Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Khazar yDNA Makeup - A Great Project Thate Needs to be Done
- Thanks so much for all your research, Dave, not only on this but on other DNA questions.There is a conflict between Alfred's insistence that Khazars were Mongolian and your own personal description. I suspect that red hair and light-colored eyes are rare among Mongolians. You can't both be right.As to whether the Khazars "merged" with the Magyars, I have never read that it was anything quite that concrete. The Khazars indeed left some traces in Hungary. Whether this was a mass movement is quite another matter. Since so many of the Khazars were Muslim, how could it come to be that Judaism survived among the Khazarian transplants, but Islam did not?Since the Khazars did not chronicle what became of themselves, we can only guess. They diverged strongly from the people among whom they lived, who kept track of every ruler, every harvest and every battle. The Khazars had no written language. This alone would have made their survival as Jews close to miraculous. They could have left records in Hebrew, true, but we have no evidence that they did.I'm afraid I remain a skeptic.I'm following this discussion with a great deal of interest. We are lucky that so many well-informed people share our genetic heritage.BarryBarry Zwick in Los AngelesIn a message dated 6/18/2008 11:29:29 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, dshoward@... writes:
I have searched and searched and as far as I can find there is no
study that attempts to define the yDNA makeup of the Khazarians.
I have found several references that say this would be an excellent
Additionally, when Khazar crumbled as a nation it merged with the
Maygars and many of those people are in Hungary today. Many Hungarian
Jewish people are modern descendants of those Khazars. There are still
place names and Khazarian words in place in those areas.
Khazarian apparently were like the inhabitants of the Caucasus
mountains area, i.e. stocky build, light skin, red hair and light
Forgetting about Haplogroup Q, I know many Ashkenazi Jewish people who
have that build, skin, hair and eye color. In fact, that is what I
--- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, Barryzwick@. .. wrote:
> Hello, Comrades,
> I have been under the impression that, since we have no Khazar DNA
> database, we must rely on matches with neighboring peoples to
> there is a demonstrable relationship between us and the Khazars.
> Those neighboring peoples include Georgians, Azeris, Armenians and
> Does Haplotype Q occur frequently among these people? Does anyone know?
> Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
> In a message dated 6/15/2008 1:23:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> mladen.krupa@ ... writes:
> I am glad to see this further explanation from Dave.
> Well, I wanted to say that if we dont share mutation for Q1b it
> will not disapprove Khazarian origin.
> That is because it is normal that always there was a mixture of
> population, including mixture of Q's (some will share this
> "additional" mutation, some will not).
> But, also as pointed by Dave earlier and now, and me somwhere in
> the middle, we cannot look only on SNP's as they emerged
> thousands of years of ago. Haplotypes will show us more recent
> connection, even if we will not share mutation for Q1b
> I strongly believe that our Y-chromosome is of the Gok-Turk and
> then Khazarian origin, and from maternal side we will share
> Israelite origin (that is why we (some of us) have Levit
> I will conclude this communication for today with one also
> earlier mentioned fact: we are the only representatives of
> Mongolic Race in Ashkenazi. There is no others; C,O..
> Just we-the Q's.
> It is very significant fact, as this truth separate us from any
> Middle Eastern, or European group or race.
> And also (as pointed earlier) because rulers of the Gok-Turk and
> Khazarian Empire (Jewish Converts) are represented as people of
> Mongolic Race. That exclude R1a, and R1a1, as well as other R's
> as second non-israelite haplogroup.
> It is just a leading, but I find all this far too much similar to
> be mere coincidence.
> And for Mr.Biondo's interesting writing; we are all descendants
> of people from Eastern African soil.
> Citiram Dave Howard <_dshoward@. .._ (mailto:dshoward@ ...) >:
> > Prof. Krupa is correct that there is evidence that there was a
> > Khazarian conversion and some of their DNA may have entered the
> > Ashkenazi gene
> > pool.
> > This is not inconsistent with my point. We have no disagreement.
> > My point is that the Khazars are not necessarily the source of our
> > Haplogroup-Q Y-Chromosome. That they may have provided some of
> > does not mean that they are also the source of our yDNA.
> > If Haplogroup-Q yDNA was in the Khazarian group it will
> > be interesting to see if they had the M378 SNP mutation. It will be
> > interesting to see if we really have it as well.
> > One does suspect the Khazars as a possible source in that our common
> > ancestor lived within the last 1,000 years. However, his
> > or may not coincide with the Khazarian period.
> > That we may all share a common ancestor within the last 1,000
> > based on our STRs and not our SNPs. I believe this is what Prof. Kupa
> > means by "New DNA" vs. "Old DNA." The STR mutations are recent
> > Our SNP mutations took place thousands of years ago.
> > You may find the Khazarian links Prof. Krupa provided to be
> > as I
> > did.
> > At the same time make sure you read the excellent Wikipedia article
> > that discusses the Khazars including the controversy caused by the
> > book The Thirteenth Tribe as well as the current anti-semitic theory
> > that is popular among Arab states today.
> > _http://en.wikipedia http://en. http://_
> (http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Khazars)
> > <_http://en.wikipedia http://en. http://_
> (http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Khazars) >
> > Here is a brief snippet from the Wikipedia article. (I strongly
> > recommend reading the whole article at the link. The referenced
> > footnotes are in the full article.)
> > The National Academy of Science study referred to below is
> > our "Files" section entitled "Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Easterners
> > same yDNA pool.pdf." I encourage you to look it over.
> > DNA Evidence
> > Most Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, do not exhibit the oriental
> > features of the Khazars, who were likely of Central Asian Turkish
> > origin. Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have
> > also discredited the Khazar origin theory for the vast majority of
> > Jews, including the Ashkenazi.
> > A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that "The
> > results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish
> > communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended
> > from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that
> > most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from
> > neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."
> > . Researchers express surprise at the remarkable genetic
> > they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora has become
> > dispersed around the world. Contradicting the "mongrel" theory, DNA
> > demonstrated substantially less inter-marriage among Jews over the
> > last 3000 years than found in other populations.
> > "The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute
> > theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of
> > converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the
> > Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism."  
> > Morever, "The analysis provides genetic witness that these
> > have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological identity
> > separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively little
> > intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries." Id. And
> > another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the
> > yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities are
> > closely related to Syrians and Palestinians[ closely related to
> > are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the
> > Middle East some four thousand years ago. Id.
> > This study found that "The extremely close affinity of Jewish and
> > non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports the
> > hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin.", as does the
> > mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of at least 40% of the current Ashkenazi
> > population.[ population.[ <WBR>19] So although Khazars could possibly
> > into the modern Jewish population as we know it today, it is unlikely
> > that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern
> > Dave
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Khazars used Turkic Runes, and later Hebrew.
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