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Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] TMRCA of Q1b and diagrams

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  • NADENE GOLDFOOT
    Pavel, Here s a little information I found. I don t know if it will help, though. I have read that from the years 265-460 Ashina had been part of various late
    Message 1 of 14 , May 11 5:06 PM
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      Pavel,
      Here's a little information I found.  I don't know if it will help, though.
      I have read that from the years 265-460 Ashina had been part of various late Xiongnu confederations.
      Up to the 400's, the original genetic pool of Ashina was a mixture of "original 500 Ashinas families" from north China,  Current Turkestan with Turkic tribes from South Siberia up to the 5th century. 
      460:  Ashina was subjugated by Rouran who ousted them from Xinjiang into the Altay Mountains, where Ashina gradually emerged as the leaders of the early Turkic confederation, known as the Gokturks.
      The Rouran was a confederation of nomadic tribes (Xianbei people who remained in Mongolian steppes after most migrated south to Northern China to set up various kingdoms.  There were on the Northern borders of inner China from late 4th century until late 6th century.) 
       
      300-700 Sogdians dominated East-West trade, with Suyab and Talas among their main centers in the north.  Main caravan merchants of Central Asia.  Protected by military power of the Gokturks Gokturks call themselves the Blue Turks. (joint enterprise of Ashina clan and the Soghdians.
      500:  Ashina's name first appeared in Chinese records.
       
        Kevin Alan Brook, who wrote  "The Jews of Khazaria", says on page 3 that the Khazars were racially and ethnically mixed.  Some had black hair with dark brown eyes, red-haired people with green or hazel eyes, and fair haired people with blue eyes.  Some had high cheekbones, wide faces and narrow eyes, like people of East Asia, other resembled Europeans or Middle Easterners.
       
      Nadene Goldfoot
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 12:23 PM
      Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] TMRCA of Q1b and diagrams

      I computed a Time to the Most Recent Ancestor for Q1b in the Q FTDNA
      project and received about 1500 years.
      I have used mutation rates 0.090 mutations in a generation for 37
      marker haplotypes and 0.145 mutations for 67 markers haplotypes.

      Then I created a phylogenetic tree for the Q 37 markers haplotypes
      (using 'neighbor' tool from 'Phylip' package).
      On the diagram we see that a number of people, who was not tested as
      Q1b are likely Q1b and I included them into the computation of TMRCA.

      Then I received TMRCA about 1600-1700 years.

      Of course it is very approximately estimations because I use the same
      mutation speed of the all markers in TMRCA computation. And these
      mutation speed of markers is a subject of hot discussions in a
      scientific community.

      We see at the diagram, that a number of Q1b haplotypes are grouped
      separately - these are close related jewish haplotypes and others are
      creating a weakly related bush. Interestingly that this bush contains
      europian, jewish and even Iraqi haplotypes! [ see attached file
      q-37.jpg]

      After playing with 'Network' tool I created another diagramm, which
      used different mutation speed for the different markers (data provided
      by Ray Banks from G haplogroup project).
      Here we see that on 67 markers some jewish haplotypes, which were on
      separate branch earlier remains in the jewish clade - just are a
      little different. (Krupp and Minkowsky)

      [ see attached file q-67-network. jpg and q-67-2.jpg - zoomed in]

      For the jewish subclade we receive TMRCA between 800 to 1000 years.
      Here I want to repeat my idea - that we do not know - either Q1b
      entered jewish people at this point of time or it entered earlier, but
      1000 years before they passed a bottleneck.

      We see also that non-jewish Q1b haplotypes mostly are not related to
      converted jews - they are on a separate branches - such like Johannes
      Bosiger and Jacob Jaggi. The diagramm shows that may be Antoine
      Magalhaes, Litke, Bionde own haplotypes derived from the jewish clade,
      but it may be wrong conclusion - we just do not have enough haplotypes
      similar to those. My feeling is that they also are not related to jews
      at all.

      Our most distant Q1b relatives are Antoine Magalhaes, Bennet and
      Francis Miller. If we remove them, TMRCA decreases to about 1300
      years.

      So we assume, that Q1b arrived to Europe about 1700 years before
      (again - my computations are very approximate) . May be it arrived once
      - as a family or a separate person. Otherwise we need assume that it
      arrived a number of times in 400-500 years, but everytime there were
      related people (with TMRCA 300-400 years)

      Can somebody point me - which contacts with Q areas existed about 300
      B.C.-600 B.C?
      I know about Huns invasion. May be they carried a number of Q
      subgroups - Q1b, Q1a3 (which received Vikings and then Scotlands) and
      Q1a2 of Hungarians?

      What is also interesting - we have one Q1 haplotype from Iraq (Seadyah
      Husein). He was tested as Q1, and I do not know whether he was tested
      for M378. But if he is actually Q1b, his haplotype is very close to
      other haplotypes. It is closer to jewish Q1b than Antoine Magalhaes.
      Is it meaning that this Q1b arrived to Iraq from Europe, rather than
      from East?
      Do not know.

      And what is still very strange for me - where are Q1b haplotypes from
      Asia? Only 2 tribes - is too small Q1b presence in the world.
      Alfred pointed me to Khan haplotype from Ashina project, but his
      haplotype is 12 markers only - so we can not analyze it with any
      value.

      --
      Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
      +972-54-5583675,javaap@gmail. com

      (diagrams are attached)

    • Rebekah Canada
      The Husein line is Jewish. They are Sephardi -- Iraq Jews. There are plenty of Rabbis from that line. Rebekah On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Pavel Bernshtam
      Message 2 of 14 , May 11 7:52 PM
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        The Husein line is Jewish. They are Sephardi --> Iraq Jews. There are
        plenty of Rabbis from that line.

        Rebekah

        On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
        ...
        >
        > What is also interesting - we have one Q1 haplotype from Iraq (Seadyah
        > Husein). He was tested as Q1, and I do not know whether he was tested
        > for M378. But if he is actually Q1b, his haplotype is very close to
        > other haplotypes. It is closer to jewish Q1b than Antoine Magalhaes.
        > Is it meaning that this Q1b arrived to Iraq from Europe, rather than
        > from East?
        > Do not know.
        >
        > And what is still very strange for me - where are Q1b haplotypes from
        > Asia? Only 2 tribes - is too small Q1b presence in the world.
        > Alfred pointed me to Khan haplotype from Ashina project, but his
        > haplotype is 12 markers only - so we can not analyze it with any
        > value.
        >
        >
        > --
        > Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
        > +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
        >
        >
        > (diagrams are attached)
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Join Our yDNA Group at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jewish_QYahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • KRUPA
        Khazars invaded deeply the Caliphat, with seat in Baghdad, up to,almost Damascus on other side . Khazars fled to the same area after fall of its empire.
        Message 3 of 14 , May 11 10:45 PM
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          Khazars invaded deeply the Caliphat, with seat in Baghdad, up
          to,almost Damascus on other side .
          Khazars fled to the same area after fall of its empire.
          Khazars also fled to Spain.
          Khazars converts ,anyway,stayed mainly on territory of Ukraine,
          Russia.

          Above are facts from historical books.

          Alfred

          Citiram Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@...>:

          > The Husein line is Jewish. They are Sephardi --> Iraq Jews. There are
          > plenty of Rabbis from that line.
          >
          > Rebekah
          >
          > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
          > ...
          >>
          >> What is also interesting - we have one Q1 haplotype from Iraq (Seadyah
          >> Husein). He was tested as Q1, and I do not know whether he was tested
          >> for M378. But if he is actually Q1b, his haplotype is very close to
          >> other haplotypes. It is closer to jewish Q1b than Antoine Magalhaes.
          >> Is it meaning that this Q1b arrived to Iraq from Europe, rather than
          >> from East?
          >> Do not know.
          >>
          >> And what is still very strange for me - where are Q1b haplotypes from
          >> Asia? Only 2 tribes - is too small Q1b presence in the world.
          >> Alfred pointed me to Khan haplotype from Ashina project, but his
          >> haplotype is 12 markers only - so we can not analyze it with any
          >> value.
          >>
          >>
          >> --
          >> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
          >> +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
          >>
          >>
          >> (diagrams are attached)
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >> Join Our yDNA Group at
          >> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jewish_QYahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >


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        • NADENE GOLDFOOT
          Pavel said, Is it meaning that this Q1b arrived to Iraq from Europe, rather than ... Pavel, I heard at a Jewish genealogy lecture that we Ashkenazi Jews
          Message 4 of 14 , May 12 7:55 AM
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            Pavel said, ">> Is it meaning that this Q1b arrived to Iraq from Europe, rather than
            >> from
            East?
            >> Do not know."
            Pavel, I heard at a Jewish genealogy lecture that we Ashkenazi Jews had gone to Europe, and had then been invited back by the Ottoman Empire to help them in certain business, involving monies, etc, so some did go back to the Middle East.  That was a surprise to us.  We traveled around more than I realized.
            Nadene Goldfoot
            >>
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: KRUPA
            Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 10:45 PM
            Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] TMRCA of Q1b and diagrams

            Khazars invaded deeply the Caliphat, with seat in Baghdad, up
            to,almost Damascus on other side .
            Khazars fled to the same area after fall of its empire.
            Khazars also fled to Spain.
            Khazars converts ,anyway,stayed mainly on territory of Ukraine,
            Russia.

            Above are facts from historical books.

            Alfred

            Citiram Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@ gmail.com>:

            > The Husein line is Jewish. They are Sephardi --> Iraq Jews. There are
            > plenty of Rabbis from that line.
            >
            > Rebekah
            >
            > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@gmail. com> wrote:
            > ...
            >>
            >> What is also interesting - we have one Q1 haplotype from Iraq (Seadyah
            >> Husein). He was tested as Q1, and I do not know whether he was tested
            >> for M378. But if he is actually Q1b, his haplotype is very close to
            >> other haplotypes. It is closer to jewish Q1b than Antoine Magalhaes.
            >> Is it meaning that this Q1b arrived to Iraq from Europe, rather than
            >> from East?
            >> Do not know.
            >>
            >> And what is still very strange for me - where are Q1b haplotypes from
            >> Asia? Only 2 tribes - is too small Q1b presence in the world.
            >> Alfred pointed me to Khan haplotype from Ashina project, but his
            >> haplotype is 12 markers only - so we can not analyze it with any
            >> value.
            >>
            >>
            >> --
            >> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
            >> +972-54-5583675,javaap@gmail. com
            >>
            >>
            >> (diagrams are attached)
            >>
            >>
            >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
            >>
            >> Join Our yDNA Group at
            >> http://www.familytr eedna.com/ public/Jewish_ QYahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >

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          • Pavel Bernshtam
            Thank you, Rebekah, as I see all Sephardi Q1b haplotypes are in separate cluster from Askenazi, isn t? How many Sephardic Q1b we have? ... -- Pavel Bernshtam,
            Message 5 of 14 , May 12 12:28 PM
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              Thank you, Rebekah, as I see all Sephardi Q1b haplotypes are in
              separate cluster from Askenazi, isn't?
              How many Sephardic Q1b we have?

              On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 05:52, Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > The Husein line is Jewish. They are Sephardi --> Iraq Jews. There are
              > plenty of Rabbis from that line.
              >
              > Rebekah
              >
              > On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
              > ...
              >
              >>
              >> What is also interesting - we have one Q1 haplotype from Iraq (Seadyah
              >> Husein). He was tested as Q1, and I do not know whether he was tested
              >> for M378. But if he is actually Q1b, his haplotype is very close to
              >> other haplotypes. It is closer to jewish Q1b than Antoine Magalhaes.
              >> Is it meaning that this Q1b arrived to Iraq from Europe, rather than
              >> from East?
              >> Do not know.
              >>
              >> And what is still very strange for me - where are Q1b haplotypes from
              >> Asia? Only 2 tribes - is too small Q1b presence in the world.
              >> Alfred pointed me to Khan haplotype from Ashina project, but his
              >> haplotype is 12 markers only - so we can not analyze it with any
              >> value.
              >>
              >>
              >> --
              >> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
              >> +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
              >>
              >>
              >> (diagrams are attached)
              >>
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------
              >>
              >> Join Our yDNA Group at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jewish_QYahoo!
              >> Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >



              --
              Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
              +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
            • Pavel Bernshtam
              Alfred, it seems that Khazars theory can explain everything. It is not a good sign. I see how it can explain presence Q1b in Sephardic community, but I do not
              Message 6 of 14 , May 12 12:32 PM
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                Alfred, it seems that Khazars theory can explain everything. It is not
                a good sign.
                I see how it can explain presence Q1b in Sephardic community, but I do
                not see how it can explain presence Q1b in England, Italy and
                Switzerland.
                If all these were jews converts we would see the common TMRCA for jews
                and non jews. However it seems that Q1b entered jews AFTER it entered
                Europe.

                Also I do not see how this theory can explain 1700 years TMRCA.



                On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 08:45, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ka.t-com.hr> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Khazars invaded deeply the Caliphat, with seat in Baghdad, up
                > to,almost Damascus on other side .
                > Khazars fled to the same area after fall of its empire.
                > Khazars also fled to Spain.
                > Khazars converts ,anyway,stayed mainly on territory of Ukraine,
                > Russia.
                >
                > Above are facts from historical books.
                >
                > Alfred
                >
                > Citiram Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@...>:
                >
                >> The Husein line is Jewish. They are Sephardi --> Iraq Jews. There are
                >> plenty of Rabbis from that line.
                >>
                >> Rebekah
                >>
                >> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
                >> ...
                >>>
                >>> What is also interesting - we have one Q1 haplotype from Iraq (Seadyah
                >>> Husein). He was tested as Q1, and I do not know whether he was tested
                >>> for M378. But if he is actually Q1b, his haplotype is very close to
                >>> other haplotypes. It is closer to jewish Q1b than Antoine Magalhaes.
                >>> Is it meaning that this Q1b arrived to Iraq from Europe, rather than
                >>> from East?
                >>> Do not know.
                >>>
                >>> And what is still very strange for me - where are Q1b haplotypes from
                >>> Asia? Only 2 tribes - is too small Q1b presence in the world.
                >>> Alfred pointed me to Khan haplotype from Ashina project, but his
                >>> haplotype is 12 markers only - so we can not analyze it with any
                >>> value.
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> --
                >>> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
                >>> +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> (diagrams are attached)
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> ------------------------------------
                >>>
                >>> Join Our yDNA Group at
                >>> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jewish_QYahoo! Groups Links
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>
                >
                > ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
                > Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                > Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                > http://shopping.tportal.hr
                >
                >



                --
                Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
                +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
              • Rebekah Canada
                Hello, This is the only one in the project. The divergence date is the earliest Q-M378 could have come into the Jewish population though. Regards, Rebekah
                Message 7 of 14 , May 12 12:34 PM
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                  Hello,

                  This is the only one in the project. The divergence date is the
                  earliest Q-M378 could have come into the Jewish population though.

                  Regards,
                  Rebekah

                  On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
                  > Thank you, Rebekah, as I see all Sephardi Q1b haplotypes are in
                  > separate cluster from Askenazi, isn't?
                  > How many Sephardic Q1b we have?
                  >
                  > On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 05:52, Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> The Husein line is Jewish. They are Sephardi --> Iraq Jews. There are
                  >> plenty of Rabbis from that line.
                  >>
                  >> Rebekah
                  >>
                  >> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
                  >> ...
                  >>
                  >>>
                  >>> What is also interesting - we have one Q1 haplotype from Iraq (Seadyah
                  >>> Husein). He was tested as Q1, and I do not know whether he was tested
                  >>> for M378. But if he is actually Q1b, his haplotype is very close to
                  >>> other haplotypes. It is closer to jewish Q1b than Antoine Magalhaes.
                  >>> Is it meaning that this Q1b arrived to Iraq from Europe, rather than
                  >>> from East?
                  >>> Do not know.
                  >>>
                  >>> And what is still very strange for me - where are Q1b haplotypes from
                  >>> Asia? Only 2 tribes - is too small Q1b presence in the world.
                  >>> Alfred pointed me to Khan haplotype from Ashina project, but his
                  >>> haplotype is 12 markers only - so we can not analyze it with any
                  >>> value.
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> --
                  >>> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
                  >>> +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> (diagrams are attached)
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>
                  >>> Join Our yDNA Group at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jewish_QYahoo!
                  >>> Groups Links
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
                  > +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Join Our yDNA Group at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jewish_QYahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Rebekah Canada
                  My apologies. I meant to say latest. As Q-M378 was likely introduced into the Jewish population only once. Rebekah
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 12 12:36 PM
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                    My apologies. I meant to say latest. As Q-M378 was likely introduced
                    into the Jewish population only once.

                    Rebekah

                    On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
                    > Hello,
                    >
                    > This is the only one in the project. The divergence date is the
                    > earliest Q-M378 could have come into the Jewish population though.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Rebekah
                  • Pavel Bernshtam
                    We do not know yet. For example E1b1 was introduced to jews a number of times. It seems that we have a little more Sephardic haplotypes of Q1b in another
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 12 12:43 PM
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                      We do not know yet.
                      For example E1b1 was introduced to jews a number of times.

                      It seems that we have a little more Sephardic haplotypes of Q1b in
                      another projects.

                      On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 22:36, Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > My apologies. I meant to say latest. As Q-M378 was likely introduced
                      > into the Jewish population only once.
                      >
                      > Rebekah
                      >
                      > On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@...>
                      > wrote:
                      >> Hello,
                      >>
                      >> This is the only one in the project. The divergence date is the
                      >> earliest Q-M378 could have come into the Jewish population though.
                      >>
                      >> Regards,
                      >> Rebekah
                      >



                      --
                      Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
                      +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
                    • Rebekah Canada
                      Yes. But E1b1 is a much older subclade than Q1b. Perhaps. Rebekah
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 12 12:46 PM
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                        Yes. But E1b1 is a much older subclade than Q1b. Perhaps.

                        Rebekah

                        On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
                        > We do not know yet.
                        > For example E1b1 was introduced to jews a number of times.
                        >
                        > It seems that we have a little more Sephardic haplotypes of Q1b in
                        > another projects.
                      • KRUPA
                        Yes, almost 500 years of existence of huge and mighty Khazarian Empire explains Jewish Q1b, not Q1b in general. The truth usually have this habit ... to
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 12 12:55 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Yes, almost 500 years of existence of huge and mighty Khazarian
                          Empire explains Jewish Q1b, not Q1b in general.
                          The truth usually have this habit ... to explain..and to
                          clarify..



                          Citiram Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...>:

                          > Alfred, it seems that Khazars theory can explain everything. It is not
                          > a good sign.
                          > I see how it can explain presence Q1b in Sephardic community, but I do
                          > not see how it can explain presence Q1b in England, Italy and
                          > Switzerland.
                          > If all these were jews converts we would see the common TMRCA for jews
                          > and non jews. However it seems that Q1b entered jews AFTER it entered
                          > Europe.
                          >
                          > Also I do not see how this theory can explain 1700 years TMRCA.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 08:45, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ka.t-com.hr> wrote:
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Khazars invaded deeply the Caliphat, with seat in Baghdad, up
                          >> to,almost Damascus on other side .
                          >> Khazars fled to the same area after fall of its empire.
                          >> Khazars also fled to Spain.
                          >> Khazars converts ,anyway,stayed mainly on territory of Ukraine,
                          >> Russia.
                          >>
                          >> Above are facts from historical books.
                          >>
                          >> Alfred
                          >>
                          >> Citiram Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@...>:
                          >>
                          >>> The Husein line is Jewish. They are Sephardi --> Iraq Jews. There are
                          >>> plenty of Rabbis from that line.
                          >>>
                          >>> Rebekah
                          >>>
                          >>> On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Pavel Bernshtam <javaap@...> wrote:
                          >>> ...
                          >>>>
                          >>>> What is also interesting - we have one Q1 haplotype from Iraq (Seadyah
                          >>>> Husein). He was tested as Q1, and I do not know whether he was tested
                          >>>> for M378. But if he is actually Q1b, his haplotype is very close to
                          >>>> other haplotypes. It is closer to jewish Q1b than Antoine Magalhaes.
                          >>>> Is it meaning that this Q1b arrived to Iraq from Europe, rather than
                          >>>> from East?
                          >>>> Do not know.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> And what is still very strange for me - where are Q1b haplotypes from
                          >>>> Asia? Only 2 tribes - is too small Q1b presence in the world.
                          >>>> Alfred pointed me to Khan haplotype from Ashina project, but his
                          >>>> haplotype is 12 markers only - so we can not analyze it with any
                          >>>> value.
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> --
                          >>>> Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
                          >>>> +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> (diagrams are attached)
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Join Our yDNA Group at
                          >>>> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jewish_QYahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >> ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
                          >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                          >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                          >> http://shopping.tportal.hr
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Pavel Bernshtam, Software Architect, Cadence Design Systems
                          > +972-54-5583675,javaap@...
                          >


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