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Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara

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  • KRUPA
    Allesandro, Simple is that to explain if we know history of Khazars. They were part of early Turkic tribes who lived separately from others /Hungars and
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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      Allesandro,

      Simple is that to explain if we know history of Khazars.
      They were part of early Turkic tribes who lived separately from
      others /Hungars and Finnish are completely different story,
      geneticaly and historicaly/, but under Chinese domination in
      first half of 1st millenium.

      In particular that confirms reports of Ashina Clan as people
      ,some sub-tribe, who emerged on south side of Altay (we know
      even microlocation-today it falls in borders of Turkestan of
      China). As considered to be sacred and semi-divine, special
      heavenly mandated caste, they didn't mixed too much with others
      /today in Mongolia we have 4% of Q/.

      When I say others- in first place I have in mind Chinese
      population and Mongolians (as we know them today). They are main
      carriers of C and O.
      Later history proves Mongols as deadly enemies of Khazars.

      Ashina moved to Khazaria in mid 7th century, trough the Silk
      Road.
      In Uzbekistan in Turkmenistan /Silk Road route/ we have
      relatively largest number of individuals with Q mutation /up to
      15% of total population/.

      And again, statues and wall drawings, of Ashina (rulers of
      Khazars and Gokturks earlier) shows only Mongolic features.

      We are the only haplogroup within Mongolic race founded in
      Ashkenazi (with possible origin in Khazaria).

      It will be much complicated that we have C and O in Ashkenazi
      genetic pool.
      But there is not any.

      So in that time they was Chinese, Mongolians and Turks /with
      manly "White"-European characteristics ,and Mongolic-Oriental in
      smaller percentage/..
      Different cultures.

      Hazara people and Khazars (particulary Ashina) are not the same
      people.
      Different history, different religious and cultural paths,
      different circumstances, but most probably similar original
      location and at least part of time schedule.

      Alfred



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    • KRUPA
      Allesandro, A full beauty lies in a fact there in Europe there is no other haplogroups of North Asiatic-Mongolic type (in fact there is some, but in too small
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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        Allesandro,

        A full beauty lies in a fact there in Europe there is no other
        haplogroups of North Asiatic-Mongolic type (in fact there is
        some, but in too small percentage to conclude anything), except
        us (+some other small pockets)!

        Khazars was acknowledged of people of Turko-Mongolic stock.

        Rulers of Khazars was of Mongolic type.

        We didn't explain all as You want to point. That is a fact, but
        we have good direction where to look for final answer!

        Alfred
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      • Rebekah Canada
        Alessandro, It is true that C/C3 and N are not found in ether Ashkenazic or Sephardic populations. C is sometimes found in very low frequencies in non-Jewish
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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          Alessandro,

          It is true that C/C3 and N are not found in ether Ashkenazic or
          Sephardic populations. C is sometimes found in very low frequencies in
          non-Jewish European populations. It is maybe a fraction of a percent.
          N is found in the Scandinavian region and also in much lower amounts
          in the rest of Europe. Here is a map from ySearch.
          http://www.ysearch.org/haplomap_europe.asp?haplo=,N

          We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers about
          China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the Hazara got
          their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any group that traces
          their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.

          All of the other Haplogroups can be found though in the Balkans and
          the Levant. These make think of Macedonia and the Great Alexander. :-)

          Now I have a question that perhaps someone in the group can answer.
          When the Russians "evacuated" the Jewish populations from Latvia c.
          1915, where were they sent?

          Rebekah
        • KRUPA
          Rebekah, You said; We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the Hazara got
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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            Rebekah,

            You said;
            "We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers
            about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the
            Hazara got their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any
            group that traces their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000
            years should have some C."

            Questions;
            1. You think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara got
            their C from the Mongol hoards.
            That if fine with me.
            But You don't think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara
            got their Q from the Mongol hoards, as well?
            Or You do?

            2. You agree that any group that traces their ancestry to
            Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.
            How many C we can find in Turkey?
            Turkic peoples definitely trace origin in Mongolia in last 1500
            years. Historic fact.
            Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?


            Alfred
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          • Rebekah Canada
            Yes. There are many different types of Q in Anatolia. I think that Dave placed a paper about Anatolia in the files. On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:55 AM, KRUPA
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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              Yes. There are many different types of Q in Anatolia. I think that
              Dave placed a paper about Anatolia in the files.

              On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:55 AM, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ka.t-com.hr> wrote:
              ..
              > Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
              >
              > Alfred

              --
              Peace and Light,
              Rebekah
            • Bob Vick
              Rebekah, When one looks at the detailed numbers, if they are available in depth , do they point to the central Asia/Siberian regions in reverse mutations? Or
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                Rebekah,

                 

                 When one looks at the detailed numbers, “if they are available in depth”, do they point to the central Asia/Siberian regions in reverse mutations? Or are we simply using higher % of population & calling it founder/origin.

                 

                 My continual question is did Q survive in these remote areas because they missed invasions & disease? When one looks at Q in the Americas it was surly prolific until the introduction of European disease & war. When one considers the 100% Q in the Americas & the +/- 4% in the rest of the “tested” world, one has to consider democide in corruption of analysis.

                http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

                 

                 The Mr. Lee DNA of Scandinavia is the only ancient Q DNA I see in Y-Search; the rest is a 400 – 600 year separation to my numbers. With Q & R starting about the same time, one has to consider why Q is a lesser %.

                 

                Bob the generalist.

                 

                 

                 


                From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:40 AM
                To: Q (Ashkenazi Group)
                Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Sindhi and Hazara

                 

                Hi,

                 

                The Sindhi and Hazara samples come from Sengupta 2006. I have placed the new YCC 2008 names after the percentages. If we are going to call Q1b Mongol because it is found in the Hazara then we would have to say the same thing of all these other Haplogroups.

                 

                The Hazara are:

                n=22

                C3    (M217)             10 45.45% C3

                R1b2b (M073)              6 27.27% R1b1b1

                Q1    (M120)              1  4.55% Q1a1

                Q1a   (M378)              1  4.55% Q1b

                I1c2  (M170\223\379)      1  4.55% I2b2

                J2a   (M410)              1  4.55% J2a

                O3    (M122)              2  9.09% O3

                 

                The Sindhi are:

                n= 21

                J1   (M267)   1  4.76% J1

                J2a  (M410)   4 19.05% J2a

                J2b2 (M241)   2  9.52% J2b2

                L3   (M357)   1  4.76% L3

                Q1a  (M378)   1  4.76% Q1b

                R1a1 (M017)  11 52.38% R1a1

                R2   (M124)   1  4.76% R2

                 

                With the exceptions of having L3, with a noticeably low level of J1, and an absence of R1b the Sindhi do resemble the Haplogroups of an Ashkenazic group. I will have to compare haplotypes. Perhaps this is flow along the silk road.

                 

                Sadly, with this small sample, we can not make diversity comparisons.

                 

                 

                Regards,

                Rebekah

              • Alessandro Felice Biondo
                Alfred, ... the answer is in Cinnioglu: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia. On a total of 523 samples there are: C*-M216 2 samples C3-M217
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                  Alfred,

                  You said:

                  > How many C we can find in Turkey?
                  > Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?

                  the answer is in Cinnioglu: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata
                  in Anatolia. On a total of 523 samples there are:

                  C*-M216 2 samples
                  C3-M217 5 samples
                  N*-M233 15 samples
                  N3a-M178 5 samples
                  O3-M122 1 sample
                  Q*-M242 9 samples
                  Q2-MM25 1 sample

                  The 9 samples with Q*-M242 exhibit a high haplotype diversity: 1
                  sample (number 338) is identical to "our" Q, other 3 are almost equal
                  to us, other 5 (6 including the Q2-M25) are quite far from us. Again
                  what is interesting in Turkey is the presence of:
                  - high haplotype diversity of the Q's;
                  - some presence of haplogroups from East and North Asia: 20 N (M233
                  and M178) the double of Q*; 7 C (M216 and M217) almost the same
                  numbers of Q, 1 O of difficult interpretation.

                  Alessandro.



                  --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Rebekah,
                  >
                  > You said;
                  > "We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers
                  > about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the
                  > Hazara got their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any
                  > group that traces their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000
                  > years should have some C."
                  >
                  > Questions;
                  > 1. You think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara got
                  > their C from the Mongol hoards.
                  > That if fine with me.
                  > But You don't think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara
                  > got their Q from the Mongol hoards, as well?
                  > Or You do?
                  >
                  > 2. You agree that any group that traces their ancestry to
                  > Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.
                  > How many C we can find in Turkey?
                  > Turkic peoples definitely trace origin in Mongolia in last 1500
                  > years. Historic fact.
                  > Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                  >
                  >
                  > Alfred
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                • KRUPA
                  Allesandro, Isn t it interesting? This diversity of the Asiatic haplogroups just confirms history of this people of Turkic stock, and historically recorded
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                    Allesandro,

                    Isn't it interesting?
                    This diversity of the Asiatic haplogroups just confirms history
                    of this people of Turkic stock, and historically recorded
                    Central/North Asiatic origin.
                    Khazars was also people of Turkic stock(first as part of GokTurk
                    Khaganate and later as indenpendent state), but it really
                    appears that only ruling class converted to Judaism.
                    It should be noted (as we see) that it can be expected that
                    current Turkey inherited more reacher heritage then Khazaria.
                    Turkey is final stage of several earlier Turkic empires,
                    therefore this more richer genetic legacy in modern Turkey.
                    Modern Turkey is also based on territory of earlier Eastern
                    Roman Empire (Byzantinum).
                    Khazaria was stable state with organised religion, law system and
                    military force, while those kingdoms emerged and collapsed.
                    Ashina was first and founding Dynasty of Turks, remained in
                    Khazaria.
                    Other Dynasties followed.

                    Alfred


                    Citiram Alessandro Felice Biondo <alefbiondo@...>:

                    > Alfred,
                    >
                    > You said:
                    >
                    >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                    >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                    >
                    > the answer is in Cinnioglu: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata
                    > in Anatolia. On a total of 523 samples there are:
                    >
                    > C*-M216 2 samples
                    > C3-M217 5 samples
                    > N*-M233 15 samples
                    > N3a-M178 5 samples
                    > O3-M122 1 sample
                    > Q*-M242 9 samples
                    > Q2-MM25 1 sample
                    >
                    > The 9 samples with Q*-M242 exhibit a high haplotype diversity: 1
                    > sample (number 338) is identical to "our" Q, other 3 are almost equal
                    > to us, other 5 (6 including the Q2-M25) are quite far from us. Again
                    > what is interesting in Turkey is the presence of:
                    > - high haplotype diversity of the Q's;
                    > - some presence of haplogroups from East and North Asia: 20 N (M233
                    > and M178) the double of Q*; 7 C (M216 and M217) almost the same
                    > numbers of Q, 1 O of difficult interpretation.
                    >
                    > Alessandro.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Rebekah,
                    >>
                    >> You said;
                    >> "We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers
                    >> about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the
                    >> Hazara got their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any
                    >> group that traces their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000
                    >> years should have some C."
                    >>
                    >> Questions;
                    >> 1. You think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara got
                    >> their C from the Mongol hoards.
                    >> That if fine with me.
                    >> But You don't think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara
                    >> got their Q from the Mongol hoards, as well?
                    >> Or You do?
                    >>
                    >> 2. You agree that any group that traces their ancestry to
                    >> Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.
                    >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                    >> Turkic peoples definitely trace origin in Mongolia in last 1500
                    >> years. Historic fact.
                    >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Alfred
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                    > ----------------------
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                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >


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                  • NADENE GOLDFOOT
                    Alfred, You are classified as Q1b. We are Q1. How did you get the b? How is that different? I m just going for an upgrade from 25 to 37 markers now and am
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                      Alfred,
                      You are classified as Q1b.  We are Q1.  How did you get the b?  How is that different?  I'm just going for an upgrade from 25 to 37 markers now and am curious.  My grandfather was from "Russia", born about 1872, and was Jewish. 
                      Nadene
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: KRUPA
                      Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:14 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Sindhi and Hazara

                      Rebekah,

                      We will call Q1b Mongol, because whole Q is Mongol.But it is
                      interesting that this peoples are considered to be originaly
                      from Mongolia. Presence of Q, O and C confirms this.
                      Other comes "by the way". The Silk Road of course.
                      That is my point from very beginning (that is why I am saying
                      "recent" Asiatic origin, Khazaria was on one end of this way).
                      And it is very interesting emerging similarities with Hazara,
                      Sindhi and Ashkenazi (percentage of Q's) and presence of Q1b in
                      particular.
                      If we say similarities between possible K-Hazars, Hazara and
                      Sindhi sounds more normal, isnt it?

                      I have Q1b in exact matches list,as well in further mutations. I
                      see Q1b in others lists as well.

                      Rebekah, I just want to say that now we have more and more clear
                      and elaborated picture about path of our ancestors and who they
                      was.
                      Nothing is final, naturally!

                      Your weight is on biological side (and You contribution and
                      knowledge is huge!), my perhaps on comparison of facts,
                      particulary historic and personals.

                      Alfred

                      Citiram Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@ gmail.com>:

                      > Hi,
                      >
                      > The Sindhi and Hazara samples come from Sengupta 2006. I have placed the new
                      > YCC 2008 <http://www.familytr eedna.com/ pdf/2008- HaploChart_ GR_lores. pdf>names
                      > after the percentages. If we are going to call Q1b Mongol because it
                      > is found in the Hazara then we would have to say the same thing of all these
                      > other Haplogroups.
                      >
                      > The Hazara are:
                      > n=22
                      > C3 (M217) 10 45.45% C3
                      > R1b2b (M073) 6 27.27% R1b1b1
                      > Q1 (M120) 1 4.55% Q1a1
                      > Q1a (M378) 1 4.55% Q1b
                      > I1c2 (M170\223\379) 1 4.55% I2b2
                      > J2a (M410) 1 4.55% J2a
                      > O3 (M122) 2 9.09% O3
                      >
                      > The Sindhi are:
                      > n= 21
                      > J1 (M267) 1 4.76% J1
                      > J2a (M410) 4 19.05% J2a
                      > J2b2 (M241) 2 9.52% J2b2
                      > L3 (M357) 1 4.76% L3
                      > Q1a (M378) 1 4.76% Q1b
                      > R1a1 (M017) 11 52.38% R1a1
                      > R2 (M124) 1 4.76% R2
                      >
                      > With the exceptions of having L3, with a noticeably low level of J1, and an
                      > absence of R1b the Sindhi do resemble the Haplogroups of an Ashkenazic
                      > group. I will have to compare haplotypes. Perhaps this is flow along the
                      > silk road.
                      >
                      > Sadly, with this small sample, we can not make diversity comparisons.
                      >
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Rebekah
                      >

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                    • Alessandro Biondo
                      Alfred, what I see it is exactly the contrary: - as you write, all the time we have a well documented gene influx from Central and Northern Asia and Mongolia,
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                        Alfred,

                        what I see it is exactly the contrary:

                        - as you write, all the time we have a well documented gene influx
                        from Central and Northern Asia and Mongolia, like the Turkish invasion
                        of Anatolia (but the same is true for the Former Sovietic Central
                        Asias republics, for the Kalmyks in the Caucasus, for the Hazaras, and
                        so on), we have also at least one fraction of the wealth of
                        haplogroups you can find in those geographical area, not only one. And
                        in the Ashkenazi people this wealthness of asiatic haplogroup doesn't
                        exist.
                        - to affirm that ONLY the Khazarian ruling class, and ALL the
                        Khazarian ruling class, converted to Judaism, maybe it is true, even
                        if these two are two strongly demanding and tight conditions, put
                        together. But to affirm also that the ruling class was only Q, and
                        that all the Q were in the ruling class (and that the others than the
                        rulers were all different than Q), is far from any, proven historical
                        fact: for what it is known about archaelogy, history and genetic, in
                        the history we never had such a genetic "purity", not even at the dawn
                        of the humanity. And the habits of the nomadic people of the steppe,
                        that were always genetically mixed (as demonstrated by the genetic
                        evidence, even of the tested human remains in ancient burials), and
                        where the strongest was the ruler (and the strongest may belong to any
                        haplogroup, he has simply to be the strongest), offer no support to
                        this "genetic purity". The evidence from other Turkic-Mongolic people
                        for sure does not support this "genetic purity" of any class, rulers
                        or commoners, among them.

                        Alessandro.



                        --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Allesandro,
                        >
                        > Isn't it interesting?
                        > This diversity of the Asiatic haplogroups just confirms history
                        > of this people of Turkic stock, and historically recorded
                        > Central/North Asiatic origin.
                        > Khazars was also people of Turkic stock(first as part of GokTurk
                        > Khaganate and later as indenpendent state), but it really
                        > appears that only ruling class converted to Judaism.
                        > It should be noted (as we see) that it can be expected that
                        > current Turkey inherited more reacher heritage then Khazaria.
                        > Turkey is final stage of several earlier Turkic empires,
                        > therefore this more richer genetic legacy in modern Turkey.
                        > Modern Turkey is also based on territory of earlier Eastern
                        > Roman Empire (Byzantinum).
                        > Khazaria was stable state with organised religion, law system and
                        > military force, while those kingdoms emerged and collapsed.
                        > Ashina was first and founding Dynasty of Turks, remained in
                        > Khazaria.
                        > Other Dynasties followed.
                        >
                        > Alfred
                        >
                        >
                        > Citiram Alessandro Felice Biondo <alefbiondo@...>:
                        >
                        > > Alfred,
                        > >
                        > > You said:
                        > >
                        > >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                        > >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                        > >
                        > > the answer is in Cinnioglu: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata
                        > > in Anatolia. On a total of 523 samples there are:
                        > >
                        > > C*-M216 2 samples
                        > > C3-M217 5 samples
                        > > N*-M233 15 samples
                        > > N3a-M178 5 samples
                        > > O3-M122 1 sample
                        > > Q*-M242 9 samples
                        > > Q2-MM25 1 sample
                        > >
                        > > The 9 samples with Q*-M242 exhibit a high haplotype diversity: 1
                        > > sample (number 338) is identical to "our" Q, other 3 are almost equal
                        > > to us, other 5 (6 including the Q2-M25) are quite far from us. Again
                        > > what is interesting in Turkey is the presence of:
                        > > - high haplotype diversity of the Q's;
                        > > - some presence of haplogroups from East and North Asia: 20 N (M233
                        > > and M178) the double of Q*; 7 C (M216 and M217) almost the same
                        > > numbers of Q, 1 O of difficult interpretation.
                        > >
                        > > Alessandro.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@> wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >> Rebekah,
                        > >>
                        > >> You said;
                        > >> "We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers
                        > >> about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the
                        > >> Hazara got their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any
                        > >> group that traces their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000
                        > >> years should have some C."
                        > >>
                        > >> Questions;
                        > >> 1. You think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara got
                        > >> their C from the Mongol hoards.
                        > >> That if fine with me.
                        > >> But You don't think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara
                        > >> got their Q from the Mongol hoards, as well?
                        > >> Or You do?
                        > >>
                        > >> 2. You agree that any group that traces their ancestry to
                        > >> Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.
                        > >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                        > >> Turkic peoples definitely trace origin in Mongolia in last 1500
                        > >> years. Historic fact.
                        > >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> Alfred
                        > >> ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l
                        > > ----------------------
                        > >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                        > >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                        > >> http://shopping.tportal.hr
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l
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                        >
                      • Alessandro Biondo
                        Alfred, no needs to use capital letters or dry words. If something is misunderstood, it happen sometimes, we need only to explain again our thought, in the
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                          Alfred,

                          no needs to use capital letters or dry words. If something is
                          misunderstood, it happen sometimes, we need only to explain again our
                          thought, in the interest of the group.
                          I understand very well your thought, but it is also true that all the
                          data we actually know about every population with a proven Turkic-
                          Mongolic genetic influence (for example Turkish, central asian Turks,
                          Kalmyks, Hazaras, but also centuries old mummies from Central and
                          North Asia) are talking us of a bunch of haplogroups not present
                          today in the Ashkenazi and European gene-pool. This is exactly what
                          the known data told us. That's exactly what I tried to comment.

                          Alessandro.


                          --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Allesandro,
                          >
                          > Please check earlier communication.
                          >
                          > I have NEVER STATED THAT I OR ANYBODY ELSE ASSUME THAT RULING
                          > CLASS OF KHAZARIA WAS CONSISTED ONLY OF Q'S.
                          >
                          > On contrary I assume that both Q and R1a (R1a1), as well others,
                          > was present in Ashina genetic pool.
                          >
                          > But, as for Q, case is most easier to test and prove.
                          >
                          > As for representation of rulers only with Mongolic features that
                          > is the fact, but it don't need to be absolute proof.
                          >
                          > Do You understand me now?
                          >
                          > Alfred
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Citiram Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@...>:
                          >
                          > > Alfred,
                          > >
                          > > what I see it is exactly the contrary:
                          > >
                          > > - as you write, all the time we have a well documented gene influx
                          > > from Central and Northern Asia and Mongolia, like the Turkish
                          invasion
                          > > of Anatolia (but the same is true for the Former Sovietic Central
                          > > Asias republics, for the Kalmyks in the Caucasus, for the
                          Hazaras, and
                          > > so on), we have also at least one fraction of the wealth of
                          > > haplogroups you can find in those geographical area, not only
                          one. And
                          > > in the Ashkenazi people this wealthness of asiatic haplogroup
                          doesn't
                          > > exist.
                          > > - to affirm that ONLY the Khazarian ruling class, and ALL the
                          > > Khazarian ruling class, converted to Judaism, maybe it is true,
                          even
                          > > if these two are two strongly demanding and tight conditions, put
                          > > together. But to affirm also that the ruling class was only Q, and
                          > > that all the Q were in the ruling class (and that the others than
                          the
                          > > rulers were all different than Q), is far from any, proven
                          historical
                          > > fact: for what it is known about archaelogy, history and
                          genetic, in
                          > > the history we never had such a genetic "purity", not even at the
                          dawn
                          > > of the humanity. And the habits of the nomadic people of the
                          steppe,
                          > > that were always genetically mixed (as demonstrated by the genetic
                          > > evidence, even of the tested human remains in ancient burials),
                          and
                          > > where the strongest was the ruler (and the strongest may belong
                          to any
                          > > haplogroup, he has simply to be the strongest), offer no support
                          to
                          > > this "genetic purity". The evidence from other Turkic-Mongolic
                          people
                          > > for sure does not support this "genetic purity" of any class,
                          rulers
                          > > or commoners, among them.
                          > >
                          > > Alessandro.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@> wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >> Allesandro,
                          > >>
                          > >> Isn't it interesting?
                          > >> This diversity of the Asiatic haplogroups just confirms history
                          > >> of this people of Turkic stock, and historically recorded
                          > >> Central/North Asiatic origin.
                          > >> Khazars was also people of Turkic stock(first as part of GokTurk
                          > >> Khaganate and later as indenpendent state), but it really
                          > >> appears that only ruling class converted to Judaism.
                          > >> It should be noted (as we see) that it can be expected that
                          > >> current Turkey inherited more reacher heritage then Khazaria.
                          > >> Turkey is final stage of several earlier Turkic empires,
                          > >> therefore this more richer genetic legacy in modern Turkey.
                          > >> Modern Turkey is also based on territory of earlier Eastern
                          > >> Roman Empire (Byzantinum).
                          > >> Khazaria was stable state with organised religion, law system and
                          > >> military force, while those kingdoms emerged and collapsed.
                          > >> Ashina was first and founding Dynasty of Turks, remained in
                          > >> Khazaria.
                          > >> Other Dynasties followed.
                          > >>
                          > >> Alfred
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> Citiram Alessandro Felice Biondo <alefbiondo@>:
                          > >>
                          > >> > Alfred,
                          > >> >
                          > >> > You said:
                          > >> >
                          > >> >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                          > >> >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                          > >> >
                          > >> > the answer is in Cinnioglu: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype
                          strata
                          > >> > in Anatolia. On a total of 523 samples there are:
                          > >> >
                          > >> > C*-M216 2 samples
                          > >> > C3-M217 5 samples
                          > >> > N*-M233 15 samples
                          > >> > N3a-M178 5 samples
                          > >> > O3-M122 1 sample
                          > >> > Q*-M242 9 samples
                          > >> > Q2-MM25 1 sample
                          > >> >
                          > >> > The 9 samples with Q*-M242 exhibit a high haplotype diversity:
                          1
                          > >> > sample (number 338) is identical to "our" Q, other 3 are
                          almost equal
                          > >> > to us, other 5 (6 including the Q2-M25) are quite far from us.
                          Again
                          > >> > what is interesting in Turkey is the presence of:
                          > >> > - high haplotype diversity of the Q's;
                          > >> > - some presence of haplogroups from East and North Asia: 20 N
                          (M233
                          > >> > and M178) the double of Q*; 7 C (M216 and M217) almost the same
                          > >> > numbers of Q, 1 O of difficult interpretation.
                          > >> >
                          > >> > Alessandro.
                          > >> >
                          > >> >
                          > >> >
                          > >> > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@>
                          wrote:
                          > >> >>
                          > >> >> Rebekah,
                          > >> >>
                          > >> >> You said;
                          > >> >> "We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In
                          papers
                          > >> >> about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the
                          > >> >> Hazara got their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any
                          > >> >> group that traces their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000
                          > >> >> years should have some C."
                          > >> >>
                          > >> >> Questions;
                          > >> >> 1. You think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara got
                          > >> >> their C from the Mongol hoards.
                          > >> >> That if fine with me.
                          > >> >> But You don't think that it is far then to say that maybe
                          Hazara
                          > >> >> got their Q from the Mongol hoards, as well?
                          > >> >> Or You do?
                          > >> >>
                          > >> >> 2. You agree that any group that traces their ancestry to
                          > >> >> Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.
                          > >> >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                          > >> >> Turkic peoples definitely trace origin in Mongolia in last
                          1500
                          > >> >> years. Historic fact.
                          > >> >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                          > >> >>
                          > >> >>
                          > >> >> Alfred
                          > >> >> ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l
                          > >> > ----------------------
                          > >> >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                          > >> >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                          > >> >> http://shopping.tportal.hr
                          > >> >>
                          > >> >
                          > >> >
                          > >> >
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l
                          > > ----------------------
                          > >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                          > >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                          > >> http://shopping.tportal.hr
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l -----------------
                          -----
                          > Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                          > Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                          > http://shopping.tportal.hr
                          >
                        • KRUPA
                          Rebekah, How many Q1b we can find in Europe? And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)? Alfred ... Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Rebekah,

                            How many Q1b we can find in Europe?
                            And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?

                            Alfred
                            ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l ----------------------
                            Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                            Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                            http://shopping.tportal.hr
                          • Rebekah Canada
                            Hi, That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend Alessandro has tested positive. He is from Sicily. Once more people at FTDNA test we be more
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi,

                              That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend Alessandro
                              has tested positive. He is from Sicily. Once more people at FTDNA test
                              we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in Europe
                              but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.

                              Rebekah


                              2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ka.t-com.hr>:
                              > Rebekah,
                              >
                              > How many Q1b we can find in Europe?
                              > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                              >
                              > Alfred
                            • Bob Vick
                              Rebekah, My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all American Vicks will be Q1b. Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment

                                Rebekah,

                                 

                                 My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all American Vicks will be Q1b.

                                 

                                 Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one in this group tested?

                                 

                                 If you are wondering what a Viking Vick is doing on this board. I still see a gap in DNA data that does not exclude the possibility of a later day migration to escape the plagues of Europe . The genetic gap in Mr Lee’s Q in Sweden & the rest of the Norse Q people is just too great to call him the Siberian founder of all Norse source DNA. My Y search matches show the same genetic distance to Norway & Lithuania matches & a 2k to Mr Lee. As you know us Vick’s have an odd selection of markers with no near matches except our family group.

                                 

                                Bob       

                                 


                                From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                                Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:23 AM
                                To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara

                                 

                                Hi,

                                That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend Alessandro
                                has tested positive. He is from Sicily . Once more people at FTDNA test
                                we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in Europe
                                but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.

                                Rebekah

                                2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ ka.t-com. hr>:

                                > Rebekah,
                                >
                                > How many Q1b we can find in Europe ?
                                > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                                >
                                > Alfred

                              • Alessandro Biondo
                                Bob I am a reader of DNA Forums and of RootsWeb GENEALOGY DNA, so I already knew of James Larry Vick and of his results, because he was so helpful to publish
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Bob

                                  I am a reader of DNA Forums and of RootsWeb GENEALOGY DNA, so I
                                  already knew of James Larry Vick and of his results, because he was
                                  so helpful to publish here his result (I hope he is the same person).
                                  I know that now he decided also to test with 23andme and to share his
                                  Y-DNA result with the community of the genetic genealogist allowing
                                  Ann Turner to publish his result in her excel file: maybe compare the
                                  23andme result of a Q with our distant cousins R1 will be useful to
                                  better ubderstand what are the mutations shared between Q and R1 and
                                  what mutations are Q specific. What it is also interesting is that I
                                  see some Vick on the Q project web site administred by Rebekah, and
                                  all they are in the group 1 of the classification of Rebekah: so
                                  maybe Q1b-M378 is not specific to one group, but is shared among
                                  different groups (for group here I mean the group based on the
                                  Rebekah classification, not ethnical or geographical groups). If this
                                  is true, in M378 we have a quite ancient SNP (more than 2000 years),
                                  not useful to fix our more recent roots, but useful only to see a
                                  route of our ancestors. In effect from all the data I get about Q in
                                  Scandinavia (the Karlsonn paper's Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden,
                                  the data on yhrd, the data of the Scandinavian DNA project of FTDNA
                                  (administred by Rebekah) I see that the typical haplotype is far from
                                  mine of 2000-3000 years: much less than others Q, but not so recent
                                  as the common ancestor of just the group 3. Obviously these are
                                  thoughts that can be confirmed or totally rejected when
                                  representatives of the different type of Q (based on the haplotype,
                                  the STRs) will have their deep clade test. I hope many Qs of the
                                  different type will accept to have this deep clade test because it
                                  will be the first step toward a better understaing of our
                                  similarities and difference.

                                  Alessandro.


                                  --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Vick" <Vick@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Rebekah,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all
                                  American
                                  > Vicks will be Q1b.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one in this
                                  group
                                  > tested?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > If you are wondering what a Viking Vick is doing on this board. I
                                  still see
                                  > a gap in DNA data that does not exclude the possibility of a later
                                  day
                                  > migration to escape the plagues of Europe. The genetic gap in Mr
                                  Lee's Q in
                                  > Sweden & the rest of the Norse Q people is just too great to call
                                  him the
                                  > Siberian founder of all Norse source DNA. My Y search matches show
                                  the same
                                  > genetic distance to Norway & Lithuania matches & a 2k to Mr Lee. As
                                  you know
                                  > us Vick's have an odd selection of markers with no near matches
                                  except our
                                  > family group.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Bob
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ashkenazi-
                                  Q@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                                  > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:23 AM
                                  > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi,
                                  >
                                  > That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend
                                  Alessandro
                                  > has tested positive. He is from Sicily. Once more people at FTDNA
                                  test
                                  > we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in
                                  Europe
                                  > but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.
                                  >
                                  > Rebekah
                                  >
                                  > 2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ <mailto:mladen.krupa%40ka.t-com.hr>
                                  > ka.t-com.hr>:
                                  > > Rebekah,
                                  > >
                                  > > How many Q1b we can find in Europe?
                                  > > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                                  > >
                                  > > Alfred
                                  >
                                • Alessandro Biondo
                                  Just to add that if the Q1b-M378 is shared between the groups 1 and 3 of the Rebekah classification, maybe we found the western SNP of Q, because all the other
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Just to add that if the Q1b-M378 is shared between the groups 1 and 3
                                    of the Rebekah classification, maybe we found the western SNP of Q,
                                    because all the other SNP are only in Central and East Asia (and
                                    America). Maybe this fact has some relevance. But these are pure
                                    speculations if we don't have many Qs with their deep clade test:
                                    it's only a thought that was born when I observed that two person
                                    tested positive to M378 have different haplotype.

                                    Alessandro.


                                    --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Alessandro Biondo"
                                    <alefbiondo@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Bob
                                    >
                                    > I am a reader of DNA Forums and of RootsWeb GENEALOGY DNA, so I
                                    > already knew of James Larry Vick and of his results, because he was
                                    > so helpful to publish here his result (I hope he is the same
                                    person).
                                    > I know that now he decided also to test with 23andme and to share
                                    his
                                    > Y-DNA result with the community of the genetic genealogist allowing
                                    > Ann Turner to publish his result in her excel file: maybe compare
                                    the
                                    > 23andme result of a Q with our distant cousins R1 will be useful to
                                    > better ubderstand what are the mutations shared between Q and R1
                                    and
                                    > what mutations are Q specific. What it is also interesting is that
                                    I
                                    > see some Vick on the Q project web site administred by Rebekah, and
                                    > all they are in the group 1 of the classification of Rebekah: so
                                    > maybe Q1b-M378 is not specific to one group, but is shared among
                                    > different groups (for group here I mean the group based on the
                                    > Rebekah classification, not ethnical or geographical groups). If
                                    this
                                    > is true, in M378 we have a quite ancient SNP (more than 2000
                                    years),
                                    > not useful to fix our more recent roots, but useful only to see a
                                    > route of our ancestors. In effect from all the data I get about Q
                                    in
                                    > Scandinavia (the Karlsonn paper's Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden,
                                    > the data on yhrd, the data of the Scandinavian DNA project of FTDNA
                                    > (administred by Rebekah) I see that the typical haplotype is far
                                    from
                                    > mine of 2000-3000 years: much less than others Q, but not so recent
                                    > as the common ancestor of just the group 3. Obviously these are
                                    > thoughts that can be confirmed or totally rejected when
                                    > representatives of the different type of Q (based on the haplotype,
                                    > the STRs) will have their deep clade test. I hope many Qs of the
                                    > different type will accept to have this deep clade test because it
                                    > will be the first step toward a better understaing of our
                                    > similarities and difference.
                                    >
                                    > Alessandro.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Vick" <Vick@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Rebekah,
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all
                                    > American
                                    > > Vicks will be Q1b.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one in
                                    this
                                    > group
                                    > > tested?
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > If you are wondering what a Viking Vick is doing on this board.
                                    I
                                    > still see
                                    > > a gap in DNA data that does not exclude the possibility of a
                                    later
                                    > day
                                    > > migration to escape the plagues of Europe. The genetic gap in Mr
                                    > Lee's Q in
                                    > > Sweden & the rest of the Norse Q people is just too great to call
                                    > him the
                                    > > Siberian founder of all Norse source DNA. My Y search matches
                                    show
                                    > the same
                                    > > genetic distance to Norway & Lithuania matches & a 2k to Mr Lee.
                                    As
                                    > you know
                                    > > us Vick's have an odd selection of markers with no near matches
                                    > except our
                                    > > family group.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Bob
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > _____
                                    > >
                                    > > From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ashkenazi-
                                    > Q@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    > > Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                                    > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:23 AM
                                    > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi,
                                    > >
                                    > > That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend
                                    > Alessandro
                                    > > has tested positive. He is from Sicily. Once more people at FTDNA
                                    > test
                                    > > we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in
                                    > Europe
                                    > > but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.
                                    > >
                                    > > Rebekah
                                    > >
                                    > > 2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ <mailto:mladen.krupa%40ka.t-com.hr>
                                    > > ka.t-com.hr>:
                                    > > > Rebekah,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > How many Q1b we can find in Europe?
                                    > > > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Alfred
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Bob Vick
                                    Alessandro, Yes it is the same James Larry Vick; I will meet him tomorrow with another 100 Vick s at a family reunion. It will be an interesting journey into
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment

                                      Alessandro,

                                       

                                       Yes it is the same James Larry Vick; I will meet him tomorrow with another 100 Vick’s at a family reunion. It will be an interesting journey into the effects of Mt & Y mixes in appearances of Q1b Vicks.

                                       

                                       Our line came to America in 1650 by Joseph Vick. We match none of the English or German Vick’s tested so far. We do show some near matches on 6 markers in Norway , however prior to 1650 many Europeans escaped north to avoid plagues & religious persecution. In my research it seems the genetic connections have a gap in genetic distance from 400 – 600 years back to the 2000 years back you mentioned.

                                       

                                       There are a few of us Vick’s that “feel” a Jewish connection; the science does not point there yet. But we know that many early American immigrants just simulated into the culture, societies & religions around them. There are a group of early American immigrants that all have that Q1b, yet show no close Vick connection. That fact makes me believe they all followed a long similar migration pattern, maybe from the same roots as the Ashkenazi Q.    

                                       

                                       I like your idea on western Q1b; it makes more sense than walking the Siberian ice. Yet I cannot ignore the similarities in horse DNA from Siberia & the Norwegian horses. Maybe there were two migrations of Q, one from the east & one from the south & we know the American Indian Q’s migrated yet another way. I do not know if you have read about similar American Indian & Jewish customs recorded in early America . Some appear to be hoaxes, yet some seem to have some validity. I don’t think anyone ever figured out the 10 Commandments written in ancient Hebrew found in the American West.

                                       http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/loslunas.html

                                       http://www.hope-of-israel.org/hebinusa.htm

                                       

                                      Cheers, Bob Vick      

                                       

                                       


                                      From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Alessandro Biondo
                                      Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:01 PM
                                      To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara

                                       

                                      Just to add that if the Q1b-M378 is shared between the groups 1 and 3
                                      of the Rebekah classification, maybe we found the western SNP of Q,
                                      because all the other SNP are only in Central and East Asia (and
                                      America ). Maybe this fact has some relevance. But these are pure
                                      speculations if we don't have many Qs with their deep clade test:
                                      it's only a thought that was born when I observed that two person
                                      tested positive to M378 have different haplotype.

                                      Alessandro.

                                      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "Alessandro Biondo"
                                      <alefbiondo@ ...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > Bob
                                      >
                                      > I am a reader of DNA Forums and of RootsWeb GENEALOGY DNA, so I
                                      > already knew of James Larry Vick and of his results, because he was
                                      > so helpful to publish here his result (I hope he is the same
                                      person).
                                      > I know that now he decided also to test with 23andme and to share
                                      his
                                      > Y-DNA result with the community of the genetic genealogist allowing
                                      > Ann Turner to publish his result in her excel file: maybe compare
                                      the
                                      > 23andme result of a Q with our distant cousins R1 will be useful to
                                      > better ubderstand what are the mutations shared between Q and R1
                                      and
                                      > what mutations are Q specific. What it is also interesting is that
                                      I
                                      > see some Vick on the Q project web site administred by Rebekah, and
                                      > all they are in the group 1 of the classification of Rebekah: so
                                      > maybe Q1b-M378 is not specific to one group, but is shared among
                                      > different groups (for group here I mean the group based on the
                                      > Rebekah classification, not ethnical or geographical groups). If
                                      this
                                      > is true, in M378 we have a quite ancient SNP (more than 2000
                                      years),
                                      > not useful to fix our more recent roots, but useful only to see a
                                      > route of our ancestors. In effect from all the data I get about Q
                                      in
                                      > Scandinavia (the Karlsonn paper's Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden,
                                      > the data on yhrd, the data of the Scandinavian DNA project of FTDNA
                                      > (administred by Rebekah) I see that the typical haplotype is far
                                      from
                                      > mine of 2000-3000 years: much less than others Q, but not so recent
                                      > as the common ancestor of just the group 3. Obviously these are
                                      > thoughts that can be confirmed or totally rejected when
                                      > representatives of the different type of Q (based on the haplotype,
                                      > the STRs) will have their deep clade test. I hope many Qs of the
                                      > different type will accept to have this deep clade test because it
                                      > will be the first step toward a better understaing of our
                                      > similarities and difference.
                                      >
                                      > Alessandro.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com,
                                      "Bob Vick" <Vick@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Rebekah,
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all
                                      > American
                                      > > Vicks will be Q1b.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one in
                                      this
                                      > group
                                      > > tested?
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > If you are wondering what a Viking Vick is doing on this board.
                                      I
                                      > still see
                                      > > a gap in DNA data that does not exclude the possibility of a
                                      later
                                      > day
                                      > > migration to escape the plagues of Europe .
                                      The genetic gap in Mr
                                      > Lee's Q in
                                      > > Sweden
                                      & the rest of the Norse Q people is just too great to call
                                      > him the
                                      > > Siberian founder of all Norse source DNA. My Y search matches
                                      show
                                      > the same
                                      > > genetic distance to Norway
                                      & Lithuania matches & a 2k to Mr Lee.
                                      As
                                      > you know
                                      > > us Vick's have an odd selection of markers with no near matches
                                      > except our
                                      > > family group.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Bob
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > _____
                                      > >
                                      > > From: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
                                      [mailto:Ashkenazi-
                                      > Q@yahoogroups. com] On
                                      > > Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:23 AM
                                      > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi,
                                      > >
                                      > > That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend
                                      > Alessandro
                                      > > has tested positive. He is from
                                      w:st="on">Sicily . Once more people at FTDNA
                                      > test
                                      > > we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in
                                      > Europe
                                      > > but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.
                                      > >
                                      > > Rebekah
                                      > >
                                      > > 2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ <mailto:mladen. krupa%40ka. t-com.hr>
                                      > > ka.t-com.hr> :
                                      > > > Rebekah,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > How many Q1b we can find in Europe ?
                                      > > > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Alfred
                                      > >
                                      >

                                    • Alessandro Biondo
                                      Bob, excuse me, about the 2000-3000 years I was not enough clear: when I talk about 2000-3000 years I mean my TMRCA from the typical Swedish Q haplotype, as
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                        Bob,

                                        excuse me, about the 2000-3000 years I was not enough clear: when I
                                        talk about 2000-3000 years I mean my TMRCA from the typical Swedish Q
                                        haplotype, as found in the Scandianavian Y project administred by
                                        Rebekah, and in the Q groups 1 and 2 of the Q project, and in the Q
                                        YDNA found in the Karlsson paper's: Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden.
                                        All the haplotypes I found in these works, if analyzed through the
                                        mymcgee web site, give me an estimate of 2000-3000 years for the
                                        common ancestor between me (I am in the group 3 of Rebekah) and the
                                        modal of each of these groups: the years differs according the values
                                        I used for the mutation rate and for the years/generations. As for
                                        reference, using the same values, when I compare myself to the modal
                                        of the group 3 (my group), I have an estimate of 600-1000 years from
                                        the modal.

                                        I hope this can help.

                                        Alessandro.


                                        --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Vick" <Vick@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Alessandro,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yes it is the same James Larry Vick; I will meet him tomorrow with
                                        another
                                        > 100 Vick's at a family reunion. It will be an interesting journey
                                        into the
                                        > effects of Mt & Y mixes in appearances of Q1b Vicks.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Our line came to America in 1650 by Joseph Vick. We match none of the
                                        > English or German Vick's tested so far. We do show some near matches
                                        on 6
                                        > markers in Norway, however prior to 1650 many Europeans escaped north to
                                        > avoid plagues & religious persecution. In my research it seems the
                                        genetic
                                        > connections have a gap in genetic distance from 400 - 600 years back
                                        to the
                                        > 2000 years back you mentioned.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > There are a few of us Vick's that "feel" a Jewish connection; the
                                        science
                                        > does not point there yet. But we know that many early American
                                        immigrants
                                        > just simulated into the culture, societies & religions around them.
                                        There
                                        > are a group of early American immigrants that all have that Q1b, yet
                                        show no
                                        > close Vick connection. That fact makes me believe they all followed
                                        a long
                                        > similar migration pattern, maybe from the same roots as the
                                        Ashkenazi Q.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I like your idea on western Q1b; it makes more sense than walking the
                                        > Siberian ice. Yet I cannot ignore the similarities in horse DNA from
                                        Siberia
                                        > & the Norwegian horses. Maybe there were two migrations of Q, one
                                        from the
                                        > east & one from the south & we know the American Indian Q's migrated yet
                                        > another way. I do not know if you have read about similar American
                                        Indian &
                                        > Jewish customs recorded in early America. Some appear to be hoaxes,
                                        yet some
                                        > seem to have some validity. I don't think anyone ever figured out the 10
                                        > Commandments written in ancient Hebrew found in the American West.
                                        >
                                        > http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/loslunas.html
                                        >
                                        > http://www.hope-of-israel.org/hebinusa.htm
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Cheers, Bob Vick
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > _____
                                        >
                                        > From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                        [mailto:Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        > Behalf Of Alessandro Biondo
                                        > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:01 PM
                                        > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Just to add that if the Q1b-M378 is shared between the groups 1 and 3
                                        > of the Rebekah classification, maybe we found the western SNP of Q,
                                        > because all the other SNP are only in Central and East Asia (and
                                        > America). Maybe this fact has some relevance. But these are pure
                                        > speculations if we don't have many Qs with their deep clade test:
                                        > it's only a thought that was born when I observed that two person
                                        > tested positive to M378 have different haplotype.
                                        >
                                        > Alessandro.
                                        >
                                        > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        yahoogroups.com,
                                        > "Alessandro Biondo"
                                        > <alefbiondo@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Bob
                                        > >
                                        > > I am a reader of DNA Forums and of RootsWeb GENEALOGY DNA, so I
                                        > > already knew of James Larry Vick and of his results, because he was
                                        > > so helpful to publish here his result (I hope he is the same
                                        > person).
                                        > > I know that now he decided also to test with 23andme and to share
                                        > his
                                        > > Y-DNA result with the community of the genetic genealogist allowing
                                        > > Ann Turner to publish his result in her excel file: maybe compare
                                        > the
                                        > > 23andme result of a Q with our distant cousins R1 will be useful to
                                        > > better ubderstand what are the mutations shared between Q and R1
                                        > and
                                        > > what mutations are Q specific. What it is also interesting is that
                                        > I
                                        > > see some Vick on the Q project web site administred by Rebekah, and
                                        > > all they are in the group 1 of the classification of Rebekah: so
                                        > > maybe Q1b-M378 is not specific to one group, but is shared among
                                        > > different groups (for group here I mean the group based on the
                                        > > Rebekah classification, not ethnical or geographical groups). If
                                        > this
                                        > > is true, in M378 we have a quite ancient SNP (more than 2000
                                        > years),
                                        > > not useful to fix our more recent roots, but useful only to see a
                                        > > route of our ancestors. In effect from all the data I get about Q
                                        > in
                                        > > Scandinavia (the Karlsonn paper's Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden,
                                        > > the data on yhrd, the data of the Scandinavian DNA project of FTDNA
                                        > > (administred by Rebekah) I see that the typical haplotype is far
                                        > from
                                        > > mine of 2000-3000 years: much less than others Q, but not so recent
                                        > > as the common ancestor of just the group 3. Obviously these are
                                        > > thoughts that can be confirmed or totally rejected when
                                        > > representatives of the different type of Q (based on the haplotype,
                                        > > the STRs) will have their deep clade test. I hope many Qs of the
                                        > > different type will accept to have this deep clade test because it
                                        > > will be the first step toward a better understaing of our
                                        > > similarities and difference.
                                        > >
                                        > > Alessandro.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com, "Bob Vick" <Vick@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Rebekah,
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all
                                        > > American
                                        > > > Vicks will be Q1b.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one in
                                        > this
                                        > > group
                                        > > > tested?
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > If you are wondering what a Viking Vick is doing on this board.
                                        > I
                                        > > still see
                                        > > > a gap in DNA data that does not exclude the possibility of a
                                        > later
                                        > > day
                                        > > > migration to escape the plagues of Europe. The genetic gap in Mr
                                        > > Lee's Q in
                                        > > > Sweden & the rest of the Norse Q people is just too great to call
                                        > > him the
                                        > > > Siberian founder of all Norse source DNA. My Y search matches
                                        > show
                                        > > the same
                                        > > > genetic distance to Norway & Lithuania matches & a 2k to Mr Lee.
                                        > As
                                        > > you know
                                        > > > us Vick's have an odd selection of markers with no near matches
                                        > > except our
                                        > > > family group.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Bob
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > _____
                                        > > >
                                        > > > From: Ashkenazi-Q@ <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ashkenazi-
                                        > > Q@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q%40yahoogroups.com> com] On
                                        > > > Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                                        > > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:23 AM
                                        > > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@ <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hi,
                                        > > >
                                        > > > That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend
                                        > > Alessandro
                                        > > > has tested positive. He is from Sicily. Once more people at FTDNA
                                        > > test
                                        > > > we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in
                                        > > Europe
                                        > > > but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Rebekah
                                        > > >
                                        > > > 2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ <mailto:mladen.krupa%40ka.t-com.hr>
                                        > > > ka.t-com.hr>:
                                        > > > > Rebekah,
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > How many Q1b we can find in Europe?
                                        > > > > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Alfred
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Rebekah Canada
                                        Alessandro, How many markers are you using with the mymcgee web site? Regards, Rebekah
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                          Alessandro,

                                          How many markers are you using with the mymcgee web site?

                                          Regards,
                                          Rebekah
                                        • Alessandro Biondo
                                          Rebekah, for the 2 ftdna project you lead, I used all the markers available for all the members (very easy task to download them in excel, and from here upload
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                            Rebekah,

                                            for the 2 ftdna project you lead, I used all the markers available for
                                            all the members (very easy task to download them in excel, and from
                                            here upload to mymcgee), for the Karlsson paper the 9 STR published are:
                                            DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385a DYS385b DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II.

                                            In the mymcgee I used both the Ftdna and the McDonald as Mutation
                                            rate, and I used 25 years as years/generation.

                                            I compared myself to the modal of other groups, but I did not make
                                            comparisons between the groups.

                                            Regards.


                                            --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Rebekah Canada"
                                            <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Alessandro,
                                            >
                                            > How many markers are you using with the mymcgee web site?
                                            >
                                            > Regards,
                                            > Rebekah
                                            >
                                          • Rebekah Canada
                                            Alessandro, Yes, I have used mymcgee.:-) I ask because I believe that the 9 and 12 marker sets underestimate the common ancestor calculation. For group 3/4
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                              Alessandro,

                                              Yes, I have used mymcgee.:-) I ask because I believe that the 9 and 12
                                              marker sets underestimate the common ancestor calculation. For group
                                              3/4 things may be very off as often only those who have exact matches
                                              upgrade to more markers. So it is "close' cousins who are testing and
                                              shifting the results.

                                              Regards,
                                              Rebekah
                                            • Alessandro Biondo
                                              Rebekah, I agree with you that mymcgee it is not a perfect tool, and moreover that a big problem we face it is the quantity and quality of the statistical
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                                Rebekah,

                                                I agree with you that mymcgee it is not a perfect tool, and moreover
                                                that a big problem we face it is the quantity and quality of the
                                                statistical samples, both for the number of markers tested and for
                                                the number of samples (that it is the most important factor to impact
                                                on the way the modal is build). I also observed that if I use few
                                                markers I am less distant than if I use more markers. For these
                                                reasons I give no absolute value to the number of years I can estimate
                                                with it: anway it can give us some useful indications, even if it is
                                                important to clarify that it is necessary to use these results with
                                                caution, without losing the general frame and the question of the
                                                quality and quantity of the samples to be compare.

                                                A more complete result from my research (with Ftdna as mutation rate,
                                                and 25 years as years/generation)comparing the individual samples is:
                                                Scandinavian Q_YDNA: from 1475 to 2450 years, the 6 67 marker samples
                                                are at 1725/2250 years
                                                Group 1: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 8 67 marker samples are at
                                                2075-2450 years
                                                Group 2: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 7 67 markers are at 1725-2075 years

                                                It is only an example, and I repeat, no absolute meaning to these
                                                data, but maybe, as I hope, some useful information. With all the
                                                comparision we can do, and with all the needed cautions, maybe if I
                                                think of a distance from me and the members of Swedish-group1-group2
                                                members a bit more than double (a bit less than triple) than the
                                                distance that divide me from the other members of the group 3 (for
                                                which a TMRCA of approx 1000 years seems to be prevaling), I am
                                                thinking a not so unlikely fact.
                                                For sure it will be a much more interesting thing to discover if
                                                really we (the group 1/2 and 3/4) share the same M378 mutation of the
                                                Swedish-group1-group2 group, and this mutation maybe split all of us
                                                from the prevaling Asian subclades. But this is only a hazardous and
                                                untimely suggestion until many Q of different branches will have their
                                                deep clade test done.

                                                Regards.

                                                Alessandro.


                                                --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Rebekah Canada"
                                                <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Alessandro,
                                                >
                                                > Yes, I have used mymcgee.:-) I ask because I believe that the 9 and 12
                                                > marker sets underestimate the common ancestor calculation. For group
                                                > 3/4 things may be very off as often only those who have exact matches
                                                > upgrade to more markers. So it is "close' cousins who are testing and
                                                > shifting the results.
                                                >
                                                > Regards,
                                                > Rebekah
                                                >
                                              • Alessandro Biondo
                                                Rebekah and all, excuse me: when I was reading my previous post I observed a possible ... All the years I talked are the distance from me of these
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                                  Rebekah and all,

                                                  excuse me: when I was reading my previous post I observed a possible
                                                  source of misunderstanding. Concerning the following:

                                                  >Scandinavian Q_YDNA: from 1475 to 2450 years, the 6 67 marker samples
                                                  >are at 1725/2250 years
                                                  >Group 1: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 8 67 marker samples are at
                                                  >2075-2450 years
                                                  >Group 2: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 7 67 markers are at 1725-2075
                                                  >years

                                                  All the years I talked are the distance from me of these
                                                  samples-groups, not the TMRCA of the group.

                                                  Excuse me again if I was not so clear.

                                                  Alessandro.


                                                  --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Alessandro Biondo"
                                                  <alefbiondo@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Rebekah,
                                                  >
                                                  > I agree with you that mymcgee it is not a perfect tool, and moreover
                                                  > that a big problem we face it is the quantity and quality of the
                                                  > statistical samples, both for the number of markers tested and for
                                                  > the number of samples (that it is the most important factor to impact
                                                  > on the way the modal is build). I also observed that if I use few
                                                  > markers I am less distant than if I use more markers. For these
                                                  > reasons I give no absolute value to the number of years I can estimate
                                                  > with it: anway it can give us some useful indications, even if it is
                                                  > important to clarify that it is necessary to use these results with
                                                  > caution, without losing the general frame and the question of the
                                                  > quality and quantity of the samples to be compare.
                                                  >
                                                  > A more complete result from my research (with Ftdna as mutation rate,
                                                  > and 25 years as years/generation)comparing the individual samples is:
                                                  > Scandinavian Q_YDNA: from 1475 to 2450 years, the 6 67 marker samples
                                                  > are at 1725/2250 years
                                                  > Group 1: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 8 67 marker samples are at
                                                  > 2075-2450 years
                                                  > Group 2: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 7 67 markers are at 1725-2075
                                                  years
                                                  >
                                                  > It is only an example, and I repeat, no absolute meaning to these
                                                  > data, but maybe, as I hope, some useful information. With all the
                                                  > comparision we can do, and with all the needed cautions, maybe if I
                                                  > think of a distance from me and the members of Swedish-group1-group2
                                                  > members a bit more than double (a bit less than triple) than the
                                                  > distance that divide me from the other members of the group 3 (for
                                                  > which a TMRCA of approx 1000 years seems to be prevaling), I am
                                                  > thinking a not so unlikely fact.
                                                  > For sure it will be a much more interesting thing to discover if
                                                  > really we (the group 1/2 and 3/4) share the same M378 mutation of the
                                                  > Swedish-group1-group2 group, and this mutation maybe split all of us
                                                  > from the prevaling Asian subclades. But this is only a hazardous and
                                                  > untimely suggestion until many Q of different branches will have their
                                                  > deep clade test done.
                                                  >
                                                  > Regards.
                                                  >
                                                  > Alessandro.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Rebekah Canada"
                                                  > <rebekahthorn@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Alessandro,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Yes, I have used mymcgee.:-) I ask because I believe that the 9 and 12
                                                  > > marker sets underestimate the common ancestor calculation. For group
                                                  > > 3/4 things may be very off as often only those who have exact matches
                                                  > > upgrade to more markers. So it is "close' cousins who are testing and
                                                  > > shifting the results.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Regards,
                                                  > > Rebekah
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • Rebekah Canada
                                                  Alessandro, If you want to get more complicated... Try putting in the modal for the Dimond family and one for each of the Sizemore families. Try it first for
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                                    Alessandro,

                                                    If you want to get more complicated... Try putting in the modal for
                                                    the Dimond family and one for each of the Sizemore families.

                                                    Try it first for those six marker that the old papers used, then for
                                                    12, then for 25, and 37, and finally 67.

                                                    Regards,
                                                    Rebekah
                                                  • Alessandro Biondo
                                                    Rebekah, what I see if I play this strange game is that in this case the more are the marker, the closer are the samples in term of TMRCA, even if they belong
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                                      Rebekah,

                                                      what I see if I play this strange game is that in this case the more
                                                      are the marker, the closer are the samples in term of TMRCA, even if
                                                      they belong to different haplogroups.
                                                      I think that in general, clustering a group of sample can results in
                                                      some dubious cases anytime we face with not pure or not
                                                      straightforward sample.
                                                      Anyway we need to rely on the tools we have, it is only important to
                                                      know the weak point of every tool as well the strong points, and to
                                                      extract from every tool only what they can.

                                                      Regards.

                                                      Alessandro.


                                                      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Rebekah Canada"
                                                      <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Alessandro,
                                                      >
                                                      > If you want to get more complicated... Try putting in the modal for
                                                      > the Dimond family and one for each of the Sizemore families.
                                                      >
                                                      > Try it first for those six marker that the old papers used, then for
                                                      > 12, then for 25, and 37, and finally 67.
                                                      >
                                                      > Regards,
                                                      > Rebekah
                                                      >
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