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Rescue Minor - Aluminum

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  • sals_dad
    I finally stopped dithering, and bought the aluminum for Rescue Minor. I have posted photos of the model, and first steps of cutting materials. This should be
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 26, 2006
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      I finally stopped dithering, and bought the aluminum for Rescue
      Minor. I have posted photos of the model, and first steps of cutting
      materials.

      This should be an adventure!

      Sal's Dad
    • Niels
      Looking forward to seeing your progress, it should be a great boat. Question, is Rescue Minor self bailing? Fair leads, Niels ... cutting
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 26, 2006
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        Looking forward to seeing your progress, it should be a great boat.
        Question, is Rescue Minor self bailing?

        Fair leads,
        Niels


        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "sals_dad" <sals_dad@...> wrote:
        >
        > I finally stopped dithering, and bought the aluminum for Rescue
        > Minor. I have posted photos of the model, and first steps of
        cutting
        > materials.
        >
        > This should be an adventure!
        >
        > Sal's Dad
        >
      • John Kohnen
        Rescue Minor isn t self-bailing as designed. ... -- John Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so dull, so
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 27, 2006
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          Rescue Minor isn't self-bailing as designed.

          On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:04:24 -0700, Niels wrote:

          > Looking forward to seeing your progress, it should be a great boat.
          > Question, is Rescue Minor self bailing?

          --
          John <jkohnen@...>
          Heaven, as conventionally conceived, is a place so inane, so
          dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to
          describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have
          described a day at the seashore. <G. B. Shaw>
        • John Kohnen
          Yes, it ll be an adventure! :o) I m looking forward to watching the boat take shape. I ve forgotten, what did you say you were going to use for power? Good
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 27, 2006
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            Yes, it'll be an adventure! :o) I'm looking forward to watching the boat
            take shape. I've forgotten, what did you say you were going to use for
            power? Good luck with the project!

            On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:34:18 -0700, Sal's Dad wrote:

            > I finally stopped dithering, and bought the aluminum for Rescue
            > Minor. I have posted photos of the model, and first steps of cutting
            > materials.
            >
            > This should be an adventure!

            --
            John <jkohnen@...>
            A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought.
            <Lord Peter Wimsey>
          • sals_dad
            OK, I am still dithering about the power. This will be much heavier than Robb White s boat (1,000 plus pounds empty), so I am hesitant to go with too little.
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 28, 2006
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              OK, I am still dithering about the power. This will be much
              heavier than Robb White's boat (1,000 plus pounds empty), so I am
              hesitant to go with too little. On the other hand, I suspect 20HP
              just _might_ be enough.

              And I don't have skills or aptitude for inboard, and there are
              plenty of outboards around to try different configurations.

              So: My current thinking is to put in an outboard well, jacked up to
              put the prop in exactly the right place. A fairing plate will
              pretty much close the gap around the anti-ventilation plate, and
              that area of the hull is well above the waterline, and can be self-
              bailing. Just need an adapter to provide cooling water pickup when
              it's at idle.

              This way I can try it out with my big 25HP 4-stroke, something as
              little as a 6, or whatever else seems appropriate. The hull will
              be set up with a "dummy" stern tube, and integral keel-coolers, for
              future inboard installation.

              Yes, I know this is a lubberly approach, and am still open to
              suggestions. Anybody care to offer suggestions, (or assistance?
              any machinists/mechanics for inboard installation? sources for
              cheap motors?)

              Sal's Dad

              --- "John Kohnen" wrote:
              > I've forgotten, what did you say you were going to use for
              > power?

              > Sal's Dad wrote:
              >
              > > I finally stopped dithering, and bought the aluminum for Rescue
              > > Minor. I have posted photos of the model, and first steps of
              cutting
              > > materials.
            • Niels
              My 2 cents, If you can loft all the pieces to buildt the hull you are smart enought to mount a inboard like the plans call for. After all thats one of the
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 28, 2006
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                My 2 cents,

                If you can loft all the pieces to buildt the hull you are smart
                enought to mount a inboard like the plans call for. After all thats
                one of the cool things about the boat. I think on boat-plans.com
                there is information on inboard installation. Somewhere on the web
                theres certainly info about it.

                I too have a unused outboard laying around. A Honda 8hp that I will
                build a hull for so I can get some practice before I invest in a
                Rescue Minor or Nibble design.

                Question, is the keel cooler through the bottom of the hull? Or does
                it rely on air in the bildge to cool?

                Niels
              • lon wells
                Wow a aluminum Rescue Minor that should be a great boat. William and John Atkin s were very smart fellows they designed over 65 Seabright skiffs. They did
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 28, 2006
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                  Wow a aluminum Rescue Minor that should be a great
                  boat.

                  William and John Atkin's were very smart fellows they
                  designed over 65 Seabright skiffs. They did design
                  Seabright Skiffs for outboards like Happy Clam. But I
                  never heard or saw any that had a outboard well.

                  They designed other shallow draft boats that had
                  underwater propeller cavity, but none of these boats
                  had outboard wells.

                  Diesels are so reliable. I have a small dock and
                  there is a uninhabited island in front of it and every
                  year there are a few people that get stranded because
                  their outboard broke down. But in all of my years
                  there has never been a person stranded because their
                  diesel broke down.

                  A smart fellow like yourself that has the were with
                  all to build a aluminum boat from scratch could
                  install and maintain a diesel after reading a book or
                  two and speaking to some experts. Old dogs can learn
                  new tricks.

                  I have bought motors from this fellow that sells on
                  ebay. He imports new and used motors. It is my
                  understanding that Japan has stringent environmental
                  laws and motors need to be replaced at fairly low
                  hours. These laws apply to industrial and
                  agricultural motors. The current motor he is selling
                  is too small being only 13hp and you would need closer
                  to 20 hp. One advantage with the used agricultural
                  motors is many
                  have the hydraulic pump. That means you could
                  install a hydraulic motor on the propeller shaft and
                  have a forward reverse gear using hydraulic valving.
                  A used skidsteer motor as from a Bobcat wheel drive
                  would work.

                  The small Kubota's have a great reputation for being
                  reliable and parts are readily available. It would be
                  far cheaper and less headaches than any outboard.
                  http://cgi.ebay.com/Kubota-D600-3-cyl-Compact-Diesel-Engine-NO-Reserve_W0QQitemZ7612526822QQcategoryZ50918QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


                  Lon



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                • sals_dad
                  ... ... I like this idea a lot. I have heard it before, and it would be great to have the flexibility as to where to mount the engine. Any idea as to
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 28, 2006
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                    --- lon wells <lononriver@...> wrote:
                    <snip>
                    > One advantage with the used agricultural
                    > motors is many
                    > have the hydraulic pump. That means you could
                    > install a hydraulic motor on the propeller shaft and
                    > have a forward reverse gear using hydraulic valving.
                    > A used skidsteer motor as from a Bobcat wheel drive
                    > would work.
                    > >
                    I like this idea a lot. I have heard it before, and it would be
                    great to have the flexibility as to where to mount the engine. Any
                    idea as to power loss, etc through such a rig?

                    The keel cooler setup I started with is designed as framing for the
                    bottom. Way too big, I am realizing. I think this detail was a
                    holdover from a plan to do a scaled up version, with a 60HP Datsun
                    diesel (maybe next year!) In any event, my wife will want an
                    internal radiator (floorboards?) for winter.

                    Where would I find somebody to rig up a prop tube/shaft and
                    hydraulic or belt transmission? (Bingey, you busy these days? ;-)

                    Also, there was a mention of books, but I haven't seen anything that
                    covers DIY small inboards. Any specific recommendations?

                    Thanks for your encouragement. Now to do a luauan template of the
                    bow panels... If anybody wants to talk, my number is
                    Two-Oh-Seven 650>3235 (sorry to be coy, but this is a public place)

                    Sal's Dad
                  • Niels
                    Here are two sources for some information: http://boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=12%2D431 http://boatbuildercentral.com/diesel/newinstallation.php Would a
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 28, 2006
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                      Here are two sources for some information:

                      http://boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=12%2D431

                      http://boatbuildercentral.com/diesel/newinstallation.php

                      Would a 25hp gas inboard work on Rescue Minor? I imagine it would
                      with proper gearing.

                      Niels

                      > Also, there was a mention of books, but I haven't seen anything that
                      > covers DIY small inboards. Any specific recommendations?
                      >
                      > Thanks for your encouragement. Now to do a luauan template of the
                      > bow panels... If anybody wants to talk, my number is
                      > Two-Oh-Seven 650>3235 (sorry to be coy, but this is a public place)
                      >
                      > Sal's Dad
                      >
                    • Felix Graham-Jones
                      Sail Magazine March 2006 had an article exploring the idea of hybrid diesel electric propulsion for sail boats. Though it seems counterintuitive, the theory is
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 30, 2006
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                        Sail Magazine March 2006 had an article exploring the idea of hybrid
                        diesel electric propulsion for sail boats. Though it seems
                        counterintuitive, the theory is that a diesel generator running at
                        optimum revs can more than make up for the inefficiency of converting
                        to electric power for providing propulsion. Added benefits are freedom
                        of placement for the power plant and much reduced size and ease of
                        installation for the drive motor. Here is one link to the
                        Fischer-Panda version of this though the article in Sail was very well
                        researched and well worth tracking down and not at all invested in any
                        one company's particular products.
                        Hope this helps as you ponder your power options
                        Felix
                        P.S. Did anyone ever have any thoughts on what I can use to fill the
                        idiot grooves carved in my Doly Varden's deck to give a nice flat
                        surface I can canvas over?
                        --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Niels" <sail2xs@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Here are two sources for some information:
                        >
                        > http://boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=12%2D431
                        >
                        > http://boatbuildercentral.com/diesel/newinstallation.php
                        >
                        > Would a 25hp gas inboard work on Rescue Minor? I imagine it would
                        > with proper gearing.
                        >
                        > Niels
                        >
                        > > Also, there was a mention of books, but I haven't seen anything that
                        > > covers DIY small inboards. Any specific recommendations?
                        > >
                        > > Thanks for your encouragement. Now to do a luauan template of the
                        > > bow panels... If anybody wants to talk, my number is
                        > > Two-Oh-Seven 650>3235 (sorry to be coy, but this is a public place)
                        > >
                        > > Sal's Dad
                        > >
                        >
                      • Felix Graham-Jones
                        OOps - forgot the link. Here it is : http://www.solarnavigator.net/fischer_panda_diesel_electric.htm Hope this helps Felix ... that
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 30, 2006
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                          OOps - forgot the link.
                          Here it is :
                          http://www.solarnavigator.net/fischer_panda_diesel_electric.htm
                          Hope this helps
                          Felix
                          --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Felix Graham-Jones"
                          <felix.graham-jones@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Sail Magazine March 2006 had an article exploring the idea of hybrid
                          > diesel electric propulsion for sail boats. Though it seems
                          > counterintuitive, the theory is that a diesel generator running at
                          > optimum revs can more than make up for the inefficiency of converting
                          > to electric power for providing propulsion. Added benefits are freedom
                          > of placement for the power plant and much reduced size and ease of
                          > installation for the drive motor. Here is one link to the
                          > Fischer-Panda version of this though the article in Sail was very well
                          > researched and well worth tracking down and not at all invested in any
                          > one company's particular products.
                          > Hope this helps as you ponder your power options
                          > Felix
                          > P.S. Did anyone ever have any thoughts on what I can use to fill the
                          > idiot grooves carved in my Doly Varden's deck to give a nice flat
                          > surface I can canvas over?
                          > --- In AtkinBoats@yahoogroups.com, "Niels" <sail2xs@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Here are two sources for some information:
                          > >
                          > > http://boatdesigns.com/prodinfo.asp?number=12%2D431
                          > >
                          > > http://boatbuildercentral.com/diesel/newinstallation.php
                          > >
                          > > Would a 25hp gas inboard work on Rescue Minor? I imagine it would
                          > > with proper gearing.
                          > >
                          > > Niels
                          > >
                          > > > Also, there was a mention of books, but I haven't seen anything
                          that
                          > > > covers DIY small inboards. Any specific recommendations?
                          > > >
                          > > > Thanks for your encouragement. Now to do a luauan template of the
                          > > > bow panels... If anybody wants to talk, my number is
                          > > > Two-Oh-Seven 650>3235 (sorry to be coy, but this is a public place)
                          > > >
                          > > > Sal's Dad
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • sals_dad
                          I have posted a few more photos. Unfortunately, the hull isn t as fair as I would like, and I need to modify several temporary frames, so it will be coming
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 8, 2006
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                            I have posted a few more photos. Unfortunately, the hull isn't as
                            fair as I would like, and I need to modify several temporary frames,
                            so it will be coming apart. Those 20' panels are tough to maneuver
                            alone!

                            The photos also show a higher bow than designed. I figured why cut
                            away all that material in order to keep a straight sheerline? I tried
                            it in luaun leaving the full panel, and it was a bit pointy, and
                            compromised on having a bow 3 or 4 inches higher than the design.

                            One question, for Robb White - the bow does NOT want to come together
                            to Atkins' lines along the bottom and chine, the entry seems like it
                            will be fuller. This is visible in the photo of the bow frame and
                            plating. Do you see any advantage/problems with the bow being an inch
                            or two wider?

                            As to propulsion, I am looking for an inboard diesel. However, if
                            none can be had at a reasonable price, I will have a bulkhead in about
                            the right place for my hare-brained outboard idea. I figure a smallish
                            hole, with the anti-ventilation plate inside, above the bottom,
                            caulked to the hull plating, and an extension for the water pick-up.
                            I understand the point about not introducing air into the tunnel (or
                            perhaps more to the point, allowing water out!), but suspect exhaust
                            water will blow out astern before it is an issue.

                            Thanks for all the support and advice!

                            Sal's Dad
                          • Rob Rohde-Szudy
                            Hey Sal s Dad, looking really good. And I m glad you re doing this! I ll be extremely interested in seeing this when it s done. Robb s been trying to sell be
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 9, 2006
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                              Hey Sal's Dad, looking really good. And I'm glad you're doing this! I'll be extremely interested in seeing this when it's done. Robb's been trying to sell be on building it in aluminum, and I'll do it if I like yours! My only worry is the noise of aluminum hulls.

                              Atkin put the shear where he did to avoid excess windage. But Robb has mentioned that RM gets wet at higher speeds, so your higher bow might buy you a little leeway in that regard. I'd keep it high like your lauan template. Looks salty to my eye.

                              As for the bow width, it looks like something is off. I'm wondering if you accounted for the width of the stempost, however you're doing that. And I'd try hard to get those lumps out of the tunnel. (Here's where wood is great!) Looks like you're in range for fairing compound there, though.

                              As to power, Good luck on cheap diesel. If you find more than one, let me know! Probably you'll be stuck with the outboard powerhead if you want it cheap. But I really do think you'll need to move the exhaust. Adding exhaust gas to the tunnel will probably break the suction and make the water drop out of the tunnel. Not good. But it's easy to move the exhaust anyhow. I don't see why you wouldn't do it. Add a plate to block it out of the lower unit and add a pipe flange to the side of your cut-down leg. Then you just take it out with radiator hose to the transom. Hell, take it over the side with the setup you're looking at.

                              By the way, are those models of Shoals Runner and Rescue Minor in the same scale???

                              Best,
                              --Rob from Wisconsin


                              ---------------------------------
                              Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • sals_dad
                              ... has mentioned that RM gets wet at higher speeds, so your higher bow might buy you a little leeway in that regard. I d keep it high like your lauan
                              Message 14 of 16 , May 9, 2006
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                                Rob Rohde-Szudy wrote:
                                >
                                > Atkin put the shear where he did to avoid excess windage. But Robb
                                has mentioned that RM gets wet at higher speeds, so your higher bow
                                might buy you a little leeway in that regard. I'd keep it high like your
                                lauan template. Looks salty to my eye.

                                It's pretty high, and blocks view forward for a seated helmsman, to say
                                nothing of the kids who will sit up in the bow. As I noted, I have
                                compromised, raising it a few inches above the design.

                                > As for the bow width, it looks like something is off. I'm wondering
                                if you accounted for the width of the stempost, however you're doing
                                that. And I'd try hard to get those lumps out of the tunnel. (Here's
                                where wood is great!) Looks like you're in range for fairing compound
                                there, though.

                                I thought Iunderstood "developable surfaces" before starting this. But
                                working with 20' long aluminum plate, with an underbody shaped like
                                this, gives you a new appreciation. It doesn't take much change in the
                                twist to move the chines apart by an inch or so. I sure am glad I
                                overcut each panel by an inch! And creative application of a
                                come-along is helping to pull the panels into shape.

                                Trying to get curves just right, on your back under the hull with a
                                cordless driver to adjust the drywall screws, is a real treat. The
                                sharp edges of the metal keep me thinking maybe this is just a home-made
                                guillotine! And why on earth am I building this thing right-side up?
                                Seemed like a good idea, with that flat keel...

                                Welding will warp things all over, I hope not beyond recognition. There
                                will be no fairing compound, in any event.

                                > As to power, Good luck on cheap diesel. If you find more than one,
                                let me know! Probably you'll be stuck with the outboard powerhead if you
                                want it cheap. But I really do think you'll need to move the exhaust.
                                Adding exhaust gas to the tunnel will probably break the suction and
                                make the water drop out of the tunnel. Not good. But it's easy to move
                                the exhaust anyhow. I don't see why you wouldn't do it. Add a plate to
                                block it out of the lower unit and add a pipe flange to the side of your
                                cut-down leg. Then you just take it out with radiator hose to the
                                transom. Hell, take it over the side with the setup you're looking at.

                                If I go this route, I will try to NOT modify the outboard, as least any
                                more than absolutely necessary. But an exhaust outlet is a possibility.

                                > By the way, are those models of Shoals Runner and Rescue Minor in
                                the same scale???

                                No, RM is 1/4 scale, and SR is 3/10. I gave serious consideration to
                                building a scaled-up (24'+ waterline) Shoals Runner variation, with
                                less flare, a curved reverse transom (would be awesome in aluminum!) and
                                upright lobster-boat style house, sort of like the second photo at
                                http://www.fishermensvoice.com/archives/woodenboatbldg.html
                                <http://www.fishermensvoice.com/archives/woodenboatbldg.html> , or
                                http://www.rumerys.com/T38main.html
                                <http://www.rumerys.com/T38main.html> . Power by a Datsun 55hp
                                diesel... This project is not forgotten, just on the back burner! My
                                wife has been encouraging me to build this boat quick, as a prototype,
                                rather than fuss over the details, and build our ultimate boat next.

                                Best regards

                                Curtis (aka Sal's Dad)










                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • deceiverbob
                                Curtis, The boat is looking good. As the Rescue Minor is a boat that caught my eye, I took the time to model it in FreeShip deisgn shareware. It indicated
                                Message 15 of 16 , May 9, 2006
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                                  Curtis,
                                  The boat is looking good. As the Rescue Minor is a boat that caught my
                                  eye, I took the time to model it in FreeShip deisgn shareware. It
                                  indicated developability problems in the same places yours are showing
                                  themselves, mainly the tunnel region, the bow btween the chine and
                                  keel, and the midpoint of the keel where the bottom keel sides become
                                  distinct surfaces. Regarding fairing after the hull is welded, both
                                  steel and aluminum panels can be faired using a welding torch and
                                  water hose. Each panel is heated in a leopard spot pattern ;spots are
                                  approx 1" diameter spaced approx 2" apart, cooled immediately after
                                  the torch is moved. Steel is heated until it glows red, aluminum is
                                  harder as it melts before any color change is visible. If you try this
                                  practice on some scrap first. Good luck with the rest of your build.
                                  Bob.
                                • Rob Rohde-Szudy
                                  Clouds part, angels sing. Thanks deceiverbob! Great suggestion on torch fairing. Particularly given the inflexible difficulty of developable surfaces, and weld
                                  Message 16 of 16 , May 10, 2006
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                                    Clouds part, angels sing. Thanks deceiverbob! Great suggestion on torch fairing. Particularly given the inflexible difficulty of developable surfaces, and weld warping!

                                    That torpedo stern is a nice look, but your wife is right about doing something proven first. Also, scaling of these tunnel sterns have not always been 100% successful. There's a whole lot of science AND art that goes into making them work right. Sure with the Atkins were still alive to take commissions, eh?

                                    --Rob



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