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Official Rumors #1, #2, and #3 - When and Where our yDNA Came From

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  • Dave Howard
    Official Rumor #1 - We all appear to come from one man who lived about 1,000 years ago. (More on this in a separate message) Official Rumor #2 - We appear to
    Message 1 of 35 , Apr 6, 2009
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      Official Rumor #1 - We all appear to come from one man who lived about 1,000 years ago. (More on this in a separate message)
      Official Rumor #2 - We appear to be the only Europeans with the M378 SNP (Haplogroup Q1b). (Subject of this note.)
      Official Rumor #3 - While we may have Khazarian DNA the Khazarians are not the source of our yDNA. The Silk Road,  Samanids, and the Khazarians may have facilitated our link to the the true source of our yDNA, a member of the Hazara or Sindhis tribe of Afghanistan, Pakistan, or India. (Subject of this note.)

      They are rumors because I do not have the academic or scientific qualifications to circulate scientific conclusions. As you know, rumors may be true but they may likewise be false. Since I am one of the managers of this discussion group I have the authority to publish rumors official to this site. I am using that prerogative at this time.

      (Words appearing in a different color are active Internet links. Click on them for additional information.)

      Rumor #2 - We have our own SNP !!! - We appear to be the only Europeans with the M378 SNP.

      (Remember that a SNP is an actual mutation in the yDNA molecule that occurs every 5,000 years ago. SNPs are the markers anthropologists love to use to link up all humanity and assign us to different haplogroups. These are not the fast mutating STRs which are strings of repeating junk DNA that are more useful for genealogy because they change relatively quickly. If you still do not know the difference between an SNP and an STR - don't worry about it. Just keep reading.)

      This conclusion appears to be consistent with the FamilyTreeDNA.com database. On the other hand this concept may prove to be off base in the future. (Pun intended)

      I have gone through every close match with every person in the Jewish_Q group at FamilyTreeDNA.com and we seem unanimously to be northern European Jews (Ashkenazim). Enough of us have been tested so that we can reasonably deduce that  we all have the M378 SNP (Haplogroup Q1b). This is downstream from markers M242 which makes us Q and P36.2 which makes us Q1. It clearly distinguishes us from the Native Americans who are Haplogroup Q but do not have the M378 SNP.

      We do share the M378 with about 4% of the members of Hazara and the Sindhis tribes who traditionally have been herdsmen in an area of northern Afganistan, Pakistan, and India. See the yDNA Distribution Patterns in India paper in our Files section published by Sangupta et al in 2005 for the discovery of M378. There is a typographical error in the report that shows M378 downstream from M120.

      Next comes Official Rumor #1. It is that we all appear to go back to one man who lived about 1,000  years ago. (I will post a separate message on this.)

      Now I make an assumption. Since the SNP is probably thousands of years old and we have only had it for about 1,000 years I assume we got our M378 from a Hazara or Sindhis and that we did not give it to them. (Obviously, there could have been some presently unknown common source.)

      This leads to the question: How in the world did a member of the Hazara or Sindhis tribe add his yDNA to our group? The answer jumps right out at you if you follow historical geography.

      The answer: The Silk Road!!  Wikipedia has a wonderful article on The Silk Road , click on the link an you will see it.

      The Samanids  controlled the Silk Road about the time our common ancestor lived? Following is a quote from the Wikipedia article. (I activated many of the links.)

      The Sogdians  dominated the East-West trade after the 4th century CE up to the 8th century CE, with Suyab  and Talas ranking among their main centers in the north. They were the maincaravan merchants of Central Asia. Their commercial interests wereprotected by the resurgent military power of the Gokturks, whose empire has been described as"the joint enterprise of the Ashina  clan and the Soghdians".[38][37] Their trades with some interruptions continued in the 9th century within the framework of the Uighur Empire ,which until 840 extended across northern Central Asia and obtained fromChina enormous deliveries of silk in exchange for horses. At this timecaravans of Sogdians traveling to Upper Mongolia are mentioned inChinese sources. They played an equally important religious andcultural role. Part of the data about eastern Asia provided by Muslimgeographers of the 10th century actually goes back to Sogdian data ofthe period 750-840 and thus shows the survival of links between eastand west. However, after the end of the Uighur Empire, Sogdian tradewent through a crisis. What mainly issued from Muslim Central Asia was the trade of the Samanids, which resumed the northwestern road leading to the Khazars and theUrals and the northeastern one toward the nearby Turkic tribes.[37] [Bold Added]
      If you read the information at the Samanids link you will see that area of their geographical influence covers the area where the Hazara and Sindhis roamed. For now I nominate the Samanids as being our link.

      We seem to have the possibility of a connection at just the right time period. (By the way, the Mongolian invasions and Hun invasions of Europe do not tie in all all with our common ancestor. Attila the Hun  lived 406-453 CE and Genghis Khan  lived 1162-1227 CE. They were either too early or too late and did not carry the M378 marker.)

      It does not appear that our Hazara-Sindhis ancestor spread his yDNA into the Khazarian group. It does not mean he did not live among the Khazarians. As of now we do not know the Khazarian yDNA but we do know that a great group of Khazarians who were not Jewish wound up merging into the Hungarian people. Yet it does not appear that any modern Hungarians have SNP M378.

      This leads one to conclude that the Khazarians per se were not the source of our yDNA. They may have facilitated our Hazara-Sindhis ancestor's meeting and marrying a nice Jewish girl. He may have converted so they could have been married by a Rabbi. (I hate the idea of a rape or otherwise unwanted pregnancy.)

      It could have been that our Hazara-Sindhis ancestor married a Khazarian woman and their only son married a Jewish woman and this couple had several sons.

      Those of us with light colored eyes, reddish hair and stocky builds show evidence of Khazarian autosomal DNA  in our nuclei. But we do not carry Khazarian yDNA.

      I suggest you visit the Ashina project at Family Tree DNA  run by our own Prof. Krupa and read what he has posted there. I encourage you to join his group as well.

      I will be very interested in Professor Krupa's comments on this. I would also love to hear from some top scientist such as Dr. Michael Hammer, who was so excited when he and Bennett Greenspan told Rebekah Canada and me about 18 months ago that they had found a unique SNP for Jewish Qs. I would love to hear Rebekah Canada's comments as well. I am also going to discuss this with Dr. Martin Lewis, professor of the World Historical Geography class I am presently taking at Stanford University Continuing Studies.

      Please share your comments, corrections, questions, etc.

      Best regards to all and Happy Passover,

      Dave Howard
      San Jose, California

    • jason silber
      hmmmm.... ... From: KRUPA Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, April 25, 2009, 2:11 AM This is
      Message 35 of 35 , Apr 25, 2009
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        --- On Sat, 4/25/09, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ka.t-com.hr> wrote:
        From: KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ka.t-com.hr>
        Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q]
        To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, April 25, 2009, 2:11 AM

        This is what I have received from the Emeliye Akdjali Ashena, the
        shaman Emeliye Ulubayan Eaglewoman;

        OPEN LETTER: Reply to Alfred Krupa.

        On the 16th. July I received an E-mail from Alfred Krupa, living
        in Croatia, where he was born. He was seeking help from a
        shamanic source. His very detailed Open Letter explains his
        reasons for contacting me, an ongoing and personal interest in
        his Khazar origins. Extensive research had finally brought

        This is an area fraught with difficulties, not least that of the
        reluctance of some to acknowledge a Khazar – turcic element,
        and other Central – Asian lines which are clearly defined in
        DNA tests. The psychological barrier to admitting this
        connection seems to be paramount. One wonders why this should be

        But this is not my concern. The Khazars practiced shamanism. The
        most powerful shamans were great dream trackers with contacts in
        many parts of the world. This ability lives on today, often
        misunderstood, unrecognized, rejected. But, as the great
        teacher, Alberto Villoldo, says: ‘courageous dreaming can
        change the world.’

        Alfred Krupa asked if I could help him by undertaking dreaming
        and shamanic journeying on his behalf in order to try and find
        answers to the complexities posed by his research.

        It must be understood that a shaman has no personal agenda in the
        outcome of such tasks. He or she is a medium acting on behalf of
        the inquirer and seeking knowledge from the Cosmos, the keeper
        of all knowledge and wisdom. Success is not guaranteed.
        What-ever is given is a gift. The shaman must approach the task
        with impeccability.

        JOURNEY ONE: Question. From which line is my family descended?

        Your family descent is from Ateh, the sister of Bulan
        /A.Krupa comment; Bulan was last “quasi-divine” Shaman
        Emperor, and first Jewish Khazar King /.

        The family is connected to Princess Chichak, (Flower) /A.Krupa
        comment; Tzitzak was daughter of Khazar Quaghan Bihar/, who
        married into the Byzantine Royal family and became the mother of
        Emperor Leo 1V, the Khazar. (niece or cousin to Ateh and Bulan).

        JOURNEY TWO: Question. What and from where is the ancient
        origin of the Khazars?

        Ateh – Bulan – Mokadessa were related. Before Khazaria
        existed, the Blue Turks were centred in the valley of Orkhon on
        the shores of lake Baharli Su (Fragrant Waters). A Bon priest
        arrived with his daughter, very poor, having been evicted from
        Schauschung, Western Tibet, then part of Central Asia, overtaken
        by, and now ruled by Buddhist converts, who rejected the
        indigenous Bon, shamanic people and their priests.

        The Bon priest Ashena, and his daughter, joined the Blue Turks.
        He was a powerful Shaman. His daughter married into the turcic
        ruling family and name Ashina/Ashena evolved. Male Ashena/Ashina
        became most powerful of Blue Turk families.

        The connection strengthened when male Ashena, powerful shamans,
        married Blue Turk women. From this connection came the great
        dreamers and trackers.

        Ateh, sister of Bulan, was unmarried and had a lover. A daughter
        was born outside marriage. Bulan demanded her death. To save
        her, her father offered his life. The daughter was named
        Baharli, (Fragrant One). She eventually married the grandson of
        Bulan /A.Krupa comment; Further communication and number of
        journeys showed that mentioned grandson of Bulan, was well known
        Obadiah , second born son, The Jewish Khazar King, reigned
        instead of his first born brother who died sometime earlier/

        It is from this line that you descend.

        JOURNEY THREE: Question. Please advise on my design for the
        Ashina/Ashena crest.

        Double-headed EAGLE, red not black.

        In each talon a ripe pomegranate.

        White shield with individual crest. Representing each family.

        Golden crown with seven golden wolves singing (heads upraised).

        Emeliye Ulubayan Akdjali Asena - Eaglewoman MA PhD /Author of "A
        Dream Shrouded in Wind, A 21st Century Khazar Shamanic
        Voice",Published in 2007 by AuthorHouse- UK/

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