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Re: Rescue Minor - Aluminum

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  • sals_dad
    ... ... I like this idea a lot. I have heard it before, and it would be great to have the flexibility as to where to mount the engine. Any idea as to
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 28, 2006
      --- lon wells <lononriver@...> wrote:
      <snip>
      > One advantage with the used agricultural
      > motors is many
      > have the hydraulic pump. That means you could
      > install a hydraulic motor on the propeller shaft and
      > have a forward reverse gear using hydraulic valving.
      > A used skidsteer motor as from a Bobcat wheel drive
      > would work.
      > >
      I like this idea a lot. I have heard it before, and it would be
      great to have the flexibility as to where to mount the engine. Any
      idea as to power loss, etc through such a rig?

      The keel cooler setup I started with is designed as framing for the
      bottom. Way too big, I am realizing. I think this detail was a
      holdover from a plan to do a scaled up version, with a 60HP Datsun
      diesel (maybe next year!) In any event, my wife will want an
      internal radiator (floorboards?) for winter.

      Where would I find somebody to rig up a prop tube/shaft and
      hydraulic or belt transmission? (Bingey, you busy these days? ;-)

      Also, there was a mention of books, but I haven't seen anything that
      covers DIY small inboards. Any specific recommendations?

      Thanks for your encouragement. Now to do a luauan template of the
      bow panels... If anybody wants to talk, my number is
      Two-Oh-Seven 650>3235 (sorry to be coy, but this is a public place)

      Sal's Dad
    • Niels
      Here are two sources for some information: http://boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=12%2D431 http://boatbuildercentral.com/diesel/newinstallation.php Would a
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 28, 2006
        Here are two sources for some information:

        http://boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=12%2D431

        http://boatbuildercentral.com/diesel/newinstallation.php

        Would a 25hp gas inboard work on Rescue Minor? I imagine it would
        with proper gearing.

        Niels

        > Also, there was a mention of books, but I haven't seen anything that
        > covers DIY small inboards. Any specific recommendations?
        >
        > Thanks for your encouragement. Now to do a luauan template of the
        > bow panels... If anybody wants to talk, my number is
        > Two-Oh-Seven 650>3235 (sorry to be coy, but this is a public place)
        >
        > Sal's Dad
        >
      • Felix Graham-Jones
        Sail Magazine March 2006 had an article exploring the idea of hybrid diesel electric propulsion for sail boats. Though it seems counterintuitive, the theory is
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 30, 2006
          Sail Magazine March 2006 had an article exploring the idea of hybrid
          diesel electric propulsion for sail boats. Though it seems
          counterintuitive, the theory is that a diesel generator running at
          optimum revs can more than make up for the inefficiency of converting
          to electric power for providing propulsion. Added benefits are freedom
          of placement for the power plant and much reduced size and ease of
          installation for the drive motor. Here is one link to the
          Fischer-Panda version of this though the article in Sail was very well
          researched and well worth tracking down and not at all invested in any
          one company's particular products.
          Hope this helps as you ponder your power options
          Felix
          P.S. Did anyone ever have any thoughts on what I can use to fill the
          idiot grooves carved in my Doly Varden's deck to give a nice flat
          surface I can canvas over?
          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Niels" <sail2xs@...> wrote:
          >
          > Here are two sources for some information:
          >
          > http://boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=12%2D431
          >
          > http://boatbuildercentral.com/diesel/newinstallation.php
          >
          > Would a 25hp gas inboard work on Rescue Minor? I imagine it would
          > with proper gearing.
          >
          > Niels
          >
          > > Also, there was a mention of books, but I haven't seen anything that
          > > covers DIY small inboards. Any specific recommendations?
          > >
          > > Thanks for your encouragement. Now to do a luauan template of the
          > > bow panels... If anybody wants to talk, my number is
          > > Two-Oh-Seven 650>3235 (sorry to be coy, but this is a public place)
          > >
          > > Sal's Dad
          > >
          >
        • Felix Graham-Jones
          OOps - forgot the link. Here it is : http://www.solarnavigator.net/fischer_panda_diesel_electric.htm Hope this helps Felix ... that
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 30, 2006
            OOps - forgot the link.
            Here it is :
            http://www.solarnavigator.net/fischer_panda_diesel_electric.htm
            Hope this helps
            Felix
            --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Felix Graham-Jones"
            <felix.graham-jones@...> wrote:
            >
            > Sail Magazine March 2006 had an article exploring the idea of hybrid
            > diesel electric propulsion for sail boats. Though it seems
            > counterintuitive, the theory is that a diesel generator running at
            > optimum revs can more than make up for the inefficiency of converting
            > to electric power for providing propulsion. Added benefits are freedom
            > of placement for the power plant and much reduced size and ease of
            > installation for the drive motor. Here is one link to the
            > Fischer-Panda version of this though the article in Sail was very well
            > researched and well worth tracking down and not at all invested in any
            > one company's particular products.
            > Hope this helps as you ponder your power options
            > Felix
            > P.S. Did anyone ever have any thoughts on what I can use to fill the
            > idiot grooves carved in my Doly Varden's deck to give a nice flat
            > surface I can canvas over?
            > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Niels" <sail2xs@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Here are two sources for some information:
            > >
            > > http://boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=12%2D431
            > >
            > > http://boatbuildercentral.com/diesel/newinstallation.php
            > >
            > > Would a 25hp gas inboard work on Rescue Minor? I imagine it would
            > > with proper gearing.
            > >
            > > Niels
            > >
            > > > Also, there was a mention of books, but I haven't seen anything
            that
            > > > covers DIY small inboards. Any specific recommendations?
            > > >
            > > > Thanks for your encouragement. Now to do a luauan template of the
            > > > bow panels... If anybody wants to talk, my number is
            > > > Two-Oh-Seven 650>3235 (sorry to be coy, but this is a public place)
            > > >
            > > > Sal's Dad
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • sals_dad
            I have posted a few more photos. Unfortunately, the hull isn t as fair as I would like, and I need to modify several temporary frames, so it will be coming
            Message 5 of 16 , May 8, 2006
              I have posted a few more photos. Unfortunately, the hull isn't as
              fair as I would like, and I need to modify several temporary frames,
              so it will be coming apart. Those 20' panels are tough to maneuver
              alone!

              The photos also show a higher bow than designed. I figured why cut
              away all that material in order to keep a straight sheerline? I tried
              it in luaun leaving the full panel, and it was a bit pointy, and
              compromised on having a bow 3 or 4 inches higher than the design.

              One question, for Robb White - the bow does NOT want to come together
              to Atkins' lines along the bottom and chine, the entry seems like it
              will be fuller. This is visible in the photo of the bow frame and
              plating. Do you see any advantage/problems with the bow being an inch
              or two wider?

              As to propulsion, I am looking for an inboard diesel. However, if
              none can be had at a reasonable price, I will have a bulkhead in about
              the right place for my hare-brained outboard idea. I figure a smallish
              hole, with the anti-ventilation plate inside, above the bottom,
              caulked to the hull plating, and an extension for the water pick-up.
              I understand the point about not introducing air into the tunnel (or
              perhaps more to the point, allowing water out!), but suspect exhaust
              water will blow out astern before it is an issue.

              Thanks for all the support and advice!

              Sal's Dad
            • Rob Rohde-Szudy
              Hey Sal s Dad, looking really good. And I m glad you re doing this! I ll be extremely interested in seeing this when it s done. Robb s been trying to sell be
              Message 6 of 16 , May 9, 2006
                Hey Sal's Dad, looking really good. And I'm glad you're doing this! I'll be extremely interested in seeing this when it's done. Robb's been trying to sell be on building it in aluminum, and I'll do it if I like yours! My only worry is the noise of aluminum hulls.

                Atkin put the shear where he did to avoid excess windage. But Robb has mentioned that RM gets wet at higher speeds, so your higher bow might buy you a little leeway in that regard. I'd keep it high like your lauan template. Looks salty to my eye.

                As for the bow width, it looks like something is off. I'm wondering if you accounted for the width of the stempost, however you're doing that. And I'd try hard to get those lumps out of the tunnel. (Here's where wood is great!) Looks like you're in range for fairing compound there, though.

                As to power, Good luck on cheap diesel. If you find more than one, let me know! Probably you'll be stuck with the outboard powerhead if you want it cheap. But I really do think you'll need to move the exhaust. Adding exhaust gas to the tunnel will probably break the suction and make the water drop out of the tunnel. Not good. But it's easy to move the exhaust anyhow. I don't see why you wouldn't do it. Add a plate to block it out of the lower unit and add a pipe flange to the side of your cut-down leg. Then you just take it out with radiator hose to the transom. Hell, take it over the side with the setup you're looking at.

                By the way, are those models of Shoals Runner and Rescue Minor in the same scale???

                Best,
                --Rob from Wisconsin


                ---------------------------------
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              • sals_dad
                ... has mentioned that RM gets wet at higher speeds, so your higher bow might buy you a little leeway in that regard. I d keep it high like your lauan
                Message 7 of 16 , May 9, 2006
                  Rob Rohde-Szudy wrote:
                  >
                  > Atkin put the shear where he did to avoid excess windage. But Robb
                  has mentioned that RM gets wet at higher speeds, so your higher bow
                  might buy you a little leeway in that regard. I'd keep it high like your
                  lauan template. Looks salty to my eye.

                  It's pretty high, and blocks view forward for a seated helmsman, to say
                  nothing of the kids who will sit up in the bow. As I noted, I have
                  compromised, raising it a few inches above the design.

                  > As for the bow width, it looks like something is off. I'm wondering
                  if you accounted for the width of the stempost, however you're doing
                  that. And I'd try hard to get those lumps out of the tunnel. (Here's
                  where wood is great!) Looks like you're in range for fairing compound
                  there, though.

                  I thought Iunderstood "developable surfaces" before starting this. But
                  working with 20' long aluminum plate, with an underbody shaped like
                  this, gives you a new appreciation. It doesn't take much change in the
                  twist to move the chines apart by an inch or so. I sure am glad I
                  overcut each panel by an inch! And creative application of a
                  come-along is helping to pull the panels into shape.

                  Trying to get curves just right, on your back under the hull with a
                  cordless driver to adjust the drywall screws, is a real treat. The
                  sharp edges of the metal keep me thinking maybe this is just a home-made
                  guillotine! And why on earth am I building this thing right-side up?
                  Seemed like a good idea, with that flat keel...

                  Welding will warp things all over, I hope not beyond recognition. There
                  will be no fairing compound, in any event.

                  > As to power, Good luck on cheap diesel. If you find more than one,
                  let me know! Probably you'll be stuck with the outboard powerhead if you
                  want it cheap. But I really do think you'll need to move the exhaust.
                  Adding exhaust gas to the tunnel will probably break the suction and
                  make the water drop out of the tunnel. Not good. But it's easy to move
                  the exhaust anyhow. I don't see why you wouldn't do it. Add a plate to
                  block it out of the lower unit and add a pipe flange to the side of your
                  cut-down leg. Then you just take it out with radiator hose to the
                  transom. Hell, take it over the side with the setup you're looking at.

                  If I go this route, I will try to NOT modify the outboard, as least any
                  more than absolutely necessary. But an exhaust outlet is a possibility.

                  > By the way, are those models of Shoals Runner and Rescue Minor in
                  the same scale???

                  No, RM is 1/4 scale, and SR is 3/10. I gave serious consideration to
                  building a scaled-up (24'+ waterline) Shoals Runner variation, with
                  less flare, a curved reverse transom (would be awesome in aluminum!) and
                  upright lobster-boat style house, sort of like the second photo at
                  http://www.fishermensvoice.com/archives/woodenboatbldg.html
                  <http://www.fishermensvoice.com/archives/woodenboatbldg.html> , or
                  http://www.rumerys.com/T38main.html
                  <http://www.rumerys.com/T38main.html> . Power by a Datsun 55hp
                  diesel... This project is not forgotten, just on the back burner! My
                  wife has been encouraging me to build this boat quick, as a prototype,
                  rather than fuss over the details, and build our ultimate boat next.

                  Best regards

                  Curtis (aka Sal's Dad)










                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • deceiverbob
                  Curtis, The boat is looking good. As the Rescue Minor is a boat that caught my eye, I took the time to model it in FreeShip deisgn shareware. It indicated
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 9, 2006
                    Curtis,
                    The boat is looking good. As the Rescue Minor is a boat that caught my
                    eye, I took the time to model it in FreeShip deisgn shareware. It
                    indicated developability problems in the same places yours are showing
                    themselves, mainly the tunnel region, the bow btween the chine and
                    keel, and the midpoint of the keel where the bottom keel sides become
                    distinct surfaces. Regarding fairing after the hull is welded, both
                    steel and aluminum panels can be faired using a welding torch and
                    water hose. Each panel is heated in a leopard spot pattern ;spots are
                    approx 1" diameter spaced approx 2" apart, cooled immediately after
                    the torch is moved. Steel is heated until it glows red, aluminum is
                    harder as it melts before any color change is visible. If you try this
                    practice on some scrap first. Good luck with the rest of your build.
                    Bob.
                  • Rob Rohde-Szudy
                    Clouds part, angels sing. Thanks deceiverbob! Great suggestion on torch fairing. Particularly given the inflexible difficulty of developable surfaces, and weld
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 10, 2006
                      Clouds part, angels sing. Thanks deceiverbob! Great suggestion on torch fairing. Particularly given the inflexible difficulty of developable surfaces, and weld warping!

                      That torpedo stern is a nice look, but your wife is right about doing something proven first. Also, scaling of these tunnel sterns have not always been 100% successful. There's a whole lot of science AND art that goes into making them work right. Sure with the Atkins were still alive to take commissions, eh?

                      --Rob



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