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Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Levites?

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  • KRUPA
    Dear Dave, Your family is one the clearest case of the Khazarian Princess who has been adopted into Levite rank. There is no Q s in Sephard population of
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 14, 2009
      Dear Dave,

      Your family is one the clearest case of the Khazarian Princess
      who has been adopted into Levite rank.
      There is no Q's in Sephard population of Spain. But still Sefer
      ha-Kaballah (1116.) ,as well as other sources mention Khazarian
      Princess (all members of the ruling class of Khazaria was equal
      and royal, this clan system of nobility has been adopted
      sometime later in Poland) , "pupils of the wise" , who has been
      as refugees in Spain after collapse of Khazaria.
      Your Q family came from Spain to Eastern Europe, in opposition to
      regular movement of Q's from Khazaria to Polish-Lithuanian
      Kingdom, Hungary, Germany etc. in period of (10)11-13th century.
      So many historical facts has been proven within Your case DNA
      testing, as well as firm and preserved Levite rank.
      Other families within our genetic pool with Levite and Cohanim
      tradition just underline this rank (meaning "the one who convert
      on Judaism, also has been adopted in Levite status"-that further
      means - somebody very important and right).

      Number of detected Levite families within our "circle" is
      increasing constantly. I have discussed this with Bennet
      Greenspan.

      I really don't feel that we descent from a single man before only
      900 years ago.
      New DNA results shows more and more diversity, but still within
      Ashkenazi genetic pool.And of course we should not forget
      Central Asian close or relat. close matches.

      I have enclosed recently updated and enlarged background text
      from the FTDNA Ashina of Khazars project. You will notice that
      in time of conversion, according to Jewish sources inital
      genetic input was emperor+4000 nobles/royals.
      By my opinion this number of 4000 definitely include Q1b,R1a1,R1b
      and others, but Q1b is most easier case to track due to
      low/moderate or none distribution outside Ashkenazi/Khazars
      poss.descendants and Hazara/Sindhi (according to currently
      avaible data).

      I am aware that Khazar ancestry is still not accepted or refused
      among many, but please read text with care /I have used as many
      as possible Jewish sources/, as it answers on many repeating
      questions;


      בט מלכותי של אשינה
      THE ASHINA (ASHENA/ASENA) ROYAL CLAN AND CONTEMPORARY DESCENDANTS

      One legend of the origin of the Türks relates how a boy is
      nurtured back to health by a she-wolf, who later
      becomes pregnant by him and gives birth in a cavern to ten boys
      who take the name Ashina and “in front of the
      gate to the camp the Türks placed a standard with a wolf’s
      head on it, so as to show that they had not forgotten
      their origins” .

      (Sinor, “Legendary Origin,” 224-25, see also 233-35 and
      Golden, “Imperial,” 42-43)


      "Of all the astonishing experiences of the widely dispersed
      Jewish people none was more extraordinary than that concerning
      the Khazars."

      (Nathan Ausubel in Pictorial History of the Jewish People,1953)


      ------------------------------------------------------------
      ------------------------------------------------------------

      With the discovery of haplogroup Q among Ashkenazi Jews, DNA
      researchers may have found the “smoking gun” of Khazarian
      ancestry. (A MOSAIC OF PEOPLE: THE JEWISH STORY AND A
      REASSESSMENT OF THE DNA EVIDENCE ,Ellen Levy-Coffman)

      "..I agree that it is likely that the presence of haplogroup Q
      among Ashkenazic Jews could come from descent from the Khazars".
      (Kevin Brook ,author of The Jews of Khazaria (Second Edition:
      Rowman & Littlefield, 2006) in open respond to D.Howard
      administrator of Ashkenazi-Q Yahoo group)


      A study published in 2004 by Stephen L. Zegura states that "The
      mutational age of Q-P36*, the marker defining the entire Q
      lineage, is 17,700 ± 4,820 years BP", and that its original
      source is the region of the Altay Mountains near the borders of
      Russia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, and China (Zegura 2004, pp.
      164-175).

      In accordance with the 2008 Y-Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree,
      previous Q is divided in Q and Q1(clades studied in this
      project, as well as Q1b).

      Q1b(M378)has been found at low frequency among samples of Hazara
      and Sindhis, as well as Ashkenazi Jews.

      There is a rough correlation between the Turkic-speaking peoples
      of Central Eurasia and Q.
      /http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_(Y-DNA)/

      The Ashina Royal Dynasty (CLAN) also originated from the Altai
      Mountain region;
      "...Two stages can be isolated within the history of origin of
      the Old Turks reconstructed on the base of the Old Turkic
      ethnogenealogical legends. The first one is attributed to the
      time span lasted up to the middle of the 5 century when tribes
      of Gorny and Mongolian Altai merged in the tribal alliance
      headed by Nadulushud.
      By "common consent" he was called Turk ('strong', 'robust').The
      second stage began in the middle of the 5 century when "500
      FAMILIES" OF THE ASHINA CLAN headed by Asyanshud were moved by
      the Rurans from Gaochang to the southern part of the Altai. Here
      the migrants joined the ranks of the Turk tribal unit. Probably
      it was a peaceful migration of the Ashina clan being cognate in
      language (though L.N. Gumilev considered them to be Mongolian
      speaking) and similar in the type of economic activity (nomadic
      cattlebreading)to aborigines of the Altai. This is proved by the
      fact that the Ashina "500 families" also assumed the name of
      Turks."
      (S.P.Nesterov,The Old Turks in Central Asia and Southern Siberia)

      Khan (sometimes spelled as Xan, Han, Ke-Han, Turkic: khan,
      Mongolian: qaan) is an originally Central Asian title for a
      sovereign or military ruler, first used by medieval
      Altaic-speaking nomadic tribes living to the north of China.
      Originally just the title for a tribal leader in the Rouran
      confederation,it was subsequently adopted by the Göktürks
      before later Turkic peoples and the Mongols brought it to the
      rest of Asia.
      It now has many equivalent meanings such as commander, leader, or
      ruler. (source; Wikipedia article about Khan title)

      Khagan or Great Khan (Old Turkic kaɣan ; Mongolian: хаган;
      Chinese: 可汗; pinyin: kèhán; alternatively spelled Chagan,
      Khaghan, Kagan, Kağan, Qagan, Qaghan), is a title of imperial
      rank in the Turkic and Mongolian languages equal to the status
      of emperor and someone who rules a Khaganate (empire, greater
      than an ordinary Khanate, but often referred to as such in
      western languages). It may also be translated as Khan of Khans,
      equivalent to King of Kings.(source; Wikipedia article about
      Khagan title)

      The R1a (R1a1) lineage is believed to have originated in the
      Eurasian Steppes north of the Black & Caspian Seas. This lineage
      is thought to descend from a population of the Kurgan culture,
      known for the domestication of the horse (circa 3000 B.C.E.).
      These people were also believed to be the first speakers of the
      Indo-European language group. This lineage is found in central &
      western Asia, India, and in Slavic populations of
      Europe.Haplogroup R1b is the most common haplogroup in European
      populations. It is believed to have expanded throughout Europe
      as humans re-colonized after the last glacial maximum 10-12
      thousand years ago. This lineage is also the haplogroup
      containing the Atlantic modal haplotype.

      Hypotetic origin of Ashina aristocracy;
      The origins of the Huns that swept through Europe during the 4th
      Century remain unclear. However, mainstream historians consider
      them as a group of nomadic tribes from Central Asia probably
      ruled by "a Turkic-speaking aristocracy".
      /http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomadic_empires /

      "Ashina -- the Royal clan of the Blue Turks (and possibly earlier
      the Huns) and later of the Khazars..."/Norman J. Finkelshteyn/

      Ashina aristocracy origin from historical records;
      Between the years 265 and 460 the Ashina had been part of various
      late Xiongnu confederations. About 460 they were subjugated by
      the Rouran, who ousted them from Xinjiang into the Altay
      Mountains, where the Ashina gradually emerged as the leaders of
      the early Turkic confederation, known as the Gokturks.
      By the 550s, Bumin Khan felt strong enough to throw off the yoke
      of the Rouran domination and established the Gokturks Empire,
      which flourished until the 630s and from 680s until 740s.
      The Orkhon Valley in Mongolia was the centre of the Ashina power.

      On basis of Chinese records, we could tell that Ashina Turks were
      acting more as a noble or royal line which played the role of a
      political entity unifying various Turkic speaking tribes.
      (http://www.republicanchina.org/Turks.html)

      The Ashina Royal Dynasty was also known as "desert aristocracy"
      and
      it was ruling class of a number of central Asian empires, and
      eventually it became the ruling class (nobility) and khagans
      (emperors) of the Khazarian Khaganate in the early middle age (in
      year 656, after the collapse of the Gokturk Empire under pressure
      from the resurgent Uyghurs, branches of the Ashina clan moved
      westward to Europe, where they became the Kaghans of the
      Khazars).

      According to The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia the ruling
      class of the Khazarian Empire - sacred Khagan Bulan and 4000 OF
      HIS NOBLES (PRINCESS OF THE ASHINA CLAN), from ancient "Turkish"
      shamanism converted to Judaism in the 8th century.
      While the kingdom and ruling class were officially Jewish, the
      Khazars did not adopt forced conversion.

      "The Khazars originated from the distant East, from the border
      areas of China. In the seventh century, they were swept by the
      Great Migrations to the mouth of the River Volga and the shores
      of the Caspian Sea. Here the Khazars conquered Onogur and
      Bulgar-Turkic tribes who spoke another Turkic dialect. In the
      seventh and eighth centuries, this new empire halted Arab
      expansionism, established contact with Byzantium, and became a
      decisive force between the Caspian Sea and the River Don up to
      the middle of the tenth century. Land cultivation, animal
      husbandry and handicrafts flourished in the empire. Merchants
      traded not only with Byzantium, but also with the Arab-Persian
      world and the distant East. The kagans did not prohibit the
      activities of Christian and Moslem missionaries. Both religions
      maintained places or worship and schools on Khazar land. Out of
      political considerations, however, the kagans and their retinues
      embraced a third great monotheist religion, Judaism. This was to
      avoid pressure on them from the Byzantine Empire and the various
      Arab emirates. The peoples of the Khazar Khanate had a more
      advanced way of life than those of the Central Asian Turkic
      tribes, whose chief occupation was nomadic animal husbandry. The
      level of its agriculture and handicrafts industry matched
      contemporary European standards. In terms of commercial
      development it even exceeded them. However, the empire was a
      loosely organized entity, with the fluctuating numbers of
      subjugated peoples rather than fixed boundaries determining its
      size. The Magyar tribal alliance constituted one such subjugated
      people."- György Balázs, The Magyars. Budapest: Corvina, 1989

      According to the scholar Robert M. Seltzer, “The Judaism of the
      Khazars has been much discussed but the historical evidence is
      very limited. Only the ruling class of the Khazars became
      Jews...”

      Raphael Patai states: “For more than two centuries Judaism was
      the religion of the ruling class while other religions, notably
      Islam, but also Christianity, were extensively practiced among
      the people.”
      Abba Eban has written: “...the rulers of the Khazars apparently
      converted to Judaism at the end of the eighth century, although
      the majority of the population appears to have remained either
      Christian or Moslem.”

      "In 1016 the descendants of the Jewish royal family fled to their
      coreligionists in Spain. Many of the Jewish Khazars, however,
      continued to live in the Crimea.... But the majority of the
      early Khazar proselytes were scattered over the neighboring
      countries, introducing Jewish ideals among their Christian
      neighbors..."
      - Jacob S. Raisin, in Gentile Reactions to Jewish Ideals (New
      York, NY: Philosophical Library, 1953), page 691.

      Stephen Lowe stated;"It appears from contemporary accounts,
      particularly from Arab sources, that the conversion to Judaism
      was largely confined to the ruling class – the Khaqan and his
      immediate côterie. They showed a level of religious toleration
      unusual in a mediaeval society – there seems to have been no
      effort at forcible conversion. The Khazar population included
      many Christians, Muslims, and pagans in their ranks, and the
      major cities contained churches and mosques."

      "In this city (Khazaran-Itil) are Muslims, Christians, Jews and
      pagans. The Jews are the king, his attendants and the Khazars of
      his kind. (footnote: 'i.e., presumably THE RULING TRIBE of
      ‘White Khazars’).'" (Koestler, pp. 15,60)

      "According to Ibn Fadlan, Ibn Dastah, and others, ONLY THE KING
      AND THE GRANDEES WERE FOLLOWERS OF JUDAISM. The rest of the
      Khazars were Christians, Mohammedans, and heathens; and THE JEWS
      WERE IN A GREAT MINORITY." (Jewish Encyclopedia)

      "The conversion of the LEADING KHAZARS to Judaism perhaps took
      place toward 740 C.E." (Jewish Encyclopedia)

      "The most striking characteristic of the Khazars was the apparent
      adoption of Judaism BY THE KHAGAN AND THE GREATER PART OF THE
      RULING CLASS in about 740." (Encyclopedia Britannica)

      "In the town (Atil, the capital of Khazaria) are people of the
      Muslims, more than 10,000, it is said. They have about thirty
      mosques. ... Their king is a Jew.... The Khazars’ smallest
      group is the Jews...though THE KING AND HIS COURT ARE JEWS."
      "Their supreme ruler is a Jew.... The rest of them have a
      religion like the religion of the Turks." (Dunlop, The History
      Of The Khazars, quoting Arab sources)

      "Most Khazars practiced shamanist-Täri religion. In the late
      eighth to early ninth century (but perhaps as late as 861), THE
      KHAZAR RULING ELITE CONVERTED TO JUDAISM. While many questions
      remain concerning this conversion and its pervasiveness, it is
      clear that by accepting Judaism, the ruling class made Khazaria
      a religious neutral zone for its warring Christian and Islamic
      neighbors. Religious tolerance and Khazaria's international
      commercial interests brought Christians, Muslims, Jews, pagans,
      and others to trade and live within the kaghanate."(Russian
      History Encyclopedia)

      Tests of Y-DNA of Ashkenazi Jews in significant part or
      completely confirmed above stated facts.

      Presence of haplogroup R (R1a, R1a1 etc.) in the Ashkenazi
      genetic pool (presented in 12% or more) is seen (in largest
      portion), by some researchers, as supporting evidence of
      possible conversion of part of general population of Khazaria,
      as well as pre-Jewish priesthood (Qam's)/as described in several
      reports/, or due to the great number of Levits among them as well
      as DNA imprint of the Khazar royalty.

      The other religions were not only tolerated, but were an integral
      part of the Khazar structure.
      Thus, the court of Itil (the capital) had seven judges. Two
      judged the Jews (ruling according to Jewish law), two judged the
      Christians (ruling according to Christian law), two judged the
      Mulims (according to the Koran), and one judge judged those who
      had retained the Turkic Shamanistic religion (according to their
      law).

      Khazaria as a nation, collapsed first in 11th and finally in the
      13th century, and it is considered that only a minor part of
      Ashkenazi Jewish population originate from it.
      DNA studies of Ashkenazi Jews confirmed this consideration (up to
      some 17-30% /R1a,R1a1,R1b,G,Q etc../ in total of Ashkenazi Jewish
      population originate from Khazarian Empire).

      Up to some 5% percent of Ashkenazi Jews have a very narrow and
      unique genetic trail which is placed in haplogroup Q (Q1), which
      means that, following genetic/time calculations, a common male
      ancestor lived aprox. 1000 years ago.

      Significant numbers of them have oral traditions to be Levites.
      "Talmudic sources may possibly be interpreted to support the
      notion of differences in the social, religious, and legal
      barriers that relate to the assumption of Cohen and Levite
      status. These include
      descriptions of the possible assumption of Levite
      status other than through patrilineal descent, in a Talmudic
      passage describing a debate regarding the potential
      assignment of Levite status to a man (and his descendants)
      whose father was a non-Jew and whose
      mother was the daughter of a Levite. Such differences
      could have provided the backdrop for the sanctioned
      acceptance of Levite status other than through patrilineal
      descent." (Multiple Origins of Ashkenazi Levites: Y Chromosome
      Evidence for Both Near Eastern and European Ancestries-
      Doron M. Behar, Mark G. Thomas, Karl Skorecki,1 Michael F.
      Hammer, Ekaterina Bulygina, Dror Rosengarten, Abigail L. Jones,
      Karen Held, Vivian Moses, David Goldstein, Neil Bradman, and
      Michael E. Weale Bruce Rappaport Faculty of Medicine and
      Research Institute, Technion and Rambam Medical Center, Haifa,
      Israel; The Centre for Genetic Anthropology and The Centre for
      Population Genetics and Human Health, Department of Biology,
      University College London, London; and Division of
      Biotechnology, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ)
      Therefore, this project is also the Ashkenazi Levite project, as
      well.

      Accounts of the Gokturk and Khazar khaganates suggest that the
      Ashina clan was accorded SACRED, perhaps QUASI-DIVINE STATUS in
      the shamanic religion practiced by the steppe nomads of the
      first millennium CE /The pagan Turks believed that their Ashina
      Qaghans ruled by virtue of heavenly mandated charisma (QUT).
      Since their blood could not be shed, dethroned Qaghans were
      strangled with a silk cord. The investiture ceremonies of the
      Ashina Turks and Khazar Qaghans included ritual
      near-strangulation. As THIS CHARISMA (QUT) RESIDED IN THE ENTIRE
      ROYAL CLAN, the latter exercised a collective sovereignty over
      their realms resulting in frequent succession struggles/.
      (http://au.encarta.msn.com)

      Peter B. Golden states; "The ruling house and core tribes of the
      Khazar empire did not share the same tribal or, in many
      instances, ethnic origins as those of the Qaganate’s diverse
      subject population. The Khazar rulers were heirs of the Türk
      qaganal charisma. Although aspects of sacral rule and dual
      kingship can be seen in the Türk and other Inner Asian
      nomad-based empires, it was only in Khazaria that the Qagan
      became a sacralised, tabuised figure. This transformation
      occurred in the 9th century and may reflect the influence of the
      Ors, the Khwârazmian-Iranian guard of the Qagan and the chief
      minister drawn from their ranks".

      Haplogroup Q (Q1b) is one of the basic haplogroups of the
      Mongolic race, and it is almost absent from European population,
      where is represented mainly in Jewish community/and communities
      with Jewish and Viking ancestry (please
      check;http://home.swipnet.se/~w-14723/birka/birke010.html).

      HAPLOGROUP Q (Q1b) IS SOLE REPRESENTATION OF THE MONGOLIC
      /CENTRAL-NORTH ASIAN/ RACE WITHIN ASHKENAZI GENETIC POOL.
      THIS IS ALSO ASHKENAZI HAPLOGROUP WITH THE LEVITE ANCESTRY (OTHER
      IS R1a1-THE MOST COMMON NON-ISRAELITE/SLAVIC HAPLOGROUP).

      In circumstances when we still don't have any old DNA samples
      /and that cannot be expected in foreseeable future/, unique
      historical event of the Khazarian (Turko-Mongolic Ashina)
      royalty and nobility /and priesthood/ conversion to Judaism
      (this event was not recorded and not known in any other nation
      including any of 25 or more vassal nations or tribes of Khazars)
      give us opportunity to scientifically track down and uncover most
      possible descendants /KHANs/ of this particular branch of the
      Ashina IMPERIAL RACE /term used by L.Gumilev/.



      Regards,

      Alfred Krupa prof.
      Croatia




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    • Dave Howard
      Bob, You have asked a great question! I need to update the graphic on the front page. Now that the SNP M378 marker has been discovered we are one step away
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 14, 2009
        Bob,

        You have asked a great question!

        I need to update the graphic on the front page.

        Now that the SNP M378 marker has been discovered we are one step away
        from the Mongolians.

        I had assumed that Attila the Hun epitomized Mongolians in Europe prior
        to the year 1000.

        However, it is not that clear that he was a Mongolian. He may have just
        been what is today a Hungarian, or an ancestor of the Hungarians.
        Attila, if he actually existed, lived about 500 CE.

        While our yDNA does go back to Mongolia we now know it was filtered
        through a nomadic tribe that roamed through Afghanistan and India.

        I will have to replace Attila with the face of a nomadic tribesman.

        Thanks for the note.

        Dave





        --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <Vick@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dave,
        >
        >
        >
        > Did you read that Attila the Hun was Q or are you just making a
        point?
        >
        >
        >
        > Thanks Bob
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com]
        On
        > Behalf Of Dave Howard
        > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 7:55 PM
        > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Levites?
        >
        >
        >
        > Adam,
        >
        > We have put up some scientific research papers in the Files section of
        > this website. Click on Files to the left and you will see there is a
        > file with the title Behar et al 2003.pdf . Download that file and take
        a
        > look. You will see that they identified Ashkenazi Levites as being
        about
        > 51% R1a1 (under the old classification system). The Cohanim are mostly
        > J. As far as I know there is no specific yDNA figured out for the
        > Levites even though it was a honor that passed from father to son,
        > normally.
        >
        > I need to change the pictures on our home page and eventually I will.
        We
        > now know that we are probably not related to Atilla the Hun. He was
        not
        > Q1b as far as we know. He was more like just plain old Q.
        >
        > My family has a Levite tradition as do some of our other members.
        > However, I have learned that the righteous daughter of a righteous
        > Levite could pass Levitness on to her son under provisions of the
        > Talmud.
        >
        > Getting a woman in the line does make it a bit confusing.
        >
        > Dave Howard
        >
        > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com,
        > "adam_bratter" adam_bratter@
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Question:
        > >
        > > Is there a specific genetic sequence like the Cohen Modal Haplotype
        > which denotes Levites?
        > > The home page of this group has a picture of both Atilla and a
        > Levite...how would Levites be of the Q Haplogroup, a non-middle
        eastern
        > group?
        > >
        >
      • Dave Howard
        Prof Krupa, Thanks for your very interesting post. Alas, I do not believe the Khazarian Princess theory works for me. I am a member of the Horowitz family that
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 14, 2009
          Prof Krupa,

          Thanks for your very interesting post.

          Alas, I do not believe the Khazarian Princess theory works for me.

          I am a member of the Horowitz family that is a Rabbinical family that
          goes back to Spain at least to the year about 950. Our family was the
          Ha-Levi ("The Levite") family in Spain until they fled the inquisition
          and wound up settling in a little city named Horovice just outside of
          Prague in the Czech Republic in about 1500. They did build the Pinkus
          Synagogue in Prague and became known as Horowitz in Yiddish named for
          the little city they came from.

          There is a Horowitz Family surname project at Family Tree DNA and while
          we do not have a lot of participants I am finding that they are
          separating into several different Haplogroups - The largest group is
          R1a1, I have a couple of Q1b and one J1.

          My good friend, Itzhak Epstein, has a Beneveniste, Horowitz, & Epstein
          surname project running and he claims that the true blue Horowitz
          Haplogrup is R1a1. He does not consider me to be a real Horowitz due to
          my Q.

          While I have my paper record back to Henoch Horowitz born about 1745 in
          Rezekne, Latvia (former Vitebsk Gubernia in the Russian Empire).

          It was certainly proper for a young man who wanted to become a Rabbi to
          take his mother's maiden name if it was a Rabbinical surname. Did this
          happen in my family between 1500 and 1745?

          Or is Itzhak is wrong and I am the mainstream Horowitz and I got my Q
          DNA before 1500?

          If my family picked up Haplogroup Q prior to 1500 it would have been in
          Spain. But then how did I link up with you? The probabillities get to be
          pretty high that you and I share a common relative about 800 years ago.

          Rebekah Canada might be able to help us. She is attending the Group
          Administrators Conference in Houston today. I was going to go but I had
          health problems. I am anxious to hear what will come from that meeting.
          Bennett Greenspan and I are to talk on a phone call in about a week.

          Thanks again for your interesting insights and comments.

          Dave
        • KRUPA
          Dave, I must ask You to read again my DNA project background. After fall of Khazaria, which was not in one day, that was few centuries long process, the ruling
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 15, 2009
            Dave,

            I must ask You to read again my DNA project background.

            After fall of Khazaria, which was not in one day, that was few
            centuries long process, the ruling class split. Main part
            remained in South Russia,Ukraine,Poland etc..,much smaller
            number fled to Spain.

            Conversion of Khazars was large scale project led by Levits
            invited for that purpose.

            We link perfectly on time scale and place,as well as with other
            Levits;Brandt,Frank,Friedman,Kushner,Levy,Liebman,Loebman,Marks,Sherman,Zwick
            etc.

            And "adoption" of Levite status /or acceptance into/ after 10th
            century and in Khazaria only, really is not likely event.

            What to say then to my Cohanim match in 67 markers list?

            Certain "circles" prefer "white-european" R1a1, much more than
            any Q.
            I have noticed that,as a fact, on number of occasions.
            But that is completely different subject.

            R1a1 is indeed a haplogroup with largest number of Levit claims,
            but that is "everywhere" haplogroup, including Middle East.

            We shall see.

            Regards,


            Alfred



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          • Lloyd Friedman
            I am Friedman (Hungary) on my father s side and Levy (Grodno) on my Mother s. Q1b Paternal. K1a1b1a Maternal. ... From: KRUPA To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 15, 2009
              
              I am Friedman (Hungary) on my father's side and Levy (Grodno) on my Mother's. Q1b Paternal. K1a1b1a Maternal.
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: KRUPA
              Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 5:01 AM
              Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Levites - Khazarian Princess

              Dave,

              I must ask You to read again my DNA project background.

              After fall of Khazaria, which was not in one day, that was few
              centuries long process, the ruling class split. Main part
              remained in South Russia,Ukraine, Poland etc..,much smaller
              number fled to Spain.

              Conversion of Khazars was large scale project led by Levits
              invited for that purpose.

              We link perfectly on time scale and place,as well as with other
              Levits;Brandt, Frank,Friedman, Kushner,Levy, Liebman,Loebman, Marks,Sherman, Zwick
              etc.

              And "adoption" of Levite status /or acceptance into/ after 10th
              century and in Khazaria only, really is not likely event.

              What to say then to my Cohanim match in 67 markers list?

              Certain "circles" prefer "white-european" R1a1, much more than
              any Q.
              I have noticed that,as a fact, on number of occasions.
              But that is completely different subject.

              R1a1 is indeed a haplogroup with largest number of Levit claims,
              but that is "everywhere" haplogroup, including Middle East.

              We shall see.

              Regards,

              Alfred

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            • KRUPA
              Dear Lloyd, I know Your case from our DNA matches list. Hungary is country very important for Khazar and Khazar Jews history /Kabars case, first dynasty
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 15, 2009
                Dear Lloyd,

                I know Your case from our DNA matches list.
                Hungary is country very important for Khazar and Khazar Jews
                history /Kabars case, first dynasty election etc../, and Khazars
                was always highly appreciated trough Hungarian history.
                We have people, Jews from Hungary, who assumed Khazar origin
                before DNA tests occured.

                Regards,

                Alfred

                Citiram Lloyd Friedman <lloydon@...>:

                > I am Friedman (Hungary) on my father's side and Levy (Grodno) on my
                > Mother's. Q1b Paternal. K1a1b1a Maternal.
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: KRUPA
                > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 5:01 AM
                > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Levites - Khazarian Princess
                >
                >
                > Dave,
                >
                > I must ask You to read again my DNA project background.
                >
                > After fall of Khazaria, which was not in one day, that was few
                > centuries long process, the ruling class split. Main part
                > remained in South Russia,Ukraine,Poland etc..,much smaller
                > number fled to Spain.
                >
                > Conversion of Khazars was large scale project led by Levits
                > invited for that purpose.
                >
                > We link perfectly on time scale and place,as well as with other
                >
                > Levits;Brandt,Frank,Friedman,Kushner,Levy,Liebman,Loebman,Marks,Sherman,Zwick
                > etc.
                >
                > And "adoption" of Levite status /or acceptance into/ after 10th
                > century and in Khazaria only, really is not likely event.
                >
                > What to say then to my Cohanim match in 67 markers list?
                >
                > Certain "circles" prefer "white-european" R1a1, much more than
                > any Q.
                > I have noticed that,as a fact, on number of occasions.
                > But that is completely different subject.
                >
                > R1a1 is indeed a haplogroup with largest number of Levit claims,
                > but that is "everywhere" haplogroup, including Middle East.
                >
                > We shall see.
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > Alfred
                >
                > ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
                > Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                > Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                > http://shopping.tportal.hr
                >
                >
                >


                ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
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              • Dave Howard
                Where can I find your report?
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 18, 2009
                  Where can I find your report?




                  --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dave,
                  >
                  > I must ask You to read again my DNA project background.
                  >
                  > After fall of Khazaria, which was not in one day, that was few
                  > centuries long process, the ruling class split. Main part
                  > remained in South Russia,Ukraine,Poland etc..,much smaller
                  > number fled to Spain.
                  >
                  > Conversion of Khazars was large scale project led by Levits
                  > invited for that purpose.
                  >
                  > We link perfectly on time scale and place,as well as with other
                  > Levits;Brandt,Frank,Friedman,Kushner,Levy,Liebman,Loebman,Marks,Sherman,Zwick
                  > etc.
                  >
                  > And "adoption" of Levite status /or acceptance into/ after 10th
                  > century and in Khazaria only, really is not likely event.
                  >
                  > What to say then to my Cohanim match in 67 markers list?
                  >
                  > Certain "circles" prefer "white-european" R1a1, much more than
                  > any Q.
                  > I have noticed that,as a fact, on number of occasions.
                  > But that is completely different subject.
                  >
                  > R1a1 is indeed a haplogroup with largest number of Levit claims,
                  > but that is "everywhere" haplogroup, including Middle East.
                  >
                  > We shall see.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  >
                  > Alfred
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
                  > Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                  > Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                  > http://shopping.tportal.hr
                  >
                • KRUPA
                  Which one? ... Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma! http://shopping.tportal.hr
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 18, 2009
                    Which one?


                    Citiram Dave Howard <dshoward@...>:

                    > Where can I find your report?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Dave,
                    >>
                    >> I must ask You to read again my DNA project background.
                    >>
                    >> After fall of Khazaria, which was not in one day, that was few
                    >> centuries long process, the ruling class split. Main part
                    >> remained in South Russia,Ukraine,Poland etc..,much smaller
                    >> number fled to Spain.
                    >>
                    >> Conversion of Khazars was large scale project led by Levits
                    >> invited for that purpose.
                    >>
                    >> We link perfectly on time scale and place,as well as with other
                    >> Levits;Brandt,Frank,Friedman,Kushner,Levy,Liebman,Loebman,Marks,Sherman,Zwick
                    >> etc.
                    >>
                    >> And "adoption" of Levite status /or acceptance into/ after 10th
                    >> century and in Khazaria only, really is not likely event.
                    >>
                    >> What to say then to my Cohanim match in 67 markers list?
                    >>
                    >> Certain "circles" prefer "white-european" R1a1, much more than
                    >> any Q.
                    >> I have noticed that,as a fact, on number of occasions.
                    >> But that is completely different subject.
                    >>
                    >> R1a1 is indeed a haplogroup with largest number of Levit claims,
                    >> but that is "everywhere" haplogroup, including Middle East.
                    >>
                    >> We shall see.
                    >>
                    >> Regards,
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Alfred
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
                    >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                    >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                    >> http://shopping.tportal.hr
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
                    Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                    Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                    http://shopping.tportal.hr
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