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Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Sindhi and Hazara

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  • KRUPA
    Rebekah, We will call Q1b Mongol, because whole Q is Mongol.But it is interesting that this peoples are considered to be originaly from Mongolia. Presence of
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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      Rebekah,

      We will call Q1b Mongol, because whole Q is Mongol.But it is
      interesting that this peoples are considered to be originaly
      from Mongolia. Presence of Q, O and C confirms this.
      Other comes "by the way". The Silk Road of course.
      That is my point from very beginning (that is why I am saying
      "recent" Asiatic origin, Khazaria was on one end of this way).
      And it is very interesting emerging similarities with Hazara,
      Sindhi and Ashkenazi (percentage of Q's) and presence of Q1b in
      particular.
      If we say similarities between possible K-Hazars, Hazara and
      Sindhi sounds more normal, isnt it?

      I have Q1b in exact matches list,as well in further mutations. I
      see Q1b in others lists as well.

      Rebekah, I just want to say that now we have more and more clear
      and elaborated picture about path of our ancestors and who they
      was.
      Nothing is final, naturally!

      Your weight is on biological side (and You contribution and
      knowledge is huge!), my perhaps on comparison of facts,
      particulary historic and personals.

      Alfred



      Citiram Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@...>:

      > Hi,
      >
      > The Sindhi and Hazara samples come from Sengupta 2006. I have placed the new
      > YCC 2008 <http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/2008-HaploChart_GR_lores.pdf>names
      > after the percentages. If we are going to call Q1b Mongol because it
      > is found in the Hazara then we would have to say the same thing of all these
      > other Haplogroups.
      >
      > The Hazara are:
      > n=22
      > C3 (M217) 10 45.45% C3
      > R1b2b (M073) 6 27.27% R1b1b1
      > Q1 (M120) 1 4.55% Q1a1
      > Q1a (M378) 1 4.55% Q1b
      > I1c2 (M170\223\379) 1 4.55% I2b2
      > J2a (M410) 1 4.55% J2a
      > O3 (M122) 2 9.09% O3
      >
      > The Sindhi are:
      > n= 21
      > J1 (M267) 1 4.76% J1
      > J2a (M410) 4 19.05% J2a
      > J2b2 (M241) 2 9.52% J2b2
      > L3 (M357) 1 4.76% L3
      > Q1a (M378) 1 4.76% Q1b
      > R1a1 (M017) 11 52.38% R1a1
      > R2 (M124) 1 4.76% R2
      >
      > With the exceptions of having L3, with a noticeably low level of J1, and an
      > absence of R1b the Sindhi do resemble the Haplogroups of an Ashkenazic
      > group. I will have to compare haplotypes. Perhaps this is flow along the
      > silk road.
      >
      > Sadly, with this small sample, we can not make diversity comparisons.
      >
      >
      > Regards,
      > Rebekah
      >


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    • Alessandro Felice Biondo
      Alfred, I think that if you define Ashkenazi Q as of mongolian origin, we need also to explain why other mongolic haplogroups (notably the typical mongolian
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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        Alfred,

        I think that if you define Ashkenazi Q as of "mongolian" origin, we
        need also to explain why other mongolic haplogroups (notably the
        typical mongolian C/C3, that is well represented in the Hazata people
        and in other central asian populations) are not present in today's
        Ashkenazi gene pool; moreover in general in Europe we lack totally the
        C/C3 haplogroup, but we have Q ("our" Q). For example in Europe we
        have populations with a proved gene influx from Central-East Asia and
        in particular from Siberia (the Finns and the Magyars), and these
        populations have the mark of their origin in the Y chromosome that
        show the N haplogroup. Maybe it is significant that we have no
        Remarkable presence of Q ("our" Q) in these european population
        (excluding Hungarian Ashkenazi, as showed by Dr. Behar in his papers),
        even if in Siberia N and Q are living side by side.

        Alessandro.


        --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
        >
        > Rebekah,
        >
        > We will call Q1b Mongol, because whole Q is Mongol.But it is
        > interesting that this peoples are considered to be originaly
        > from Mongolia. Presence of Q, O and C confirms this.
        > Other comes "by the way". The Silk Road of course.
        > That is my point from very beginning (that is why I am saying
        > "recent" Asiatic origin, Khazaria was on one end of this way).
        > And it is very interesting emerging similarities with Hazara,
        > Sindhi and Ashkenazi (percentage of Q's) and presence of Q1b in
        > particular.
        > If we say similarities between possible K-Hazars, Hazara and
        > Sindhi sounds more normal, isnt it?
        >
        > I have Q1b in exact matches list,as well in further mutations. I
        > see Q1b in others lists as well.
        >
        > Rebekah, I just want to say that now we have more and more clear
        > and elaborated picture about path of our ancestors and who they
        > was.
        > Nothing is final, naturally!
        >
        > Your weight is on biological side (and You contribution and
        > knowledge is huge!), my perhaps on comparison of facts,
        > particulary historic and personals.
        >
        > Alfred
        >
        >
        >
        > Citiram Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@...>:
        >
        > > Hi,
        > >
        > > The Sindhi and Hazara samples come from Sengupta 2006. I have
        placed the new
        > > YCC 2008
        <http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/2008-HaploChart_GR_lores.pdf>names
        > > after the percentages. If we are going to call Q1b Mongol because it
        > > is found in the Hazara then we would have to say the same thing of
        all these
        > > other Haplogroups.
        > >
        > > The Hazara are:
        > > n=22
        > > C3 (M217) 10 45.45% C3
        > > R1b2b (M073) 6 27.27% R1b1b1
        > > Q1 (M120) 1 4.55% Q1a1
        > > Q1a (M378) 1 4.55% Q1b
        > > I1c2 (M170\223\379) 1 4.55% I2b2
        > > J2a (M410) 1 4.55% J2a
        > > O3 (M122) 2 9.09% O3
        > >
        > > The Sindhi are:
        > > n= 21
        > > J1 (M267) 1 4.76% J1
        > > J2a (M410) 4 19.05% J2a
        > > J2b2 (M241) 2 9.52% J2b2
        > > L3 (M357) 1 4.76% L3
        > > Q1a (M378) 1 4.76% Q1b
        > > R1a1 (M017) 11 52.38% R1a1
        > > R2 (M124) 1 4.76% R2
        > >
        > > With the exceptions of having L3, with a noticeably low level of
        J1, and an
        > > absence of R1b the Sindhi do resemble the Haplogroups of an Ashkenazic
        > > group. I will have to compare haplotypes. Perhaps this is flow
        along the
        > > silk road.
        > >
        > > Sadly, with this small sample, we can not make diversity comparisons.
        > >
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > > Rebekah
        > >
        >
        >
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      • KRUPA
        Allesandro, Simple is that to explain if we know history of Khazars. They were part of early Turkic tribes who lived separately from others /Hungars and
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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          Allesandro,

          Simple is that to explain if we know history of Khazars.
          They were part of early Turkic tribes who lived separately from
          others /Hungars and Finnish are completely different story,
          geneticaly and historicaly/, but under Chinese domination in
          first half of 1st millenium.

          In particular that confirms reports of Ashina Clan as people
          ,some sub-tribe, who emerged on south side of Altay (we know
          even microlocation-today it falls in borders of Turkestan of
          China). As considered to be sacred and semi-divine, special
          heavenly mandated caste, they didn't mixed too much with others
          /today in Mongolia we have 4% of Q/.

          When I say others- in first place I have in mind Chinese
          population and Mongolians (as we know them today). They are main
          carriers of C and O.
          Later history proves Mongols as deadly enemies of Khazars.

          Ashina moved to Khazaria in mid 7th century, trough the Silk
          Road.
          In Uzbekistan in Turkmenistan /Silk Road route/ we have
          relatively largest number of individuals with Q mutation /up to
          15% of total population/.

          And again, statues and wall drawings, of Ashina (rulers of
          Khazars and Gokturks earlier) shows only Mongolic features.

          We are the only haplogroup within Mongolic race founded in
          Ashkenazi (with possible origin in Khazaria).

          It will be much complicated that we have C and O in Ashkenazi
          genetic pool.
          But there is not any.

          So in that time they was Chinese, Mongolians and Turks /with
          manly "White"-European characteristics ,and Mongolic-Oriental in
          smaller percentage/..
          Different cultures.

          Hazara people and Khazars (particulary Ashina) are not the same
          people.
          Different history, different religious and cultural paths,
          different circumstances, but most probably similar original
          location and at least part of time schedule.

          Alfred



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        • KRUPA
          Allesandro, A full beauty lies in a fact there in Europe there is no other haplogroups of North Asiatic-Mongolic type (in fact there is some, but in too small
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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            Allesandro,

            A full beauty lies in a fact there in Europe there is no other
            haplogroups of North Asiatic-Mongolic type (in fact there is
            some, but in too small percentage to conclude anything), except
            us (+some other small pockets)!

            Khazars was acknowledged of people of Turko-Mongolic stock.

            Rulers of Khazars was of Mongolic type.

            We didn't explain all as You want to point. That is a fact, but
            we have good direction where to look for final answer!

            Alfred
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          • Rebekah Canada
            Alessandro, It is true that C/C3 and N are not found in ether Ashkenazic or Sephardic populations. C is sometimes found in very low frequencies in non-Jewish
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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              Alessandro,

              It is true that C/C3 and N are not found in ether Ashkenazic or
              Sephardic populations. C is sometimes found in very low frequencies in
              non-Jewish European populations. It is maybe a fraction of a percent.
              N is found in the Scandinavian region and also in much lower amounts
              in the rest of Europe. Here is a map from ySearch.
              http://www.ysearch.org/haplomap_europe.asp?haplo=,N

              We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers about
              China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the Hazara got
              their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any group that traces
              their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.

              All of the other Haplogroups can be found though in the Balkans and
              the Levant. These make think of Macedonia and the Great Alexander. :-)

              Now I have a question that perhaps someone in the group can answer.
              When the Russians "evacuated" the Jewish populations from Latvia c.
              1915, where were they sent?

              Rebekah
            • KRUPA
              Rebekah, You said; We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the Hazara got
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                Rebekah,

                You said;
                "We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers
                about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the
                Hazara got their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any
                group that traces their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000
                years should have some C."

                Questions;
                1. You think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara got
                their C from the Mongol hoards.
                That if fine with me.
                But You don't think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara
                got their Q from the Mongol hoards, as well?
                Or You do?

                2. You agree that any group that traces their ancestry to
                Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.
                How many C we can find in Turkey?
                Turkic peoples definitely trace origin in Mongolia in last 1500
                years. Historic fact.
                Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?


                Alfred
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              • Rebekah Canada
                Yes. There are many different types of Q in Anatolia. I think that Dave placed a paper about Anatolia in the files. On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:55 AM, KRUPA
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                  Yes. There are many different types of Q in Anatolia. I think that
                  Dave placed a paper about Anatolia in the files.

                  On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:55 AM, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ka.t-com.hr> wrote:
                  ..
                  > Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                  >
                  > Alfred

                  --
                  Peace and Light,
                  Rebekah
                • Bob Vick
                  Rebekah, When one looks at the detailed numbers, if they are available in depth , do they point to the central Asia/Siberian regions in reverse mutations? Or
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                    Rebekah,

                     

                     When one looks at the detailed numbers, “if they are available in depth”, do they point to the central Asia/Siberian regions in reverse mutations? Or are we simply using higher % of population & calling it founder/origin.

                     

                     My continual question is did Q survive in these remote areas because they missed invasions & disease? When one looks at Q in the Americas it was surly prolific until the introduction of European disease & war. When one considers the 100% Q in the Americas & the +/- 4% in the rest of the “tested” world, one has to consider democide in corruption of analysis.

                    http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

                     

                     The Mr. Lee DNA of Scandinavia is the only ancient Q DNA I see in Y-Search; the rest is a 400 – 600 year separation to my numbers. With Q & R starting about the same time, one has to consider why Q is a lesser %.

                     

                    Bob the generalist.

                     

                     

                     


                    From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                    Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:40 AM
                    To: Q (Ashkenazi Group)
                    Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Sindhi and Hazara

                     

                    Hi,

                     

                    The Sindhi and Hazara samples come from Sengupta 2006. I have placed the new YCC 2008 names after the percentages. If we are going to call Q1b Mongol because it is found in the Hazara then we would have to say the same thing of all these other Haplogroups.

                     

                    The Hazara are:

                    n=22

                    C3    (M217)             10 45.45% C3

                    R1b2b (M073)              6 27.27% R1b1b1

                    Q1    (M120)              1  4.55% Q1a1

                    Q1a   (M378)              1  4.55% Q1b

                    I1c2  (M170\223\379)      1  4.55% I2b2

                    J2a   (M410)              1  4.55% J2a

                    O3    (M122)              2  9.09% O3

                     

                    The Sindhi are:

                    n= 21

                    J1   (M267)   1  4.76% J1

                    J2a  (M410)   4 19.05% J2a

                    J2b2 (M241)   2  9.52% J2b2

                    L3   (M357)   1  4.76% L3

                    Q1a  (M378)   1  4.76% Q1b

                    R1a1 (M017)  11 52.38% R1a1

                    R2   (M124)   1  4.76% R2

                     

                    With the exceptions of having L3, with a noticeably low level of J1, and an absence of R1b the Sindhi do resemble the Haplogroups of an Ashkenazic group. I will have to compare haplotypes. Perhaps this is flow along the silk road.

                     

                    Sadly, with this small sample, we can not make diversity comparisons.

                     

                     

                    Regards,

                    Rebekah

                  • Alessandro Felice Biondo
                    Alfred, ... the answer is in Cinnioglu: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia. On a total of 523 samples there are: C*-M216 2 samples C3-M217
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                      Alfred,

                      You said:

                      > How many C we can find in Turkey?
                      > Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?

                      the answer is in Cinnioglu: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata
                      in Anatolia. On a total of 523 samples there are:

                      C*-M216 2 samples
                      C3-M217 5 samples
                      N*-M233 15 samples
                      N3a-M178 5 samples
                      O3-M122 1 sample
                      Q*-M242 9 samples
                      Q2-MM25 1 sample

                      The 9 samples with Q*-M242 exhibit a high haplotype diversity: 1
                      sample (number 338) is identical to "our" Q, other 3 are almost equal
                      to us, other 5 (6 including the Q2-M25) are quite far from us. Again
                      what is interesting in Turkey is the presence of:
                      - high haplotype diversity of the Q's;
                      - some presence of haplogroups from East and North Asia: 20 N (M233
                      and M178) the double of Q*; 7 C (M216 and M217) almost the same
                      numbers of Q, 1 O of difficult interpretation.

                      Alessandro.



                      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Rebekah,
                      >
                      > You said;
                      > "We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers
                      > about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the
                      > Hazara got their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any
                      > group that traces their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000
                      > years should have some C."
                      >
                      > Questions;
                      > 1. You think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara got
                      > their C from the Mongol hoards.
                      > That if fine with me.
                      > But You don't think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara
                      > got their Q from the Mongol hoards, as well?
                      > Or You do?
                      >
                      > 2. You agree that any group that traces their ancestry to
                      > Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.
                      > How many C we can find in Turkey?
                      > Turkic peoples definitely trace origin in Mongolia in last 1500
                      > years. Historic fact.
                      > Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                      >
                      >
                      > Alfred
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                    • KRUPA
                      Allesandro, Isn t it interesting? This diversity of the Asiatic haplogroups just confirms history of this people of Turkic stock, and historically recorded
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                        Allesandro,

                        Isn't it interesting?
                        This diversity of the Asiatic haplogroups just confirms history
                        of this people of Turkic stock, and historically recorded
                        Central/North Asiatic origin.
                        Khazars was also people of Turkic stock(first as part of GokTurk
                        Khaganate and later as indenpendent state), but it really
                        appears that only ruling class converted to Judaism.
                        It should be noted (as we see) that it can be expected that
                        current Turkey inherited more reacher heritage then Khazaria.
                        Turkey is final stage of several earlier Turkic empires,
                        therefore this more richer genetic legacy in modern Turkey.
                        Modern Turkey is also based on territory of earlier Eastern
                        Roman Empire (Byzantinum).
                        Khazaria was stable state with organised religion, law system and
                        military force, while those kingdoms emerged and collapsed.
                        Ashina was first and founding Dynasty of Turks, remained in
                        Khazaria.
                        Other Dynasties followed.

                        Alfred


                        Citiram Alessandro Felice Biondo <alefbiondo@...>:

                        > Alfred,
                        >
                        > You said:
                        >
                        >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                        >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                        >
                        > the answer is in Cinnioglu: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata
                        > in Anatolia. On a total of 523 samples there are:
                        >
                        > C*-M216 2 samples
                        > C3-M217 5 samples
                        > N*-M233 15 samples
                        > N3a-M178 5 samples
                        > O3-M122 1 sample
                        > Q*-M242 9 samples
                        > Q2-MM25 1 sample
                        >
                        > The 9 samples with Q*-M242 exhibit a high haplotype diversity: 1
                        > sample (number 338) is identical to "our" Q, other 3 are almost equal
                        > to us, other 5 (6 including the Q2-M25) are quite far from us. Again
                        > what is interesting in Turkey is the presence of:
                        > - high haplotype diversity of the Q's;
                        > - some presence of haplogroups from East and North Asia: 20 N (M233
                        > and M178) the double of Q*; 7 C (M216 and M217) almost the same
                        > numbers of Q, 1 O of difficult interpretation.
                        >
                        > Alessandro.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> Rebekah,
                        >>
                        >> You said;
                        >> "We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers
                        >> about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the
                        >> Hazara got their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any
                        >> group that traces their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000
                        >> years should have some C."
                        >>
                        >> Questions;
                        >> 1. You think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara got
                        >> their C from the Mongol hoards.
                        >> That if fine with me.
                        >> But You don't think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara
                        >> got their Q from the Mongol hoards, as well?
                        >> Or You do?
                        >>
                        >> 2. You agree that any group that traces their ancestry to
                        >> Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.
                        >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                        >> Turkic peoples definitely trace origin in Mongolia in last 1500
                        >> years. Historic fact.
                        >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Alfred
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                        > ----------------------
                        >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
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                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >


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                      • NADENE GOLDFOOT
                        Alfred, You are classified as Q1b. We are Q1. How did you get the b? How is that different? I m just going for an upgrade from 25 to 37 markers now and am
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                          Alfred,
                          You are classified as Q1b.  We are Q1.  How did you get the b?  How is that different?  I'm just going for an upgrade from 25 to 37 markers now and am curious.  My grandfather was from "Russia", born about 1872, and was Jewish. 
                          Nadene
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: KRUPA
                          Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:14 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Sindhi and Hazara

                          Rebekah,

                          We will call Q1b Mongol, because whole Q is Mongol.But it is
                          interesting that this peoples are considered to be originaly
                          from Mongolia. Presence of Q, O and C confirms this.
                          Other comes "by the way". The Silk Road of course.
                          That is my point from very beginning (that is why I am saying
                          "recent" Asiatic origin, Khazaria was on one end of this way).
                          And it is very interesting emerging similarities with Hazara,
                          Sindhi and Ashkenazi (percentage of Q's) and presence of Q1b in
                          particular.
                          If we say similarities between possible K-Hazars, Hazara and
                          Sindhi sounds more normal, isnt it?

                          I have Q1b in exact matches list,as well in further mutations. I
                          see Q1b in others lists as well.

                          Rebekah, I just want to say that now we have more and more clear
                          and elaborated picture about path of our ancestors and who they
                          was.
                          Nothing is final, naturally!

                          Your weight is on biological side (and You contribution and
                          knowledge is huge!), my perhaps on comparison of facts,
                          particulary historic and personals.

                          Alfred

                          Citiram Rebekah Canada <rebekahthorn@ gmail.com>:

                          > Hi,
                          >
                          > The Sindhi and Hazara samples come from Sengupta 2006. I have placed the new
                          > YCC 2008 <http://www.familytr eedna.com/ pdf/2008- HaploChart_ GR_lores. pdf>names
                          > after the percentages. If we are going to call Q1b Mongol because it
                          > is found in the Hazara then we would have to say the same thing of all these
                          > other Haplogroups.
                          >
                          > The Hazara are:
                          > n=22
                          > C3 (M217) 10 45.45% C3
                          > R1b2b (M073) 6 27.27% R1b1b1
                          > Q1 (M120) 1 4.55% Q1a1
                          > Q1a (M378) 1 4.55% Q1b
                          > I1c2 (M170\223\379) 1 4.55% I2b2
                          > J2a (M410) 1 4.55% J2a
                          > O3 (M122) 2 9.09% O3
                          >
                          > The Sindhi are:
                          > n= 21
                          > J1 (M267) 1 4.76% J1
                          > J2a (M410) 4 19.05% J2a
                          > J2b2 (M241) 2 9.52% J2b2
                          > L3 (M357) 1 4.76% L3
                          > Q1a (M378) 1 4.76% Q1b
                          > R1a1 (M017) 11 52.38% R1a1
                          > R2 (M124) 1 4.76% R2
                          >
                          > With the exceptions of having L3, with a noticeably low level of J1, and an
                          > absence of R1b the Sindhi do resemble the Haplogroups of an Ashkenazic
                          > group. I will have to compare haplotypes. Perhaps this is flow along the
                          > silk road.
                          >
                          > Sadly, with this small sample, we can not make diversity comparisons.
                          >
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          > Rebekah
                          >

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                        • Alessandro Biondo
                          Alfred, what I see it is exactly the contrary: - as you write, all the time we have a well documented gene influx from Central and Northern Asia and Mongolia,
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                            Alfred,

                            what I see it is exactly the contrary:

                            - as you write, all the time we have a well documented gene influx
                            from Central and Northern Asia and Mongolia, like the Turkish invasion
                            of Anatolia (but the same is true for the Former Sovietic Central
                            Asias republics, for the Kalmyks in the Caucasus, for the Hazaras, and
                            so on), we have also at least one fraction of the wealth of
                            haplogroups you can find in those geographical area, not only one. And
                            in the Ashkenazi people this wealthness of asiatic haplogroup doesn't
                            exist.
                            - to affirm that ONLY the Khazarian ruling class, and ALL the
                            Khazarian ruling class, converted to Judaism, maybe it is true, even
                            if these two are two strongly demanding and tight conditions, put
                            together. But to affirm also that the ruling class was only Q, and
                            that all the Q were in the ruling class (and that the others than the
                            rulers were all different than Q), is far from any, proven historical
                            fact: for what it is known about archaelogy, history and genetic, in
                            the history we never had such a genetic "purity", not even at the dawn
                            of the humanity. And the habits of the nomadic people of the steppe,
                            that were always genetically mixed (as demonstrated by the genetic
                            evidence, even of the tested human remains in ancient burials), and
                            where the strongest was the ruler (and the strongest may belong to any
                            haplogroup, he has simply to be the strongest), offer no support to
                            this "genetic purity". The evidence from other Turkic-Mongolic people
                            for sure does not support this "genetic purity" of any class, rulers
                            or commoners, among them.

                            Alessandro.



                            --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Allesandro,
                            >
                            > Isn't it interesting?
                            > This diversity of the Asiatic haplogroups just confirms history
                            > of this people of Turkic stock, and historically recorded
                            > Central/North Asiatic origin.
                            > Khazars was also people of Turkic stock(first as part of GokTurk
                            > Khaganate and later as indenpendent state), but it really
                            > appears that only ruling class converted to Judaism.
                            > It should be noted (as we see) that it can be expected that
                            > current Turkey inherited more reacher heritage then Khazaria.
                            > Turkey is final stage of several earlier Turkic empires,
                            > therefore this more richer genetic legacy in modern Turkey.
                            > Modern Turkey is also based on territory of earlier Eastern
                            > Roman Empire (Byzantinum).
                            > Khazaria was stable state with organised religion, law system and
                            > military force, while those kingdoms emerged and collapsed.
                            > Ashina was first and founding Dynasty of Turks, remained in
                            > Khazaria.
                            > Other Dynasties followed.
                            >
                            > Alfred
                            >
                            >
                            > Citiram Alessandro Felice Biondo <alefbiondo@...>:
                            >
                            > > Alfred,
                            > >
                            > > You said:
                            > >
                            > >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                            > >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                            > >
                            > > the answer is in Cinnioglu: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata
                            > > in Anatolia. On a total of 523 samples there are:
                            > >
                            > > C*-M216 2 samples
                            > > C3-M217 5 samples
                            > > N*-M233 15 samples
                            > > N3a-M178 5 samples
                            > > O3-M122 1 sample
                            > > Q*-M242 9 samples
                            > > Q2-MM25 1 sample
                            > >
                            > > The 9 samples with Q*-M242 exhibit a high haplotype diversity: 1
                            > > sample (number 338) is identical to "our" Q, other 3 are almost equal
                            > > to us, other 5 (6 including the Q2-M25) are quite far from us. Again
                            > > what is interesting in Turkey is the presence of:
                            > > - high haplotype diversity of the Q's;
                            > > - some presence of haplogroups from East and North Asia: 20 N (M233
                            > > and M178) the double of Q*; 7 C (M216 and M217) almost the same
                            > > numbers of Q, 1 O of difficult interpretation.
                            > >
                            > > Alessandro.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@> wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >> Rebekah,
                            > >>
                            > >> You said;
                            > >> "We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In papers
                            > >> about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the
                            > >> Hazara got their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any
                            > >> group that traces their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000
                            > >> years should have some C."
                            > >>
                            > >> Questions;
                            > >> 1. You think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara got
                            > >> their C from the Mongol hoards.
                            > >> That if fine with me.
                            > >> But You don't think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara
                            > >> got their Q from the Mongol hoards, as well?
                            > >> Or You do?
                            > >>
                            > >> 2. You agree that any group that traces their ancestry to
                            > >> Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.
                            > >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                            > >> Turkic peoples definitely trace origin in Mongolia in last 1500
                            > >> years. Historic fact.
                            > >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> Alfred
                            > >> ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l
                            > > ----------------------
                            > >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                            > >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                            > >> http://shopping.tportal.hr
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l
                            ----------------------
                            > Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                            > Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
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                            >
                          • Alessandro Biondo
                            Alfred, no needs to use capital letters or dry words. If something is misunderstood, it happen sometimes, we need only to explain again our thought, in the
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 18, 2008
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                              Alfred,

                              no needs to use capital letters or dry words. If something is
                              misunderstood, it happen sometimes, we need only to explain again our
                              thought, in the interest of the group.
                              I understand very well your thought, but it is also true that all the
                              data we actually know about every population with a proven Turkic-
                              Mongolic genetic influence (for example Turkish, central asian Turks,
                              Kalmyks, Hazaras, but also centuries old mummies from Central and
                              North Asia) are talking us of a bunch of haplogroups not present
                              today in the Ashkenazi and European gene-pool. This is exactly what
                              the known data told us. That's exactly what I tried to comment.

                              Alessandro.


                              --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Allesandro,
                              >
                              > Please check earlier communication.
                              >
                              > I have NEVER STATED THAT I OR ANYBODY ELSE ASSUME THAT RULING
                              > CLASS OF KHAZARIA WAS CONSISTED ONLY OF Q'S.
                              >
                              > On contrary I assume that both Q and R1a (R1a1), as well others,
                              > was present in Ashina genetic pool.
                              >
                              > But, as for Q, case is most easier to test and prove.
                              >
                              > As for representation of rulers only with Mongolic features that
                              > is the fact, but it don't need to be absolute proof.
                              >
                              > Do You understand me now?
                              >
                              > Alfred
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Citiram Alessandro Biondo <alefbiondo@...>:
                              >
                              > > Alfred,
                              > >
                              > > what I see it is exactly the contrary:
                              > >
                              > > - as you write, all the time we have a well documented gene influx
                              > > from Central and Northern Asia and Mongolia, like the Turkish
                              invasion
                              > > of Anatolia (but the same is true for the Former Sovietic Central
                              > > Asias republics, for the Kalmyks in the Caucasus, for the
                              Hazaras, and
                              > > so on), we have also at least one fraction of the wealth of
                              > > haplogroups you can find in those geographical area, not only
                              one. And
                              > > in the Ashkenazi people this wealthness of asiatic haplogroup
                              doesn't
                              > > exist.
                              > > - to affirm that ONLY the Khazarian ruling class, and ALL the
                              > > Khazarian ruling class, converted to Judaism, maybe it is true,
                              even
                              > > if these two are two strongly demanding and tight conditions, put
                              > > together. But to affirm also that the ruling class was only Q, and
                              > > that all the Q were in the ruling class (and that the others than
                              the
                              > > rulers were all different than Q), is far from any, proven
                              historical
                              > > fact: for what it is known about archaelogy, history and
                              genetic, in
                              > > the history we never had such a genetic "purity", not even at the
                              dawn
                              > > of the humanity. And the habits of the nomadic people of the
                              steppe,
                              > > that were always genetically mixed (as demonstrated by the genetic
                              > > evidence, even of the tested human remains in ancient burials),
                              and
                              > > where the strongest was the ruler (and the strongest may belong
                              to any
                              > > haplogroup, he has simply to be the strongest), offer no support
                              to
                              > > this "genetic purity". The evidence from other Turkic-Mongolic
                              people
                              > > for sure does not support this "genetic purity" of any class,
                              rulers
                              > > or commoners, among them.
                              > >
                              > > Alessandro.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@> wrote:
                              > >>
                              > >> Allesandro,
                              > >>
                              > >> Isn't it interesting?
                              > >> This diversity of the Asiatic haplogroups just confirms history
                              > >> of this people of Turkic stock, and historically recorded
                              > >> Central/North Asiatic origin.
                              > >> Khazars was also people of Turkic stock(first as part of GokTurk
                              > >> Khaganate and later as indenpendent state), but it really
                              > >> appears that only ruling class converted to Judaism.
                              > >> It should be noted (as we see) that it can be expected that
                              > >> current Turkey inherited more reacher heritage then Khazaria.
                              > >> Turkey is final stage of several earlier Turkic empires,
                              > >> therefore this more richer genetic legacy in modern Turkey.
                              > >> Modern Turkey is also based on territory of earlier Eastern
                              > >> Roman Empire (Byzantinum).
                              > >> Khazaria was stable state with organised religion, law system and
                              > >> military force, while those kingdoms emerged and collapsed.
                              > >> Ashina was first and founding Dynasty of Turks, remained in
                              > >> Khazaria.
                              > >> Other Dynasties followed.
                              > >>
                              > >> Alfred
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >> Citiram Alessandro Felice Biondo <alefbiondo@>:
                              > >>
                              > >> > Alfred,
                              > >> >
                              > >> > You said:
                              > >> >
                              > >> >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                              > >> >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                              > >> >
                              > >> > the answer is in Cinnioglu: Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype
                              strata
                              > >> > in Anatolia. On a total of 523 samples there are:
                              > >> >
                              > >> > C*-M216 2 samples
                              > >> > C3-M217 5 samples
                              > >> > N*-M233 15 samples
                              > >> > N3a-M178 5 samples
                              > >> > O3-M122 1 sample
                              > >> > Q*-M242 9 samples
                              > >> > Q2-MM25 1 sample
                              > >> >
                              > >> > The 9 samples with Q*-M242 exhibit a high haplotype diversity:
                              1
                              > >> > sample (number 338) is identical to "our" Q, other 3 are
                              almost equal
                              > >> > to us, other 5 (6 including the Q2-M25) are quite far from us.
                              Again
                              > >> > what is interesting in Turkey is the presence of:
                              > >> > - high haplotype diversity of the Q's;
                              > >> > - some presence of haplogroups from East and North Asia: 20 N
                              (M233
                              > >> > and M178) the double of Q*; 7 C (M216 and M217) almost the same
                              > >> > numbers of Q, 1 O of difficult interpretation.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > Alessandro.
                              > >> >
                              > >> >
                              > >> >
                              > >> > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@>
                              wrote:
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >> Rebekah,
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >> You said;
                              > >> >> "We know C/C3 to be mostly of the peoples from China. In
                              papers
                              > >> >> about China it is common. It is far then to say that maybe the
                              > >> >> Hazara got their C from the Mongol hoards. I agree that any
                              > >> >> group that traces their ancestry to Mongolia in the last 5,000
                              > >> >> years should have some C."
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >> Questions;
                              > >> >> 1. You think that it is far then to say that maybe Hazara got
                              > >> >> their C from the Mongol hoards.
                              > >> >> That if fine with me.
                              > >> >> But You don't think that it is far then to say that maybe
                              Hazara
                              > >> >> got their Q from the Mongol hoards, as well?
                              > >> >> Or You do?
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >> 2. You agree that any group that traces their ancestry to
                              > >> >> Mongolia in the last 5,000 years should have some C.
                              > >> >> How many C we can find in Turkey?
                              > >> >> Turkic peoples definitely trace origin in Mongolia in last
                              1500
                              > >> >> years. Historic fact.
                              > >> >> Do we have Q in Turkey? Perhaps in Anatolia?
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >> Alfred
                              > >> >> ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l
                              > >> > ----------------------
                              > >> >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                              > >> >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                              > >> >> http://shopping.tportal.hr
                              > >> >>
                              > >> >
                              > >> >
                              > >> >
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >> ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l
                              > > ----------------------
                              > >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                              > >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                              > >> http://shopping.tportal.hr
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l -----------------
                              -----
                              > Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                              > Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
                              > http://shopping.tportal.hr
                              >
                            • KRUPA
                              Rebekah, How many Q1b we can find in Europe? And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)? Alfred ... Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
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                                Rebekah,

                                How many Q1b we can find in Europe?
                                And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?

                                Alfred
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                              • Rebekah Canada
                                Hi, That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend Alessandro has tested positive. He is from Sicily. Once more people at FTDNA test we be more
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
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                                  Hi,

                                  That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend Alessandro
                                  has tested positive. He is from Sicily. Once more people at FTDNA test
                                  we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in Europe
                                  but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.

                                  Rebekah


                                  2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ka.t-com.hr>:
                                  > Rebekah,
                                  >
                                  > How many Q1b we can find in Europe?
                                  > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                                  >
                                  > Alfred
                                • Bob Vick
                                  Rebekah, My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all American Vicks will be Q1b. Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
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                                    Rebekah,

                                     

                                     My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all American Vicks will be Q1b.

                                     

                                     Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one in this group tested?

                                     

                                     If you are wondering what a Viking Vick is doing on this board. I still see a gap in DNA data that does not exclude the possibility of a later day migration to escape the plagues of Europe . The genetic gap in Mr Lee’s Q in Sweden & the rest of the Norse Q people is just too great to call him the Siberian founder of all Norse source DNA. My Y search matches show the same genetic distance to Norway & Lithuania matches & a 2k to Mr Lee. As you know us Vick’s have an odd selection of markers with no near matches except our family group.

                                     

                                    Bob       

                                     


                                    From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                                    Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:23 AM
                                    To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara

                                     

                                    Hi,

                                    That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend Alessandro
                                    has tested positive. He is from Sicily . Once more people at FTDNA test
                                    we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in Europe
                                    but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.

                                    Rebekah

                                    2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ ka.t-com. hr>:

                                    > Rebekah,
                                    >
                                    > How many Q1b we can find in Europe ?
                                    > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                                    >
                                    > Alfred

                                  • Alessandro Biondo
                                    Bob I am a reader of DNA Forums and of RootsWeb GENEALOGY DNA, so I already knew of James Larry Vick and of his results, because he was so helpful to publish
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
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                                      Bob

                                      I am a reader of DNA Forums and of RootsWeb GENEALOGY DNA, so I
                                      already knew of James Larry Vick and of his results, because he was
                                      so helpful to publish here his result (I hope he is the same person).
                                      I know that now he decided also to test with 23andme and to share his
                                      Y-DNA result with the community of the genetic genealogist allowing
                                      Ann Turner to publish his result in her excel file: maybe compare the
                                      23andme result of a Q with our distant cousins R1 will be useful to
                                      better ubderstand what are the mutations shared between Q and R1 and
                                      what mutations are Q specific. What it is also interesting is that I
                                      see some Vick on the Q project web site administred by Rebekah, and
                                      all they are in the group 1 of the classification of Rebekah: so
                                      maybe Q1b-M378 is not specific to one group, but is shared among
                                      different groups (for group here I mean the group based on the
                                      Rebekah classification, not ethnical or geographical groups). If this
                                      is true, in M378 we have a quite ancient SNP (more than 2000 years),
                                      not useful to fix our more recent roots, but useful only to see a
                                      route of our ancestors. In effect from all the data I get about Q in
                                      Scandinavia (the Karlsonn paper's Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden,
                                      the data on yhrd, the data of the Scandinavian DNA project of FTDNA
                                      (administred by Rebekah) I see that the typical haplotype is far from
                                      mine of 2000-3000 years: much less than others Q, but not so recent
                                      as the common ancestor of just the group 3. Obviously these are
                                      thoughts that can be confirmed or totally rejected when
                                      representatives of the different type of Q (based on the haplotype,
                                      the STRs) will have their deep clade test. I hope many Qs of the
                                      different type will accept to have this deep clade test because it
                                      will be the first step toward a better understaing of our
                                      similarities and difference.

                                      Alessandro.


                                      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Vick" <Vick@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Rebekah,
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all
                                      American
                                      > Vicks will be Q1b.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one in this
                                      group
                                      > tested?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > If you are wondering what a Viking Vick is doing on this board. I
                                      still see
                                      > a gap in DNA data that does not exclude the possibility of a later
                                      day
                                      > migration to escape the plagues of Europe. The genetic gap in Mr
                                      Lee's Q in
                                      > Sweden & the rest of the Norse Q people is just too great to call
                                      him the
                                      > Siberian founder of all Norse source DNA. My Y search matches show
                                      the same
                                      > genetic distance to Norway & Lithuania matches & a 2k to Mr Lee. As
                                      you know
                                      > us Vick's have an odd selection of markers with no near matches
                                      except our
                                      > family group.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Bob
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > _____
                                      >
                                      > From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ashkenazi-
                                      Q@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      > Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                                      > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:23 AM
                                      > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hi,
                                      >
                                      > That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend
                                      Alessandro
                                      > has tested positive. He is from Sicily. Once more people at FTDNA
                                      test
                                      > we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in
                                      Europe
                                      > but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.
                                      >
                                      > Rebekah
                                      >
                                      > 2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ <mailto:mladen.krupa%40ka.t-com.hr>
                                      > ka.t-com.hr>:
                                      > > Rebekah,
                                      > >
                                      > > How many Q1b we can find in Europe?
                                      > > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                                      > >
                                      > > Alfred
                                      >
                                    • Alessandro Biondo
                                      Just to add that if the Q1b-M378 is shared between the groups 1 and 3 of the Rebekah classification, maybe we found the western SNP of Q, because all the other
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
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                                        Just to add that if the Q1b-M378 is shared between the groups 1 and 3
                                        of the Rebekah classification, maybe we found the western SNP of Q,
                                        because all the other SNP are only in Central and East Asia (and
                                        America). Maybe this fact has some relevance. But these are pure
                                        speculations if we don't have many Qs with their deep clade test:
                                        it's only a thought that was born when I observed that two person
                                        tested positive to M378 have different haplotype.

                                        Alessandro.


                                        --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Alessandro Biondo"
                                        <alefbiondo@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Bob
                                        >
                                        > I am a reader of DNA Forums and of RootsWeb GENEALOGY DNA, so I
                                        > already knew of James Larry Vick and of his results, because he was
                                        > so helpful to publish here his result (I hope he is the same
                                        person).
                                        > I know that now he decided also to test with 23andme and to share
                                        his
                                        > Y-DNA result with the community of the genetic genealogist allowing
                                        > Ann Turner to publish his result in her excel file: maybe compare
                                        the
                                        > 23andme result of a Q with our distant cousins R1 will be useful to
                                        > better ubderstand what are the mutations shared between Q and R1
                                        and
                                        > what mutations are Q specific. What it is also interesting is that
                                        I
                                        > see some Vick on the Q project web site administred by Rebekah, and
                                        > all they are in the group 1 of the classification of Rebekah: so
                                        > maybe Q1b-M378 is not specific to one group, but is shared among
                                        > different groups (for group here I mean the group based on the
                                        > Rebekah classification, not ethnical or geographical groups). If
                                        this
                                        > is true, in M378 we have a quite ancient SNP (more than 2000
                                        years),
                                        > not useful to fix our more recent roots, but useful only to see a
                                        > route of our ancestors. In effect from all the data I get about Q
                                        in
                                        > Scandinavia (the Karlsonn paper's Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden,
                                        > the data on yhrd, the data of the Scandinavian DNA project of FTDNA
                                        > (administred by Rebekah) I see that the typical haplotype is far
                                        from
                                        > mine of 2000-3000 years: much less than others Q, but not so recent
                                        > as the common ancestor of just the group 3. Obviously these are
                                        > thoughts that can be confirmed or totally rejected when
                                        > representatives of the different type of Q (based on the haplotype,
                                        > the STRs) will have their deep clade test. I hope many Qs of the
                                        > different type will accept to have this deep clade test because it
                                        > will be the first step toward a better understaing of our
                                        > similarities and difference.
                                        >
                                        > Alessandro.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Vick" <Vick@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Rebekah,
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all
                                        > American
                                        > > Vicks will be Q1b.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one in
                                        this
                                        > group
                                        > > tested?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > If you are wondering what a Viking Vick is doing on this board.
                                        I
                                        > still see
                                        > > a gap in DNA data that does not exclude the possibility of a
                                        later
                                        > day
                                        > > migration to escape the plagues of Europe. The genetic gap in Mr
                                        > Lee's Q in
                                        > > Sweden & the rest of the Norse Q people is just too great to call
                                        > him the
                                        > > Siberian founder of all Norse source DNA. My Y search matches
                                        show
                                        > the same
                                        > > genetic distance to Norway & Lithuania matches & a 2k to Mr Lee.
                                        As
                                        > you know
                                        > > us Vick's have an odd selection of markers with no near matches
                                        > except our
                                        > > family group.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Bob
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > _____
                                        > >
                                        > > From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ashkenazi-
                                        > Q@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        > > Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                                        > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:23 AM
                                        > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi,
                                        > >
                                        > > That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend
                                        > Alessandro
                                        > > has tested positive. He is from Sicily. Once more people at FTDNA
                                        > test
                                        > > we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in
                                        > Europe
                                        > > but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.
                                        > >
                                        > > Rebekah
                                        > >
                                        > > 2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ <mailto:mladen.krupa%40ka.t-com.hr>
                                        > > ka.t-com.hr>:
                                        > > > Rebekah,
                                        > > >
                                        > > > How many Q1b we can find in Europe?
                                        > > > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Alfred
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Bob Vick
                                        Alessandro, Yes it is the same James Larry Vick; I will meet him tomorrow with another 100 Vick s at a family reunion. It will be an interesting journey into
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jun 19, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment

                                          Alessandro,

                                           

                                           Yes it is the same James Larry Vick; I will meet him tomorrow with another 100 Vick’s at a family reunion. It will be an interesting journey into the effects of Mt & Y mixes in appearances of Q1b Vicks.

                                           

                                           Our line came to America in 1650 by Joseph Vick. We match none of the English or German Vick’s tested so far. We do show some near matches on 6 markers in Norway , however prior to 1650 many Europeans escaped north to avoid plagues & religious persecution. In my research it seems the genetic connections have a gap in genetic distance from 400 – 600 years back to the 2000 years back you mentioned.

                                           

                                           There are a few of us Vick’s that “feel” a Jewish connection; the science does not point there yet. But we know that many early American immigrants just simulated into the culture, societies & religions around them. There are a group of early American immigrants that all have that Q1b, yet show no close Vick connection. That fact makes me believe they all followed a long similar migration pattern, maybe from the same roots as the Ashkenazi Q.    

                                           

                                           I like your idea on western Q1b; it makes more sense than walking the Siberian ice. Yet I cannot ignore the similarities in horse DNA from Siberia & the Norwegian horses. Maybe there were two migrations of Q, one from the east & one from the south & we know the American Indian Q’s migrated yet another way. I do not know if you have read about similar American Indian & Jewish customs recorded in early America . Some appear to be hoaxes, yet some seem to have some validity. I don’t think anyone ever figured out the 10 Commandments written in ancient Hebrew found in the American West.

                                           http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/loslunas.html

                                           http://www.hope-of-israel.org/hebinusa.htm

                                           

                                          Cheers, Bob Vick      

                                           

                                           


                                          From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Alessandro Biondo
                                          Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:01 PM
                                          To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara

                                           

                                          Just to add that if the Q1b-M378 is shared between the groups 1 and 3
                                          of the Rebekah classification, maybe we found the western SNP of Q,
                                          because all the other SNP are only in Central and East Asia (and
                                          America ). Maybe this fact has some relevance. But these are pure
                                          speculations if we don't have many Qs with their deep clade test:
                                          it's only a thought that was born when I observed that two person
                                          tested positive to M378 have different haplotype.

                                          Alessandro.

                                          --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, "Alessandro Biondo"
                                          <alefbiondo@ ...> wrote:

                                          >
                                          > Bob
                                          >
                                          > I am a reader of DNA Forums and of RootsWeb GENEALOGY DNA, so I
                                          > already knew of James Larry Vick and of his results, because he was
                                          > so helpful to publish here his result (I hope he is the same
                                          person).
                                          > I know that now he decided also to test with 23andme and to share
                                          his
                                          > Y-DNA result with the community of the genetic genealogist allowing
                                          > Ann Turner to publish his result in her excel file: maybe compare
                                          the
                                          > 23andme result of a Q with our distant cousins R1 will be useful to
                                          > better ubderstand what are the mutations shared between Q and R1
                                          and
                                          > what mutations are Q specific. What it is also interesting is that
                                          I
                                          > see some Vick on the Q project web site administred by Rebekah, and
                                          > all they are in the group 1 of the classification of Rebekah: so
                                          > maybe Q1b-M378 is not specific to one group, but is shared among
                                          > different groups (for group here I mean the group based on the
                                          > Rebekah classification, not ethnical or geographical groups). If
                                          this
                                          > is true, in M378 we have a quite ancient SNP (more than 2000
                                          years),
                                          > not useful to fix our more recent roots, but useful only to see a
                                          > route of our ancestors. In effect from all the data I get about Q
                                          in
                                          > Scandinavia (the Karlsonn paper's Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden,
                                          > the data on yhrd, the data of the Scandinavian DNA project of FTDNA
                                          > (administred by Rebekah) I see that the typical haplotype is far
                                          from
                                          > mine of 2000-3000 years: much less than others Q, but not so recent
                                          > as the common ancestor of just the group 3. Obviously these are
                                          > thoughts that can be confirmed or totally rejected when
                                          > representatives of the different type of Q (based on the haplotype,
                                          > the STRs) will have their deep clade test. I hope many Qs of the
                                          > different type will accept to have this deep clade test because it
                                          > will be the first step toward a better understaing of our
                                          > similarities and difference.
                                          >
                                          > Alessandro.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com,
                                          "Bob Vick" <Vick@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Rebekah,
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all
                                          > American
                                          > > Vicks will be Q1b.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one in
                                          this
                                          > group
                                          > > tested?
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > If you are wondering what a Viking Vick is doing on this board.
                                          I
                                          > still see
                                          > > a gap in DNA data that does not exclude the possibility of a
                                          later
                                          > day
                                          > > migration to escape the plagues of Europe .
                                          The genetic gap in Mr
                                          > Lee's Q in
                                          > > Sweden
                                          & the rest of the Norse Q people is just too great to call
                                          > him the
                                          > > Siberian founder of all Norse source DNA. My Y search matches
                                          show
                                          > the same
                                          > > genetic distance to Norway
                                          & Lithuania matches & a 2k to Mr Lee.
                                          As
                                          > you know
                                          > > us Vick's have an odd selection of markers with no near matches
                                          > except our
                                          > > family group.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Bob
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > _____
                                          > >
                                          > > From: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
                                          [mailto:Ashkenazi-
                                          > Q@yahoogroups. com] On
                                          > > Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                                          > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:23 AM
                                          > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com
                                          > > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Hi,
                                          > >
                                          > > That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend
                                          > Alessandro
                                          > > has tested positive. He is from
                                          w:st="on">Sicily . Once more people at FTDNA
                                          > test
                                          > > we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in
                                          > Europe
                                          > > but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.
                                          > >
                                          > > Rebekah
                                          > >
                                          > > 2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ <mailto:mladen. krupa%40ka. t-com.hr>
                                          > > ka.t-com.hr> :
                                          > > > Rebekah,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > How many Q1b we can find in Europe ?
                                          > > > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Alfred
                                          > >
                                          >

                                        • Alessandro Biondo
                                          Bob, excuse me, about the 2000-3000 years I was not enough clear: when I talk about 2000-3000 years I mean my TMRCA from the typical Swedish Q haplotype, as
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Bob,

                                            excuse me, about the 2000-3000 years I was not enough clear: when I
                                            talk about 2000-3000 years I mean my TMRCA from the typical Swedish Q
                                            haplotype, as found in the Scandianavian Y project administred by
                                            Rebekah, and in the Q groups 1 and 2 of the Q project, and in the Q
                                            YDNA found in the Karlsson paper's: Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden.
                                            All the haplotypes I found in these works, if analyzed through the
                                            mymcgee web site, give me an estimate of 2000-3000 years for the
                                            common ancestor between me (I am in the group 3 of Rebekah) and the
                                            modal of each of these groups: the years differs according the values
                                            I used for the mutation rate and for the years/generations. As for
                                            reference, using the same values, when I compare myself to the modal
                                            of the group 3 (my group), I have an estimate of 600-1000 years from
                                            the modal.

                                            I hope this can help.

                                            Alessandro.


                                            --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Vick" <Vick@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Alessandro,
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yes it is the same James Larry Vick; I will meet him tomorrow with
                                            another
                                            > 100 Vick's at a family reunion. It will be an interesting journey
                                            into the
                                            > effects of Mt & Y mixes in appearances of Q1b Vicks.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Our line came to America in 1650 by Joseph Vick. We match none of the
                                            > English or German Vick's tested so far. We do show some near matches
                                            on 6
                                            > markers in Norway, however prior to 1650 many Europeans escaped north to
                                            > avoid plagues & religious persecution. In my research it seems the
                                            genetic
                                            > connections have a gap in genetic distance from 400 - 600 years back
                                            to the
                                            > 2000 years back you mentioned.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > There are a few of us Vick's that "feel" a Jewish connection; the
                                            science
                                            > does not point there yet. But we know that many early American
                                            immigrants
                                            > just simulated into the culture, societies & religions around them.
                                            There
                                            > are a group of early American immigrants that all have that Q1b, yet
                                            show no
                                            > close Vick connection. That fact makes me believe they all followed
                                            a long
                                            > similar migration pattern, maybe from the same roots as the
                                            Ashkenazi Q.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I like your idea on western Q1b; it makes more sense than walking the
                                            > Siberian ice. Yet I cannot ignore the similarities in horse DNA from
                                            Siberia
                                            > & the Norwegian horses. Maybe there were two migrations of Q, one
                                            from the
                                            > east & one from the south & we know the American Indian Q's migrated yet
                                            > another way. I do not know if you have read about similar American
                                            Indian &
                                            > Jewish customs recorded in early America. Some appear to be hoaxes,
                                            yet some
                                            > seem to have some validity. I don't think anyone ever figured out the 10
                                            > Commandments written in ancient Hebrew found in the American West.
                                            >
                                            > http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/loslunas.html
                                            >
                                            > http://www.hope-of-israel.org/hebinusa.htm
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Cheers, Bob Vick
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > _____
                                            >
                                            > From: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                            [mailto:Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com] On
                                            > Behalf Of Alessandro Biondo
                                            > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:01 PM
                                            > To: Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Just to add that if the Q1b-M378 is shared between the groups 1 and 3
                                            > of the Rebekah classification, maybe we found the western SNP of Q,
                                            > because all the other SNP are only in Central and East Asia (and
                                            > America). Maybe this fact has some relevance. But these are pure
                                            > speculations if we don't have many Qs with their deep clade test:
                                            > it's only a thought that was born when I observed that two person
                                            > tested positive to M378 have different haplotype.
                                            >
                                            > Alessandro.
                                            >
                                            > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            yahoogroups.com,
                                            > "Alessandro Biondo"
                                            > <alefbiondo@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Bob
                                            > >
                                            > > I am a reader of DNA Forums and of RootsWeb GENEALOGY DNA, so I
                                            > > already knew of James Larry Vick and of his results, because he was
                                            > > so helpful to publish here his result (I hope he is the same
                                            > person).
                                            > > I know that now he decided also to test with 23andme and to share
                                            > his
                                            > > Y-DNA result with the community of the genetic genealogist allowing
                                            > > Ann Turner to publish his result in her excel file: maybe compare
                                            > the
                                            > > 23andme result of a Q with our distant cousins R1 will be useful to
                                            > > better ubderstand what are the mutations shared between Q and R1
                                            > and
                                            > > what mutations are Q specific. What it is also interesting is that
                                            > I
                                            > > see some Vick on the Q project web site administred by Rebekah, and
                                            > > all they are in the group 1 of the classification of Rebekah: so
                                            > > maybe Q1b-M378 is not specific to one group, but is shared among
                                            > > different groups (for group here I mean the group based on the
                                            > > Rebekah classification, not ethnical or geographical groups). If
                                            > this
                                            > > is true, in M378 we have a quite ancient SNP (more than 2000
                                            > years),
                                            > > not useful to fix our more recent roots, but useful only to see a
                                            > > route of our ancestors. In effect from all the data I get about Q
                                            > in
                                            > > Scandinavia (the Karlsonn paper's Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden,
                                            > > the data on yhrd, the data of the Scandinavian DNA project of FTDNA
                                            > > (administred by Rebekah) I see that the typical haplotype is far
                                            > from
                                            > > mine of 2000-3000 years: much less than others Q, but not so recent
                                            > > as the common ancestor of just the group 3. Obviously these are
                                            > > thoughts that can be confirmed or totally rejected when
                                            > > representatives of the different type of Q (based on the haplotype,
                                            > > the STRs) will have their deep clade test. I hope many Qs of the
                                            > > different type will accept to have this deep clade test because it
                                            > > will be the first step toward a better understaing of our
                                            > > similarities and difference.
                                            > >
                                            > > Alessandro.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > yahoogroups.com, "Bob Vick" <Vick@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Rebekah,
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > My cousin James Larry Vick tested Q1b, I think at M378 so all
                                            > > American
                                            > > > Vicks will be Q1b.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Are you saying Alessandro is Q1b, and that is the only one in
                                            > this
                                            > > group
                                            > > > tested?
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > If you are wondering what a Viking Vick is doing on this board.
                                            > I
                                            > > still see
                                            > > > a gap in DNA data that does not exclude the possibility of a
                                            > later
                                            > > day
                                            > > > migration to escape the plagues of Europe. The genetic gap in Mr
                                            > > Lee's Q in
                                            > > > Sweden & the rest of the Norse Q people is just too great to call
                                            > > him the
                                            > > > Siberian founder of all Norse source DNA. My Y search matches
                                            > show
                                            > > the same
                                            > > > genetic distance to Norway & Lithuania matches & a 2k to Mr Lee.
                                            > As
                                            > > you know
                                            > > > us Vick's have an odd selection of markers with no near matches
                                            > > except our
                                            > > > family group.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Bob
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > _____
                                            > > >
                                            > > > From: Ashkenazi-Q@ <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > yahoogroups.com [mailto:Ashkenazi-
                                            > > Q@yahoogroups. <mailto:Q%40yahoogroups.com> com] On
                                            > > > Behalf Of Rebekah Canada
                                            > > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:23 AM
                                            > > > To: Ashkenazi-Q@ <mailto:Ashkenazi-Q%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > Subject: Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: Sindhi and Hazara
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Hi,
                                            > > >
                                            > > > That is the only study that has tested for M378. Our friend
                                            > > Alessandro
                                            > > > has tested positive. He is from Sicily. Once more people at FTDNA
                                            > > test
                                            > > > we be more sure of the STR marker values. There are other Qs in
                                            > > Europe
                                            > > > but I think that they will be branches of Q1a.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Rebekah
                                            > > >
                                            > > > 2008/6/19 KRUPA <mladen.krupa@ <mailto:mladen.krupa%40ka.t-com.hr>
                                            > > > ka.t-com.hr>:
                                            > > > > Rebekah,
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > How many Q1b we can find in Europe?
                                            > > > > And in other places (except Hazara and Sindhi)?
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Alfred
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • Rebekah Canada
                                            Alessandro, How many markers are you using with the mymcgee web site? Regards, Rebekah
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Alessandro,

                                              How many markers are you using with the mymcgee web site?

                                              Regards,
                                              Rebekah
                                            • Alessandro Biondo
                                              Rebekah, for the 2 ftdna project you lead, I used all the markers available for all the members (very easy task to download them in excel, and from here upload
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Rebekah,

                                                for the 2 ftdna project you lead, I used all the markers available for
                                                all the members (very easy task to download them in excel, and from
                                                here upload to mymcgee), for the Karlsson paper the 9 STR published are:
                                                DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385a DYS385b DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II.

                                                In the mymcgee I used both the Ftdna and the McDonald as Mutation
                                                rate, and I used 25 years as years/generation.

                                                I compared myself to the modal of other groups, but I did not make
                                                comparisons between the groups.

                                                Regards.


                                                --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Rebekah Canada"
                                                <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Alessandro,
                                                >
                                                > How many markers are you using with the mymcgee web site?
                                                >
                                                > Regards,
                                                > Rebekah
                                                >
                                              • Rebekah Canada
                                                Alessandro, Yes, I have used mymcgee.:-) I ask because I believe that the 9 and 12 marker sets underestimate the common ancestor calculation. For group 3/4
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Alessandro,

                                                  Yes, I have used mymcgee.:-) I ask because I believe that the 9 and 12
                                                  marker sets underestimate the common ancestor calculation. For group
                                                  3/4 things may be very off as often only those who have exact matches
                                                  upgrade to more markers. So it is "close' cousins who are testing and
                                                  shifting the results.

                                                  Regards,
                                                  Rebekah
                                                • Alessandro Biondo
                                                  Rebekah, I agree with you that mymcgee it is not a perfect tool, and moreover that a big problem we face it is the quantity and quality of the statistical
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Rebekah,

                                                    I agree with you that mymcgee it is not a perfect tool, and moreover
                                                    that a big problem we face it is the quantity and quality of the
                                                    statistical samples, both for the number of markers tested and for
                                                    the number of samples (that it is the most important factor to impact
                                                    on the way the modal is build). I also observed that if I use few
                                                    markers I am less distant than if I use more markers. For these
                                                    reasons I give no absolute value to the number of years I can estimate
                                                    with it: anway it can give us some useful indications, even if it is
                                                    important to clarify that it is necessary to use these results with
                                                    caution, without losing the general frame and the question of the
                                                    quality and quantity of the samples to be compare.

                                                    A more complete result from my research (with Ftdna as mutation rate,
                                                    and 25 years as years/generation)comparing the individual samples is:
                                                    Scandinavian Q_YDNA: from 1475 to 2450 years, the 6 67 marker samples
                                                    are at 1725/2250 years
                                                    Group 1: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 8 67 marker samples are at
                                                    2075-2450 years
                                                    Group 2: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 7 67 markers are at 1725-2075 years

                                                    It is only an example, and I repeat, no absolute meaning to these
                                                    data, but maybe, as I hope, some useful information. With all the
                                                    comparision we can do, and with all the needed cautions, maybe if I
                                                    think of a distance from me and the members of Swedish-group1-group2
                                                    members a bit more than double (a bit less than triple) than the
                                                    distance that divide me from the other members of the group 3 (for
                                                    which a TMRCA of approx 1000 years seems to be prevaling), I am
                                                    thinking a not so unlikely fact.
                                                    For sure it will be a much more interesting thing to discover if
                                                    really we (the group 1/2 and 3/4) share the same M378 mutation of the
                                                    Swedish-group1-group2 group, and this mutation maybe split all of us
                                                    from the prevaling Asian subclades. But this is only a hazardous and
                                                    untimely suggestion until many Q of different branches will have their
                                                    deep clade test done.

                                                    Regards.

                                                    Alessandro.


                                                    --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Rebekah Canada"
                                                    <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Alessandro,
                                                    >
                                                    > Yes, I have used mymcgee.:-) I ask because I believe that the 9 and 12
                                                    > marker sets underestimate the common ancestor calculation. For group
                                                    > 3/4 things may be very off as often only those who have exact matches
                                                    > upgrade to more markers. So it is "close' cousins who are testing and
                                                    > shifting the results.
                                                    >
                                                    > Regards,
                                                    > Rebekah
                                                    >
                                                  • Alessandro Biondo
                                                    Rebekah and all, excuse me: when I was reading my previous post I observed a possible ... All the years I talked are the distance from me of these
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                                      Rebekah and all,

                                                      excuse me: when I was reading my previous post I observed a possible
                                                      source of misunderstanding. Concerning the following:

                                                      >Scandinavian Q_YDNA: from 1475 to 2450 years, the 6 67 marker samples
                                                      >are at 1725/2250 years
                                                      >Group 1: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 8 67 marker samples are at
                                                      >2075-2450 years
                                                      >Group 2: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 7 67 markers are at 1725-2075
                                                      >years

                                                      All the years I talked are the distance from me of these
                                                      samples-groups, not the TMRCA of the group.

                                                      Excuse me again if I was not so clear.

                                                      Alessandro.


                                                      --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Alessandro Biondo"
                                                      <alefbiondo@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Rebekah,
                                                      >
                                                      > I agree with you that mymcgee it is not a perfect tool, and moreover
                                                      > that a big problem we face it is the quantity and quality of the
                                                      > statistical samples, both for the number of markers tested and for
                                                      > the number of samples (that it is the most important factor to impact
                                                      > on the way the modal is build). I also observed that if I use few
                                                      > markers I am less distant than if I use more markers. For these
                                                      > reasons I give no absolute value to the number of years I can estimate
                                                      > with it: anway it can give us some useful indications, even if it is
                                                      > important to clarify that it is necessary to use these results with
                                                      > caution, without losing the general frame and the question of the
                                                      > quality and quantity of the samples to be compare.
                                                      >
                                                      > A more complete result from my research (with Ftdna as mutation rate,
                                                      > and 25 years as years/generation)comparing the individual samples is:
                                                      > Scandinavian Q_YDNA: from 1475 to 2450 years, the 6 67 marker samples
                                                      > are at 1725/2250 years
                                                      > Group 1: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 8 67 marker samples are at
                                                      > 2075-2450 years
                                                      > Group 2: from 1475 to 3025 years, the 7 67 markers are at 1725-2075
                                                      years
                                                      >
                                                      > It is only an example, and I repeat, no absolute meaning to these
                                                      > data, but maybe, as I hope, some useful information. With all the
                                                      > comparision we can do, and with all the needed cautions, maybe if I
                                                      > think of a distance from me and the members of Swedish-group1-group2
                                                      > members a bit more than double (a bit less than triple) than the
                                                      > distance that divide me from the other members of the group 3 (for
                                                      > which a TMRCA of approx 1000 years seems to be prevaling), I am
                                                      > thinking a not so unlikely fact.
                                                      > For sure it will be a much more interesting thing to discover if
                                                      > really we (the group 1/2 and 3/4) share the same M378 mutation of the
                                                      > Swedish-group1-group2 group, and this mutation maybe split all of us
                                                      > from the prevaling Asian subclades. But this is only a hazardous and
                                                      > untimely suggestion until many Q of different branches will have their
                                                      > deep clade test done.
                                                      >
                                                      > Regards.
                                                      >
                                                      > Alessandro.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Rebekah Canada"
                                                      > <rebekahthorn@> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Alessandro,
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Yes, I have used mymcgee.:-) I ask because I believe that the 9 and 12
                                                      > > marker sets underestimate the common ancestor calculation. For group
                                                      > > 3/4 things may be very off as often only those who have exact matches
                                                      > > upgrade to more markers. So it is "close' cousins who are testing and
                                                      > > shifting the results.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Regards,
                                                      > > Rebekah
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • Rebekah Canada
                                                      Alessandro, If you want to get more complicated... Try putting in the modal for the Dimond family and one for each of the Sizemore families. Try it first for
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                                        Alessandro,

                                                        If you want to get more complicated... Try putting in the modal for
                                                        the Dimond family and one for each of the Sizemore families.

                                                        Try it first for those six marker that the old papers used, then for
                                                        12, then for 25, and 37, and finally 67.

                                                        Regards,
                                                        Rebekah
                                                      • Alessandro Biondo
                                                        Rebekah, what I see if I play this strange game is that in this case the more are the marker, the closer are the samples in term of TMRCA, even if they belong
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                                          Rebekah,

                                                          what I see if I play this strange game is that in this case the more
                                                          are the marker, the closer are the samples in term of TMRCA, even if
                                                          they belong to different haplogroups.
                                                          I think that in general, clustering a group of sample can results in
                                                          some dubious cases anytime we face with not pure or not
                                                          straightforward sample.
                                                          Anyway we need to rely on the tools we have, it is only important to
                                                          know the weak point of every tool as well the strong points, and to
                                                          extract from every tool only what they can.

                                                          Regards.

                                                          Alessandro.


                                                          --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, "Rebekah Canada"
                                                          <rebekahthorn@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > Alessandro,
                                                          >
                                                          > If you want to get more complicated... Try putting in the modal for
                                                          > the Dimond family and one for each of the Sizemore families.
                                                          >
                                                          > Try it first for those six marker that the old papers used, then for
                                                          > 12, then for 25, and 37, and finally 67.
                                                          >
                                                          > Regards,
                                                          > Rebekah
                                                          >
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