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Re: [AtkinBoats] Re: Rescue Minor - Aluminum

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  • John Kohnen
    Rescue Minor isn t self-bailing as designed. ... -- John Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so dull, so
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 27, 2006
      Rescue Minor isn't self-bailing as designed.

      On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:04:24 -0700, Niels wrote:

      > Looking forward to seeing your progress, it should be a great boat.
      > Question, is Rescue Minor self bailing?

      --
      John <jkohnen@...>
      Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
      dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
      describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
      described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
    • John Kohnen
      Yes, it ll be an adventure! :o) I m looking forward to watching the boat take shape. I ve forgotten, what did you say you were going to use for power? Good
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 27, 2006
        Yes, it'll be an adventure! :o) I'm looking forward to watching the boat
        take shape. I've forgotten, what did you say you were going to use for
        power? Good luck with the project!

        On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:34:18 -0700, Sal's Dad wrote:

        > I finally stopped dithering, and bought the aluminum for Rescue
        > Minor. I have posted photos of the model, and first steps of cutting
        > materials.
        >
        > This should be an adventure!

        --
        John <jkohnen@...>
        A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought.
        <Lord Peter Wimsey>
      • sals_dad
        OK, I am still dithering about the power. This will be much heavier than Robb White s boat (1,000 plus pounds empty), so I am hesitant to go with too little.
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 28, 2006
          OK, I am still dithering about the power. This will be much
          heavier than Robb White's boat (1,000 plus pounds empty), so I am
          hesitant to go with too little. On the other hand, I suspect 20HP
          just _might_ be enough.

          And I don't have skills or aptitude for inboard, and there are
          plenty of outboards around to try different configurations.

          So: My current thinking is to put in an outboard well, jacked up to
          put the prop in exactly the right place. A fairing plate will
          pretty much close the gap around the anti-ventilation plate, and
          that area of the hull is well above the waterline, and can be self-
          bailing. Just need an adapter to provide cooling water pickup when
          it's at idle.

          This way I can try it out with my big 25HP 4-stroke, something as
          little as a 6, or whatever else seems appropriate. The hull will
          be set up with a "dummy" stern tube, and integral keel-coolers, for
          future inboard installation.

          Yes, I know this is a lubberly approach, and am still open to
          suggestions. Anybody care to offer suggestions, (or assistance?
          any machinists/mechanics for inboard installation? sources for
          cheap motors?)

          Sal's Dad

          --- "John Kohnen" wrote:
          > I've forgotten, what did you say you were going to use for
          > power?

          > Sal's Dad wrote:
          >
          > > I finally stopped dithering, and bought the aluminum for Rescue
          > > Minor. I have posted photos of the model, and first steps of
          cutting
          > > materials.
        • Niels
          My 2 cents, If you can loft all the pieces to buildt the hull you are smart enought to mount a inboard like the plans call for. After all thats one of the
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 28, 2006
            My 2 cents,

            If you can loft all the pieces to buildt the hull you are smart
            enought to mount a inboard like the plans call for. After all thats
            one of the cool things about the boat. I think on boat-plans.com
            there is information on inboard installation. Somewhere on the web
            theres certainly info about it.

            I too have a unused outboard laying around. A Honda 8hp that I will
            build a hull for so I can get some practice before I invest in a
            Rescue Minor or Nibble design.

            Question, is the keel cooler through the bottom of the hull? Or does
            it rely on air in the bildge to cool?

            Niels
          • lon wells
            Wow a aluminum Rescue Minor that should be a great boat. William and John Atkin s were very smart fellows they designed over 65 Seabright skiffs. They did
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 28, 2006
              Wow a aluminum Rescue Minor that should be a great
              boat.

              William and John Atkin's were very smart fellows they
              designed over 65 Seabright skiffs. They did design
              Seabright Skiffs for outboards like Happy Clam. But I
              never heard or saw any that had a outboard well.

              They designed other shallow draft boats that had
              underwater propeller cavity, but none of these boats
              had outboard wells.

              Diesels are so reliable. I have a small dock and
              there is a uninhabited island in front of it and every
              year there are a few people that get stranded because
              their outboard broke down. But in all of my years
              there has never been a person stranded because their
              diesel broke down.

              A smart fellow like yourself that has the were with
              all to build a aluminum boat from scratch could
              install and maintain a diesel after reading a book or
              two and speaking to some experts. Old dogs can learn
              new tricks.

              I have bought motors from this fellow that sells on
              ebay. He imports new and used motors. It is my
              understanding that Japan has stringent environmental
              laws and motors need to be replaced at fairly low
              hours. These laws apply to industrial and
              agricultural motors. The current motor he is selling
              is too small being only 13hp and you would need closer
              to 20 hp. One advantage with the used agricultural
              motors is many
              have the hydraulic pump. That means you could
              install a hydraulic motor on the propeller shaft and
              have a forward reverse gear using hydraulic valving.
              A used skidsteer motor as from a Bobcat wheel drive
              would work.

              The small Kubota's have a great reputation for being
              reliable and parts are readily available. It would be
              far cheaper and less headaches than any outboard.
              http://cgi.ebay.com/Kubota-D600-3-cyl-Compact-Diesel-Engine-NO-Reserve_W0QQitemZ7612526822QQcategoryZ50918QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


              Lon



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            • sals_dad
              ... ... I like this idea a lot. I have heard it before, and it would be great to have the flexibility as to where to mount the engine. Any idea as to
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 28, 2006
                --- lon wells <lononriver@...> wrote:
                <snip>
                > One advantage with the used agricultural
                > motors is many
                > have the hydraulic pump. That means you could
                > install a hydraulic motor on the propeller shaft and
                > have a forward reverse gear using hydraulic valving.
                > A used skidsteer motor as from a Bobcat wheel drive
                > would work.
                > >
                I like this idea a lot. I have heard it before, and it would be
                great to have the flexibility as to where to mount the engine. Any
                idea as to power loss, etc through such a rig?

                The keel cooler setup I started with is designed as framing for the
                bottom. Way too big, I am realizing. I think this detail was a
                holdover from a plan to do a scaled up version, with a 60HP Datsun
                diesel (maybe next year!) In any event, my wife will want an
                internal radiator (floorboards?) for winter.

                Where would I find somebody to rig up a prop tube/shaft and
                hydraulic or belt transmission? (Bingey, you busy these days? ;-)

                Also, there was a mention of books, but I haven't seen anything that
                covers DIY small inboards. Any specific recommendations?

                Thanks for your encouragement. Now to do a luauan template of the
                bow panels... If anybody wants to talk, my number is
                Two-Oh-Seven 650>3235 (sorry to be coy, but this is a public place)

                Sal's Dad
              • Niels
                Here are two sources for some information: http://boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=12%2D431 http://boatbuildercentral.com/diesel/newinstallation.php Would a
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 28, 2006
                  Here are two sources for some information:

                  http://boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=12%2D431

                  http://boatbuildercentral.com/diesel/newinstallation.php

                  Would a 25hp gas inboard work on Rescue Minor? I imagine it would
                  with proper gearing.

                  Niels

                  > Also, there was a mention of books, but I haven't seen anything that
                  > covers DIY small inboards. Any specific recommendations?
                  >
                  > Thanks for your encouragement. Now to do a luauan template of the
                  > bow panels... If anybody wants to talk, my number is
                  > Two-Oh-Seven 650>3235 (sorry to be coy, but this is a public place)
                  >
                  > Sal's Dad
                  >
                • Felix Graham-Jones
                  Sail Magazine March 2006 had an article exploring the idea of hybrid diesel electric propulsion for sail boats. Though it seems counterintuitive, the theory is
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 30, 2006
                    Sail Magazine March 2006 had an article exploring the idea of hybrid
                    diesel electric propulsion for sail boats. Though it seems
                    counterintuitive, the theory is that a diesel generator running at
                    optimum revs can more than make up for the inefficiency of converting
                    to electric power for providing propulsion. Added benefits are freedom
                    of placement for the power plant and much reduced size and ease of
                    installation for the drive motor. Here is one link to the
                    Fischer-Panda version of this though the article in Sail was very well
                    researched and well worth tracking down and not at all invested in any
                    one company's particular products.
                    Hope this helps as you ponder your power options
                    Felix
                    P.S. Did anyone ever have any thoughts on what I can use to fill the
                    idiot grooves carved in my Doly Varden's deck to give a nice flat
                    surface I can canvas over?
                    --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Niels" <sail2xs@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Here are two sources for some information:
                    >
                    > http://boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=12%2D431
                    >
                    > http://boatbuildercentral.com/diesel/newinstallation.php
                    >
                    > Would a 25hp gas inboard work on Rescue Minor? I imagine it would
                    > with proper gearing.
                    >
                    > Niels
                    >
                    > > Also, there was a mention of books, but I haven't seen anything that
                    > > covers DIY small inboards. Any specific recommendations?
                    > >
                    > > Thanks for your encouragement. Now to do a luauan template of the
                    > > bow panels... If anybody wants to talk, my number is
                    > > Two-Oh-Seven 650>3235 (sorry to be coy, but this is a public place)
                    > >
                    > > Sal's Dad
                    > >
                    >
                  • Felix Graham-Jones
                    OOps - forgot the link. Here it is : http://www.solarnavigator.net/fischer_panda_diesel_electric.htm Hope this helps Felix ... that
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 30, 2006
                      OOps - forgot the link.
                      Here it is :
                      http://www.solarnavigator.net/fischer_panda_diesel_electric.htm
                      Hope this helps
                      Felix
                      --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Felix Graham-Jones"
                      <felix.graham-jones@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Sail Magazine March 2006 had an article exploring the idea of hybrid
                      > diesel electric propulsion for sail boats. Though it seems
                      > counterintuitive, the theory is that a diesel generator running at
                      > optimum revs can more than make up for the inefficiency of converting
                      > to electric power for providing propulsion. Added benefits are freedom
                      > of placement for the power plant and much reduced size and ease of
                      > installation for the drive motor. Here is one link to the
                      > Fischer-Panda version of this though the article in Sail was very well
                      > researched and well worth tracking down and not at all invested in any
                      > one company's particular products.
                      > Hope this helps as you ponder your power options
                      > Felix
                      > P.S. Did anyone ever have any thoughts on what I can use to fill the
                      > idiot grooves carved in my Doly Varden's deck to give a nice flat
                      > surface I can canvas over?
                      > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Niels" <sail2xs@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Here are two sources for some information:
                      > >
                      > > http://boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=12%2D431
                      > >
                      > > http://boatbuildercentral.com/diesel/newinstallation.php
                      > >
                      > > Would a 25hp gas inboard work on Rescue Minor? I imagine it would
                      > > with proper gearing.
                      > >
                      > > Niels
                      > >
                      > > > Also, there was a mention of books, but I haven't seen anything
                      that
                      > > > covers DIY small inboards. Any specific recommendations?
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks for your encouragement. Now to do a luauan template of the
                      > > > bow panels... If anybody wants to talk, my number is
                      > > > Two-Oh-Seven 650>3235 (sorry to be coy, but this is a public place)
                      > > >
                      > > > Sal's Dad
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • sals_dad
                      I have posted a few more photos. Unfortunately, the hull isn t as fair as I would like, and I need to modify several temporary frames, so it will be coming
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 8 5:28 AM
                        I have posted a few more photos. Unfortunately, the hull isn't as
                        fair as I would like, and I need to modify several temporary frames,
                        so it will be coming apart. Those 20' panels are tough to maneuver
                        alone!

                        The photos also show a higher bow than designed. I figured why cut
                        away all that material in order to keep a straight sheerline? I tried
                        it in luaun leaving the full panel, and it was a bit pointy, and
                        compromised on having a bow 3 or 4 inches higher than the design.

                        One question, for Robb White - the bow does NOT want to come together
                        to Atkins' lines along the bottom and chine, the entry seems like it
                        will be fuller. This is visible in the photo of the bow frame and
                        plating. Do you see any advantage/problems with the bow being an inch
                        or two wider?

                        As to propulsion, I am looking for an inboard diesel. However, if
                        none can be had at a reasonable price, I will have a bulkhead in about
                        the right place for my hare-brained outboard idea. I figure a smallish
                        hole, with the anti-ventilation plate inside, above the bottom,
                        caulked to the hull plating, and an extension for the water pick-up.
                        I understand the point about not introducing air into the tunnel (or
                        perhaps more to the point, allowing water out!), but suspect exhaust
                        water will blow out astern before it is an issue.

                        Thanks for all the support and advice!

                        Sal's Dad
                      • Rob Rohde-Szudy
                        Hey Sal s Dad, looking really good. And I m glad you re doing this! I ll be extremely interested in seeing this when it s done. Robb s been trying to sell be
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 9 6:18 AM
                          Hey Sal's Dad, looking really good. And I'm glad you're doing this! I'll be extremely interested in seeing this when it's done. Robb's been trying to sell be on building it in aluminum, and I'll do it if I like yours! My only worry is the noise of aluminum hulls.

                          Atkin put the shear where he did to avoid excess windage. But Robb has mentioned that RM gets wet at higher speeds, so your higher bow might buy you a little leeway in that regard. I'd keep it high like your lauan template. Looks salty to my eye.

                          As for the bow width, it looks like something is off. I'm wondering if you accounted for the width of the stempost, however you're doing that. And I'd try hard to get those lumps out of the tunnel. (Here's where wood is great!) Looks like you're in range for fairing compound there, though.

                          As to power, Good luck on cheap diesel. If you find more than one, let me know! Probably you'll be stuck with the outboard powerhead if you want it cheap. But I really do think you'll need to move the exhaust. Adding exhaust gas to the tunnel will probably break the suction and make the water drop out of the tunnel. Not good. But it's easy to move the exhaust anyhow. I don't see why you wouldn't do it. Add a plate to block it out of the lower unit and add a pipe flange to the side of your cut-down leg. Then you just take it out with radiator hose to the transom. Hell, take it over the side with the setup you're looking at.

                          By the way, are those models of Shoals Runner and Rescue Minor in the same scale???

                          Best,
                          --Rob from Wisconsin


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                        • sals_dad
                          ... has mentioned that RM gets wet at higher speeds, so your higher bow might buy you a little leeway in that regard. I d keep it high like your lauan
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 9 8:27 AM
                            Rob Rohde-Szudy wrote:
                            >
                            > Atkin put the shear where he did to avoid excess windage. But Robb
                            has mentioned that RM gets wet at higher speeds, so your higher bow
                            might buy you a little leeway in that regard. I'd keep it high like your
                            lauan template. Looks salty to my eye.

                            It's pretty high, and blocks view forward for a seated helmsman, to say
                            nothing of the kids who will sit up in the bow. As I noted, I have
                            compromised, raising it a few inches above the design.

                            > As for the bow width, it looks like something is off. I'm wondering
                            if you accounted for the width of the stempost, however you're doing
                            that. And I'd try hard to get those lumps out of the tunnel. (Here's
                            where wood is great!) Looks like you're in range for fairing compound
                            there, though.

                            I thought Iunderstood "developable surfaces" before starting this. But
                            working with 20' long aluminum plate, with an underbody shaped like
                            this, gives you a new appreciation. It doesn't take much change in the
                            twist to move the chines apart by an inch or so. I sure am glad I
                            overcut each panel by an inch! And creative application of a
                            come-along is helping to pull the panels into shape.

                            Trying to get curves just right, on your back under the hull with a
                            cordless driver to adjust the drywall screws, is a real treat. The
                            sharp edges of the metal keep me thinking maybe this is just a home-made
                            guillotine! And why on earth am I building this thing right-side up?
                            Seemed like a good idea, with that flat keel...

                            Welding will warp things all over, I hope not beyond recognition. There
                            will be no fairing compound, in any event.

                            > As to power, Good luck on cheap diesel. If you find more than one,
                            let me know! Probably you'll be stuck with the outboard powerhead if you
                            want it cheap. But I really do think you'll need to move the exhaust.
                            Adding exhaust gas to the tunnel will probably break the suction and
                            make the water drop out of the tunnel. Not good. But it's easy to move
                            the exhaust anyhow. I don't see why you wouldn't do it. Add a plate to
                            block it out of the lower unit and add a pipe flange to the side of your
                            cut-down leg. Then you just take it out with radiator hose to the
                            transom. Hell, take it over the side with the setup you're looking at.

                            If I go this route, I will try to NOT modify the outboard, as least any
                            more than absolutely necessary. But an exhaust outlet is a possibility.

                            > By the way, are those models of Shoals Runner and Rescue Minor in
                            the same scale???

                            No, RM is 1/4 scale, and SR is 3/10. I gave serious consideration to
                            building a scaled-up (24'+ waterline) Shoals Runner variation, with
                            less flare, a curved reverse transom (would be awesome in aluminum!) and
                            upright lobster-boat style house, sort of like the second photo at
                            http://www.fishermensvoice.com/archives/woodenboatbldg.html
                            <http://www.fishermensvoice.com/archives/woodenboatbldg.html> , or
                            http://www.rumerys.com/T38main.html
                            <http://www.rumerys.com/T38main.html> . Power by a Datsun 55hp
                            diesel... This project is not forgotten, just on the back burner! My
                            wife has been encouraging me to build this boat quick, as a prototype,
                            rather than fuss over the details, and build our ultimate boat next.

                            Best regards

                            Curtis (aka Sal's Dad)










                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • deceiverbob
                            Curtis, The boat is looking good. As the Rescue Minor is a boat that caught my eye, I took the time to model it in FreeShip deisgn shareware. It indicated
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 9 8:33 PM
                              Curtis,
                              The boat is looking good. As the Rescue Minor is a boat that caught my
                              eye, I took the time to model it in FreeShip deisgn shareware. It
                              indicated developability problems in the same places yours are showing
                              themselves, mainly the tunnel region, the bow btween the chine and
                              keel, and the midpoint of the keel where the bottom keel sides become
                              distinct surfaces. Regarding fairing after the hull is welded, both
                              steel and aluminum panels can be faired using a welding torch and
                              water hose. Each panel is heated in a leopard spot pattern ;spots are
                              approx 1" diameter spaced approx 2" apart, cooled immediately after
                              the torch is moved. Steel is heated until it glows red, aluminum is
                              harder as it melts before any color change is visible. If you try this
                              practice on some scrap first. Good luck with the rest of your build.
                              Bob.
                            • Rob Rohde-Szudy
                              Clouds part, angels sing. Thanks deceiverbob! Great suggestion on torch fairing. Particularly given the inflexible difficulty of developable surfaces, and weld
                              Message 14 of 16 , May 10 6:13 AM
                                Clouds part, angels sing. Thanks deceiverbob! Great suggestion on torch fairing. Particularly given the inflexible difficulty of developable surfaces, and weld warping!

                                That torpedo stern is a nice look, but your wife is right about doing something proven first. Also, scaling of these tunnel sterns have not always been 100% successful. There's a whole lot of science AND art that goes into making them work right. Sure with the Atkins were still alive to take commissions, eh?

                                --Rob



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