EXTENDING
          > > THE LOA TO SAY 32 FT AND MAYBE BUILDING HER WITH PLYWOOD
          > >
          >
          thanks for the advice this will probably be a long term goal if i
          get a chance to build a martha green i want to do it right . i've
          spec out some possible engine choices. it seems the engine specified
          on the atkins web site a universal utility 4 produced 25 hp at 2500
          rpm, the modern equivilant the atomic 4 produces 30 hp at 3000 rpm
          but is a 4 cyl diesel as apposed to the utilitys 3 cyl design. so
          the atomic would probibly be smoother running . i also started
          looking at various trim pices such as port lights , nav lights,bells
          and such a design this beautiful deserves the best.
        • mike
          ... pointed ... Wooden ... top ... can ... to ... that, ... fotos. ... EXTENDING ... thanks for the advice this will probably be a long term goal if i get a
          Message 4 of 6 , May 21, 2006
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            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
            >
            > Mike,
            >
            > I've been a bit enamoured of MG myself, ever since John Kohnen
            pointed
            > her out to me last year in the Atkin booth at the Pt. Townsend
            Wooden
            > Boat Festival (see John, how influential even your most casual
            > comments can be?). AFIK, there have not been many built. The Atkin
            > website (you know you can access it from the front page of this
            > group?) includes fotos. You can also use the "search" box at the
            top
            > of the page here for prior discussions regarding this nifty design.
            > Perhaps some of the previous discussion will shed some light on the
            > issues on your mind.
            >
            > Regarding building in plywood, I would expect that would be no
            > problem. Regarding a stretch, the common rule of thumb is that you
            can
            > stretch most designs up to 10% by spreadubg out the frames/bulkeads
            > that much. However, each design is different, and some are more
            > amenable to such treatment than others. The wisest course is to
            > consult the designer before attempting it. If you figure out a way
            to
            > do so in this case, let us know. That'd be impressive. Barring
            that,
            > I'll offer my (highly suspect, uninformed, and ignorant) impression
            > that MG would be OK to stretch a bit. Perhaps John K. has better
            > information on these two issues. If you do proceed, please keep us
            > informed, and post fotos, post fotos, repeat after me... post
            fotos.
            >
            > Cheers,
            > David Graybeal
            > Portland, OR
            >
            > "The second mouse gets the cheese"
            >
            > *******************
            >
            > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "mike" <circvildawg@> wrote:
            > >
            > > HI AM LOOKING FOR ANY INFORMATION FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE BUILDING A
            > > MARTHA GREEN, OR HAVE BUILT ONE IN THE PAST. I'M INTERESTED IN
            > > BUILDING ONE MY SELF SOME DAY AND HAVE SOME QUESTIONS AS TO
            EXTENDING
            > > THE LOA TO SAY 32 FT AND MAYBE BUILDING HER WITH PLYWOOD
            > >
            >
            thanks for the advice this will probably be a long term goal if i
            get a chance to build a martha green i want to do it right . i've
            spec out some possible engine choices. it seems the engine specified
            on the atkins web site a universal utility 4 produced 25 hp at 2500
            rpm, the modern equivilant the atomic 4 produces 30 hp at 3000 rpm
            but is a 4 cyl diesel as apposed to the utilitys 3 cyl design. so
            the atomic would probibly be smoother running . i also started
            looking at various trim pices such as port lights , nav lights,bells
            and such a design this beautiful deserves the best.
          • John Kohnen
            The Westerbeke 25 hp. replacement for the Atomic Four, the M-25XPB, is a 3-cylinder engine (when you get up to 35 hp. the Westerbeke s are fours) and the
            Message 5 of 6 , May 22, 2006
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              The Westerbeke 25 hp. replacement for the Atomic Four, the M-25XPB, is a
              3-cylinder engine (when you get up to 35 hp. the Westerbeke's are fours)
              and the Universal Utility Four is, of course, a four-cylinder engine (look
              at the name <g>). Diesels are noisier and more vibratory (and smelly) than
              gas engines anyway, so a rebuilt Utility Four, or equivalent gas marine
              engine from another manufacturer, would be more pleasant to live with, but
              the Westerbeke's power characteristics don't compare too badly with the
              Universal's so it'd be a good engine for a Martha Green. I'm pretty sure
              Westerbeke marinizes Kubota engines nowadays, and they're about the best
              small diesels around. Beta Marine is another marinizer of Kubota engines.
              BTW, the Universal Utility Four and Atomic Four were completely different
              engines, the Utility Four being a bigger engine, 95 cu. in. versus the
              Atomic Four's 64 1/2 cu. in.

              http://www.westerbeke.com/products/diesel_engine_detail.cfm?eng=19

              http://www.betamarinenc.com/

              http://www.engine.kubota.ne.jp/

              And just for fans of old engines (but the pictures don't work anymore!):

              http://tinyurl.com/gds67

              I often recommend using plywood planking on Atkin boats when they're going
              to be living on a trailer. For that usage the old construction methods
              don't hold up as well as plywood construction for a number of reasons.
              Martha Green is too big to live on a trailer and you want to make her even
              bigger, so changing her construction to accommodate trailering doesn't
              make any sense at all. For a wooden boat that's going to live in the water
              it's far better to build the old-fashioned way, especially in the long
              run. There are traditionally built boats 70, 80, and even over 90 years
              old still fishing the open ocean out of West Coast ports. How many plywood
              boats that old are still around? Ok, that's a trick question, but you get
              the idea. <g>

              I can just about guarantee that you'd never get plywood sheets to wrap
              around Martha Green's bottom anyway. You'd have to piece the bottom
              together out of odd shaped chunks, or use plywood "planks", and probably
              use at least two layers. The framing would have redesigned too. A plywood
              Martha Green would end up being more work than doing it the old fashioned
              way.

              If you stretch Martha Green you're on your own. If the resulting boat
              doesn't perform well you'll have only yourself to blame, not the Atkins.
              But making a boat a little bit longer, without increasing the beam, is
              pretty safe and often works out well.

              Texas seems to be a hotbed of Martha Green construction. In the last few
              years I know of a couple that have been hauled from Texas to the
              Northwest. Is that one that was for sale in Portland a while back still
              around David?

              On Sun, 21 May 2006 19:21:58 -0700, mike wrote:

              > ...
              > thanks for the advice this will probably be a long term goal if i
              > get a chance to build a martha green i want to do it right . i've
              > spec out some possible engine choices. it seems the engine specified
              > on the atkins web site a universal utility 4 produced 25 hp at 2500
              > rpm, the modern equivilant the atomic 4 produces 30 hp at 3000 rpm
              > but is a 4 cyl diesel as apposed to the utilitys 3 cyl design. so
              > the atomic would probibly be smoother running . i also started
              > looking at various trim pices such as port lights , nav lights,bells
              > and such a design this beautiful deserves the best.

              John <jkohnen@...>
              Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
              dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
              describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
              described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
            • David
              John, The Martha Green that was hauled from Texas to the NW is, IIRC, in Seattle. I believe it was a friend of Steve Miller who bought it (Steve, is that
              Message 6 of 6 , May 22, 2006
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                John,

                The Martha Green that was hauled from Texas to the NW is, IIRC, in
                Seattle. I believe it was a friend of Steve Miller who bought it
                (Steve, is that right?). I have lost track, and never did get a chance
                to eyeball it. If I decide, at some point, to build a bigger boat, you
                can be sure I'll attempt to track her down.

                Re. diesel engines. I have been giving some thought to a larger,
                inboard boat. Financially, I'm a long way from affording one... but
                I'm confident that we'll get there. I, as you know, am a powerboat
                neophyte, and much of my information is theoretical at this point.
                Nonetheless, I'm drawn to diesels for a few reasons. First, their
                low-revving longevity. Second, their simplicity. Third, their
                weight=ballast. I know that's a mixed blessing, but in the right hull,
                mounted low, it'd be an advantage (it seems). Fourth, their relative
                safety. Knowing myself, and wondering about my boys, the prospect of
                gas fumes in the bilge makes me mucho nervous. Can I remember to run
                the blower Every Time? Probably, but what if I forget? What if the
                boys forget? Believe me, they do forget things that result in
                destruction. (How many times do I have to warn them about stolen
                police cars & high speed chases??) Finally, the ability to run
                biodiesel. It's very early days yet in what is bound to be a
                tumultuous transition away from our longstanding reliance on fossil
                fuels, so it's gonna be hard to predict how it'll all shake out.
                However, it's looking more & more to me like biodiesel is a viable
                alternative. Perhaps it'll only be transitional. Perhaps it'll be a
                long-term mainstream option. I can't begin to guess, but I'm
                definitely leaning toward biodiesel in the short term.

                I get the impression that you're more of a gas engine fan. I know you
                know a lot about small inboards. Any thoughts on the above?

                Cheers,
                David Graybeal
                Portland, OR

                "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" --
                Niels Bohr

                *******************

                --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jkohnen@...> wrote:
                <SNIP>
                >
                > I often recommend using plywood planking on Atkin boats when they're
                going
                > to be living on a trailer. For that usage the old construction methods
                > don't hold up as well as plywood construction for a number of reasons.
                > Martha Green is too big to live on a trailer and you want to make
                her even
                > bigger, so changing her construction to accommodate trailering doesn't
                > make any sense at all. For a wooden boat that's going to live in the
                water
                > it's far better to build the old-fashioned way, especially in the long
                > run. There are traditionally built boats 70, 80, and even over 90
                years
                > old still fishing the open ocean out of West Coast ports. How many
                plywood
                > boats that old are still around? Ok, that's a trick question, but
                you get
                > the idea. <g>
                >
                > I can just about guarantee that you'd never get plywood sheets to wrap
                > around Martha Green's bottom anyway. You'd have to piece the bottom
                > together out of odd shaped chunks, or use plywood "planks", and
                probably
                > use at least two layers. The framing would have redesigned too. A
                plywood
                > Martha Green would end up being more work than doing it the old
                fashioned
                > way.
                >
                > If you stretch Martha Green you're on your own. If the resulting boat
                > doesn't perform well you'll have only yourself to blame, not the
                Atkins.
                > But making a boat a little bit longer, without increasing the beam, is
                > pretty safe and often works out well.
                >
                > Texas seems to be a hotbed of Martha Green construction. In the last
                few
                > years I know of a couple that have been hauled from Texas to the
                > Northwest. Is that one that was for sale in Portland a while back
                still
                > around David?

                <SNIP>
                >
                > John <jkohnen@...>
                > Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
                > dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
                > describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
                > described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
                >
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