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Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara

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  • KRUPA
    Rebekah, You said; We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the Hazara got
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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      Rebekah,

      You said;
      "We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers
      about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the
      Hazara got their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any
      group that traces their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000
      years should have some C."

      Questions;
      1. You think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara got
      their C from the Mongol hoards.
      That if fine with me.
      But You don't think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara
      got their Q from the Mongol hoards, as well?
      Or You do?

      2. You agree that any group that traces their ancestry to
      Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.
      How many C we can find in Turkey?
      Turkic peoples definitely trace origin in Mongolia in last 1500
      years. Historic fact.
      Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?


      Alfred
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    • Rebekah Canada
      Yes. There are many different types of Q in Anatolia. I think that Dave placed a paper about Anatolia in the files. On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:55 AM, KRUPA
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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        Yes. There are many different types of Q in Anatolia. I think that
        Dave placed a paper about Anatolia in the files.

        On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:55 AM, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ka.t-com.hr> wrote:
        ..
        > Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
        >
        > Alfred

        --
        Peace and Light,
        Rebekah
      • Bob Vick
        Rebekah, When one looks at the detailed numbers, if they are available in depth , do they point to the central Asia/Siberian regions in reverse mutations? Or
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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          Rebekah,

           

           When one looks at the detailed numbers, “if they are available in depth”, do they point to the central Asia/Siberian regions in reverse mutations? Or are we simply using higher % of population & calling it founder/origin.

           

           My continual question is did Q survive in these remote areas because they missed invasions & disease? When one looks at Q in the Americas it was surly prolific until the introduction of European disease & war. When one considers the 100% Q in the Americas & the +/- 4% in the rest of the “tested” world, one has to consider democide in corruption of analysis.

          http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

           

           The Mr. Lee DNA of Scandinavia is the only ancient Q DNA I see in Y-Search; the rest is a 400 – 600 year separation to my numbers. With Q & R starting about the same time, one has to consider why Q is a lesser %.

           

          Bob the generalist.

           

           

           


          From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
          Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:40 AM
          To: Q (Ashkenazi Group)
          Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Sindhi and Hazara

           

          Hi,

           

          The Sindhi and Hazara samples come from Sengupta 2006. I have placed the new YCC 2008 names after the percentages. If we are going to call Q1b Mongol because it is found in the Hazara then we would have to say the same thing of all these other Haplogroups.

           

          The Hazara are:

          n=22

          C3    (M217)             10 45.45% C3

          R1b2b (M073)              6 27.27% R1b1b1

          Q1    (M120)              1  4.55% Q1a1

          Q1a   (M378)              1  4.55% Q1b

          I1c2  (M170\223\379)      1  4.55% I2b2

          J2a   (M410)              1  4.55% J2a

          O3    (M122)              2  9.09% O3

           

          The Sindhi are:

          n= 21

          J1   (M267)   1  4.76% J1

          J2a  (M410)   4 19.05% J2a

          J2b2 (M241)   2  9.52% J2b2

          L3   (M357)   1  4.76% L3

          Q1a  (M378)   1  4.76% Q1b

          R1a1 (M017)  11 52.38% R1a1

          R2   (M124)   1  4.76% R2

           

          With the exceptions of having L3, with a noticeably low level of J1, and an absence of R1b the Sindhi do resemble the Haplogroups of an Ashkenazic group. I will have to compare haplotypes. Perhaps this is flow along the silk road.

           

          Sadly, with this small sample, we can not make diversity comparisons.

           

           

          Regards,

          Rebekah

        • Alessandro Felice Biondo
          Alfred, ... the answer is in Cinnioglu: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia. On a total of 523 samples there are: C*-M216 2 samples C3-M217
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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            Alfred,

            You said:

            > How many C we can find in Turkey?
            > Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?

            the answer is in Cinnioglu: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata
            in Anatolia. On a total of 523 samples there are:

            C*-M216 2 samples
            C3-M217 5 samples
            N*-M233 15 samples
            N3a-M178 5 samples
            O3-M122 1 sample
            Q*-M242 9 samples
            Q2-MM25 1 sample

            The 9 samples with Q*-M242 exhibit a high haplotype diversity: 1
            sample (number 338) is identical to "our" Q, other 3 are almost equal
            to us, other 5 (6 including the Q2-M25) are quite far from us. Again
            what is interesting in Turkey is the presence of:
            - high haplotype diversity of the Q's;
            - some presence of haplogroups from East and North Asia: 20 N (M233
            and M178) the double of Q*; 7 C (M216 and M217) almost the same
            numbers of Q, 1 O of difficult interpretation.

            Alessandro.



            --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
            >
            > Rebekah,
            >
            > You said;
            > "We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers
            > about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the
            > Hazara got their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any
            > group that traces their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000
            > years should have some C."
            >
            > Questions;
            > 1. You think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara got
            > their C from the Mongol hoards.
            > That if fine with me.
            > But You don't think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara
            > got their Q from the Mongol hoards, as well?
            > Or You do?
            >
            > 2. You agree that any group that traces their ancestry to
            > Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.
            > How many C we can find in Turkey?
            > Turkic peoples definitely trace origin in Mongolia in last 1500
            > years. Historic fact.
            > Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
            >
            >
            > Alfred
            > ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l
            ----------------------
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            >
          • KRUPA
            Allesandro, Isn t it interesting? This diversity of the Asiatic haplogroups just confirms history of this people of Turkic stock, and historically recorded
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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              Allesandro,

              Isn't it interesting?
              This diversity of the Asiatic haplogroups just confirms history
              of this people of Turkic stock, and historically recorded
              Central/North Asiatic origin.
              Khazars was also people of Turkic stock(first as part of GokTurk
              Khaganate and later as indenpendent state), but it really
              appears that only ruling class converted to Judaism.
              It should be noted (as we see) that it can be expected that
              current Turkey inherited more reacher heritage then Khazaria.
              Turkey is final stage of several earlier Turkic empires,
              therefore this more richer genetic legacy in modern Turkey.
              Modern Turkey is also based on territory of earlier Eastern
              Roman Empire (Byzantinum).
              Khazaria was stable state with organised religion, law system and
              military force, while those kingdoms emerged and collapsed.
              Ashina was first and founding Dynasty of Turks, remained in
              Khazaria.
              Other Dynasties followed.

              Alfred


              Citiram Alessandro Felice Biondo <alefbiondo@...>:

              > Alfred,
              >
              > You said:
              >
              >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
              >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
              >
              > the answer is in Cinnioglu: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata
              > in Anatolia. On a total of 523 samples there are:
              >
              > C*-M216 2 samples
              > C3-M217 5 samples
              > N*-M233 15 samples
              > N3a-M178 5 samples
              > O3-M122 1 sample
              > Q*-M242 9 samples
              > Q2-MM25 1 sample
              >
              > The 9 samples with Q*-M242 exhibit a high haplotype diversity: 1
              > sample (number 338) is identical to "our" Q, other 3 are almost equal
              > to us, other 5 (6 including the Q2-M25) are quite far from us. Again
              > what is interesting in Turkey is the presence of:
              > - high haplotype diversity of the Q's;
              > - some presence of haplogroups from East and North Asia: 20 N (M233
              > and M178) the double of Q*; 7 C (M216 and M217) almost the same
              > numbers of Q, 1 O of difficult interpretation.
              >
              > Alessandro.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Rebekah,
              >>
              >> You said;
              >> "We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers
              >> about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the
              >> Hazara got their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any
              >> group that traces their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000
              >> years should have some C."
              >>
              >> Questions;
              >> 1. You think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara got
              >> their C from the Mongol hoards.
              >> That if fine with me.
              >> But You don't think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara
              >> got their Q from the Mongol hoards, as well?
              >> Or You do?
              >>
              >> 2. You agree that any group that traces their ancestry to
              >> Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.
              >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
              >> Turkic peoples definitely trace origin in Mongolia in last 1500
              >> years. Historic fact.
              >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
              >>
              >>
              >> Alfred
              >> ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l
              > ----------------------
              >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
              >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
              >> http://shopping.tportal.hr
              >>
              >
              >
              >


              ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
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            • NADENE GOLDFOOT
              Alfred, You are classified as Q1b. We are Q1. How did you get the b? How is that different? I m just going for an upgrade from 25 to 37 markers now and am
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                Alfred,
                You are classified as Q1b.  We are Q1.  How did you get the b?  How is that different?  I'm just going for an upgrade from 25 to 37 markers now and am curious.  My grandfather was from "Russia", born about 1872, and was Jewish. 
                Nadene
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: KRUPA
                Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:14 AM
                Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Sindhi and Hazara

                Rebekah,

                We will call Q1b Mongol, because whole Q is Mongol.But it is
                interesting that this peoples are considered to be originaly
                from Mongolia. Presence of Q, O and C confirms this.
                Other comes "by the way". The Silk Road of course.
                That is my point from very beginning (that is why I am saying
                "recent" Asiatic origin, Khazaria was on one end of this way).
                And it is very interesting emerging similarities with Hazara,
                Sindhi and Ashkenazi (percentage of Q's) and presence of Q1b in
                particular.
                If we say similarities between possible K-Hazars, Hazara and
                Sindhi sounds more normal, isnt it?

                I have Q1b in exact matches list,as well in further mutations. I
                see Q1b in others lists as well.

                Rebekah, I just want to say that now we have more and more clear
                and elaborated picture about path of our ancestors and who they
                was.
                Nothing is final, naturally!

                Your weight is on biological side (and You contribution and
                knowledge is huge!), my perhaps on comparison of facts,
                particulary historic and personals.

                Alfred

                Citiram Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@ gmail.com>:

                > Hi,
                >
                > The Sindhi and Hazara samples come from Sengupta 2006. I have placed the new
                > YCC 2008 <http://www.familytr eedna.com/ pdf/2008- HaploChart_ GR_lores. pdf>names
                > after the percentages. If we are going to call Q1b Mongol because it
                > is found in the Hazara then we would have to say the same thing of all these
                > other Haplogroups.
                >
                > The Hazara are:
                > n=22
                > C3 (M217) 10 45.45% C3
                > R1b2b (M073) 6 27.27% R1b1b1
                > Q1 (M120) 1 4.55% Q1a1
                > Q1a (M378) 1 4.55% Q1b
                > I1c2 (M170\223\379) 1 4.55% I2b2
                > J2a (M410) 1 4.55% J2a
                > O3 (M122) 2 9.09% O3
                >
                > The Sindhi are:
                > n= 21
                > J1 (M267) 1 4.76% J1
                > J2a (M410) 4 19.05% J2a
                > J2b2 (M241) 2 9.52% J2b2
                > L3 (M357) 1 4.76% L3
                > Q1a (M378) 1 4.76% Q1b
                > R1a1 (M017) 11 52.38% R1a1
                > R2 (M124) 1 4.76% R2
                >
                > With the exceptions of having L3, with a noticeably low level of J1, and an
                > absence of R1b the Sindhi do resemble the Haplogroups of an Ashkenazic
                > group. I will have to compare haplotypes. Perhaps this is flow along the
                > silk road.
                >
                > Sadly, with this small sample, we can not make diversity comparisons.
                >
                >
                > Regards,
                > Rebekah
                >

                ------------ --------- - T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ------------ --------- -
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              • Alessandro Biondo
                Alfred, what I see it is exactly the contrary: - as you write, all the time we have a well documented gene influx from Central and Northern Asia and Mongolia,
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                  Alfred,

                  what I see it is exactly the contrary:

                  - as you write, all the time we have a well documented gene influx
                  from Central and Northern Asia and Mongolia, like the Turkish invasion
                  of Anatolia (but the same is true for the Former Sovietic Central
                  Asias republics, for the Kalmyks in the Caucasus, for the Hazaras, and
                  so on), we have also at least one fraction of the wealth of
                  haplogroups you can find in those geographical area, not only one. And
                  in the Ashkenazi people this wealthness of asiatic haplogroup doesn't
                  exist.
                  - to affirm that ONLY the Khazarian ruling class, and ALL the
                  Khazarian ruling class, converted to Judaism, maybe it is true, even
                  if these two are two strongly demanding and tight conditions, put
                  together. But to affirm also that the ruling class was only Q, and
                  that all the Q were in the ruling class (and that the others than the
                  rulers were all different than Q), is far from any, proven historical
                  fact: for what it is known about archaelogy, history and genetic, in
                  the history we never had such a genetic "purity", not even at the dawn
                  of the humanity. And the habits of the nomadic people of the steppe,
                  that were always genetically mixed (as demonstrated by the genetic
                  evidence, even of the tested human remains in ancient burials), and
                  where the strongest was the ruler (and the strongest may belong to any
                  haplogroup, he has simply to be the strongest), offer no support to
                  this "genetic purity". The evidence from other Turkic-Mongolic people
                  for sure does not support this "genetic purity" of any class, rulers
                  or commoners, among them.

                  Alessandro.



                  --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Allesandro,
                  >
                  > Isn't it interesting?
                  > This diversity of the Asiatic haplogroups just confirms history
                  > of this people of Turkic stock, and historically recorded
                  > Central/North Asiatic origin.
                  > Khazars was also people of Turkic stock(first as part of GokTurk
                  > Khaganate and later as indenpendent state), but it really
                  > appears that only ruling class converted to Judaism.
                  > It should be noted (as we see) that it can be expected that
                  > current Turkey inherited more reacher heritage then Khazaria.
                  > Turkey is final stage of several earlier Turkic empires,
                  > therefore this more richer genetic legacy in modern Turkey.
                  > Modern Turkey is also based on territory of earlier Eastern
                  > Roman Empire (Byzantinum).
                  > Khazaria was stable state with organised religion, law system and
                  > military force, while those kingdoms emerged and collapsed.
                  > Ashina was first and founding Dynasty of Turks, remained in
                  > Khazaria.
                  > Other Dynasties followed.
                  >
                  > Alfred
                  >
                  >
                  > Citiram Alessandro Felice Biondo <alefbiondo@...>:
                  >
                  > > Alfred,
                  > >
                  > > You said:
                  > >
                  > >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                  > >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                  > >
                  > > the answer is in Cinnioglu: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata
                  > > in Anatolia. On a total of 523 samples there are:
                  > >
                  > > C*-M216 2 samples
                  > > C3-M217 5 samples
                  > > N*-M233 15 samples
                  > > N3a-M178 5 samples
                  > > O3-M122 1 sample
                  > > Q*-M242 9 samples
                  > > Q2-MM25 1 sample
                  > >
                  > > The 9 samples with Q*-M242 exhibit a high haplotype diversity: 1
                  > > sample (number 338) is identical to "our" Q, other 3 are almost equal
                  > > to us, other 5 (6 including the Q2-M25) are quite far from us. Again
                  > > what is interesting in Turkey is the presence of:
                  > > - high haplotype diversity of the Q's;
                  > > - some presence of haplogroups from East and North Asia: 20 N (M233
                  > > and M178) the double of Q*; 7 C (M216 and M217) almost the same
                  > > numbers of Q, 1 O of difficult interpretation.
                  > >
                  > > Alessandro.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@> wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> Rebekah,
                  > >>
                  > >> You said;
                  > >> "We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers
                  > >> about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the
                  > >> Hazara got their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any
                  > >> group that traces their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000
                  > >> years should have some C."
                  > >>
                  > >> Questions;
                  > >> 1. You think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara got
                  > >> their C from the Mongol hoards.
                  > >> That if fine with me.
                  > >> But You don't think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara
                  > >> got their Q from the Mongol hoards, as well?
                  > >> Or You do?
                  > >>
                  > >> 2. You agree that any group that traces their ancestry to
                  > >> Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.
                  > >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                  > >> Turkic peoples definitely trace origin in Mongolia in last 1500
                  > >> years. Historic fact.
                  > >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> Alfred
                  > >> ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l
                  > > ----------------------
                  > >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                  > >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                  > >> http://shopping.tportal.hr
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l
                  ----------------------
                  > Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                  > Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                  > http://shopping.tportal.hr
                  >
                • Alessandro Biondo
                  Alfred, no needs to use capital letters or dry words. If something is misunderstood, it happen sometimes, we need only to explain again our thought, in the
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                    Alfred,

                    no needs to use capital letters or dry words. If something is
                    misunderstood, it happen sometimes, we need only to explain again our
                    thought, in the interest of the group.
                    I understand very well your thought, but it is also true that all the
                    data we actually know about every population with a proven Turkic-
                    Mongolic genetic influence (for example Turkish, central asian Turks,
                    Kalmyks, Hazaras, but also centuries old mummies from Central and
                    North Asia) are talking us of a bunch of haplogroups not present
                    today in the Ashkenazi and European gene-pool. This is exactly what
                    the known data told us. That's exactly what I tried to comment.

                    Alessandro.


                    --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Allesandro,
                    >
                    > Please check earlier communication.
                    >
                    > I have NEVER STATED THAT I OR ANYBODY ELSE ASSUME THAT RULING
                    > CLASS OF KHAZARIA WAS CONSISTED ONLY OF Q'S.
                    >
                    > On contrary I assume that both Q and R1a (R1a1), as well others,
                    > was present in Ashina genetic pool.
                    >
                    > But, as for Q, case is most easier to test and prove.
                    >
                    > As for representation of rulers only with Mongolic features that
                    > is the fact, but it don't need to be absolute proof.
                    >
                    > Do You understand me now?
                    >
                    > Alfred
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Citiram Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@...>:
                    >
                    > > Alfred,
                    > >
                    > > what I see it is exactly the contrary:
                    > >
                    > > - as you write, all the time we have a well documented gene influx
                    > > from Central and Northern Asia and Mongolia, like the Turkish
                    invasion
                    > > of Anatolia (but the same is true for the Former Sovietic Central
                    > > Asias republics, for the Kalmyks in the Caucasus, for the
                    Hazaras, and
                    > > so on), we have also at least one fraction of the wealth of
                    > > haplogroups you can find in those geographical area, not only
                    one. And
                    > > in the Ashkenazi people this wealthness of asiatic haplogroup
                    doesn't
                    > > exist.
                    > > - to affirm that ONLY the Khazarian ruling class, and ALL the
                    > > Khazarian ruling class, converted to Judaism, maybe it is true,
                    even
                    > > if these two are two strongly demanding and tight conditions, put
                    > > together. But to affirm also that the ruling class was only Q, and
                    > > that all the Q were in the ruling class (and that the others than
                    the
                    > > rulers were all different than Q), is far from any, proven
                    historical
                    > > fact: for what it is known about archaelogy, history and
                    genetic, in
                    > > the history we never had such a genetic "purity", not even at the
                    dawn
                    > > of the humanity. And the habits of the nomadic people of the
                    steppe,
                    > > that were always genetically mixed (as demonstrated by the genetic
                    > > evidence, even of the tested human remains in ancient burials),
                    and
                    > > where the strongest was the ruler (and the strongest may belong
                    to any
                    > > haplogroup, he has simply to be the strongest), offer no support
                    to
                    > > this "genetic purity". The evidence from other Turkic-Mongolic
                    people
                    > > for sure does not support this "genetic purity" of any class,
                    rulers
                    > > or commoners, among them.
                    > >
                    > > Alessandro.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@> wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> Allesandro,
                    > >>
                    > >> Isn't it interesting?
                    > >> This diversity of the Asiatic haplogroups just confirms history
                    > >> of this people of Turkic stock, and historically recorded
                    > >> Central/North Asiatic origin.
                    > >> Khazars was also people of Turkic stock(first as part of GokTurk
                    > >> Khaganate and later as indenpendent state), but it really
                    > >> appears that only ruling class converted to Judaism.
                    > >> It should be noted (as we see) that it can be expected that
                    > >> current Turkey inherited more reacher heritage then Khazaria.
                    > >> Turkey is final stage of several earlier Turkic empires,
                    > >> therefore this more richer genetic legacy in modern Turkey.
                    > >> Modern Turkey is also based on territory of earlier Eastern
                    > >> Roman Empire (Byzantinum).
                    > >> Khazaria was stable state with organised religion, law system and
                    > >> military force, while those kingdoms emerged and collapsed.
                    > >> Ashina was first and founding Dynasty of Turks, remained in
                    > >> Khazaria.
                    > >> Other Dynasties followed.
                    > >>
                    > >> Alfred
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> Citiram Alessandro Felice Biondo <alefbiondo@>:
                    > >>
                    > >> > Alfred,
                    > >> >
                    > >> > You said:
                    > >> >
                    > >> >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                    > >> >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                    > >> >
                    > >> > the answer is in Cinnioglu: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype
                    strata
                    > >> > in Anatolia. On a total of 523 samples there are:
                    > >> >
                    > >> > C*-M216 2 samples
                    > >> > C3-M217 5 samples
                    > >> > N*-M233 15 samples
                    > >> > N3a-M178 5 samples
                    > >> > O3-M122 1 sample
                    > >> > Q*-M242 9 samples
                    > >> > Q2-MM25 1 sample
                    > >> >
                    > >> > The 9 samples with Q*-M242 exhibit a high haplotype diversity:
                    1
                    > >> > sample (number 338) is identical to "our" Q, other 3 are
                    almost equal
                    > >> > to us, other 5 (6 including the Q2-M25) are quite far from us.
                    Again
                    > >> > what is interesting in Turkey is the presence of:
                    > >> > - high haplotype diversity of the Q's;
                    > >> > - some presence of haplogroups from East and North Asia: 20 N
                    (M233
                    > >> > and M178) the double of Q*; 7 C (M216 and M217) almost the same
                    > >> > numbers of Q, 1 O of difficult interpretation.
                    > >> >
                    > >> > Alessandro.
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@>
                    wrote:
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> Rebekah,
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> You said;
                    > >> >> "We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In
                    papers
                    > >> >> about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the
                    > >> >> Hazara got their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any
                    > >> >> group that traces their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000
                    > >> >> years should have some C."
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> Questions;
                    > >> >> 1. You think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara got
                    > >> >> their C from the Mongol hoards.
                    > >> >> That if fine with me.
                    > >> >> But You don't think that it is far then to say that maybe
                    Hazara
                    > >> >> got their Q from the Mongol hoards, as well?
                    > >> >> Or You do?
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> 2. You agree that any group that traces their ancestry to
                    > >> >> Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.
                    > >> >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                    > >> >> Turkic peoples definitely trace origin in Mongolia in last
                    1500
                    > >> >> years. Historic fact.
                    > >> >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> Alfred
                    > >> >> ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l
                    > >> > ----------------------
                    > >> >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                    > >> >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                    > >> >> http://shopping.tportal.hr
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l
                    > > ----------------------
                    > >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                    > >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                    > >> http://shopping.tportal.hr
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l -----------------
                    -----
                    > Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                    > Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                    > http://shopping.tportal.hr
                    >
                  • KRUPA
                    Rebekah, How many Q1b we can find in Europe? And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)? Alfred ... Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Rebekah,

                      How many Q1b we can find in Europe?
                      And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?

                      Alfred
                      ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
                      Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                      Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                      http://shopping.tportal.hr
                    • Rebekah Canada
                      Hi, That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend Alessandro has tested positive. He is from Sicily. Once more people at FTDNA test we be more
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi,

                        That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend Alessandro
                        has tested positive. He is from Sicily. Once more people at FTDNA test
                        we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in Europe
                        but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.

                        Rebekah


                        2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ka.t-com.hr>:
                        > Rebekah,
                        >
                        > How many Q1b we can find in Europe?
                        > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                        >
                        > Alfred
                      • Bob Vick
                        Rebekah, My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all American Vicks will be Q1b. Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment

                          Rebekah,

                           

                           My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all American Vicks will be Q1b.

                           

                           Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one in this group tested?

                           

                           If you are wondering what a Viking Vick is doing on this board. I still see a gap in DNA data that does not exclude the possibility of a later day migration to escape the plagues of Europe . The genetic gap in Mr Lee’s Q in Sweden & the rest of the Norse Q people is just too great to call him the Siberian founder of all Norse source DNA. My Y search matches show the same genetic distance to Norway & Lithuania matches & a 2k to Mr Lee. As you know us Vick’s have an odd selection of markers with no near matches except our family group.

                           

                          Bob       

                           


                          From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                          Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:23 AM
                          To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara

                           

                          Hi,

                          That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend Alessandro
                          has tested positive. He is from Sicily . Once more people at FTDNA test
                          we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in Europe
                          but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.

                          Rebekah

                          2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ ka.t-com. hr>:

                          > Rebekah,
                          >
                          > How many Q1b we can find in Europe ?
                          > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                          >
                          > Alfred

                        • Alessandro Biondo
                          Bob I am a reader of DNA Forums and of RootsWeb GENEALOGY DNA, so I already knew of James Larry Vick and of his results, because he was so helpful to publish
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Bob

                            I am a reader of DNA Forums and of RootsWeb GENEALOGY DNA, so I
                            already knew of James Larry Vick and of his results, because he was
                            so helpful to publish here his result (I hope he is the same person).
                            I know that now he decided also to test with 23andme and to share his
                            Y-DNA result with the community of the genetic genealogist allowing
                            Ann Turner to publish his result in her excel file: maybe compare the
                            23andme result of a Q with our distant cousins R1 will be useful to
                            better ubderstand what are the mutations shared between Q and R1 and
                            what mutations are Q specific. What it is also interesting is that I
                            see some Vick on the Q project web site administred by Rebekah, and
                            all they are in the group 1 of the classification of Rebekah: so
                            maybe Q1b-M378 is not specific to one group, but is shared among
                            different groups (for group here I mean the group based on the
                            Rebekah classification, not ethnical or geographical groups). If this
                            is true, in M378 we have a quite ancient SNP (more than 2000 years),
                            not useful to fix our more recent roots, but useful only to see a
                            route of our ancestors. In effect from all the data I get about Q in
                            Scandinavia (the Karlsonn paper's Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden,
                            the data on yhrd, the data of the Scandinavian DNA project of FTDNA
                            (administred by Rebekah) I see that the typical haplotype is far from
                            mine of 2000-3000 years: much less than others Q, but not so recent
                            as the common ancestor of just the group 3. Obviously these are
                            thoughts that can be confirmed or totally rejected when
                            representatives of the different type of Q (based on the haplotype,
                            the STRs) will have their deep clade test. I hope many Qs of the
                            different type will accept to have this deep clade test because it
                            will be the first step toward a better understaing of our
                            similarities and difference.

                            Alessandro.


                            --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Vick" <Vick@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Rebekah,
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all
                            American
                            > Vicks will be Q1b.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one in this
                            group
                            > tested?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > If you are wondering what a Viking Vick is doing on this board. I
                            still see
                            > a gap in DNA data that does not exclude the possibility of a later
                            day
                            > migration to escape the plagues of Europe. The genetic gap in Mr
                            Lee's Q in
                            > Sweden & the rest of the Norse Q people is just too great to call
                            him the
                            > Siberian founder of all Norse source DNA. My Y search matches show
                            the same
                            > genetic distance to Norway & Lithuania matches & a 2k to Mr Lee. As
                            you know
                            > us Vick's have an odd selection of markers with no near matches
                            except our
                            > family group.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Bob
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > _____
                            >
                            > From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ashkenazi-
                            Q@yahoogroups.com] On
                            > Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                            > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:23 AM
                            > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi,
                            >
                            > That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend
                            Alessandro
                            > has tested positive. He is from Sicily. Once more people at FTDNA
                            test
                            > we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in
                            Europe
                            > but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.
                            >
                            > Rebekah
                            >
                            > 2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ <mailto:mladen.krupa%40ka.t-com.hr>
                            > ka.t-com.hr>:
                            > > Rebekah,
                            > >
                            > > How many Q1b we can find in Europe?
                            > > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                            > >
                            > > Alfred
                            >
                          • Alessandro Biondo
                            Just to add that if the Q1b-M378 is shared between the groups 1 and 3 of the Rebekah classification, maybe we found the western SNP of Q, because all the other
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Just to add that if the Q1b-M378 is shared between the groups 1 and 3
                              of the Rebekah classification, maybe we found the western SNP of Q,
                              because all the other SNP are only in Central and East Asia (and
                              America). Maybe this fact has some relevance. But these are pure
                              speculations if we don't have many Qs with their deep clade test:
                              it's only a thought that was born when I observed that two person
                              tested positive to M378 have different haplotype.

                              Alessandro.


                              --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Alessandro Biondo"
                              <alefbiondo@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Bob
                              >
                              > I am a reader of DNA Forums and of RootsWeb GENEALOGY DNA, so I
                              > already knew of James Larry Vick and of his results, because he was
                              > so helpful to publish here his result (I hope he is the same
                              person).
                              > I know that now he decided also to test with 23andme and to share
                              his
                              > Y-DNA result with the community of the genetic genealogist allowing
                              > Ann Turner to publish his result in her excel file: maybe compare
                              the
                              > 23andme result of a Q with our distant cousins R1 will be useful to
                              > better ubderstand what are the mutations shared between Q and R1
                              and
                              > what mutations are Q specific. What it is also interesting is that
                              I
                              > see some Vick on the Q project web site administred by Rebekah, and
                              > all they are in the group 1 of the classification of Rebekah: so
                              > maybe Q1b-M378 is not specific to one group, but is shared among
                              > different groups (for group here I mean the group based on the
                              > Rebekah classification, not ethnical or geographical groups). If
                              this
                              > is true, in M378 we have a quite ancient SNP (more than 2000
                              years),
                              > not useful to fix our more recent roots, but useful only to see a
                              > route of our ancestors. In effect from all the data I get about Q
                              in
                              > Scandinavia (the Karlsonn paper's Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden,
                              > the data on yhrd, the data of the Scandinavian DNA project of FTDNA
                              > (administred by Rebekah) I see that the typical haplotype is far
                              from
                              > mine of 2000-3000 years: much less than others Q, but not so recent
                              > as the common ancestor of just the group 3. Obviously these are
                              > thoughts that can be confirmed or totally rejected when
                              > representatives of the different type of Q (based on the haplotype,
                              > the STRs) will have their deep clade test. I hope many Qs of the
                              > different type will accept to have this deep clade test because it
                              > will be the first step toward a better understaing of our
                              > similarities and difference.
                              >
                              > Alessandro.
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Vick" <Vick@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Rebekah,
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all
                              > American
                              > > Vicks will be Q1b.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one in
                              this
                              > group
                              > > tested?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > If you are wondering what a Viking Vick is doing on this board.
                              I
                              > still see
                              > > a gap in DNA data that does not exclude the possibility of a
                              later
                              > day
                              > > migration to escape the plagues of Europe. The genetic gap in Mr
                              > Lee's Q in
                              > > Sweden & the rest of the Norse Q people is just too great to call
                              > him the
                              > > Siberian founder of all Norse source DNA. My Y search matches
                              show
                              > the same
                              > > genetic distance to Norway & Lithuania matches & a 2k to Mr Lee.
                              As
                              > you know
                              > > us Vick's have an odd selection of markers with no near matches
                              > except our
                              > > family group.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Bob
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > _____
                              > >
                              > > From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ashkenazi-
                              > Q@yahoogroups.com] On
                              > > Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                              > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:23 AM
                              > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Hi,
                              > >
                              > > That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend
                              > Alessandro
                              > > has tested positive. He is from Sicily. Once more people at FTDNA
                              > test
                              > > we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in
                              > Europe
                              > > but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.
                              > >
                              > > Rebekah
                              > >
                              > > 2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ <mailto:mladen.krupa%40ka.t-com.hr>
                              > > ka.t-com.hr>:
                              > > > Rebekah,
                              > > >
                              > > > How many Q1b we can find in Europe?
                              > > > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                              > > >
                              > > > Alfred
                              > >
                              >
                            • Bob Vick
                              Alessandro, Yes it is the same James Larry Vick; I will meet him tomorrow with another 100 Vick s at a family reunion. It will be an interesting journey into
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment

                                Alessandro,

                                 

                                 Yes it is the same James Larry Vick; I will meet him tomorrow with another 100 Vick’s at a family reunion. It will be an interesting journey into the effects of Mt & Y mixes in appearances of Q1b Vicks.

                                 

                                 Our line came to America in 1650 by Joseph Vick. We match none of the English or German Vick’s tested so far. We do show some near matches on 6 markers in Norway , however prior to 1650 many Europeans escaped north to avoid plagues & religious persecution. In my research it seems the genetic connections have a gap in genetic distance from 400 – 600 years back to the 2000 years back you mentioned.

                                 

                                 There are a few of us Vick’s that “feel” a Jewish connection; the science does not point there yet. But we know that many early American immigrants just simulated into the culture, societies & religions around them. There are a group of early American immigrants that all have that Q1b, yet show no close Vick connection. That fact makes me believe they all followed a long similar migration pattern, maybe from the same roots as the Ashkenazi Q.    

                                 

                                 I like your idea on western Q1b; it makes more sense than walking the Siberian ice. Yet I cannot ignore the similarities in horse DNA from Siberia & the Norwegian horses. Maybe there were two migrations of Q, one from the east & one from the south & we know the American Indian Q’s migrated yet another way. I do not know if you have read about similar American Indian & Jewish customs recorded in early America . Some appear to be hoaxes, yet some seem to have some validity. I don’t think anyone ever figured out the 10 Commandments written in ancient Hebrew found in the American West.

                                 http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/loslunas.html

                                 http://www.hope-of-israel.org/hebinusa.htm

                                 

                                Cheers, Bob Vick      

                                 

                                 


                                From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Alessandro Biondo
                                Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:01 PM
                                To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara

                                 

                                Just to add that if the Q1b-M378 is shared between the groups 1 and 3
                                of the Rebekah classification, maybe we found the western SNP of Q,
                                because all the other SNP are only in Central and East Asia (and
                                America ). Maybe this fact has some relevance. But these are pure
                                speculations if we don't have many Qs with their deep clade test:
                                it's only a thought that was born when I observed that two person
                                tested positive to M378 have different haplotype.

                                Alessandro.

                                --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "Alessandro Biondo"
                                <alefbiondo@ ...> wrote:

                                >
                                > Bob
                                >
                                > I am a reader of DNA Forums and of RootsWeb GENEALOGY DNA, so I
                                > already knew of James Larry Vick and of his results, because he was
                                > so helpful to publish here his result (I hope he is the same
                                person).
                                > I know that now he decided also to test with 23andme and to share
                                his
                                > Y-DNA result with the community of the genetic genealogist allowing
                                > Ann Turner to publish his result in her excel file: maybe compare
                                the
                                > 23andme result of a Q with our distant cousins R1 will be useful to
                                > better ubderstand what are the mutations shared between Q and R1
                                and
                                > what mutations are Q specific. What it is also interesting is that
                                I
                                > see some Vick on the Q project web site administred by Rebekah, and
                                > all they are in the group 1 of the classification of Rebekah: so
                                > maybe Q1b-M378 is not specific to one group, but is shared among
                                > different groups (for group here I mean the group based on the
                                > Rebekah classification, not ethnical or geographical groups). If
                                this
                                > is true, in M378 we have a quite ancient SNP (more than 2000
                                years),
                                > not useful to fix our more recent roots, but useful only to see a
                                > route of our ancestors. In effect from all the data I get about Q
                                in
                                > Scandinavia (the Karlsonn paper's Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden,
                                > the data on yhrd, the data of the Scandinavian DNA project of FTDNA
                                > (administred by Rebekah) I see that the typical haplotype is far
                                from
                                > mine of 2000-3000 years: much less than others Q, but not so recent
                                > as the common ancestor of just the group 3. Obviously these are
                                > thoughts that can be confirmed or totally rejected when
                                > representatives of the different type of Q (based on the haplotype,
                                > the STRs) will have their deep clade test. I hope many Qs of the
                                > different type will accept to have this deep clade test because it
                                > will be the first step toward a better understaing of our
                                > similarities and difference.
                                >
                                > Alessandro.
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com,
                                "Bob Vick" <Vick@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Rebekah,
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all
                                > American
                                > > Vicks will be Q1b.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one in
                                this
                                > group
                                > > tested?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > If you are wondering what a Viking Vick is doing on this board.
                                I
                                > still see
                                > > a gap in DNA data that does not exclude the possibility of a
                                later
                                > day
                                > > migration to escape the plagues of Europe .
                                The genetic gap in Mr
                                > Lee's Q in
                                > > Sweden
                                & the rest of the Norse Q people is just too great to call
                                > him the
                                > > Siberian founder of all Norse source DNA. My Y search matches
                                show
                                > the same
                                > > genetic distance to Norway
                                & Lithuania matches & a 2k to Mr Lee.
                                As
                                > you know
                                > > us Vick's have an odd selection of markers with no near matches
                                > except our
                                > > family group.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Bob
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > _____
                                > >
                                > > From: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
                                [mailto:Ashkenazi-
                                > Q@yahoogroups. com] On
                                > > Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                                > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:23 AM
                                > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Hi,
                                > >
                                > > That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend
                                > Alessandro
                                > > has tested positive. He is from
                                w:st="on">Sicily . Once more people at FTDNA
                                > test
                                > > we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in
                                > Europe
                                > > but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.
                                > >
                                > > Rebekah
                                > >
                                > > 2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ <mailto:mladen. krupa%40ka. t-com.hr>
                                > > ka.t-com.hr> :
                                > > > Rebekah,
                                > > >
                                > > > How many Q1b we can find in Europe ?
                                > > > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                                > > >
                                > > > Alfred
                                > >
                                >

                              • Alessandro Biondo
                                Bob, excuse me, about the 2000-3000 years I was not enough clear: when I talk about 2000-3000 years I mean my TMRCA from the typical Swedish Q haplotype, as
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Bob,

                                  excuse me, about the 2000-3000 years I was not enough clear: when I
                                  talk about 2000-3000 years I mean my TMRCA from the typical Swedish Q
                                  haplotype, as found in the Scandianavian Y project administred by
                                  Rebekah, and in the Q groups 1 and 2 of the Q project, and in the Q
                                  YDNA found in the Karlsson paper's: Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden.
                                  All the haplotypes I found in these works, if analyzed through the
                                  mymcgee web site, give me an estimate of 2000-3000 years for the
                                  common ancestor between me (I am in the group 3 of Rebekah) and the
                                  modal of each of these groups: the years differs according the values
                                  I used for the mutation rate and for the years/generations. As for
                                  reference, using the same values, when I compare myself to the modal
                                  of the group 3 (my group), I have an estimate of 600-1000 years from
                                  the modal.

                                  I hope this can help.

                                  Alessandro.


                                  --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Vick" <Vick@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Alessandro,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yes it is the same James Larry Vick; I will meet him tomorrow with
                                  another
                                  > 100 Vick's at a family reunion. It will be an interesting journey
                                  into the
                                  > effects of Mt & Y mixes in appearances of Q1b Vicks.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Our line came to America in 1650 by Joseph Vick. We match none of the
                                  > English or German Vick's tested so far. We do show some near matches
                                  on 6
                                  > markers in Norway, however prior to 1650 many Europeans escaped north to
                                  > avoid plagues & religious persecution. In my research it seems the
                                  genetic
                                  > connections have a gap in genetic distance from 400 - 600 years back
                                  to the
                                  > 2000 years back you mentioned.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > There are a few of us Vick's that "feel" a Jewish connection; the
                                  science
                                  > does not point there yet. But we know that many early American
                                  immigrants
                                  > just simulated into the culture, societies & religions around them.
                                  There
                                  > are a group of early American immigrants that all have that Q1b, yet
                                  show no
                                  > close Vick connection. That fact makes me believe they all followed
                                  a long
                                  > similar migration pattern, maybe from the same roots as the
                                  Ashkenazi Q.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I like your idea on western Q1b; it makes more sense than walking the
                                  > Siberian ice. Yet I cannot ignore the similarities in horse DNA from
                                  Siberia
                                  > & the Norwegian horses. Maybe there were two migrations of Q, one
                                  from the
                                  > east & one from the south & we know the American Indian Q's migrated yet
                                  > another way. I do not know if you have read about similar American
                                  Indian &
                                  > Jewish customs recorded in early America. Some appear to be hoaxes,
                                  yet some
                                  > seem to have some validity. I don't think anyone ever figured out the 10
                                  > Commandments written in ancient Hebrew found in the American West.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/loslunas.html
                                  >
                                  > http://www.hope-of-israel.org/hebinusa.htm
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Cheers, Bob Vick
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > Behalf Of Alessandro Biondo
                                  > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:01 PM
                                  > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Just to add that if the Q1b-M378 is shared between the groups 1 and 3
                                  > of the Rebekah classification, maybe we found the western SNP of Q,
                                  > because all the other SNP are only in Central and East Asia (and
                                  > America). Maybe this fact has some relevance. But these are pure
                                  > speculations if we don't have many Qs with their deep clade test:
                                  > it's only a thought that was born when I observed that two person
                                  > tested positive to M378 have different haplotype.
                                  >
                                  > Alessandro.
                                  >
                                  > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com,
                                  > "Alessandro Biondo"
                                  > <alefbiondo@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Bob
                                  > >
                                  > > I am a reader of DNA Forums and of RootsWeb GENEALOGY DNA, so I
                                  > > already knew of James Larry Vick and of his results, because he was
                                  > > so helpful to publish here his result (I hope he is the same
                                  > person).
                                  > > I know that now he decided also to test with 23andme and to share
                                  > his
                                  > > Y-DNA result with the community of the genetic genealogist allowing
                                  > > Ann Turner to publish his result in her excel file: maybe compare
                                  > the
                                  > > 23andme result of a Q with our distant cousins R1 will be useful to
                                  > > better ubderstand what are the mutations shared between Q and R1
                                  > and
                                  > > what mutations are Q specific. What it is also interesting is that
                                  > I
                                  > > see some Vick on the Q project web site administred by Rebekah, and
                                  > > all they are in the group 1 of the classification of Rebekah: so
                                  > > maybe Q1b-M378 is not specific to one group, but is shared among
                                  > > different groups (for group here I mean the group based on the
                                  > > Rebekah classification, not ethnical or geographical groups). If
                                  > this
                                  > > is true, in M378 we have a quite ancient SNP (more than 2000
                                  > years),
                                  > > not useful to fix our more recent roots, but useful only to see a
                                  > > route of our ancestors. In effect from all the data I get about Q
                                  > in
                                  > > Scandinavia (the Karlsonn paper's Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden,
                                  > > the data on yhrd, the data of the Scandinavian DNA project of FTDNA
                                  > > (administred by Rebekah) I see that the typical haplotype is far
                                  > from
                                  > > mine of 2000-3000 years: much less than others Q, but not so recent
                                  > > as the common ancestor of just the group 3. Obviously these are
                                  > > thoughts that can be confirmed or totally rejected when
                                  > > representatives of the different type of Q (based on the haplotype,
                                  > > the STRs) will have their deep clade test. I hope many Qs of the
                                  > > different type will accept to have this deep clade test because it
                                  > > will be the first step toward a better understaing of our
                                  > > similarities and difference.
                                  > >
                                  > > Alessandro.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com, "Bob Vick" <Vick@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Rebekah,
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all
                                  > > American
                                  > > > Vicks will be Q1b.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one in
                                  > this
                                  > > group
                                  > > > tested?
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > If you are wondering what a Viking Vick is doing on this board.
                                  > I
                                  > > still see
                                  > > > a gap in DNA data that does not exclude the possibility of a
                                  > later
                                  > > day
                                  > > > migration to escape the plagues of Europe. The genetic gap in Mr
                                  > > Lee's Q in
                                  > > > Sweden & the rest of the Norse Q people is just too great to call
                                  > > him the
                                  > > > Siberian founder of all Norse source DNA. My Y search matches
                                  > show
                                  > > the same
                                  > > > genetic distance to Norway & Lithuania matches & a 2k to Mr Lee.
                                  > As
                                  > > you know
                                  > > > us Vick's have an odd selection of markers with no near matches
                                  > > except our
                                  > > > family group.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Bob
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > _____
                                  > > >
                                  > > > From: Ashkenazi-Q@ <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ashkenazi-
                                  > > Q@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q%40yahoogroups.com> com] On
                                  > > > Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                                  > > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:23 AM
                                  > > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@ <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hi,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend
                                  > > Alessandro
                                  > > > has tested positive. He is from Sicily. Once more people at FTDNA
                                  > > test
                                  > > > we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in
                                  > > Europe
                                  > > > but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Rebekah
                                  > > >
                                  > > > 2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ <mailto:mladen.krupa%40ka.t-com.hr>
                                  > > > ka.t-com.hr>:
                                  > > > > Rebekah,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > How many Q1b we can find in Europe?
                                  > > > > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Alfred
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Rebekah Canada
                                  Alessandro, How many markers are you using with the mymcgee web site? Regards, Rebekah
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                    Alessandro,

                                    How many markers are you using with the mymcgee web site?

                                    Regards,
                                    Rebekah
                                  • Alessandro Biondo
                                    Rebekah, for the 2 ftdna project you lead, I used all the markers available for all the members (very easy task to download them in excel, and from here upload
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                      Rebekah,

                                      for the 2 ftdna project you lead, I used all the markers available for
                                      all the members (very easy task to download them in excel, and from
                                      here upload to mymcgee), for the Karlsson paper the 9 STR published are:
                                      DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385a DYS385b DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II.

                                      In the mymcgee I used both the Ftdna and the McDonald as Mutation
                                      rate, and I used 25 years as years/generation.

                                      I compared myself to the modal of other groups, but I did not make
                                      comparisons between the groups.

                                      Regards.


                                      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Rebekah Canada"
                                      <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Alessandro,
                                      >
                                      > How many markers are you using with the mymcgee web site?
                                      >
                                      > Regards,
                                      > Rebekah
                                      >
                                    • Rebekah Canada
                                      Alessandro, Yes, I have used mymcgee.:-) I ask because I believe that the 9 and 12 marker sets underestimate the common ancestor calculation. For group 3/4
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                        Alessandro,

                                        Yes, I have used mymcgee.:-) I ask because I believe that the 9 and 12
                                        marker sets underestimate the common ancestor calculation. For group
                                        3/4 things may be very off as often only those who have exact matches
                                        upgrade to more markers. So it is "close' cousins who are testing and
                                        shifting the results.

                                        Regards,
                                        Rebekah
                                      • Alessandro Biondo
                                        Rebekah, I agree with you that mymcgee it is not a perfect tool, and moreover that a big problem we face it is the quantity and quality of the statistical
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                          Rebekah,

                                          I agree with you that mymcgee it is not a perfect tool, and moreover
                                          that a big problem we face it is the quantity and quality of the
                                          statistical samples, both for the number of markers tested and for
                                          the number of samples (that it is the most important factor to impact
                                          on the way the modal is build). I also observed that if I use few
                                          markers I am less distant than if I use more markers. For these
                                          reasons I give no absolute value to the number of years I can estimate
                                          with it: anway it can give us some useful indications, even if it is
                                          important to clarify that it is necessary to use these results with
                                          caution, without losing the general frame and the question of the
                                          quality and quantity of the samples to be compare.

                                          A more complete result from my research (with Ftdna as mutation rate,
                                          and 25 years as years/generation)comparing the individual samples is:
                                          Scandinavian Q_YDNA: from 1475 to 2450 years, the 6 67 marker samples
                                          are at 1725/2250 years
                                          Group 1: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 8 67 marker samples are at
                                          2075-2450 years
                                          Group 2: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 7 67 markers are at 1725-2075 years

                                          It is only an example, and I repeat, no absolute meaning to these
                                          data, but maybe, as I hope, some useful information. With all the
                                          comparision we can do, and with all the needed cautions, maybe if I
                                          think of a distance from me and the members of Swedish-group1-group2
                                          members a bit more than double (a bit less than triple) than the
                                          distance that divide me from the other members of the group 3 (for
                                          which a TMRCA of approx 1000 years seems to be prevaling), I am
                                          thinking a not so unlikely fact.
                                          For sure it will be a much more interesting thing to discover if
                                          really we (the group 1/2 and 3/4) share the same M378 mutation of the
                                          Swedish-group1-group2 group, and this mutation maybe split all of us
                                          from the prevaling Asian subclades. But this is only a hazardous and
                                          untimely suggestion until many Q of different branches will have their
                                          deep clade test done.

                                          Regards.

                                          Alessandro.


                                          --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Rebekah Canada"
                                          <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Alessandro,
                                          >
                                          > Yes, I have used mymcgee.:-) I ask because I believe that the 9 and 12
                                          > marker sets underestimate the common ancestor calculation. For group
                                          > 3/4 things may be very off as often only those who have exact matches
                                          > upgrade to more markers. So it is "close' cousins who are testing and
                                          > shifting the results.
                                          >
                                          > Regards,
                                          > Rebekah
                                          >
                                        • Alessandro Biondo
                                          Rebekah and all, excuse me: when I was reading my previous post I observed a possible ... All the years I talked are the distance from me of these
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                            Rebekah and all,

                                            excuse me: when I was reading my previous post I observed a possible
                                            source of misunderstanding. Concerning the following:

                                            >Scandinavian Q_YDNA: from 1475 to 2450 years, the 6 67 marker samples
                                            >are at 1725/2250 years
                                            >Group 1: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 8 67 marker samples are at
                                            >2075-2450 years
                                            >Group 2: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 7 67 markers are at 1725-2075
                                            >years

                                            All the years I talked are the distance from me of these
                                            samples-groups, not the TMRCA of the group.

                                            Excuse me again if I was not so clear.

                                            Alessandro.


                                            --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Alessandro Biondo"
                                            <alefbiondo@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Rebekah,
                                            >
                                            > I agree with you that mymcgee it is not a perfect tool, and moreover
                                            > that a big problem we face it is the quantity and quality of the
                                            > statistical samples, both for the number of markers tested and for
                                            > the number of samples (that it is the most important factor to impact
                                            > on the way the modal is build). I also observed that if I use few
                                            > markers I am less distant than if I use more markers. For these
                                            > reasons I give no absolute value to the number of years I can estimate
                                            > with it: anway it can give us some useful indications, even if it is
                                            > important to clarify that it is necessary to use these results with
                                            > caution, without losing the general frame and the question of the
                                            > quality and quantity of the samples to be compare.
                                            >
                                            > A more complete result from my research (with Ftdna as mutation rate,
                                            > and 25 years as years/generation)comparing the individual samples is:
                                            > Scandinavian Q_YDNA: from 1475 to 2450 years, the 6 67 marker samples
                                            > are at 1725/2250 years
                                            > Group 1: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 8 67 marker samples are at
                                            > 2075-2450 years
                                            > Group 2: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 7 67 markers are at 1725-2075
                                            years
                                            >
                                            > It is only an example, and I repeat, no absolute meaning to these
                                            > data, but maybe, as I hope, some useful information. With all the
                                            > comparision we can do, and with all the needed cautions, maybe if I
                                            > think of a distance from me and the members of Swedish-group1-group2
                                            > members a bit more than double (a bit less than triple) than the
                                            > distance that divide me from the other members of the group 3 (for
                                            > which a TMRCA of approx 1000 years seems to be prevaling), I am
                                            > thinking a not so unlikely fact.
                                            > For sure it will be a much more interesting thing to discover if
                                            > really we (the group 1/2 and 3/4) share the same M378 mutation of the
                                            > Swedish-group1-group2 group, and this mutation maybe split all of us
                                            > from the prevaling Asian subclades. But this is only a hazardous and
                                            > untimely suggestion until many Q of different branches will have their
                                            > deep clade test done.
                                            >
                                            > Regards.
                                            >
                                            > Alessandro.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Rebekah Canada"
                                            > <rebekahthorn@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Alessandro,
                                            > >
                                            > > Yes, I have used mymcgee.:-) I ask because I believe that the 9 and 12
                                            > > marker sets underestimate the common ancestor calculation. For group
                                            > > 3/4 things may be very off as often only those who have exact matches
                                            > > upgrade to more markers. So it is "close' cousins who are testing and
                                            > > shifting the results.
                                            > >
                                            > > Regards,
                                            > > Rebekah
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • Rebekah Canada
                                            Alessandro, If you want to get more complicated... Try putting in the modal for the Dimond family and one for each of the Sizemore families. Try it first for
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                              Alessandro,

                                              If you want to get more complicated... Try putting in the modal for
                                              the Dimond family and one for each of the Sizemore families.

                                              Try it first for those six marker that the old papers used, then for
                                              12, then for 25, and 37, and finally 67.

                                              Regards,
                                              Rebekah
                                            • Alessandro Biondo
                                              Rebekah, what I see if I play this strange game is that in this case the more are the marker, the closer are the samples in term of TMRCA, even if they belong
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                                Rebekah,

                                                what I see if I play this strange game is that in this case the more
                                                are the marker, the closer are the samples in term of TMRCA, even if
                                                they belong to different haplogroups.
                                                I think that in general, clustering a group of sample can results in
                                                some dubious cases anytime we face with not pure or not
                                                straightforward sample.
                                                Anyway we need to rely on the tools we have, it is only important to
                                                know the weak point of every tool as well the strong points, and to
                                                extract from every tool only what they can.

                                                Regards.

                                                Alessandro.


                                                --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Rebekah Canada"
                                                <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Alessandro,
                                                >
                                                > If you want to get more complicated... Try putting in the modal for
                                                > the Dimond family and one for each of the Sizemore families.
                                                >
                                                > Try it first for those six marker that the old papers used, then for
                                                > 12, then for 25, and 37, and finally 67.
                                                >
                                                > Regards,
                                                > Rebekah
                                                >
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