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Dave - a nice book for you

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  • adam_bratter
    Dave Here is a nice book for you to read! http://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Politics/dp/0385511841 Let me know if you have still think
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 6, 2009
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      Dave

      Here is a nice book for you to read!
      http://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Politics/dp/0385511841

      Let me know if you have still think Liberal Fascism is an oxymoron after a good read by Mr. Goldberg.
    • pcvak1970
      I believe we are getting considerably off topic.
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 6, 2009
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        I believe we are getting considerably off topic.

        --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "adam_bratter" <adam_bratter@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dave
        >
        > Here is a nice book for you to read!
        > http://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Politics/dp/0385511841
        >
        > Let me know if you have still think Liberal Fascism is an oxymoron after a good read by Mr. Goldberg.
        >
      • Barryzwick@aol.com
        We are indeed getting off topic, but I find it fascinating. I much enjoy getting to know my brothers this way. And to Rebekah Canada, who serves as a voice of
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 6, 2009
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          We are indeed getting off topic, but I find it fascinating. I much enjoy getting to know my brothers this way.
           
          And to Rebekah Canada, who serves as a voice of cool enlightenment, I thank her again for all her contributions--and her tolerance.  
           
          If we were to use this forum only for learning about our origins, we would have only two or three messages a week, and they would be mostly speculation.
           
           
          Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
           
           
           
          In a message dated 10/6/2009 9:26:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jshappee@... writes:
           

          I believe we are getting considerably off topic.

          --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "adam_bratter" <adam_bratter@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > Dave
          >
          > Here is a nice book for you to read!
          > http://www.amazon. com/Liberal- Fascism-American -Mussolini- Politics/ dp/0385511841
          >
          > Let me know if you have still think Liberal Fascism is an oxymoron after a good read by Mr. Goldberg.
          >

          .

          0.0.010609.28378R:005fb474 E:3213.1379089173 V:10e7.138a.1.16.1.1.US S:Sprnstn84
        • Paul Kotik
          We may be very much on topic. Dave asked whether I thought Jews have special wiring. The stealthy insinuation of Jonah Goldberg s book into the conversation
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 6, 2009
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            We may be very much on topic.
             
            Dave asked whether I thought Jews have special wiring.  The stealthy insinuation of Jonah Goldberg's book into the conversation raises at least two very on-topic questions:
             
                1) How closely is said Jonah Goldberg related to us?
             
                2) Why is it that the Jews in America are and have been so very lopsided in their voting behavior and, underlying that, political loyalties?  Is this evidence of some special wiring?
             
            It seems to me I read that in the recent Presidential elections, somewhere between 80% -90% of the Jewish vote went to one candidate, the eventual winner, as it happened. My understanding is that this Jewish voting preference, party- and ideology-wise, was consistent with past practice. So much so that it scarcely elicits comment.
             
            But it's extraordinary!  It's extraordinarily lopsided. I'm not very knowledgeable of American electoral politics, but I don't offhand know of any other so homogeneous ethnic voting block in America, except for some cases in which the block was near-unanimous in voting for one of its own.
             
            There are convincing arguments that the Jews in America tend to vote against their parochial interests - they tend upscale on the socioeconomic ladder, for instance, yet consistently vote for redistributive policies, parties and candidates. Is this an expression of some wired-in altruism? Something else?
             
            The political behavior of America's Jews seems to me to be rather paradoxical, in striking parallel with the (knowingly, as the author wearily reminds us from time to time) oxymoronic title  of Goldberg's book: "Liberal Fascism".  If I remember right, Benito Mussolini enjoyed the support of a large majority of Italy's Jews when he scored his first big electoral success in 1921. The historical record suggests that my own Kotik ancestors in Belarus had a strong preference for a tyrannical central government ( the Russian Empire) because they were expert in the art of acting as that central government's agents, thus earning its protection from the troublesome peasants. 
             
            Hmmm....have we been here before? Are we again executing a strategy for sojourning in foriegn nations which has failed so tragically and terribly in the past? And if so, is it because it's in our wiring?
             
            Paul Kotik
            Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:45 AM
            Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

             

            We are indeed getting off topic, but I find it fascinating. I much enjoy getting to know my brothers this way.
             
            And to Rebekah Canada, who serves as a voice of cool enlightenment, I thank her again for all her contributions- -and her tolerance.  
             
            If we were to use this forum only for learning about our origins, we would have only two or three messages a week, and they would be mostly speculation.
             
             
            Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
             
             
             
            In a message dated 10/6/2009 9:26:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jshappee@juno. com writes:
             

            I believe we are getting considerably off topic.

            --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "adam_bratter" <adam_bratter@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > Dave
            >
            > Here is a nice book for you to read!
            > http://www.amazon. com/Liberal- Fascism-American -Mussolini- Politics/ dp/0385511841
            >
            > Let me know if you have still think Liberal Fascism is an oxymoron after a good read by Mr. Goldberg.
            >

            .

            0.0.010609.28378R: 005fb474 E:3213.1379089173 V:10e7.138a. 1.16.1.1. US S:Sprnstn84

          • B. Jeffrey Joseph
            All of the below may have some truth - but I ll go on record of one Q1b that did not vote for Obama and at this point can t understand how anyone would openly
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 6, 2009
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              All of the below may have some truth - but I'll go on record of one Q1b that did not vote for Obama and at this point can't understand how anyone would openly admit that they did... so my "wiring" may be different than the norm if I'm understanding the below correctly.

              Regardless, I am enjoying reading the banter between my cousins...




              From: Paul Kotik <paul.kotik@...>
              Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 1:18 AM
              To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

               

              We may be very much on topic.
               
              Dave asked whether I thought Jews have special wiring.  The stealthy insinuation of Jonah Goldberg's book into the conversation raises at least two very on-topic questions:
               
                  1) How closely is said Jonah Goldberg related to us?
               
                  2) Why is it that the Jews in America are and have been so very lopsided in their voting behavior and, underlying that, political loyalties?  Is this evidence of some special wiring?
               
              It seems to me I read that in the recent Presidential elections, somewhere between 80% -90% of the Jewish vote went to one candidate, the eventual winner, as it happened. My understanding is that this Jewish voting preference, party- and ideology-wise, was consistent with past practice. So much so that it scarcely elicits comment.
               
              But it's extraordinary!  It's extraordinarily lopsided. I'm not very knowledgeable of American electoral politics, but I don't offhand know of any other so homogeneous ethnic voting block in America, except for some cases in which the block was near-unanimous in voting for one of its own.
               
              There are convincing arguments that the Jews in America tend to vote against their parochial interests - they tend upscale on the socioeconomic ladder, for instance, yet consistently vote for redistributive policies, parties and candidates. Is this an expression of some wired-in altruism? Something else?
               
              The political behavior of America's Jews seems to me to be rather paradoxical, in striking parallel with the (knowingly, as the author wearily reminds us from time to time) oxymoronic title  of Goldberg's book: "Liberal Fascism".  If I remember right, Benito Mussolini enjoyed the support of a large majority of Italy's Jews when he scored his first big electoral success in 1921. The historical record suggests that my own Kotik ancestors in Belarus had a strong preference for a tyrannical central government ( the Russian Empire) because they were expert in the art of acting as that central government's agents, thus earning its protection from the troublesome peasants. 
               
              Hmmm....have we been here before? Are we again executing a strategy for sojourning in foriegn nations which has failed so tragically and terribly in the past? And if so, is it because it's in our wiring?
               
              Paul Kotik
              Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:45 AM
              Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

               

              We are indeed getting off topic, but I find it fascinating. I much enjoy getting to know my brothers this way.
               
              And to Rebekah Canada, who serves as a voice of cool enlightenment, I thank her again for all her contributions- -and her tolerance.  
               
              If we were to use this forum only for learning about our origins, we would have only two or three messages a week, and they would be mostly speculation.
               
               
              Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
               
               
               
              In a message dated 10/6/2009 9:26:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jshappee@juno. com writes:
               

              I believe we are getting considerably off topic.

              --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "adam_bratter" <adam_bratter@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Dave
              >
              > Here is a nice book for you to read!
              > http://www.amazon. com/Liberal- Fascism-American -Mussolini- Politics/ dp/0385511841
              >
              > Let me know if you have still think Liberal Fascism is an oxymoron after a good read by Mr. Goldberg.
              >

              .

              0.0.010609.28378R: 005fb474 E:3213.1379089173 V:10e7.138a. 1.16.1.1. US S:Sprnstn84

            • Lloyd Friedman
              Sorry to tell you about the latest Gallup pole. Before, 84% of Jews approved of Obama. Now it has dropped 23% http://www.rjchq.org/ The generation before us
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 7, 2009
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                Sorry to tell you about the latest Gallup pole. Before, 84% of Jews approved of Obama. Now it has dropped 23%
                The generation before us voted liberal no matter who was running. I am almost 67 and all my 6 siblings are conservative.
                My 3 brothers and I believe and practice the 2nd amendment. Socialism helped Jews in the past, but no longer.
                I worked for tips only, from the age of 12 till I got my working papers at 16. From that age I contributed maximum every year to every government mandatory tax.
                I paid my dues and I am against any body getting the same benefits that did not pay their dues unless they are truly in need.
                An obese person should not be on a food line. Leave that to the needy. My father went through the depression and never took a handout.
                He had to quit high school to collect junk. Used a pushcart to sell fruits and vegetables. Raised 6 children working on the NY subways.
                2 shifts. 1 as a conductor and 1 as a flagman on the tracts. Died at 64. We had 1 bathroom, an icebox until I was 12. No shower. Only 3 bedrooms
                for 6 kids. Our parents made sure we all finished school and served in the military. My parents always voted Democratic. I am a libertarian.
                1. Keep your thoughts out of my mind. Stop brainwashing our children. Even when I was in elementary school, we were taught communism from an instructor. PS184.
                2. Keep your hands out of my wallet.
                3. Keep your eyes out of my bedroom.
                Support Israel in every way we can.
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 1:18 AM
                Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                 

                We may be very much on topic.
                 
                Dave asked whether I thought Jews have special wiring.  The stealthy insinuation of Jonah Goldberg's book into the conversation raises at least two very on-topic questions:
                 
                    1) How closely is said Jonah Goldberg related to us?
                 
                    2) Why is it that the Jews in America are and have been so very lopsided in their voting behavior and, underlying that, political loyalties?  Is this evidence of some special wiring?
                 
                It seems to me I read that in the recent Presidential elections, somewhere between 80% -90% of the Jewish vote went to one candidate, the eventual winner, as it happened. My understanding is that this Jewish voting preference, party- and ideology-wise, was consistent with past practice. So much so that it scarcely elicits comment.
                 
                But it's extraordinary!  It's extraordinarily lopsided. I'm not very knowledgeable of American electoral politics, but I don't offhand know of any other so homogeneous ethnic voting block in America, except for some cases in which the block was near-unanimous in voting for one of its own.
                 
                There are convincing arguments that the Jews in America tend to vote against their parochial interests - they tend upscale on the socioeconomic ladder, for instance, yet consistently vote for redistributive policies, parties and candidates. Is this an expression of some wired-in altruism? Something else?
                 
                The political behavior of America's Jews seems to me to be rather paradoxical, in striking parallel with the (knowingly, as the author wearily reminds us from time to time) oxymoronic title  of Goldberg's book: "Liberal Fascism".  If I remember right, Benito Mussolini enjoyed the support of a large majority of Italy's Jews when he scored his first big electoral success in 1921. The historical record suggests that my own Kotik ancestors in Belarus had a strong preference for a tyrannical central government ( the Russian Empire) because they were expert in the art of acting as that central government's agents, thus earning its protection from the troublesome peasants. 
                 
                Hmmm....have we been here before? Are we again executing a strategy for sojourning in foriegn nations which has failed so tragically and terribly in the past? And if so, is it because it's in our wiring?
                 
                Paul Kotik
                Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:45 AM
                Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                 

                We are indeed getting off topic, but I find it fascinating. I much enjoy getting to know my brothers this way.
                 
                And to Rebekah Canada, who serves as a voice of cool enlightenment, I thank her again for all her contributions- -and her tolerance.  
                 
                If we were to use this forum only for learning about our origins, we would have only two or three messages a week, and they would be mostly speculation.
                 
                 
                Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
                 
                 
                 
                In a message dated 10/6/2009 9:26:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jshappee@juno. com writes:
                 

                I believe we are getting considerably off topic.

                --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "adam_bratter" <adam_bratter@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > Dave
                >
                > Here is a nice book for you to read!
                > http://www.amazon. com/Liberal- Fascism-American -Mussolini- Politics/ dp/0385511841
                >
                > Let me know if you have still think Liberal Fascism is an oxymoron after a good read by Mr. Goldberg.
                >

                .

                0.0.010609.28378R: 005fb474 E:3213.1379089173 V:10e7.138a. 1.16.1.1. US S:Sprnstn84

              • Robert Mark
                *Can we please get back to genetics!* I don t need your politics. ... -- Robert Mark, Ph.D. rmark@infomagic.net Rupestrian CyberServices
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 7, 2009
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                  Can we please get back to genetics! I don't need your politics.

                  Lloyd Friedman wrote:
                   

                  Sorry to tell you about the latest Gallup pole. Before, 84% of Jews approved of Obama. Now it has dropped 23%
                  The generation before us voted liberal no matter who was running. I am almost 67 and all my 6 siblings are conservative.
                  My 3 brothers and I believe and practice the 2nd amendment. Socialism helped Jews in the past, but no longer.
                  I worked for tips only, from the age of 12 till I got my working papers at 16. From that age I contributed maximum every year to every government mandatory tax.
                  I paid my dues and I am against any body getting the same benefits that did not pay their dues unless they are truly in need.
                  An obese person should not be on a food line. Leave that to the needy. My father went through the depression and never took a handout.
                  He had to quit high school to collect junk. Used a pushcart to sell fruits and vegetables. Raised 6 children working on the NY subways.
                  2 shifts. 1 as a conductor and 1 as a flagman on the tracts. Died at 64. We had 1 bathroom, an icebox until I was 12. No shower. Only 3 bedrooms
                  for 6 kids. Our parents made sure we all finished school and served in the military. My parents always voted Democratic. I am a libertarian.
                  1. Keep your thoughts out of my mind. Stop brainwashing our children. Even when I was in elementary school, we were taught communism from an instructor. PS184.
                  2. Keep your hands out of my wallet.
                  3. Keep your eyes out of my bedroom.
                  Support Israel in every way we can.
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 1:18 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                   

                  We may be very much on topic.
                   
                  Dave asked whether I thought Jews have special wiring.  The stealthy insinuation of Jonah Goldberg's book into the conversation raises at least two very on-topic questions:
                   
                      1) How closely is said Jonah Goldberg related to us?
                   
                      2) Why is it that the Jews in America are and have been so very lopsided in their voting behavior and, underlying that, political loyalties?  Is this evidence of some special wiring?
                   
                  It seems to me I read that in the recent Presidential elections, somewhere between 80% -90% of the Jewish vote went to one candidate, the eventual winner, as it happened. My understanding is that this Jewish voting preference, party- and ideology-wise, was consistent with past practice. So much so that it scarcely elicits comment.
                   
                  But it's extraordinary!  It's extraordinarily lopsided. I'm not very knowledgeable of American electoral politics, but I don't offhand know of any other so homogeneous ethnic voting block in America, except for some cases in which the block was near-unanimous in voting for one of its own.
                   
                  There are convincing arguments that the Jews in America tend to vote against their parochial interests - they tend upscale on the socioeconomic ladder, for instance, yet consistently vote for redistributive policies, parties and candidates. Is this an expression of some wired-in altruism? Something else?
                   
                  The political behavior of America's Jews seems to me to be rather paradoxical, in striking parallel with the (knowingly, as the author wearily reminds us from time to time) oxymoronic title  of Goldberg's book: "Liberal Fascism".  If I remember right, Benito Mussolini enjoyed the support of a large majority of Italy's Jews when he scored his first big electoral success in 1921. The historical record suggests that my own Kotik ancestors in Belarus had a strong preference for a tyrannical central government ( the Russian Empire) because they were expert in the art of acting as that central government's agents, thus earning its protection from the troublesome peasants. 
                   
                  Hmmm....have we been here before? Are we again executing a strategy for sojourning in foriegn nations which has failed so tragically and terribly in the past? And if so, is it because it's in our wiring?
                   
                  Paul Kotik
                  Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:45 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                   

                  We are indeed getting off topic, but I find it fascinating. I much enjoy getting to know my brothers this way.
                   
                  And to Rebekah Canada, who serves as a voice of cool enlightenment, I thank her again for all her contributions- -and her tolerance.  
                   
                  If we were to use this forum only for learning about our origins, we would have only two or three messages a week, and they would be mostly speculation.
                   
                   
                  Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
                   
                   
                   
                  In a message dated 10/6/2009 9:26:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jshappee@juno. com writes:
                   

                  I believe we are getting considerably off topic.

                  --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "adam_bratter" <adam_bratter@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dave
                  >
                  > Here is a nice book for you to read!
                  > http://www.amazon. com/Liberal- Fascism-American -Mussolini- Politics/ dp/0385511841
                  >
                  > Let me know if you have still think Liberal Fascism is an oxymoron after a good read by Mr. Goldberg.
                  >

                  .

                  0.0.010609.28378R: 005fb474 E:3213.1379089173 V:10e7.138a. 1.16.1.1. US S:Sprnstn84

                  --
                  Robert Mark, Ph.D.               rmark@...
                  Rupestrian CyberServices    Phone/FAX 928-526-3625
                  3644 N. Stone Crest St.        http://www.rupestrian.com/
                  Flagstaff, AZ 86004-6811
                  USA

                  RCS: Computer science in the service of rock art research, protection, and education.

                • Paul Kotik
                  RIght on, Lloyd. Please feel no sorrow whatsoever about informing me of that Gallup poll. I m quite astounded. While the attitudes you ve expressed are similar
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 7, 2009
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                    RIght on, Lloyd. Please feel no sorrow whatsoever about informing me of that Gallup poll. I'm quite astounded. While the attitudes you've expressed are similar to my own, and to those of many of the Jews with whom I'm personally acquainted here in Florida and elsewhere, the conventional wisdom would certainly say they're the exception ( and a rare one) in the American Jewish population.
                     
                    The question I was getting at is whether our little Q1b clan would turn out to be similar to or different from the Jewish population in general, with regard to political attitudes, aesthetics, aptitudes, and so on. If everybody in our group were as willing as you are to be candid, I think we could learn something interesting about ourselves and about the larger populations of which we're a sub-set.
                     
                    I simply don't have the technical skills required to make a survey research project of our group. I vaguely remember from school, decades ago, that things like that are done all the time ( like by Gallup ) and that it's well known how to do it. I wish somebody in our group knew how to organize the project of collecting the data and forming a profile of our group that can be compared to other populations. It could ( and probably should) be anonymous, that is, we are interested in how many of us think what, not who in particular thinks what.
                     
                    Israel is on the precipice. It is likely to be very, very bad whichever way things break. I spent a couple of months in 2008 jumping through bureaucratic hoops and getting poked by doctors to re-activate myself as an Israel Defence Forces reserve soldier, at age 58.  I have grave forebodings about the near future. I hear very chilling things when I talk to in-laws who are directly involved in civil defense matters there.
                     
                    Best,
                     
                    Paul Kotik
                    Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 8:49 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                     

                    Sorry to tell you about the latest Gallup pole. Before, 84% of Jews approved of Obama. Now it has dropped 23%
                    The generation before us voted liberal no matter who was running. I am almost 67 and all my 6 siblings are conservative.
                    My 3 brothers and I believe and practice the 2nd amendment. Socialism helped Jews in the past, but no longer.
                    I worked for tips only, from the age of 12 till I got my working papers at 16. From that age I contributed maximum every year to every government mandatory tax.
                    I paid my dues and I am against any body getting the same benefits that did not pay their dues unless they are truly in need.
                    An obese person should not be on a food line. Leave that to the needy. My father went through the depression and never took a handout.
                    He had to quit high school to collect junk. Used a pushcart to sell fruits and vegetables. Raised 6 children working on the NY subways.
                    2 shifts. 1 as a conductor and 1 as a flagman on the tracts. Died at 64. We had 1 bathroom, an icebox until I was 12. No shower. Only 3 bedrooms
                    for 6 kids. Our parents made sure we all finished school and served in the military. My parents always voted Democratic. I am a libertarian.
                    1. Keep your thoughts out of my mind. Stop brainwashing our children. Even when I was in elementary school, we were taught communism from an instructor. PS184.
                    2. Keep your hands out of my wallet.
                    3. Keep your eyes out of my bedroom.
                    Support Israel in every way we can.
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 1:18 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                     

                    We may be very much on topic.
                     
                    Dave asked whether I thought Jews have special wiring.  The stealthy insinuation of Jonah Goldberg's book into the conversation raises at least two very on-topic questions:
                     
                        1) How closely is said Jonah Goldberg related to us?
                     
                        2) Why is it that the Jews in America are and have been so very lopsided in their voting behavior and, underlying that, political loyalties?  Is this evidence of some special wiring?
                     
                    It seems to me I read that in the recent Presidential elections, somewhere between 80% -90% of the Jewish vote went to one candidate, the eventual winner, as it happened. My understanding is that this Jewish voting preference, party- and ideology-wise, was consistent with past practice. So much so that it scarcely elicits comment.
                     
                    But it's extraordinary!  It's extraordinarily lopsided. I'm not very knowledgeable of American electoral politics, but I don't offhand know of any other so homogeneous ethnic voting block in America, except for some cases in which the block was near-unanimous in voting for one of its own.
                     
                    There are convincing arguments that the Jews in America tend to vote against their parochial interests - they tend upscale on the socioeconomic ladder, for instance, yet consistently vote for redistributive policies, parties and candidates. Is this an expression of some wired-in altruism? Something else?
                     
                    The political behavior of America's Jews seems to me to be rather paradoxical, in striking parallel with the (knowingly, as the author wearily reminds us from time to time) oxymoronic title  of Goldberg's book: "Liberal Fascism".  If I remember right, Benito Mussolini enjoyed the support of a large majority of Italy's Jews when he scored his first big electoral success in 1921. The historical record suggests that my own Kotik ancestors in Belarus had a strong preference for a tyrannical central government ( the Russian Empire) because they were expert in the art of acting as that central government's agents, thus earning its protection from the troublesome peasants. 
                     
                    Hmmm....have we been here before? Are we again executing a strategy for sojourning in foriegn nations which has failed so tragically and terribly in the past? And if so, is it because it's in our wiring?
                     
                    Paul Kotik
                    Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:45 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                     

                    We are indeed getting off topic, but I find it fascinating. I much enjoy getting to know my brothers this way.
                     
                    And to Rebekah Canada, who serves as a voice of cool enlightenment, I thank her again for all her contributions- -and her tolerance.  
                     
                    If we were to use this forum only for learning about our origins, we would have only two or three messages a week, and they would be mostly speculation.
                     
                     
                    Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
                     
                     
                     
                    In a message dated 10/6/2009 9:26:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jshappee@juno. com writes:
                     

                    I believe we are getting considerably off topic.

                    --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "adam_bratter" <adam_bratter@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                    > Here is a nice book for you to read!
                    > http://www.amazon. com/Liberal- Fascism-American -Mussolini- Politics/ dp/0385511841
                    >
                    > Let me know if you have still think Liberal Fascism is an oxymoron after a good read by Mr. Goldberg.
                    >

                    .

                    0.0.010609.28378R: 005fb474 E:3213.1379089173 V:10e7.138a. 1.16.1.1. US S:Sprnstn84

                  • Paul Kotik
                    Can we address the question of whether politics is genetics? And if so, to what extent and through what mechanisms? Politics is too small a word for the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 7, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Can we address the question of whether politics is genetics? And if so, to what extent and through what mechanisms?
                       
                       Politics is too small a word for the content of Lloyd's posting, in my opinion. Lloyd has made what seems to me a very rich expression of what is arguably the most important element of a human phenotype: his mind, or, if you will, his soul. If we're to limit our discussion of genetics to simple physical expressions such as red hair, why, we might as well be talking about breeding hamsters. Not very interesting.
                       
                      We are human beings. Our minds and our souls are what distinguish us from the beasts and fishes. The expression of genes in our minds and souls is surely the most profoundly interesting discussion in genetics, no?
                       
                      Lloyd's post was not polemic in nature. It is not meant to persuade or to promote. He simply came forward with a candid disclosure of his personal traits. I fully understand that many of us are full up-to-here with the nonstop bombardment of propaganda and hyperbole from every political direction. I know I am!  But that's not what Lloyd was up to. Lloyd was addressing the deep question:  "Who are we?".
                       
                      My intuition is that our little clan is special and interesting, in ways we don't yet understand very well. I'm staying tuned.
                       
                      Best,
                       
                      Paul Kotik
                      Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 8:55 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                       

                      Can we please get back to genetics! I don't need your politics.

                      Lloyd Friedman wrote:

                       

                      Sorry to tell you about the latest Gallup pole. Before, 84% of Jews approved of Obama. Now it has dropped 23%
                      The generation before us voted liberal no matter who was running. I am almost 67 and all my 6 siblings are conservative.
                      My 3 brothers and I believe and practice the 2nd amendment. Socialism helped Jews in the past, but no longer.
                      I worked for tips only, from the age of 12 till I got my working papers at 16. From that age I contributed maximum every year to every government mandatory tax.
                      I paid my dues and I am against any body getting the same benefits that did not pay their dues unless they are truly in need.
                      An obese person should not be on a food line. Leave that to the needy. My father went through the depression and never took a handout.
                      He had to quit high school to collect junk. Used a pushcart to sell fruits and vegetables. Raised 6 children working on the NY subways.
                      2 shifts. 1 as a conductor and 1 as a flagman on the tracts. Died at 64. We had 1 bathroom, an icebox until I was 12. No shower. Only 3 bedrooms
                      for 6 kids. Our parents made sure we all finished school and served in the military. My parents always voted Democratic. I am a libertarian.
                      1. Keep your thoughts out of my mind. Stop brainwashing our children. Even when I was in elementary school, we were taught communism from an instructor. PS184.
                      2. Keep your hands out of my wallet.
                      3. Keep your eyes out of my bedroom.
                      Support Israel in every way we can.
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 1:18 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                       

                      We may be very much on topic.
                       
                      Dave asked whether I thought Jews have special wiring.  The stealthy insinuation of Jonah Goldberg's book into the conversation raises at least two very on-topic questions:
                       
                          1) How closely is said Jonah Goldberg related to us?
                       
                          2) Why is it that the Jews in America are and have been so very lopsided in their voting behavior and, underlying that, political loyalties?  Is this evidence of some special wiring?
                       
                      It seems to me I read that in the recent Presidential elections, somewhere between 80% -90% of the Jewish vote went to one candidate, the eventual winner, as it happened. My understanding is that this Jewish voting preference, party- and ideology-wise, was consistent with past practice. So much so that it scarcely elicits comment.
                       
                      But it's extraordinary!  It's extraordinarily lopsided. I'm not very knowledgeable of American electoral politics, but I don't offhand know of any other so homogeneous ethnic voting block in America, except for some cases in which the block was near-unanimous in voting for one of its own.
                       
                      There are convincing arguments that the Jews in America tend to vote against their parochial interests - they tend upscale on the socioeconomic ladder, for instance, yet consistently vote for redistributive policies, parties and candidates. Is this an expression of some wired-in altruism? Something else?
                       
                      The political behavior of America's Jews seems to me to be rather paradoxical, in striking parallel with the (knowingly, as the author wearily reminds us from time to time) oxymoronic title  of Goldberg's book: "Liberal Fascism".  If I remember right, Benito Mussolini enjoyed the support of a large majority of Italy's Jews when he scored his first big electoral success in 1921. The historical record suggests that my own Kotik ancestors in Belarus had a strong preference for a tyrannical central government ( the Russian Empire) because they were expert in the art of acting as that central government's agents, thus earning its protection from the troublesome peasants. 
                       
                      Hmmm....have we been here before? Are we again executing a strategy for sojourning in foriegn nations which has failed so tragically and terribly in the past? And if so, is it because it's in our wiring?
                       
                      Paul Kotik
                      Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:45 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                       

                      We are indeed getting off topic, but I find it fascinating. I much enjoy getting to know my brothers this way.
                       
                      And to Rebekah Canada, who serves as a voice of cool enlightenment, I thank her again for all her contributions- -and her tolerance.  
                       
                      If we were to use this forum only for learning about our origins, we would have only two or three messages a week, and they would be mostly speculation.
                       
                       
                      Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
                       
                       
                       
                      In a message dated 10/6/2009 9:26:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jshappee@juno. com writes:
                       

                      I believe we are getting considerably off topic.

                      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "adam_bratter" <adam_bratter@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dave
                      >
                      > Here is a nice book for you to read!
                      > http://www.amazon. com/Liberal- Fascism-American -Mussolini- Politics/ dp/0385511841
                      >
                      > Let me know if you have still think Liberal Fascism is an oxymoron after a good read by Mr. Goldberg.
                      >

                      .

                      0.0.010609.28378R: 005fb474 E:3213.1379089173 V:10e7.138a. 1.16.1.1. US S:Sprnstn84


                      --
                      Robert Mark, Ph.D.               rmark@infomagic. net
                      Rupestrian CyberServices    Phone/FAX 928-526-3625
                      3644 N. Stone Crest St.        http://www.rupestri an.com/
                      Flagstaff, AZ 86004-6811
                      USA

                      RCS: Computer science in the service of rock art research, protection, and education.

                    • Rebekah Canada
                      Paul, We will get to modern events soon. Right now we are doing the end of the middle ages and the beginning of the renascence. :-) Regards, Rebekah
                      Message 10 of 16 , Oct 7, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Paul,

                        We will get to modern events soon. Right now we are doing the end of the middle ages and the beginning of the renascence. :-)

                        Regards,
                        Rebekah

                        On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 8:47 AM, Paul Kotik <paul.kotik@...> wrote:


                        Can we address the question of whether politics is genetics? And if so, to what extent and through what mechanisms?
                      • NADENE GOLDFOOT
                        Paul and Lloyd, I can t help but jump into this one with a reply that I have posted on my blog. So if you don t mind a female cousin s opinion, here it is:
                        Message 11 of 16 , Oct 7, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Paul and Lloyd, I can't help but jump into this one with a reply that I have posted on my blog.  So if you don't mind a female cousin's opinion, here it is: one thing we all have in common genetically  s the interest in writing.  I know, it's politics below, so sorry.  But I've read that there may even be a gene that shapes our choices, too, or interest in.  Genetically speaking, I'm following a distant cousin, Stanley Goldfoot, in his political choices pretty much.  Oh well, here goes....... 

                          Sunday, September 13, 2009

                          Why Did American Jews Risk Israel in Their Voting? Nadene's Opinion

                          There have been more than two very interesting articles about why Jews are Democrats. They both give the history of why most Jews voted Democratically. Since World War II when President Roosevelt was in power, we have been grateful to find America a haven from the killing fields in Europe that took the lives of six million Jews. Thank goodness we were here.

                          We've been very loyal to Roosevelt's party. Now we've had 65 years of living peacefully in the United States, which is quite a stretch for us Jews. We've come from being kept out of organizations because of our religion to being accepted. We were kept out of jobs and schools and now find ourselves just one of the guys. Life has become good. That's almost three generations from Europe and pogroms and the holocaust. Our present generation knows very little about our past unless the parents were directly involved with past events. Our school systems do not dwell on this part of history, so our children just have not become impacted by it. How many attend Sunday School and even listen to the history portion in class? Being a past teacher and Sunday School teacher in Oregon, I know that very little has reached our young citizens.

                          I was on the Democratic Party's inner circle in Eastern Oregon, and even had a a party after an election before 1980 when our man won. I graciously invited my mother to the party even though she was a rebel and had voted Republican. I never considered ever voting Republican. She said she was more interested in what they stood for and not the party. She really investigated them. Her vote cancelled out my father's vote, but they learned to live with it.

                          When it came to voting again in this election, I found Democrats to be so engrossed in the identification of being a Democrat that they did not consider Israel's life at all. They were appalled at being questioned about it. The fact that the Bush Era had been such a mess determined their judgements. Anything to get away from the Republicans was their thinking in my opinion. Their thoughts were the same as most Americans. Stop the war. Save the soldiers. Obama was such an artful speaker. Who could argue against him? The world loved him. He was good for America and would be the first black president. Voters were more interested in saving the planet and going green than rescuing Israel.

                          I am an American with dual citizenship with Israel. I lived there for over five years teaching English as a Foreign Language in Safed. It was amazing to check with my mother back home in Oregon to find that what was happening in Israel was not reported in her papers. Obviously, the reporters were only interested in anything that showed how bad Israel was instead of all the horrid things happening to her or mention the good things it was creating and sharing with the world. It was depressing to find that prejudice existed again after our revival of support in 1967.

                          There were so many indications that Obama would not be supportive of Israel if elected, but most Democratic Jews that I knew would not read or consider the findings and possibilities. Israel was outweighed in their decisions. I suppose they quickly thought that Israel could overcome any obstacle it met regardless of Obama's leanings. After all, look how many wars it had come through since 1948. Some even may have thought that Ha-Shem would protect. The outcome was that most Jews voted Democratically in the last election. Israel is having one heck of a time being pressured to lose Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria. It has already lost Gaza which it really didn't want in the first place but found it placed in their lap. The goal of the surrounding Arabs and especially the Palestinians is to get rid of Israel, and they are closer now than ever with Iran threatening Israel with an atomic missile. Most of the world is of course not assisting Israel. They really didn't want its creation in the first place, except the Evangelical Christians who are most supportive.

                          My sincere thoughts are this. Israel was created in my lifetime after 2,000 years of lying dormant. This is a time spoken of in the past. It's a revival period of our ancestor's home and our history. We are the ones that are responsible for its continuation. This heavy responsibility is ours now. We were the leaders of conscience being the mother religion with Christianity and Muslims as the children. What are we doing about its life?

                          Resource: Why Are Jews Liberals by Norman Podhoretz-opinion: Wall Street Journal
                          http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574402591116901498.html

                          Why Are Jews Liberals-A Symposium: Commentary Magazine- look for Jeff Jacoby's article-also David Wolpe, Jonathan D. Sarna, Michael Medved, William Kristol wrote articles there. http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/why-are-jews-liberals-a-symposium-15223
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:47 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                           

                          Can we address the question of whether politics is genetics? And if so, to what extent and through what mechanisms?
                           
                           Politics is too small a word for the content of Lloyd's posting, in my opinion. Lloyd has made what seems to me a very rich expression of what is arguably the most important element of a human phenotype: his mind, or, if you will, his soul. If we're to limit our discussion of genetics to simple physical expressions such as red hair, why, we might as well be talking about breeding hamsters. Not very interesting.
                           
                          We are human beings. Our minds and our souls are what distinguish us from the beasts and fishes. The expression of genes in our minds and souls is surely the most profoundly interesting discussion in genetics, no?
                           
                          Lloyd's post was not polemic in nature. It is not meant to persuade or to promote. He simply came forward with a candid disclosure of his personal traits. I fully understand that many of us are full up-to-here with the nonstop bombardment of propaganda and hyperbole from every political direction. I know I am!  But that's not what Lloyd was up to. Lloyd was addressing the deep question:  "Who are we?".
                           
                          My intuition is that our little clan is special and interesting, in ways we don't yet understand very well. I'm staying tuned.
                           
                          Best,
                           
                          Paul Kotik
                          Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 8:55 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                           

                          Can we please get back to genetics! I don't need your politics.

                          Lloyd Friedman wrote:

                           

                          Sorry to tell you about the latest Gallup pole. Before, 84% of Jews approved of Obama. Now it has dropped 23%
                          The generation before us voted liberal no matter who was running. I am almost 67 and all my 6 siblings are conservative.
                          My 3 brothers and I believe and practice the 2nd amendment. Socialism helped Jews in the past, but no longer.
                          I worked for tips only, from the age of 12 till I got my working papers at 16. From that age I contributed maximum every year to every government mandatory tax.
                          I paid my dues and I am against any body getting the same benefits that did not pay their dues unless they are truly in need.
                          An obese person should not be on a food line. Leave that to the needy. My father went through the depression and never took a handout.
                          He had to quit high school to collect junk. Used a pushcart to sell fruits and vegetables. Raised 6 children working on the NY subways.
                          2 shifts. 1 as a conductor and 1 as a flagman on the tracts. Died at 64. We had 1 bathroom, an icebox until I was 12. No shower. Only 3 bedrooms
                          for 6 kids. Our parents made sure we all finished school and served in the military. My parents always voted Democratic. I am a libertarian.
                          1. Keep your thoughts out of my mind. Stop brainwashing our children. Even when I was in elementary school, we were taught communism from an instructor. PS184.
                          2. Keep your hands out of my wallet.
                          3. Keep your eyes out of my bedroom.
                          Support Israel in every way we can.
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 1:18 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                           

                          We may be very much on topic.
                           
                          Dave asked whether I thought Jews have special wiring.  The stealthy insinuation of Jonah Goldberg's book into the conversation raises at least two very on-topic questions:
                           
                              1) How closely is said Jonah Goldberg related to us?
                           
                              2) Why is it that the Jews in America are and have been so very lopsided in their voting behavior and, underlying that, political loyalties?  Is this evidence of some special wiring?
                           
                          It seems to me I read that in the recent Presidential elections, somewhere between 80% -90% of the Jewish vote went to one candidate, the eventual winner, as it happened. My understanding is that this Jewish voting preference, party- and ideology-wise, was consistent with past practice. So much so that it scarcely elicits comment.
                           
                          But it's extraordinary!  It's extraordinarily lopsided. I'm not very knowledgeable of American electoral politics, but I don't offhand know of any other so homogeneous ethnic voting block in America, except for some cases in which the block was near-unanimous in voting for one of its own.
                           
                          There are convincing arguments that the Jews in America tend to vote against their parochial interests - they tend upscale on the socioeconomic ladder, for instance, yet consistently vote for redistributive policies, parties and candidates. Is this an expression of some wired-in altruism? Something else?
                           
                          The political behavior of America's Jews seems to me to be rather paradoxical, in striking parallel with the (knowingly, as the author wearily reminds us from time to time) oxymoronic title  of Goldberg's book: "Liberal Fascism".  If I remember right, Benito Mussolini enjoyed the support of a large majority of Italy's Jews when he scored his first big electoral success in 1921. The historical record suggests that my own Kotik ancestors in Belarus had a strong preference for a tyrannical central government ( the Russian Empire) because they were expert in the art of acting as that central government's agents, thus earning its protection from the troublesome peasants. 
                           
                          Hmmm....have we been here before? Are we again executing a strategy for sojourning in foriegn nations which has failed so tragically and terribly in the past? And if so, is it because it's in our wiring?
                           
                          Paul Kotik
                          Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:45 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                           

                          We are indeed getting off topic, but I find it fascinating. I much enjoy getting to know my brothers this way.
                           
                          And to Rebekah Canada, who serves as a voice of cool enlightenment, I thank her again for all her contributions- -and her tolerance.  
                           
                          If we were to use this forum only for learning about our origins, we would have only two or three messages a week, and they would be mostly speculation.
                           
                           
                          Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
                           
                           
                           
                          In a message dated 10/6/2009 9:26:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jshappee@juno. com writes:
                           

                          I believe we are getting considerably off topic.

                          --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "adam_bratter" <adam_bratter@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dave
                          >
                          > Here is a nice book for you to read!
                          > http://www.amazon. com/Liberal- Fascism-American -Mussolini- Politics/ dp/0385511841
                          >
                          > Let me know if you have still think Liberal Fascism is an oxymoron after a good read by Mr. Goldberg.
                          >

                          .

                          0.0.010609.28378R: 005fb474 E:3213.1379089173 V:10e7.138a. 1.16.1.1. US S:Sprnstn84


                          --
                          Robert Mark, Ph.D.               rmark@infomagic. net
                          Rupestrian CyberServices    Phone/FAX 928-526-3625
                          3644 N. Stone Crest St.        http://www.rupestri an.com/
                          Flagstaff, AZ 86004-6811
                          USA

                          RCS: Computer science in the service of rock art research, protection, and education.

                        • Paul Kotik
                          You re a wonderful writer, Nadene. Thank you. How about this proto-theory: I had occasion to read an autobiographical work by a Kotik who was born in the
                          Message 12 of 16 , Oct 7, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            You're a wonderful writer, Nadene. Thank you.
                             
                            How about this proto-theory:
                             
                            I had occasion to read an autobiographical work by a Kotik who was born in the mid-19th Century in what is now Belarus, now apparently available in English.
                             
                            The modus vivendi, the adaptive strategy his Kotik clan had adopted ( apparently centuries earlier) was to serve the Russian Czar, that is, the central government of the Russian Empire, as local agents. The head of the family, one Aharon-Layser Kotik, was kind of like a Don Corleone in true partnership with government. He did things like manage the district's selection of boys for the Czar's military draft - the term of service was then 25 years, and the presumption was that a boy conscripted into the Imperial army would never be seen again. The Kotiks enjoyed a state-enforced monopoly in the district on the production and distribution of alcoholic beverages.  Later in the 19th Century, they grew a business of serving more local Big Men, namely, the Polish aristocrat landowners, as managers, accountants, and administrators.  The aristocrats were mostly illiterate and mostly interested in drinking, gambling and hunting.
                             
                            The Empire, distally, and the aristocrats, proximally, provided these Jews with financial reward and with protection from the peasantry, who outnumbered them by a very large multiple.  
                             
                            The general form of this strategy is for Jews to exploit their apparently intrinsic cognitive advantages by serving the center of power as symbol manipulators: lawyers, accountants, bureaucrats, interpreters, doctors, advocates, and so on.
                             
                            I think the case can be made that this is the origin of the adapative strategy we've seen in the Jews in America: vote for and encourage the growth of state power while securing position and prospering by serving at the control panel of the increasingly massive and powerful state. 
                             
                            So far, it has worked pretty well, in a sense.
                             
                            However, it has in the past almost always ( I say "almost", but can't think of any exceptions myself) ended in disaster.  Tyranny seems to be a self-liquidating phenom. At any rate, none of 'em last, and when things go bad the angry peasants always come looking for the people at the control panel.
                             
                            Am I wrong? Has there been some place in space and time wherewhen the Jews did not screw it up and suffer expulsion, genocide, enslavement, or the like?  Yes, I do say it's been our fault. The Muslims are fond of blaming the rest of the world for all that's gone wrong in theirs. We say : "If I am not for me, who is for me ?" (Eem ain ani li, mi li ?). 
                             
                            So - are we doing it again in America?  Let's suppose this current experiment in revolution-by-ballot ends as disasterously as have so many like it in the past. What, then, will be the position of the Jews in America?
                             
                            The historic pattern seems so clear, one cannot but wonder whether there's a genetic element. Maybe it's as simple as a set of cognitive traits that express in functional advantages which channel adaptation in certain ways. Maybe less, maybe more.
                             
                             
                            Best,
                             
                             
                            Paul Kotik
                            Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 10:08 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                             

                            Paul and Lloyd, I can't help but jump into this one with a reply that I have posted on my blog.  So if you don't mind a female cousin's opinion, here it is: one thing we all have in common genetically  s the interest in writing.  I know, it's politics below, so sorry.  But I've read that there may even be a gene that shapes our choices, too, or interest in.  Genetically speaking, I'm following a distant cousin, Stanley Goldfoot, in his political choices pretty much.  Oh well, here goes....... 

                            Sunday, September 13, 2009

                            Why Did American Jews Risk Israel in Their Voting? Nadene's Opinion

                            There have been more than two very interesting articles about why Jews are Democrats. They both give the history of why most Jews voted Democratically. Since World War II when President Roosevelt was in power, we have been grateful to find America a haven from the killing fields in Europe that took the lives of six million Jews. Thank goodness we were here.

                            We've been very loyal to Roosevelt's party. Now we've had 65 years of living peacefully in the United States, which is quite a stretch for us Jews. We've come from being kept out of organizations because of our religion to being accepted. We were kept out of jobs and schools and now find ourselves just one of the guys. Life has become good. That's almost three generations from Europe and pogroms and the holocaust. Our present generation knows very little about our past unless the parents were directly involved with past events. Our school systems do not dwell on this part of history, so our children just have not become impacted by it. How many attend Sunday School and even listen to the history portion in class? Being a past teacher and Sunday School teacher in Oregon, I know that very little has reached our young citizens.

                            I was on the Democratic Party's inner circle in Eastern Oregon, and even had a a party after an election before 1980 when our man won. I graciously invited my mother to the party even though she was a rebel and had voted Republican. I never considered ever voting Republican. She said she was more interested in what they stood for and not the party. She really investigated them. Her vote cancelled out my father's vote, but they learned to live with it.

                            When it came to voting again in this election, I found Democrats to be so engrossed in the identification of being a Democrat that they did not consider Israel's life at all. They were appalled at being questioned about it. The fact that the Bush Era had been such a mess determined their judgements. Anything to get away from the Republicans was their thinking in my opinion. Their thoughts were the same as most Americans. Stop the war. Save the soldiers. Obama was such an artful speaker. Who could argue against him? The world loved him. He was good for America and would be the first black president. Voters were more interested in saving the planet and going green than rescuing Israel.

                            I am an American with dual citizenship with Israel. I lived there for over five years teaching English as a Foreign Language in Safed. It was amazing to check with my mother back home in Oregon to find that what was happening in Israel was not reported in her papers. Obviously, the reporters were only interested in anything that showed how bad Israel was instead of all the horrid things happening to her or mention the good things it was creating and sharing with the world. It was depressing to find that prejudice existed again after our revival of support in 1967.

                            There were so many indications that Obama would not be supportive of Israel if elected, but most Democratic Jews that I knew would not read or consider the findings and possibilities. Israel was outweighed in their decisions. I suppose they quickly thought that Israel could overcome any obstacle it met regardless of Obama's leanings. After all, look how many wars it had come through since 1948. Some even may have thought that Ha-Shem would protect. The outcome was that most Jews voted Democratically in the last election. Israel is having one heck of a time being pressured to lose Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria. It has already lost Gaza which it really didn't want in the first place but found it placed in their lap. The goal of the surrounding Arabs and especially the Palestinians is to get rid of Israel, and they are closer now than ever with Iran threatening Israel with an atomic missile. Most of the world is of course not assisting Israel. They really didn't want its creation in the first place, except the Evangelical Christians who are most supportive.

                            My sincere thoughts are this. Israel was created in my lifetime after 2,000 years of lying dormant. This is a time spoken of in the past. It's a revival period of our ancestor's home and our history. We are the ones that are responsible for its continuation. This heavy responsibility is ours now. We were the leaders of conscience being the mother religion with Christianity and Muslims as the children. What are we doing about its life?

                            Resource: Why Are Jews Liberals by Norman Podhoretz-opinion: Wall Street Journal
                            http://online. wsj.com/article/ SB10001424052970 2034401045744025 91116901498. html

                            Why Are Jews Liberals-A Symposium: Commentary Magazine- look for Jeff Jacoby's article-also David Wolpe, Jonathan D. Sarna, Michael Medved, William Kristol wrote articles there. http://www.commenta rymagazine. com/viewarticle. cfm/why-are- jews-liberals- a-symposium- 15223
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:47 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                             

                            Can we address the question of whether politics is genetics? And if so, to what extent and through what mechanisms?
                             
                             Politics is too small a word for the content of Lloyd's posting, in my opinion. Lloyd has made what seems to me a very rich expression of what is arguably the most important element of a human phenotype: his mind, or, if you will, his soul. If we're to limit our discussion of genetics to simple physical expressions such as red hair, why, we might as well be talking about breeding hamsters. Not very interesting.
                             
                            We are human beings. Our minds and our souls are what distinguish us from the beasts and fishes. The expression of genes in our minds and souls is surely the most profoundly interesting discussion in genetics, no?
                             
                            Lloyd's post was not polemic in nature. It is not meant to persuade or to promote. He simply came forward with a candid disclosure of his personal traits. I fully understand that many of us are full up-to-here with the nonstop bombardment of propaganda and hyperbole from every political direction. I know I am!  But that's not what Lloyd was up to. Lloyd was addressing the deep question:  "Who are we?".
                             
                            My intuition is that our little clan is special and interesting, in ways we don't yet understand very well. I'm staying tuned.
                             
                            Best,
                             
                            Paul Kotik
                            Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 8:55 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                             

                            Can we please get back to genetics! I don't need your politics.

                            Lloyd Friedman wrote:

                             

                            Sorry to tell you about the latest Gallup pole. Before, 84% of Jews approved of Obama. Now it has dropped 23%
                            The generation before us voted liberal no matter who was running. I am almost 67 and all my 6 siblings are conservative.
                            My 3 brothers and I believe and practice the 2nd amendment. Socialism helped Jews in the past, but no longer.
                            I worked for tips only, from the age of 12 till I got my working papers at 16. From that age I contributed maximum every year to every government mandatory tax.
                            I paid my dues and I am against any body getting the same benefits that did not pay their dues unless they are truly in need.
                            An obese person should not be on a food line. Leave that to the needy. My father went through the depression and never took a handout.
                            He had to quit high school to collect junk. Used a pushcart to sell fruits and vegetables. Raised 6 children working on the NY subways.
                            2 shifts. 1 as a conductor and 1 as a flagman on the tracts. Died at 64. We had 1 bathroom, an icebox until I was 12. No shower. Only 3 bedrooms
                            for 6 kids. Our parents made sure we all finished school and served in the military. My parents always voted Democratic. I am a libertarian.
                            1. Keep your thoughts out of my mind. Stop brainwashing our children. Even when I was in elementary school, we were taught communism from an instructor. PS184.
                            2. Keep your hands out of my wallet.
                            3. Keep your eyes out of my bedroom.
                            Support Israel in every way we can.
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 1:18 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                             

                            We may be very much on topic.
                             
                            Dave asked whether I thought Jews have special wiring.  The stealthy insinuation of Jonah Goldberg's book into the conversation raises at least two very on-topic questions:
                             
                                1) How closely is said Jonah Goldberg related to us?
                             
                                2) Why is it that the Jews in America are and have been so very lopsided in their voting behavior and, underlying that, political loyalties?  Is this evidence of some special wiring?
                             
                            It seems to me I read that in the recent Presidential elections, somewhere between 80% -90% of the Jewish vote went to one candidate, the eventual winner, as it happened. My understanding is that this Jewish voting preference, party- and ideology-wise, was consistent with past practice. So much so that it scarcely elicits comment.
                             
                            But it's extraordinary!  It's extraordinarily lopsided. I'm not very knowledgeable of American electoral politics, but I don't offhand know of any other so homogeneous ethnic voting block in America, except for some cases in which the block was near-unanimous in voting for one of its own.
                             
                            There are convincing arguments that the Jews in America tend to vote against their parochial interests - they tend upscale on the socioeconomic ladder, for instance, yet consistently vote for redistributive policies, parties and candidates. Is this an expression of some wired-in altruism? Something else?
                             
                            The political behavior of America's Jews seems to me to be rather paradoxical, in striking parallel with the (knowingly, as the author wearily reminds us from time to time) oxymoronic title  of Goldberg's book: "Liberal Fascism".  If I remember right, Benito Mussolini enjoyed the support of a large majority of Italy's Jews when he scored his first big electoral success in 1921. The historical record suggests that my own Kotik ancestors in Belarus had a strong preference for a tyrannical central government ( the Russian Empire) because they were expert in the art of acting as that central government's agents, thus earning its protection from the troublesome peasants. 
                             
                            Hmmm....have we been here before? Are we again executing a strategy for sojourning in foriegn nations which has failed so tragically and terribly in the past? And if so, is it because it's in our wiring?
                             
                            Paul Kotik
                            Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:45 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                             

                            We are indeed getting off topic, but I find it fascinating. I much enjoy getting to know my brothers this way.
                             
                            And to Rebekah Canada, who serves as a voice of cool enlightenment, I thank her again for all her contributions- -and her tolerance.  
                             
                            If we were to use this forum only for learning about our origins, we would have only two or three messages a week, and they would be mostly speculation.
                             
                             
                            Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
                             
                             
                             
                            In a message dated 10/6/2009 9:26:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jshappee@juno. com writes:
                             

                            I believe we are getting considerably off topic.

                            --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "adam_bratter" <adam_bratter@ ...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dave
                            >
                            > Here is a nice book for you to read!
                            > http://www.amazon. com/Liberal- Fascism-American -Mussolini- Politics/ dp/0385511841
                            >
                            > Let me know if you have still think Liberal Fascism is an oxymoron after a good read by Mr. Goldberg.
                            >

                            .

                            0.0.010609.28378R: 005fb474 E:3213.1379089173 V:10e7.138a. 1.16.1.1. US S:Sprnstn84


                            --
                            Robert Mark, Ph.D.               rmark@infomagic. net
                            Rupestrian CyberServices    Phone/FAX 928-526-3625
                            3644 N. Stone Crest St.        http://www.rupestri an.com/
                            Flagstaff, AZ 86004-6811
                            USA

                            RCS: Computer science in the service of rock art research, protection, and education.

                          • NADENE GOLDFOOT
                            Thanks,Paul. There s a lot of truth in what you say. We have people in our midst who think of the whole group first (communism) or think of themselves first
                            Message 13 of 16 , Oct 7, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thanks,Paul. 
                              There's a lot of truth in what you say.  We have people in our midst who think of the whole group first (communism) or think of themselves first (what's his name who is in jail now for bilking so many people of their money).  Does this mean we all have the ability to go either way but that we inherit genes that pull us in one direction that are the strongest of the choices?  Environment has to play a major part of our decision-making, too.  That's where our religion comes into the picture.  What have we learned about making our choices?  Who took to the lessons?  One thing that distinguishes us from the others is our stiff-necks, according to the Tanakh.  We have inherited a stubborness, a stick-to-it-ness.  Look how long Judaism has lasted when other groups fell by the wayside.  Look how many bottlenecks we have gone through. 
                              Your writing reminds me of the state of affairs right now in our USA.  I cheered when I saw we had a few Jewish men under Obama, and that was a short lived cheer.  It's not helping at all.  Your theory is right. 
                              Genetically speaking, my distant cousin, a Q1b, Stanley Goldfoot, was the chief of Intelligence for the Stern Group "gang" to some in Israel before it became Israel.  His family came from Lithuania to England, then to Ireland, then to South Africa where he went to Yeshiva and at 18 yrs sailed to Palestine only to be met by Begin, etc, who talked him into joining their radical group.  Being a Q1b, genious that he was, he quickly became a leader of the group.  He was a journalist who even lived in NY and started his own magazine about Israel.  He has written his famous "Letter to the World" that puts shivers up and down my back every time I read it.  I had his cousin tested recently and that's how I know we are distant cousins, 3 out of 67 alleles do not match, making us connected maybe 300 yrs ago or so, probably back in Lithuania at some period.  No paper trail, just dna.  Anyway, Stanley is famous in Israeli history, or infamous, as the case may be.  He was a radical.  I think he had reason to be.  I met with him, spoke with him, and was most impressed by him; a speaker for Israel who had engagements in football fields,  tall, handsome, slender with the strongest British accent that made me feel embarressed to even speak and he looked somewhat like David Niven.  All I could think of was: Oy, I'm glad my father, Meshke, Q1b - who murders the English language and is short doesn't have to be the one who meets up with his cousin Stanley.  What a difference!
                              Nadene Goldfoot
                              Gresham, Oregon
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 7:40 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                               

                              You're a wonderful writer, Nadene. Thank you.
                               
                              How about this proto-theory:
                               
                              I had occasion to read an autobiographical work by a Kotik who was born in the mid-19th Century in what is now Belarus, now apparently available in English.
                               
                              The modus vivendi, the adaptive strategy his Kotik clan had adopted ( apparently centuries earlier) was to serve the Russian Czar, that is, the central government of the Russian Empire, as local agents. The head of the family, one Aharon-Layser Kotik, was kind of like a Don Corleone in true partnership with government. He did things like manage the district's selection of boys for the Czar's military draft - the term of service was then 25 years, and the presumption was that a boy conscripted into the Imperial army would never be seen again. The Kotiks enjoyed a state-enforced monopoly in the district on the production and distribution of alcoholic beverages.  Later in the 19th Century, they grew a business of serving more local Big Men, namely, the Polish aristocrat landowners, as managers, accountants, and administrators.  The aristocrats were mostly illiterate and mostly interested in drinking, gambling and hunting.
                               
                              The Empire, distally, and the aristocrats, proximally, provided these Jews with financial reward and with protection from the peasantry, who outnumbered them by a very large multiple.  
                               
                              The general form of this strategy is for Jews to exploit their apparently intrinsic cognitive advantages by serving the center of power as symbol manipulators: lawyers, accountants, bureaucrats, interpreters, doctors, advocates, and so on.
                               
                              I think the case can be made that this is the origin of the adapative strategy we've seen in the Jews in America: vote for and encourage the growth of state power while securing position and prospering by serving at the control panel of the increasingly massive and powerful state. 
                               
                              So far, it has worked pretty well, in a sense.
                               
                              However, it has in the past almost always ( I say "almost", but can't think of any exceptions myself) ended in disaster.  Tyranny seems to be a self-liquidating phenom. At any rate, none of 'em last, and when things go bad the angry peasants always come looking for the people at the control panel.
                               
                              Am I wrong? Has there been some place in space and time wherewhen the Jews did not screw it up and suffer expulsion, genocide, enslavement, or the like?  Yes, I do say it's been our fault. The Muslims are fond of blaming the rest of the world for all that's gone wrong in theirs. We say : "If I am not for me, who is for me ?" (Eem ain ani li, mi li ?). 
                               
                              So - are we doing it again in America?  Let's suppose this current experiment in revolution-by- ballot ends as disasterously as have so many like it in the past. What, then, will be the position of the Jews in America?
                               
                              The historic pattern seems so clear, one cannot but wonder whether there's a genetic element. Maybe it's as simple as a set of cognitive traits that express in functional advantages which channel adaptation in certain ways. Maybe less, maybe more.
                               
                               
                              Best,
                               
                               
                              Paul Kotik
                              Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 10:08 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                               

                              Paul and Lloyd, I can't help but jump into this one with a reply that I have posted on my blog.  So if you don't mind a female cousin's opinion, here it is: one thing we all have in common genetically  s the interest in writing.  I know, it's politics below, so sorry.  But I've read that there may even be a gene that shapes our choices, too, or interest in.  Genetically speaking, I'm following a distant cousin, Stanley Goldfoot, in his political choices pretty much.  Oh well, here goes....... 

                              Sunday, September 13, 2009

                              Why Did American Jews Risk Israel in Their Voting? Nadene's Opinion

                              There have been more than two very interesting articles about why Jews are Democrats. They both give the history of why most Jews voted Democratically. Since World War II when President Roosevelt was in power, we have been grateful to find America a haven from the killing fields in Europe that took the lives of six million Jews. Thank goodness we were here.

                              We've been very loyal to Roosevelt's party. Now we've had 65 years of living peacefully in the United States, which is quite a stretch for us Jews. We've come from being kept out of organizations because of our religion to being accepted. We were kept out of jobs and schools and now find ourselves just one of the guys. Life has become good. That's almost three generations from Europe and pogroms and the holocaust. Our present generation knows very little about our past unless the parents were directly involved with past events. Our school systems do not dwell on this part of history, so our children just have not become impacted by it. How many attend Sunday School and even listen to the history portion in class? Being a past teacher and Sunday School teacher in Oregon, I know that very little has reached our young citizens.

                              I was on the Democratic Party's inner circle in Eastern Oregon, and even had a a party after an election before 1980 when our man won. I graciously invited my mother to the party even though she was a rebel and had voted Republican. I never considered ever voting Republican. She said she was more interested in what they stood for and not the party. She really investigated them. Her vote cancelled out my father's vote, but they learned to live with it.

                              When it came to voting again in this election, I found Democrats to be so engrossed in the identification of being a Democrat that they did not consider Israel's life at all. They were appalled at being questioned about it. The fact that the Bush Era had been such a mess determined their judgements. Anything to get away from the Republicans was their thinking in my opinion. Their thoughts were the same as most Americans. Stop the war. Save the soldiers. Obama was such an artful speaker. Who could argue against him? The world loved him. He was good for America and would be the first black president. Voters were more interested in saving the planet and going green than rescuing Israel.

                              I am an American with dual citizenship with Israel. I lived there for over five years teaching English as a Foreign Language in Safed. It was amazing to check with my mother back home in Oregon to find that what was happening in Israel was not reported in her papers. Obviously, the reporters were only interested in anything that showed how bad Israel was instead of all the horrid things happening to her or mention the good things it was creating and sharing with the world. It was depressing to find that prejudice existed again after our revival of support in 1967.

                              There were so many indications that Obama would not be supportive of Israel if elected, but most Democratic Jews that I knew would not read or consider the findings and possibilities. Israel was outweighed in their decisions. I suppose they quickly thought that Israel could overcome any obstacle it met regardless of Obama's leanings. After all, look how many wars it had come through since 1948. Some even may have thought that Ha-Shem would protect. The outcome was that most Jews voted Democratically in the last election. Israel is having one heck of a time being pressured to lose Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria. It has already lost Gaza which it really didn't want in the first place but found it placed in their lap. The goal of the surrounding Arabs and especially the Palestinians is to get rid of Israel, and they are closer now than ever with Iran threatening Israel with an atomic missile. Most of the world is of course not assisting Israel. They really didn't want its creation in the first place, except the Evangelical Christians who are most supportive.

                              My sincere thoughts are this. Israel was created in my lifetime after 2,000 years of lying dormant. This is a time spoken of in the past. It's a revival period of our ancestor's home and our history. We are the ones that are responsible for its continuation. This heavy responsibility is ours now. We were the leaders of conscience being the mother religion with Christianity and Muslims as the children. What are we doing about its life?

                              Resource: Why Are Jews Liberals by Norman Podhoretz-opinion: Wall Street Journal
                              http://online. wsj.com/article/ SB10001424052970 2034401045744025 91116901498. html

                              Why Are Jews Liberals-A Symposium: Commentary Magazine- look for Jeff Jacoby's article-also David Wolpe, Jonathan D. Sarna, Michael Medved, William Kristol wrote articles there. http://www.commenta rymagazine. com/viewarticle. cfm/why-are- jews-liberals- a-symposium- 15223
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 6:47 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                               

                              Can we address the question of whether politics is genetics? And if so, to what extent and through what mechanisms?
                               
                               Politics is too small a word for the content of Lloyd's posting, in my opinion. Lloyd has made what seems to me a very rich expression of what is arguably the most important element of a human phenotype: his mind, or, if you will, his soul. If we're to limit our discussion of genetics to simple physical expressions such as red hair, why, we might as well be talking about breeding hamsters. Not very interesting.
                               
                              We are human beings. Our minds and our souls are what distinguish us from the beasts and fishes. The expression of genes in our minds and souls is surely the most profoundly interesting discussion in genetics, no?
                               
                              Lloyd's post was not polemic in nature. It is not meant to persuade or to promote. He simply came forward with a candid disclosure of his personal traits. I fully understand that many of us are full up-to-here with the nonstop bombardment of propaganda and hyperbole from every political direction. I know I am!  But that's not what Lloyd was up to. Lloyd was addressing the deep question:  "Who are we?".
                               
                              My intuition is that our little clan is special and interesting, in ways we don't yet understand very well. I'm staying tuned.
                               
                              Best,
                               
                              Paul Kotik
                              Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 8:55 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                               

                              Can we please get back to genetics! I don't need your politics.

                              Lloyd Friedman wrote:

                               

                              Sorry to tell you about the latest Gallup pole. Before, 84% of Jews approved of Obama. Now it has dropped 23%
                              The generation before us voted liberal no matter who was running. I am almost 67 and all my 6 siblings are conservative.
                              My 3 brothers and I believe and practice the 2nd amendment. Socialism helped Jews in the past, but no longer.
                              I worked for tips only, from the age of 12 till I got my working papers at 16. From that age I contributed maximum every year to every government mandatory tax.
                              I paid my dues and I am against any body getting the same benefits that did not pay their dues unless they are truly in need.
                              An obese person should not be on a food line. Leave that to the needy. My father went through the depression and never took a handout.
                              He had to quit high school to collect junk. Used a pushcart to sell fruits and vegetables. Raised 6 children working on the NY subways.
                              2 shifts. 1 as a conductor and 1 as a flagman on the tracts. Died at 64. We had 1 bathroom, an icebox until I was 12. No shower. Only 3 bedrooms
                              for 6 kids. Our parents made sure we all finished school and served in the military. My parents always voted Democratic. I am a libertarian.
                              1. Keep your thoughts out of my mind. Stop brainwashing our children. Even when I was in elementary school, we were taught communism from an instructor. PS184.
                              2. Keep your hands out of my wallet.
                              3. Keep your eyes out of my bedroom.
                              Support Israel in every way we can.
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 1:18 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                               

                              We may be very much on topic.
                               
                              Dave asked whether I thought Jews have special wiring.  The stealthy insinuation of Jonah Goldberg's book into the conversation raises at least two very on-topic questions:
                               
                                  1) How closely is said Jonah Goldberg related to us?
                               
                                  2) Why is it that the Jews in America are and have been so very lopsided in their voting behavior and, underlying that, political loyalties?  Is this evidence of some special wiring?
                               
                              It seems to me I read that in the recent Presidential elections, somewhere between 80% -90% of the Jewish vote went to one candidate, the eventual winner, as it happened. My understanding is that this Jewish voting preference, party- and ideology-wise, was consistent with past practice. So much so that it scarcely elicits comment.
                               
                              But it's extraordinary!  It's extraordinarily lopsided. I'm not very knowledgeable of American electoral politics, but I don't offhand know of any other so homogeneous ethnic voting block in America, except for some cases in which the block was near-unanimous in voting for one of its own.
                               
                              There are convincing arguments that the Jews in America tend to vote against their parochial interests - they tend upscale on the socioeconomic ladder, for instance, yet consistently vote for redistributive policies, parties and candidates. Is this an expression of some wired-in altruism? Something else?
                               
                              The political behavior of America's Jews seems to me to be rather paradoxical, in striking parallel with the (knowingly, as the author wearily reminds us from time to time) oxymoronic title  of Goldberg's book: "Liberal Fascism".  If I remember right, Benito Mussolini enjoyed the support of a large majority of Italy's Jews when he scored his first big electoral success in 1921. The historical record suggests that my own Kotik ancestors in Belarus had a strong preference for a tyrannical central government ( the Russian Empire) because they were expert in the art of acting as that central government's agents, thus earning its protection from the troublesome peasants. 
                               
                              Hmmm....have we been here before? Are we again executing a strategy for sojourning in foriegn nations which has failed so tragically and terribly in the past? And if so, is it because it's in our wiring?
                               
                              Paul Kotik
                              Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:45 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                               

                              We are indeed getting off topic, but I find it fascinating. I much enjoy getting to know my brothers this way.
                               
                              And to Rebekah Canada, who serves as a voice of cool enlightenment, I thank her again for all her contributions- -and her tolerance.  
                               
                              If we were to use this forum only for learning about our origins, we would have only two or three messages a week, and they would be mostly speculation.
                               
                               
                              Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
                               
                               
                               
                              In a message dated 10/6/2009 9:26:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jshappee@juno. com writes:
                               

                              I believe we are getting considerably off topic.

                              --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "adam_bratter" <adam_bratter@ ...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dave
                              >
                              > Here is a nice book for you to read!
                              > http://www.amazon. com/Liberal- Fascism-American -Mussolini- Politics/ dp/0385511841
                              >
                              > Let me know if you have still think Liberal Fascism is an oxymoron after a good read by Mr. Goldberg.
                              >

                              .

                              0.0.010609.28378R: 005fb474 E:3213.1379089173 V:10e7.138a. 1.16.1.1. US S:Sprnstn84


                              --
                              Robert Mark, Ph.D.               rmark@infomagic. net
                              Rupestrian CyberServices    Phone/FAX 928-526-3625
                              3644 N. Stone Crest St.        http://www.rupestri an.com/
                              Flagstaff, AZ 86004-6811
                              USA

                              RCS: Computer science in the service of rock art research, protection, and education.

                            • NADENE GOLDFOOT
                              B. Jeffrey Joseph, I didn t vote for him, either. I m entirely engrossed in news about Israel being I hold dual citizenship with Israel/USA and am on the
                              Message 14 of 16 , Oct 7, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                B. Jeffrey Joseph,
                                I didn't vote for him, either.  I'm entirely engrossed in news about Israel being I hold dual citizenship with Israel/USA and am on the Israel Advocacy committee through the Jewish Federation, but my brother did vote for him.  That wiring you speak of comes up randomly as one of our genes.  At the time of the election, you and I were one of the few holdouts.  Now some Jews are having 2nd thoughts.  I used to be a very naive lady, but time has changed me.  I think that's the gene-the one for naivete. 
                                Nadene Goldfoot
                                Gresham, Oregon
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 11:12 PM
                                Subject: RE: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                                 

                                All of the below may have some truth - but I'll go on record of one Q1b that did not vote for Obama and at this point can't understand how anyone would openly admit that they did... so my "wiring" may be different than the norm if I'm understanding the below correctly.

                                Regardless, I am enjoying reading the banter between my cousins...




                                From: Paul Kotik <paul.kotik@gmail. com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 1:18 AM
                                To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
                                Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                                 

                                We may be very much on topic.
                                 
                                Dave asked whether I thought Jews have special wiring.  The stealthy insinuation of Jonah Goldberg's book into the conversation raises at least two very on-topic questions:
                                 
                                    1) How closely is said Jonah Goldberg related to us?
                                 
                                    2) Why is it that the Jews in America are and have been so very lopsided in their voting behavior and, underlying that, political loyalties?  Is this evidence of some special wiring?
                                 
                                It seems to me I read that in the recent Presidential elections, somewhere between 80% -90% of the Jewish vote went to one candidate, the eventual winner, as it happened. My understanding is that this Jewish voting preference, party- and ideology-wise, was consistent with past practice. So much so that it scarcely elicits comment.
                                 
                                But it's extraordinary!  It's extraordinarily lopsided. I'm not very knowledgeable of American electoral politics, but I don't offhand know of any other so homogeneous ethnic voting block in America, except for some cases in which the block was near-unanimous in voting for one of its own.
                                 
                                There are convincing arguments that the Jews in America tend to vote against their parochial interests - they tend upscale on the socioeconomic ladder, for instance, yet consistently vote for redistributive policies, parties and candidates. Is this an expression of some wired-in altruism? Something else?
                                 
                                The political behavior of America's Jews seems to me to be rather paradoxical, in striking parallel with the (knowingly, as the author wearily reminds us from time to time) oxymoronic title  of Goldberg's book: "Liberal Fascism".  If I remember right, Benito Mussolini enjoyed the support of a large majority of Italy's Jews when he scored his first big electoral success in 1921. The historical record suggests that my own Kotik ancestors in Belarus had a strong preference for a tyrannical central government ( the Russian Empire) because they were expert in the art of acting as that central government's agents, thus earning its protection from the troublesome peasants. 
                                 
                                Hmmm....have we been here before? Are we again executing a strategy for sojourning in foriegn nations which has failed so tragically and terribly in the past? And if so, is it because it's in our wiring?
                                 
                                Paul Kotik
                                Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:45 AM
                                Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                                 

                                We are indeed getting off topic, but I find it fascinating. I much enjoy getting to know my brothers this way.
                                 
                                And to Rebekah Canada, who serves as a voice of cool enlightenment, I thank her again for all her contributions- -and her tolerance.  
                                 
                                If we were to use this forum only for learning about our origins, we would have only two or three messages a week, and they would be mostly speculation.
                                 
                                 
                                Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                In a message dated 10/6/2009 9:26:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jshappee@juno. com writes:
                                 

                                I believe we are getting considerably off topic.

                                --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "adam_bratter" <adam_bratter@ ...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dave
                                >
                                > Here is a nice book for you to read!
                                > http://www.amazon. com/Liberal- Fascism-American -Mussolini- Politics/ dp/0385511841
                                >
                                > Let me know if you have still think Liberal Fascism is an oxymoron after a good read by Mr. Goldberg.
                                >

                                .

                                0.0.010609.28378R: 005fb474 E:3213.1379089173 V:10e7.138a. 1.16.1.1. US S:Sprnstn84

                              • NADENE GOLDFOOT
                                Here s something about dna that might be appra-po to our group.
                                Message 15 of 16 , Oct 7, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  This is a play about dna discoveries in people and how they react to their news that will be in Chicago next year 2010.  I'd love to see it.  I think the group was tested through familytreedna.
                                  Nadene 
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 10:18 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                                   

                                  We may be very much on topic.
                                   
                                  Dave asked whether I thought Jews have special wiring.  The stealthy insinuation of Jonah Goldberg's book into the conversation raises at least two very on-topic questions:
                                   
                                      1) How closely is said Jonah Goldberg related to us?
                                   
                                      2) Why is it that the Jews in America are and have been so very lopsided in their voting behavior and, underlying that, political loyalties?  Is this evidence of some special wiring?
                                   
                                  It seems to me I read that in the recent Presidential elections, somewhere between 80% -90% of the Jewish vote went to one candidate, the eventual winner, as it happened. My understanding is that this Jewish voting preference, party- and ideology-wise, was consistent with past practice. So much so that it scarcely elicits comment.
                                   
                                  But it's extraordinary!  It's extraordinarily lopsided. I'm not very knowledgeable of American electoral politics, but I don't offhand know of any other so homogeneous ethnic voting block in America, except for some cases in which the block was near-unanimous in voting for one of its own.
                                   
                                  There are convincing arguments that the Jews in America tend to vote against their parochial interests - they tend upscale on the socioeconomic ladder, for instance, yet consistently vote for redistributive policies, parties and candidates. Is this an expression of some wired-in altruism? Something else?
                                   
                                  The political behavior of America's Jews seems to me to be rather paradoxical, in striking parallel with the (knowingly, as the author wearily reminds us from time to time) oxymoronic title  of Goldberg's book: "Liberal Fascism".  If I remember right, Benito Mussolini enjoyed the support of a large majority of Italy's Jews when he scored his first big electoral success in 1921. The historical record suggests that my own Kotik ancestors in Belarus had a strong preference for a tyrannical central government ( the Russian Empire) because they were expert in the art of acting as that central government's agents, thus earning its protection from the troublesome peasants. 
                                   
                                  Hmmm....have we been here before? Are we again executing a strategy for sojourning in foriegn nations which has failed so tragically and terribly in the past? And if so, is it because it's in our wiring?
                                   
                                  Paul Kotik
                                  Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:45 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you

                                   

                                  We are indeed getting off topic, but I find it fascinating. I much enjoy getting to know my brothers this way.
                                   
                                  And to Rebekah Canada, who serves as a voice of cool enlightenment, I thank her again for all her contributions- -and her tolerance.  
                                   
                                  If we were to use this forum only for learning about our origins, we would have only two or three messages a week, and they would be mostly speculation.
                                   
                                   
                                  Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  In a message dated 10/6/2009 9:26:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jshappee@juno. com writes:
                                   

                                  I believe we are getting considerably off topic.

                                  --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "adam_bratter" <adam_bratter@ ...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dave
                                  >
                                  > Here is a nice book for you to read!
                                  > http://www.amazon. com/Liberal- Fascism-American -Mussolini- Politics/ dp/0385511841
                                  >
                                  > Let me know if you have still think Liberal Fascism is an oxymoron after a good read by Mr. Goldberg.
                                  >

                                  .

                                  0.0.010609.28378R: 005fb474 E:3213.1379089173 V:10e7.138a. 1.16.1.1. US S:Sprnstn84

                                • adam_bratter
                                  LOL I completely agree with you Paul, and have had very similiar thoughts. If you come to any potential answers, let me know. Just remember, anytime the Jew
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Oct 7, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    LOL
                                    I completely agree with you Paul, and have had very similiar thoughts. If you come to any potential answers, let me know.
                                    Just remember, anytime the Jew gets involved in politics, who gets blamed....yes, the Jews!


                                    --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Kotik" <paul.kotik@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > We may be very much on topic.
                                    >
                                    > Dave asked whether I thought Jews have special wiring. The stealthy insinuation of Jonah Goldberg's book into the conversation raises at least two very on-topic questions:
                                    >
                                    > 1) How closely is said Jonah Goldberg related to us?
                                    >
                                    > 2) Why is it that the Jews in America are and have been so very lopsided in their voting behavior and, underlying that, political loyalties? Is this evidence of some special wiring?
                                    >
                                    > It seems to me I read that in the recent Presidential elections, somewhere between 80% -90% of the Jewish vote went to one candidate, the eventual winner, as it happened. My understanding is that this Jewish voting preference, party- and ideology-wise, was consistent with past practice. So much so that it scarcely elicits comment.
                                    >
                                    > But it's extraordinary! It's extraordinarily lopsided. I'm not very knowledgeable of American electoral politics, but I don't offhand know of any other so homogeneous ethnic voting block in America, except for some cases in which the block was near-unanimous in voting for one of its own.
                                    >
                                    > There are convincing arguments that the Jews in America tend to vote against their parochial interests - they tend upscale on the socioeconomic ladder, for instance, yet consistently vote for redistributive policies, parties and candidates. Is this an expression of some wired-in altruism? Something else?
                                    >
                                    > The political behavior of America's Jews seems to me to be rather paradoxical, in striking parallel with the (knowingly, as the author wearily reminds us from time to time) oxymoronic title of Goldberg's book: "Liberal Fascism". If I remember right, Benito Mussolini enjoyed the support of a large majority of Italy's Jews when he scored his first big electoral success in 1921. The historical record suggests that my own Kotik ancestors in Belarus had a strong preference for a tyrannical central government ( the Russian Empire) because they were expert in the art of acting as that central government's agents, thus earning its protection from the troublesome peasants.
                                    >
                                    > Hmmm....have we been here before? Are we again executing a strategy for sojourning in foriegn nations which has failed so tragically and terribly in the past? And if so, is it because it's in our wiring?
                                    >
                                    > Paul Kotik
                                    > Ft. Lauderdale, FL USA
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Barryzwick@...
                                    > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 12:45 AM
                                    > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Dave - a nice book for you
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > We are indeed getting off topic, but I find it fascinating. I much enjoy getting to know my brothers this way.
                                    >
                                    > And to Rebekah Canada, who serves as a voice of cool enlightenment, I thank her again for all her contributions--and her tolerance.
                                    >
                                    > If we were to use this forum only for learning about our origins, we would have only two or three messages a week, and they would be mostly speculation.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > In a message dated 10/6/2009 9:26:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jshappee@... writes:
                                    >
                                    > I believe we are getting considerably off topic.
                                    >
                                    > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "adam_bratter" <adam_bratter@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Dave
                                    > >
                                    > > Here is a nice book for you to read!
                                    > > http://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Politics/dp/0385511841
                                    > >
                                    > > Let me know if you have still think Liberal Fascism is an oxymoron after a good read by Mr. Goldberg.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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