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RE: [Ashkenazi-Q] Khazars

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  • Jeff Joseph
    Hey Adam - I don t know I m of Khazar descent or not, but I am Ashkenazi Jew. I am definitely Q1b - M378 according to my yDNA tests (# 158843). Just for the
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 3, 2009
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    Hey Adam - I don't know I'm of Khazar descent or not, but I am Ashkenazi Jew. I am definitely Q1b - M378 according to my yDNA tests (# 158843).

     

    Just for the record, attached is a recent pic of me - so you'll know that not everyone in this group is dark haired with brown eyes.

     

    As far as the "barbarians" - I think you can find that trait in just about any Haplogroup - some more than others maybe, but they are there nonetheless.

     

    Best Regards Cousin -

     

    Jeff Joseph

     

     

     

     

    From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of NADENE GOLDFOOT
    Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 9:35 PM
    To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Khazars

     

     

    Adam,

    Kevin Alan Brook said  that The large Khazar  empire in southern Russia was during the early medieval period and the 3rd force in Europe and Asia on par with the Byzantine Empire and the Islamic Caliphate.  They were excellent traders, farmers, fishermen, warriors and craftsmen.  It was a major center for world trade and contributed to economic prosperity in the region.   This is from an authority on the Khazars who wrote "The Jews of Khazaria" 2nd edition.  Does this empire sound like it was made up of barbarians?  

    I agree with the others.  Forget the German sources.  They're full of anti semitic rubbish. 

    "The Khazars were described by ibn-Said al-Maghribi as having blue eyes, light skin, and reddish hair.  Many other early Turkic tribes also had red hair.  Chinese and Muslim sources indicated that the ancient Qirghiz (Kyrgyz) people living north of the Sayan Mountains along the upper Yenisei River had red hair, blue eyes, and white skin."....page 3

    King David was supposed to be a "gingi "-having red hair. 

    On the other hand, al-Istakhri said that Khazars had black hair.  He added that there were "Black Khazars" and "White Khazars," alleging that the latter were light skinned and handsome while the former were dark skinned.  Scholars agree that this really was a social distinction.  The Black (Kara) Khazars were the lower classes, while the white (Ak) Khazars were the nobility and royalty. --page 3.

    Get his book.  It's most interesting. 

    Nadene Goldfoot

     

     

     

    ----- Original Message -----

    Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 10:06 PM

    Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Khazars

     

     

    I've been reading on the Khazars, if that is my ancestry, then I come from barbarians!!!

    http://www.britam.org/KhazarChapters.html
    Lost Ten Tribes equated with the "Red Jews" and with "Gog and Magog". Red hair considered a characteristic of Jews and of the "Red Jews". German tradition considered Ten Tribes a potential menace but the English viewed them favorably. "Red Jews" identified with the Khazars. Many Ancient Israelites had had red hair as do many Jews today as well as a significant proportion of Scots and Irish and many others in the west

    Again with the biblical ref to gog and magog
    http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/library/khazars.html

    So I looked up what gog and magog are
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog

    The google links go on and on.
    Some of the more anti-semetic and right wing christian articles state all Ashkenazi Jews are from Khazars - but if only 5% have the Q Haplogroup, then this is incorrect.

    Who would think a tax accountant like me .....with Barbarian ancestors who have been stipulated as Gog and Magog!

  • BJMVA
    FYI All morning long, the military history channel has been running stories beginning with the vikings, goths, etc and now they are up to Genghis Khan. The
    Message 2 of 15 , Oct 4, 2009
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      FYI
       
      All morning long, the military history channel has been running stories beginning with the vikings, goths, etc and now they are up to Genghis Khan.  The programs are running under the title of the "Barbarians."  The stories have covered the entire lines as they progressed from 1000BC.  It has been mentioned that as far back 1000BC the vikings may have made it to what is now Nova Scotia.  It has covered their presence in Rome, China, Mongolia, and the silk road trade.  You might want to try to catch the reruns....
       
      BJ Marlow
       
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 10:34 PM
      Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Khazars

      Adam,
      Kevin Alan Brook said  that The large Khazar  empire in southern Russia was during the early medieval period and the 3rd force in Europe and Asia on par with the Byzantine Empire and the Islamic Caliphate.  They were excellent traders, farmers, fishermen, warriors and craftsmen.  It was a major center for world trade and contributed to economic prosperity in the region.   This is from an authority on the Khazars who wrote "The Jews of Khazaria" 2nd edition.  Does this empire sound like it was made up of barbarians?  
      I agree with the others.  Forget the German sources.  They're full of anti semitic rubbish. 
      "The Khazars were described by ibn-Said al-Maghribi as having blue eyes, light skin, and reddish hair.  Many other early Turkic tribes also had red hair.  Chinese and Muslim sources indicated that the ancient Qirghiz (Kyrgyz) people living north of the Sayan Mountains along the upper Yenisei River had red hair, blue eyes, and white skin."....page 3
      King David was supposed to be a "gingi "-having red hair. 
      On the other hand, al-Istakhri said that Khazars had black hair.  He added that there were "Black Khazars" and "White Khazars," alleging that the latter were light skinned and handsome while the former were dark skinned.  Scholars agree that this really was a social distinction.  The Black (Kara) Khazars were the lower classes, while the white (Ak) Khazars were the nobility and royalty. --page 3.
      Get his book.  It's most interesting. 
      Nadene Goldfoot
       
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 10:06 PM
      Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Khazars

       

      I've been reading on the Khazars, if that is my ancestry, then I come from barbarians!! !

      http://www.britam. org/KhazarChapte rs.html
      Lost Ten Tribes equated with the "Red Jews" and with "Gog and Magog". Red hair considered a characteristic of Jews and of the "Red Jews". German tradition considered Ten Tribes a potential menace but the English viewed them favorably. "Red Jews" identified with the Khazars. Many Ancient Israelites had had red hair as do many Jews today as well as a significant proportion of Scots and Irish and many others in the west

      Again with the biblical ref to gog and magog
      http://www.apfn. org/THEWINDS/ library/khazars. html

      So I looked up what gog and magog are
      http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Gog_and_Magog

      The google links go on and on.
      Some of the more anti-semetic and right wing christian articles state all Ashkenazi Jews are from Khazars - but if only 5% have the Q Haplogroup, then this is incorrect.

      Who would think a tax accountant like me .....with Barbarian ancestors who have been stipulated as Gog and Magog!

    • NADENE GOLDFOOT
      David, What the Khazars had only accounts for a few of our genes now. That was a long time ago and we ve added tons of genes for eye, skin and hair color. It
      Message 3 of 15 , Oct 4, 2009
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        David,
        What the Khazars had only accounts for a few of our genes now.  That was a long time ago and we've added tons of genes for eye, skin and hair color.  It only means that there might be a slight chance of that gene showing up in your makeup.  My daughter has red hair and blue-green eyes and freckles, but I always figured that she got it from her father's side and my mother's father's side plus the rumor that my father's father had red in his beard (the Q1b person).  With all those genes, it's no wonder she turned out so lovely.  Now I find out that my mother's mother's relative is a red-head.  Red hair is found all over the world, Jewish and non-Jewish. 
        Nadene Goldfoot
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:51 PM
        Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Khazars

         

        On Oct 3, 2009, at 10:34 PM, NADENE GOLDFOOT wrote:

        The Khazars were described by ibn-Said al-Maghribi as having blue eyes, light skin, and reddish hair.

        Before most of my hair turned white it was reddish-brown. I'm Q1b, light freckly insta-burn skin and light brown eyes. All four grandparents had blue/green eyes, but my dad had very dark eyes for whatever reason. My shikse mom of unknown provenance (Scots-Irish- French as far as we know) has hazel eyes.

      • Dave
        Nadene, Consider this. For hundreds of years there was little intermarriage among Ashkenazi Jewish people and their gentile neighbors. This is documented in
        Message 4 of 15 , Oct 6, 2009
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          Nadene,

          Consider this. For hundreds of years there was little intermarriage among Ashkenazi Jewish people and their gentile neighbors. This is documented in some of the research papers posted on this site.

          Furthermore, about 50% of all Ashkenazi Jewish people go back to about 5 founding mothers based on the mtDNA studies.

          Apparently, there was one major conversion and integration of a gentile group into the Ashkenazi group. Those were the Khazars.

          Khazars were Caucasion. Take a look on the map. They lived almost right in the Caucasus Mountains. Caucasians are stock, red headed, freckled and light eyed.

          I agree with Professor Krupa that it appears many of us do carry Khazarian DNA. I do not yet agree that they were the source of our yDNA.

          Note that I made no reference to either your mother or mine. Wink, Wink.

          Dave

          --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@...> wrote:
          >
          > David,
          > What the Khazars had only accounts for a few of our genes now. That was a long time ago and we've added tons of genes for eye, skin and hair color. It only means that there might be a slight chance of that gene showing up in your makeup. My daughter has red hair and blue-green eyes and freckles, but I always figured that she got it from her father's side and my mother's father's side plus the rumor that my father's father had red in his beard (the Q1b person). With all those genes, it's no wonder she turned out so lovely. Now I find out that my mother's mother's relative is a red-head. Red hair is found all over the world, Jewish and non-Jewish.
          > Nadene Goldfoot
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: David Broudy
          > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:51 PM
          > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Khazars
          >
          >
          >
          > On Oct 3, 2009, at 10:34 PM, NADENE GOLDFOOT wrote:
          >
          >
          > The Khazars were described by ibn-Said al-Maghribi as having blue eyes, light skin, and reddish hair.
          >
          >
          > Before most of my hair turned white it was reddish-brown. I'm Q1b, light freckly insta-burn skin and light brown eyes. All four grandparents had blue/green eyes, but my dad had very dark eyes for whatever reason. My shikse mom of unknown provenance (Scots-Irish-French as far as we know) has hazel eyes.
          >
        • NADENE GOLDFOOT
          Dave, You do make sense. My question would then be, do we have any idea of where our Ydna came from considering the source today was Jewish? The fact that it
          Message 5 of 15 , Oct 6, 2009
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            Dave,
            You do make sense.  My question would then be, do we have any idea of where our Ydna came from considering the source today was Jewish?  The fact that it seems to differ from the Israelite Jews  means that we are a little different.  The fact that it is a Q and a branch of the Q haplogroup puts us back into the area of Mongolia, Siberia and parts of Turkey.  What group is on record to have had that happen that part of the people or one of the people or whatever could have spawned Jewish people?  And complicate that with the fact that most of these Q1bs had moved into "Russia" at some point in time?  
             
            Our ancestor only goes back 1,000 years.  The Khazarian Empire was at the height of power or created around 860ad, after the Muslim religion was born.

            1. Bulan, (864-870) p. 96. last "Quasi-divine" Shaman Emperor and first Jewish Khazar King , wanted Baharli killed as child outside marriage. Last half of 9th Century.Khazars officially converted to Judaism after 2 centuries of shamanist and Muslim rulers.

            This means that our original ancestor was not Jewish to start with but that his descendants became Jewish by conversion. 

            I guess we won't know for sure about the Khazar connection until some Khazar bones show up in some Khazarian dig and they can be tested.  They may have to depend on a sign saying, "Here lies Bulan" king of the Khazars.  On the sign should be something in Hebrew telling who his father was.  Hope we're still around when that happens. 

            Right now my first cousin, Sandra Oster Phd of technical English and also a lawyer, whose mother was my father's sister, is getting ready to take the mtdna test starting tomorrow morning.  Then we'll know about the line of my grandfather's wife, Hattie Jermulowske of Suwalki, Poland who claimed she was a Litvak.  She was extremely short, under 5' like about 4'9 in her heyday, black curly hair, dark brown eyes, who had married when only age 19 to a very tall, light haired-maybe red in the beard- Nathan Goldfoot in the little mining town of Council, Idaho.  She was so short that she had to get on a chair to kiss him.  Sandra will probably mail the test at the end of tomorrow or the next morning.  I can't wait to see the results.  I've been reading up on the mt of Jewish women.  Now here's a case of not having choices.  I'm sure he was the only available Jewish guy who wandered in off the train that just started going through this burg where she happened to be.  Jewish guy meets Jewish gal and they got married.  10 months later my Uncle Charlie was born. 

            Sandra's father, Werner, just got out of Germany alive but couldn't get his parents or 16 yr old red-headed sister.  He is now deceased, but Sandra has his pipe and wonders if they can get enough dna off to test his alleles.  His family goes way back in Germany and his father was in the WWI, but no matter.  They died in the camps. 

            On the 15th I'm flying to Madison, Wisconsin to visit my brother, David.  Then we're driving to Wenona, Illinois (now part of Peoria) to visit the cemetery of our great grandparents, Abiathar Smith Robinson (his grave has not been found there, actually) and his wife, Julia Ann Tuller (she has a very tall headstone).  In there are also lots of other Robinsons that are related to I'm taking my camera and posting them all on www.findagrave.com where I'm a volunteer picture-taker.  Can't forget that side of the family. 

            My grandson wanted in on the action of dna discoveries, so I had my son tested and his results should be in about Nov 6th.  His father's parents were directly from England so his heritage took place in the counties of Hampshire and Surrey.  I've been writing about the history of England and had to create a new blog with all of these findings, of course.  Steve's father is a retired radiologist and is an agnostic, I believe.  He was a Reed College graduate which is where we met the summer after my high school graduation.  Dustin, my grandson, is now at Oregon State U in the veterinary grad school and loves it so far.  He has taken some dna studies in college and even had to test himself for something or other.  I found a genealogist in England who is a librarian and has done the work of translating off of original sources who is also a Henwood (my children's surname).  We believe they are connected but she has sent for a birth certificate that dates back to 1827.  They can do things like that in England.  This will show if paper-wise they are connected. 

            Well, in thinking back over all the discussionson ISOGG of late, it is exciting and fullfilling to know as much as we can find out using science about our past history.  To be alive at a time of such testing and discovery is a joy and makes up for all the other inconveniences of being born at this time.  I've studied all the religions and am so thrilled that I was born into a Jewish family.  I'm so glad that my mother converted.  She was proud of being Jewish and stuck up for us when under attack about Israel, etc.  Her family was kind and accepting and I had a background of celebrating both religions.  When I was an adult, I finally settled on just Jewish celebrations and  Xmas trees stayed out of my house, -but that was even after my own children became adults.  Here I was-the celebrated Queen Esther of the Purim Ball of 1951 in Portland, Oregon, and it took me time to know who and what I was.  That experience really stayed with me, though.  Maybe that was the drive that took me to Israel and kept me there for over 5 years teaching.  I had been a Sunday School attendee-a Sunday school teacher, and realized the importance of the fact that here I was at a most important time in history.  I needed to do my part to help Israel survive.  I've returned to Oregon and my son is now 99% well and a cardiac nurse.  I'm still trying to help Israel with my blogs: http://israel-nadene.blogspot.com and http://jewishfactsfromportland.blogspot.com  Being an elementary teacher, I found that adults, Jewish or non do not take time to read or even cared about what was happening, so that's why I created these blogs.  I was there during the war in Lebanon and knew that none of the facts were reaching Oregon, so I try to get people to read.  Ha!  At least the facts are there for me to retreive when I need them. 

            Gee whiz, I sure went on and on, didn't I?

            You're doing a great job.  I'm in awe of all the conversations on line.  What a group of intellectuals!

            Cousin Nadene

             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Dave
            Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 12:15 PM
            Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Khazars

             

            Nadene,

            Consider this. For hundreds of years there was little intermarriage among Ashkenazi Jewish people and their gentile neighbors. This is documented in some of the research papers posted on this site.

            Furthermore, about 50% of all Ashkenazi Jewish people go back to about 5 founding mothers based on the mtDNA studies.

            Apparently, there was one major conversion and integration of a gentile group into the Ashkenazi group. Those were the Khazars.

            Khazars were Caucasion. Take a look on the map. They lived almost right in the Caucasus Mountains. Caucasians are stock, red headed, freckled and light eyed.

            I agree with Professor Krupa that it appears many of us do carry Khazarian DNA. I do not yet agree that they were the source of our yDNA.

            Note that I made no reference to either your mother or mine. Wink, Wink.

            Dave

            --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > David,
            > What the Khazars had only accounts for a few of our genes now. That was a long time ago and we've added tons of genes for eye, skin and hair color. It only means that there might be a slight chance of that gene showing up in your makeup. My daughter has red hair and blue-green eyes and freckles, but I always figured that she got it from her father's side and my mother's father's side plus the rumor that my father's father had red in his beard (the Q1b person). With all those genes, it's no wonder she turned out so lovely. Now I find out that my mother's mother's relative is a red-head. Red hair is found all over the world, Jewish and non-Jewish.
            > Nadene Goldfoot
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: David Broudy
            > To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
            > Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:51 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Khazars
            >
            >
            >
            > On Oct 3, 2009, at 10:34 PM, NADENE GOLDFOOT wrote:
            >
            >
            > The Khazars were described by ibn-Said al-Maghribi as having blue eyes, light skin, and reddish hair.
            >
            >
            > Before most of my hair turned white it was reddish-brown. I'm Q1b, light freckly insta-burn skin and light brown eyes. All four grandparents had blue/green eyes, but my dad had very dark eyes for whatever reason. My shikse mom of unknown provenance (Scots-Irish- French as far as we know) has hazel eyes.
            >

          • Dave Howard
            Nadene, Rebekah would say you are a good candidate for autosomal testing. I must warn you it will open a whole new bag of worms for you. I think you may be
            Message 6 of 15 , Oct 6, 2009
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              Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Khazars Nadene,

              Rebekah would say you are a good candidate for autosomal testing. I must warn you it will open a whole new bag of worms for you.

              I think you may be getting my point. We probably have lots of Khazarian DNA in us. The us in this case includes all Ashkenazi Jewish people regardless of y-Haplogroup.

              However, just be the Khazars might have contributed some DNA does not mean they are the source of our yDNA.

              YDNA can be added into a population by one fertile male. 1,000 years later he leaves a bunch of very confused descendants.

              As more SNPs are discovered and more samples are added to the database we will eventually find genealogically useful information.

              I do not buy the idea the Khazars are the source of our yDNA.

              It appears the path for our group might be through Karachi Pakistan. Look it up on a map. Look it up in Wikipedia. Check out the Sindhi group.

              Almost all the other theories I have read in this discussion group do not make much sense. The Sindhi of Karachi and the Silk Road traders make the most sense to me. I like my Radanites theory best right now.

              Dave




              On 10/6/09 2:54 PM, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@...> wrote:


               
               

              Dave,
              You do make sense.  My question would then be, do we have any idea of where our Ydna came from considering the source today was Jewish?  The fact that it seems to differ from the Israelite Jews  means that we are a little different.  The fact that it is a Q and a branch of the Q haplogroup puts us back into the area of Mongolia, Siberia and parts of Turkey.  What group is on record to have had that happen that part of the people or one of the people or whatever could have spawned Jewish people?  And complicate that with the fact that most of these Q1bs had moved into "Russia" at some point in time?   

              Our ancestor only goes back 1,000 years.  The Khazarian Empire was at the height of power or created around 860ad, after the Muslim religion was born.

              1. Bulan
              , (864-870) p. 96. last "Quasi-divine" Shaman Emperor and first Jewish Khazar King , wanted Baharli killed as child outside marriage. Last half of 9th Century.Khazars officially converted to Judaism after 2 centuries of shamanist and Muslim rulers.

              This means that our original ancestor was not Jewish to start with but that his descendants became Jewish by conversion.  

              I guess we won't know for sure about the Khazar connection until some Khazar bones show up in some Khazarian dig and they can be tested.  They may have to depend on a sign saying, "Here lies Bulan" king of the Khazars.  On the sign should be something in Hebrew telling who his father was.  Hope we're still around when that happens.  

              Right now my first cousin, Sandra Oster Phd of technical English and also a lawyer, whose mother was my father's sister, is getting ready to take the mtdna test starting tomorrow morning.  Then we'll know about the line of my grandfather's wife, Hattie Jermulowske of Suwalki, Poland who claimed she was a Litvak.  She was extremely short, under 5' like about 4'9 in her heyday, black curly hair, dark brown eyes, who had married when only age 19 to a very tall, light haired-maybe red in the beard- Nathan Goldfoot in the little mining town of Council, Idaho.  She was so short that she had to get on a chair to kiss him.  Sandra will probably mail the test at the end of tomorrow or the next morning.  I can't wait to see the results.  I've been reading up on the mt of Jewish women.  Now here's a case of not having choices.  I'm sure he was the only available Jewish guy who wandered in off the train that just started going through this burg where she happened to be.  Jewish guy meets Jewish gal and they got married.  10 months later my Uncle Charlie was born.  

              Sandra's father, Werner, just got out of Germany alive but couldn't get his parents or 16 yr old red-headed sister.  He is now deceased, but Sandra has his pipe and wonders if they can get enough dna off to test his alleles.  His family goes way back in Germany and his father was in the WWI, but no matter.  They died in the camps.  

              On the 15th I'm flying to Madison, Wisconsin to visit my brother, David.  Then we're driving to Wenona, Illinois (now part of Peoria) to visit the cemetery of our great grandparents, Abiathar Smith Robinson (his grave has not been found there, actually) and his wife, Julia Ann Tuller (she has a very tall headstone).  In there are also lots of other Robinsons that are related to I'm taking my camera and posting them all on www.findagrave.com <http://www.findagrave.com>  where I'm a volunteer picture-taker.  Can't forget that side of the family.  

              My grandson wanted in on the action of dna discoveries, so I had my son tested and his results should be in about Nov 6th.  His father's parents were directly from England so his heritage took place in the counties of Hampshire and Surrey.  I've been writing about the history of England and had to create a new blog with all of these findings, of course.  Steve's father is a retired radiologist and is an agnostic, I believe.  He was a Reed College graduate which is where we met the summer after my high school graduation.  Dustin, my grandson, is now at Oregon State U in the veterinary grad school and loves it so far.  He has taken some dna studies in college and even had to test himself for something or other.  I found a genealogist in England who is a librarian and has done the work of translating off of original sources who is also a Henwood (my children's surname).  We believe they are connected but she has sent for a birth certificate that dates back to 1827.  They can do things like that in England.  This will show if paper-wise they are connected.  

              Well, in thinking back over all the discussionson ISOGG of late, it is exciting and fullfilling to know as much as we can find out using science about our past history.  To be alive at a time of such testing and discovery is a joy and makes up for all the other inconveniences of being born at this time.  I've studied all the religions and am so thrilled that I was born into a Jewish family.  I'm so glad that my mother converted.  She was proud of being Jewish and stuck up for us when under attack about Israel, etc.  Her family was kind and accepting and I had a background of celebrating both religions.  When I was an adult, I finally settled on just Jewish celebrations and  Xmas trees stayed out of my house, -but that was even after my own children became adults.  Here I was-the celebrated Queen Esther of the Purim Ball of 1951 in Portland, Oregon, and it took me time to know who and what I was.  That experience really stayed with me, though.  Maybe that was the drive that took me to Israel and kept me there for over 5 years teaching.  I had been a Sunday School attendee-a Sunday school teacher, and realized the importance of the fact that here I was at a most important time in history.  I needed to do my part to help Israel survive.  I've returned to Oregon and my son is now 99% well and a cardiac nurse.  I'm still trying to help Israel with my blogs: http://israel-nadene.blogspot.com and http://jewishfactsfromportland.blogspot.com  Being an elementary teacher, I found that adults, Jewish or non do not take time to read or even cared about what was happening, so that's why I created these blogs.  I was there during the war in Lebanon and knew that none of the facts were reaching Oregon, so I try to get people to read.  Ha!  At least the facts are there for me to retreive when I need them.  

              Gee whiz, I sure went on and on, didn't I?

              You're doing a great job.  I'm in awe of all the conversations on line.  What a group of intellectuals!

              Cousin Nadene

               

              ----- Original Message -----
               
              From:  Dave <mailto:dshoward@...>  
               
              To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com  
               
              Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 12:15  PM
               
              Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Khazars
               

                 
               

              Nadene,

              Consider this. For hundreds of years there was little  intermarriage among Ashkenazi Jewish people and their gentile neighbors. This  is documented in some of the research papers posted on this  site.

              Furthermore, about 50% of all Ashkenazi Jewish people go back to  about 5 founding mothers based on the mtDNA studies.

              Apparently, there  was one major conversion and integration of a gentile group into the Ashkenazi  group. Those were the Khazars.

              Khazars were Caucasion. Take a look on  the map. They lived almost right in the Caucasus Mountains. Caucasians are  stock, red headed, freckled and light eyed.

              I agree with Professor  Krupa that it appears many of us do carry Khazarian DNA. I do not yet agree  that they were the source of our yDNA.

              Note that I made no reference to  either your mother or mine. Wink, Wink.

              Dave

              --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com> ,  "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@...> wrote:
              >
              >  David,
              > What the Khazars had only accounts for a few of our genes now.  That was a long time ago and we've added tons of genes for eye, skin and hair  color. It only means that there might be a slight chance of that gene showing  up in your makeup. My daughter has red hair and blue-green eyes and freckles,  but I always figured that she got it from her father's side and my mother's  father's side plus the rumor that my father's father had red in his beard (the  Q1b person). With all those genes, it's no wonder she turned out so lovely.  Now I find out that my mother's mother's relative is a red-head. Red hair is  found all over the world, Jewish and non-Jewish.
              > Nadene  Goldfoot
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: David Broudy  
              > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com>   
              > Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:51 PM
              > Subject: Re:  [Ashkenazi-Q] Khazars
              >
              >
              >
              > On Oct 3, 2009, at  10:34 PM, NADENE GOLDFOOT wrote:
              >
              >
              > The Khazars were  described by ibn-Said al-Maghribi as having blue eyes, light skin, and reddish  hair.
              >
              >
              > Before most of my hair turned white it was  reddish-brown. I'm Q1b, light freckly insta-burn skin and light brown eyes.  All four grandparents had blue/green eyes, but my dad had very dark eyes for  whatever reason. My shikse mom of unknown provenance (Scots-Irish-French  as far as we know) has hazel eyes.
              >

               
                  



            • NADENE GOLDFOOT
              Dave, by autosomal testing, is that going beyond the 67 allele test? I guess that ll be my next goal in life. I m mailing in my cousin s mtDNA test in the
              Message 7 of 15 , Oct 7, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Dave, by autosomal testing, is that going beyond the 67 allele test?  I guess that'll be my next goal in life.  I'm mailing in my cousin's mtDNA test in the morning and will find out from that about my Q1b father's   mother's line.
                 
                Yes, we really have a mixture of dna in us.  I bet in the next 100 years they'll be able to have a test to test all of our dna from all our ancestors.  I'm glad we're alive in this generation to find out what interesting facts they have discovered right now.
                 
                I found the Radanites in "The Standard Jewish Encyclopedia. 
                Jewish merchants who, in the 9th cent., traveled between S France and China.  They are known mainly from a description by the early Arab geographer Ibn Khordadbeh (c. 846-86) who states that they spoke "Arabic, Persian, Roman, and the languages of the Franks, Andalusians, and Slavs."  He describes in detail four trade-routes that they followed.
                1. The first was via the Mediterranean to Alexandria, overland to the Red Sea, and via the Indian Ocean to the China Sea. 
                2. The second route went overland via Damascus, Baghdad, and Basra and then continued as in the previous route.
                3. The thrid of the routes was entirely overland across N. Africa to Palestine, Baghdad, and then into the interior of China,
                4. while the fourth went across central Europe. 
                 
                They were Jewish merchants of the 800's then.  The Khazarians were also Jewish merchants traveling on the silk road.  I wonder if they were in competition with each other?  Why would we think they and not the Khazars were our ancestors?  #4?  Khazars followed the same paths, didn't they?  What we need are some descendants of these two groups.  The Sindhi didn't make it into this encyclopedia.  I'll have to check them out in the wikipedia.  I think it's a toss-up between these two.  Our ancestor was a traveling salesman on the silk road.  He was very proficient in languages.  That fits my brother, David.  He spoke German so well and was so blond that when in Germany as a foreign exchange student, the Germans thought he was another German.  Then he spoke Dutch when married and lived in Holland and wasn't able to use German there.  He was great in Hebrew school, too.  When he was 5 yrs old I practiced my Latin lessons on him, being I was 8 years older, and he remembered better than I what the words were.  That was upsetting.  I'm going to hold out for Khazaria.  I like being a Jewish princess.  I wonder if the Russians have found any skeletons around the digs of Khazarian settlements.  I bet they have.
                Nadene
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 3:16 PM
                Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Khazars

                 

                Nadene,

                Rebekah would say you are a good candidate for autosomal testing. I must warn you it will open a whole new bag of worms for you.

                I think you may be getting my point. We probably have lots of Khazarian DNA in us. The us in this case includes all Ashkenazi Jewish people regardless of y-Haplogroup.

                However, just be the Khazars might have contributed some DNA does not mean they are the source of our yDNA.

                YDNA can be added into a population by one fertile male. 1,000 years later he leaves a bunch of very confused descendants.

                As more SNPs are discovered and more samples are added to the database we will eventually find genealogically useful information.

                I do not buy the idea the Khazars are the source of our yDNA.

                It appears the path for our group might be through Karachi Pakistan. Look it up on a map. Look it up in Wikipedia. Check out the Sindhi group.

                Almost all the other theories I have read in this discussion group do not make much sense. The Sindhi of Karachi and the Silk Road traders make the most sense to me. I like my Radanites theory best right now.

                Dave




                On 10/6/09 2:54 PM, "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@verizon. net> wrote:


                 
                 

                Dave,
                You do make sense.  My question would then be, do we have any idea of where our Ydna came from considering the source today was Jewish?  The fact that it seems to differ from the Israelite Jews  means that we are a little different.  The fact that it is a Q and a branch of the Q haplogroup puts us back into the area of Mongolia, Siberia and parts of Turkey.  What group is on record to have had that happen that part of the people or one of the people or whatever could have spawned Jewish people?  And complicate that with the fact that most of these Q1bs had moved into "Russia" at some point in time?   

                Our ancestor only goes back 1,000 years.  The Khazarian Empire was at the height of power or created around 860ad, after the Muslim religion was born.

                1. Bulan
                , (864-870) p. 96. last "Quasi-divine" Shaman Emperor and first Jewish Khazar King , wanted Baharli killed as child outside marriage. Last half of 9th Century.Khazars officially converted to Judaism after 2 centuries of shamanist and Muslim rulers.

                This means that our original ancestor was not Jewish to start with but that his descendants became Jewish by conversion.  

                I guess we won't know for sure about the Khazar connection until some Khazar bones show up in some Khazarian dig and they can be tested.  They may have to depend on a sign saying, "Here lies Bulan" king of the Khazars.  On the sign should be something in Hebrew telling who his father was.  Hope we're still around when that happens.  

                Right now my first cousin, Sandra Oster Phd of technical English and also a lawyer, whose mother was my father's sister, is getting ready to take the mtdna test starting tomorrow morning.  Then we'll know about the line of my grandfather' s wife, Hattie Jermulowske of Suwalki, Poland who claimed she was a Litvak.  She was extremely short, under 5' like about 4'9 in her heyday, black curly hair, dark brown eyes, who had married when only age 19 to a very tall, light haired-maybe red in the beard- Nathan Goldfoot in the little mining town of Council, Idaho.  She was so short that she had to get on a chair to kiss him.  Sandra will probably mail the test at the end of tomorrow or the next morning.  I can't wait to see the results.  I've been reading up on the mt of Jewish women.  Now here's a case of not having choices.  I'm sure he was the only available Jewish guy who wandered in off the train that just started going through this burg where she happened to be.  Jewish guy meets Jewish gal and they got married.  10 months later my Uncle Charlie was born.  

                Sandra's father, Werner, just got out of Germany alive but couldn't get his parents or 16 yr old red-headed sister.  He is now deceased, but Sandra has his pipe and wonders if they can get enough dna off to test his alleles.  His family goes way back in Germany and his father was in the WWI, but no matter.  They died in the camps.  

                On the 15th I'm flying to Madison, Wisconsin to visit my brother, David.  Then we're driving to Wenona, Illinois (now part of Peoria) to visit the cemetery of our great grandparents, Abiathar Smith Robinson (his grave has not been found there, actually) and his wife, Julia Ann Tuller (she has a very tall headstone).  In there are also lots of other Robinsons that are related to I'm taking my camera and posting them all on www.findagrave. com <http://www.findagra ve.com>  where I'm a volunteer picture-taker.  Can't forget that side of the family.  

                My grandson wanted in on the action of dna discoveries, so I had my son tested and his results should be in about Nov 6th.  His father's parents were directly from England so his heritage took place in the counties of Hampshire and Surrey.  I've been writing about the history of England and had to create a new blog with all of these findings, of course.  Steve's father is a retired radiologist and is an agnostic, I believe.  He was a Reed College graduate which is where we met the summer after my high school graduation.  Dustin, my grandson, is now at Oregon State U in the veterinary grad school and loves it so far.  He has taken some dna studies in college and even had to test himself for something or other.  I found a genealogist in England who is a librarian and has done the work of translating off of original sources who is also a Henwood (my children's surname).  We believe they are connected but she has sent for a birth certificate that dates back to 1827.  They can do things like that in England.  This will show if paper-wise they are connected.  

                Well, in thinking back over all the discussionson ISOGG of late, it is exciting and fullfilling to know as much as we can find out using science about our past history.  To be alive at a time of such testing and discovery is a joy and makes up for all the other inconveniences of being born at this time.  I've studied all the religions and am so thrilled that I was born into a Jewish family.  I'm so glad that my mother converted.  She was proud of being Jewish and stuck up for us when under attack about Israel, etc.  Her family was kind and accepting and I had a background of celebrating both religions.  When I was an adult, I finally settled on just Jewish celebrations and  Xmas trees stayed out of my house, -but that was even after my own children became adults.  Here I was-the celebrated Queen Esther of the Purim Ball of 1951 in Portland, Oregon, and it took me time to know who and what I was.  That experience really stayed with me, though.  Maybe that was the drive that took me to Israel and kept me there for over 5 years teaching.  I had been a Sunday School attendee-a Sunday school teacher, and realized the importance of the fact that here I was at a most important time in history.  I needed to do my part to help Israel survive.  I've returned to Oregon and my son is now 99% well and a cardiac nurse.  I'm still trying to help Israel with my blogs: http://israel- nadene.blogspot. com and http://jewishfactsf romportland. blogspot. com  Being an elementary teacher, I found that adults, Jewish or non do not take time to read or even cared about what was happening, so that's why I created these blogs.  I was there during the war in Lebanon and knew that none of the facts were reaching Oregon, so I try to get people to read.  Ha!  At least the facts are there for me to retreive when I need them.  

                Gee whiz, I sure went on and on, didn't I?

                You're doing a great job.  I'm in awe of all the conversations on line.  What a group of intellectuals!

                Cousin Nadene

                 

                ----- Original Message -----
                 
                From:  Dave <mailto:dshoward@ usa.net>  
                 
                To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com  
                 
                Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 12:15  PM
                 
                Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Khazars
                 

                   
                 

                Nadene,

                Consider this. For hundreds of years there was little  intermarriage among Ashkenazi Jewish people and their gentile neighbors. This  is documented in some of the research papers posted on this  site.

                Furthermore, about 50% of all Ashkenazi Jewish people go back to  about 5 founding mothers based on the mtDNA studies.

                Apparently, there  was one major conversion and integration of a gentile group into the Ashkenazi  group. Those were the Khazars.

                Khazars were Caucasion. Take a look on  the map. They lived almost right in the Caucasus Mountains. Caucasians are  stock, red headed, freckled and light eyed.

                I agree with Professor  Krupa that it appears many of us do carry Khazarian DNA. I do not yet agree  that they were the source of our yDNA.

                Note that I made no reference to  either your mother or mine. Wink, Wink.

                Dave

                --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com <mailto:Ashkenazi- Q%40yahoogroups. com> ,  "NADENE GOLDFOOT" <goldfoot1@.. .> wrote:
                >
                >  David,
                > What the Khazars had only accounts for a few of our genes now.  That was a long time ago and we've added tons of genes for eye, skin and hair  color. It only means that there might be a slight chance of that gene showing  up in your makeup. My daughter has red hair and blue-green eyes and freckles,  but I always figured that she got it from her father's side and my mother's  father's side plus the rumor that my father's father had red in his beard (the  Q1b person). With all those genes, it's no wonder she turned out so lovely.  Now I find out that my mother's mother's relative is a red-head. Red hair is  found all over the world, Jewish and non-Jewish.
                > Nadene  Goldfoot
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: David Broudy  
                > To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com <mailto:Ashkenazi- Q%40yahoogroups. com>   
                > Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:51 PM
                > Subject: Re:  [Ashkenazi-Q] Khazars
                >
                >
                >
                > On Oct 3, 2009, at  10:34 PM, NADENE GOLDFOOT wrote:
                >
                >
                > The Khazars were  described by ibn-Said al-Maghribi as having blue eyes, light skin, and reddish  hair.
                >
                >
                > Before most of my hair turned white it was  reddish-brown. I'm Q1b, light freckly insta-burn skin and light brown eyes.  All four grandparents had blue/green eyes, but my dad had very dark eyes for  whatever reason. My shikse mom of unknown provenance (Scots-Irish- French  as far as we know) has hazel eyes.
                >

                 
                    



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