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Re: [Ashkenazi-Q] Re: I Need to Clarify What I Mean by KhazarianConnection

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  • Rebekah Canada
    Hi, That is High-Resolution SNPs and Microsatellite Haplotypes Point to a Single, Recent Entry of Native American Y Chromosomes into the Americas Stephen L.
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 17, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi,

      That is
      High-Resolution SNPs and Microsatellite Haplotypes Point to a Single,
      Recent Entry of Native American Y Chromosomes into the Americas
      Stephen L. Zegura , Tatiana M. Karafet , Lev A. Zhivotovsky , and
      Michael F. Hammer
      MBE Advance Access published on January 1, 2004, DOI 10.1093/molbev/msh009.
      Mol Biol Evol 21: 164-175.

      The free text is here.
      http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/21/1/164

      --
      Peace and Light,
      Rebekah
    • Dave Howard
      Barry, I have searched and searched and as far as I can find there is no study that attempts to define the yDNA makeup of the Khazarians. I have found several
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 18, 2008
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        Barry,

        I have searched and searched and as far as I can find there is no
        study that attempts to define the yDNA makeup of the Khazarians.

        I have found several references that say this would be an excellent
        future project.

        Additionally, when Khazar crumbled as a nation it merged with the
        Maygars and many of those people are in Hungary today. Many Hungarian
        Jewish people are modern descendants of those Khazars. There are still
        place names and Khazarian words in place in those areas.

        Khazarian apparently were like the inhabitants of the Caucasus
        mountains area, i.e. stocky build, light skin, red hair and light
        colored eyes.

        Forgetting about Haplogroup Q, I know many Ashkenazi Jewish people who
        have that build, skin, hair and eye color. In fact, that is what I
        look like.

        Dave


        --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Barryzwick@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hello, Comrades,
        >
        > I have been under the impression that, since we have no Khazar DNA
        in any
        > database, we must rely on matches with neighboring peoples to
        determine whether
        > there is a demonstrable relationship between us and the Khazars.
        >
        > Those neighboring peoples include Georgians, Azeris, Armenians and
        Chechens.
        >
        > Does Haplotype Q occur frequently among these people? Does anyone know?
        >
        > Thanks.
        >
        >
        > Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 6/15/2008 1:23:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
        > mladen.krupa@... writes:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I am glad to see this further explanation from Dave.
        >
        > Well, I wanted to say that if we dont share mutation for Q1b it
        > will not disapprove Khazarian origin.
        > That is because it is normal that always there was a mixture of
        > population, including mixture of Q's (some will share this
        > "additional" mutation, some will not).
        > But, also as pointed by Dave earlier and now, and me somwhere in
        > the middle, we cannot look only on SNP's as they emerged
        > thousands of years of ago. Haplotypes will show us more recent
        > connection, even if we will not share mutation for Q1b
        > classification.
        >
        > I strongly believe that our Y-chromosome is of the Gok-Turk and
        > then Khazarian origin, and from maternal side we will share
        > Israelite origin (that is why we (some of us) have Levit
        > tradition).
        >
        > I will conclude this communication for today with one also
        > earlier mentioned fact: we are the only representatives of
        > Mongolic Race in Ashkenazi. There is no others; C,O..
        > Just we-the Q's.
        > It is very significant fact, as this truth separate us from any
        > Middle Eastern, or European group or race.
        > And also (as pointed earlier) because rulers of the Gok-Turk and
        > Khazarian Empire (Jewish Converts) are represented as people of
        > Mongolic Race. That exclude R1a, and R1a1, as well as other R's
        > as second non-israelite haplogroup.
        > It is just a leading, but I find all this far too much similar to
        > be mere coincidence.
        >
        > And for Mr.Biondo's interesting writing; we are all descendants
        > of people from Eastern African soil.
        >
        > Alfred
        >
        > Citiram Dave Howard <_dshoward@..._ (mailto:dshoward@...) >:
        >
        > > Prof. Krupa is correct that there is evidence that there was a
        > > Khazarian conversion and some of their DNA may have entered the
        > > Ashkenazi gene
        > > pool.
        > >
        > > This is not inconsistent with my point. We have no disagreement.
        > >
        > > My point is that the Khazars are not necessarily the source of our
        > > Haplogroup-Q Y-Chromosome. That they may have provided some of
        our DNA
        > > does not mean that they are also the source of our yDNA.
        > >
        > > If Haplogroup-Q yDNA was in the Khazarian group it will
        > > be interesting to see if they had the M378 SNP mutation. It will be
        > > interesting to see if we really have it as well.
        > >
        > > One does suspect the Khazars as a possible source in that our common
        > > ancestor lived within the last 1,000 years. However, his
        appearance may
        > > or may not coincide with the Khazarian period.
        > >
        > > That we may all share a common ancestor within the last 1,000
        years is
        > > based on our STRs and not our SNPs. I believe this is what Prof. Kupa
        > > means by "New DNA" vs. "Old DNA." The STR mutations are recent
        events.
        > > Our SNP mutations took place thousands of years ago.
        > >
        > > You may find the Khazarian links Prof. Krupa provided to be
        interesting,
        > > as I
        > > did.
        > >
        > > At the same time make sure you read the excellent Wikipedia article
        > > that discusses the Khazars including the controversy caused by the
        > > book The Thirteenth Tribe as well as the current anti-semitic theory
        > > that is popular among Arab states today.
        > >
        > > _http://en.wikipediahttp://en.http://_
        > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars)
        > > <_http://en.wikipediahttp://en.http://_
        > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars) >
        > >
        > > Here is a brief snippet from the Wikipedia article. (I strongly
        > > recommend reading the whole article at the link. The referenced
        > > footnotes are in the full article.)
        > >
        > > The National Academy of Science study referred to below is
        included in
        > > our "Files" section entitled "Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Easterners
        > > same yDNA pool.pdf." I encourage you to look it over.
        > >
        > > DNA Evidence
        > >
        > > Most Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, do not exhibit the oriental
        > > features of the Khazars, who were likely of Central Asian Turkish
        > > origin. Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have
        > > also discredited the Khazar origin theory for the vast majority of
        > > Jews, including the Ashkenazi.
        > >
        > > A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that "The
        > > results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish
        > > communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended
        > > from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that
        > > most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from
        > > neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."
        > > [2]. Researchers express surprise at the remarkable genetic
        uniformity
        > > they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora has become
        > > dispersed around the world. Contradicting the "mongrel" theory, DNA
        > > demonstrated substantially less inter-marriage among Jews over the
        > > last 3000 years than found in other populations.
        > >
        > > "The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute
        > > theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of
        > > converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the
        > > Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism." [3] [43]
        > >
        > > Morever, "The analysis provides genetic witness that these
        communities
        > > have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological identity
        > > separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively little
        > > intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries." Id. And
        > > another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the
        > > yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities are
        > > closely related to Syrians and Palestinians[ closely related to
        > > are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the
        > > Middle East some four thousand years ago. Id.
        > >
        > > This study found that "The extremely close affinity of Jewish and
        > > non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports the
        > > hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin.",[45] as does the
        > > mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of at least 40% of the current Ashkenazi
        > > population.[ population.[<WBR>19] So although Khazars could possibly
        > > into the modern Jewish population as we know it today, it is unlikely
        > > that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern
        Jews.[46]
        > >
        > >
        > > Dave
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > ---------------------------------<WBR>---------<WBR>- T - C o m
        ----------
        > Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
        > Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's
        Best
        > 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
        >
      • KRUPA
        Dear Dave, You have pointed several interesting things. My grandfather was very short man - 162 cm only, like his brother and sister (buried alive in Dachau),
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 18, 2008
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          Dear Dave,

          You have pointed several interesting things.
          My grandfather was very short man - 162 cm only, like his brother
          and sister (buried alive in Dachau), very strong builded (pre-war
          amateur champion in boxing of Poland), round head, thin lipses,
          very white skin, dark-blue eyes. Something like blue asian.
          Later generations are taller, but not too tall, still white
          skinned, strong builded.
          My sister looked in chilhood like Chinese. I have two sisters and
          brother and we all was blonde up to some age.

          I have several Hungarian Jews and converts to Christianity, in my
          exact match and near exact match lists.
          But main direction is to todays Ukraine (western Khazaria).

          Dr.Greenspan told me that it will be very difficult to find
          usable DNA in Khazarian graves, due to local climate. And that
          actually nobody is planning to undertake research in that field,
          what is odd situation for my understanding of this matter.

          Allesandro,

          Capital letters was only to underline my idea. Nothing else. As
          matter in fact I didnt write so much in English for years now!
          I cannot explain why there is no other Asiatic haplogroups in
          Ashkenazi community. As You, I can only predict or assume what
          can be reason for such state in Ashkenazi genetic pool.
          But, I am ,after all taken in consideration,pretty much convinced
          that we are from Khazaria.
          Most of us, at least.

          One hypothesis; maybe we are direct descendants of the Jewish
          Imperial family of Khazaria, not of wider ruling class? Maybe
          that is why statues shows Mongolic features? Who knows what will
          come on surface in future!
          We can only make hypothesis by now, for such statement.

          Regards,

          Alfred




          Citiram Dave Howard <dshoward@...>:

          > Barry,
          >
          > I have searched and searched and as far as I can find there is no
          > study that attempts to define the yDNA makeup of the Khazarians.
          >
          > I have found several references that say this would be an excellent
          > future project.
          >
          > Additionally, when Khazar crumbled as a nation it merged with the
          > Maygars and many of those people are in Hungary today. Many Hungarian
          > Jewish people are modern descendants of those Khazars. There are still
          > place names and Khazarian words in place in those areas.
          >
          > Khazarian apparently were like the inhabitants of the Caucasus
          > mountains area, i.e. stocky build, light skin, red hair and light
          > colored eyes.
          >
          > Forgetting about Haplogroup Q, I know many Ashkenazi Jewish people who
          > have that build, skin, hair and eye color. In fact, that is what I
          > look like.
          >
          > Dave
          >
          >
          > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Barryzwick@... wrote:
          >>
          >>
          >> Hello, Comrades,
          >>
          >> I have been under the impression that, since we have no Khazar DNA
          > in any
          >> database, we must rely on matches with neighboring peoples to
          > determine whether
          >> there is a demonstrable relationship between us and the Khazars.
          >>
          >> Those neighboring peoples include Georgians, Azeris, Armenians and
          > Chechens.
          >>
          >> Does Haplotype Q occur frequently among these people? Does anyone know?
          >>
          >> Thanks.
          >>
          >>
          >> Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
          >>
          >>
          >> In a message dated 6/15/2008 1:23:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
          >> mladen.krupa@... writes:
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> I am glad to see this further explanation from Dave.
          >>
          >> Well, I wanted to say that if we dont share mutation for Q1b it
          >> will not disapprove Khazarian origin.
          >> That is because it is normal that always there was a mixture of
          >> population, including mixture of Q's (some will share this
          >> "additional" mutation, some will not).
          >> But, also as pointed by Dave earlier and now, and me somwhere in
          >> the middle, we cannot look only on SNP's as they emerged
          >> thousands of years of ago. Haplotypes will show us more recent
          >> connection, even if we will not share mutation for Q1b
          >> classification.
          >>
          >> I strongly believe that our Y-chromosome is of the Gok-Turk and
          >> then Khazarian origin, and from maternal side we will share
          >> Israelite origin (that is why we (some of us) have Levit
          >> tradition).
          >>
          >> I will conclude this communication for today with one also
          >> earlier mentioned fact: we are the only representatives of
          >> Mongolic Race in Ashkenazi. There is no others; C,O..
          >> Just we-the Q's.
          >> It is very significant fact, as this truth separate us from any
          >> Middle Eastern, or European group or race.
          >> And also (as pointed earlier) because rulers of the Gok-Turk and
          >> Khazarian Empire (Jewish Converts) are represented as people of
          >> Mongolic Race. That exclude R1a, and R1a1, as well as other R's
          >> as second non-israelite haplogroup.
          >> It is just a leading, but I find all this far too much similar to
          >> be mere coincidence.
          >>
          >> And for Mr.Biondo's interesting writing; we are all descendants
          >> of people from Eastern African soil.
          >>
          >> Alfred
          >>
          >> Citiram Dave Howard <_dshoward@..._ (mailto:dshoward@...) >:
          >>
          >> > Prof. Krupa is correct that there is evidence that there was a
          >> > Khazarian conversion and some of their DNA may have entered the
          >> > Ashkenazi gene
          >> > pool.
          >> >
          >> > This is not inconsistent with my point. We have no disagreement.
          >> >
          >> > My point is that the Khazars are not necessarily the source of our
          >> > Haplogroup-Q Y-Chromosome. That they may have provided some of
          > our DNA
          >> > does not mean that they are also the source of our yDNA.
          >> >
          >> > If Haplogroup-Q yDNA was in the Khazarian group it will
          >> > be interesting to see if they had the M378 SNP mutation. It will be
          >> > interesting to see if we really have it as well.
          >> >
          >> > One does suspect the Khazars as a possible source in that our common
          >> > ancestor lived within the last 1,000 years. However, his
          > appearance may
          >> > or may not coincide with the Khazarian period.
          >> >
          >> > That we may all share a common ancestor within the last 1,000
          > years is
          >> > based on our STRs and not our SNPs. I believe this is what Prof. Kupa
          >> > means by "New DNA" vs. "Old DNA." The STR mutations are recent
          > events.
          >> > Our SNP mutations took place thousands of years ago.
          >> >
          >> > You may find the Khazarian links Prof. Krupa provided to be
          > interesting,
          >> > as I
          >> > did.
          >> >
          >> > At the same time make sure you read the excellent Wikipedia article
          >> > that discusses the Khazars including the controversy caused by the
          >> > book The Thirteenth Tribe as well as the current anti-semitic theory
          >> > that is popular among Arab states today.
          >> >
          >> > _http://en.wikipediahttp://en.http://_
          >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars)
          >> > <_http://en.wikipediahttp://en.http://_
          >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars) >
          >> >
          >> > Here is a brief snippet from the Wikipedia article. (I strongly
          >> > recommend reading the whole article at the link. The referenced
          >> > footnotes are in the full article.)
          >> >
          >> > The National Academy of Science study referred to below is
          > included in
          >> > our "Files" section entitled "Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Easterners
          >> > same yDNA pool.pdf." I encourage you to look it over.
          >> >
          >> > DNA Evidence
          >> >
          >> > Most Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, do not exhibit the oriental
          >> > features of the Khazars, who were likely of Central Asian Turkish
          >> > origin. Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have
          >> > also discredited the Khazar origin theory for the vast majority of
          >> > Jews, including the Ashkenazi.
          >> >
          >> > A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that "The
          >> > results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish
          >> > communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended
          >> > from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that
          >> > most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from
          >> > neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."
          >> > [2]. Researchers express surprise at the remarkable genetic
          > uniformity
          >> > they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora has become
          >> > dispersed around the world. Contradicting the "mongrel" theory, DNA
          >> > demonstrated substantially less inter-marriage among Jews over the
          >> > last 3000 years than found in other populations.
          >> >
          >> > "The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute
          >> > theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of
          >> > converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the
          >> > Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism." [3] [43]
          >> >
          >> > Morever, "The analysis provides genetic witness that these
          > communities
          >> > have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological identity
          >> > separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively little
          >> > intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries." Id. And
          >> > another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the
          >> > yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities are
          >> > closely related to Syrians and Palestinians[ closely related to
          >> > are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the
          >> > Middle East some four thousand years ago. Id.
          >> >
          >> > This study found that "The extremely close affinity of Jewish and
          >> > non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports the
          >> > hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin.",[45] as does the
          >> > mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of at least 40% of the current Ashkenazi
          >> > population.[ population.[<WBR>19] So although Khazars could possibly
          >> > into the modern Jewish population as we know it today, it is unlikely
          >> > that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern
          > Jews.[46]
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > Dave
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >>
          >> ---------------------------------<WBR>---------<WBR>- T - C o m
          > ----------
          >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
          >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
          >> _http://shopping.http://sho_ (http://shopping.tportal.hr/)
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's
          > Best
          >> 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
          >>
          >
          >
          >


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        • Alessandro Biondo
          Alfred, First of all, let me explain that, because we are dealing with such a difficult matter, it may happen that some misunderstanding arrive. We are more
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 18, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Alfred,

            First of all, let me explain that, because we are dealing with such a
            difficult matter, it may happen that some misunderstanding arrive. We
            are more subject to misunderstandig because we need to explain, and
            understand, such complex topics in a language that is foreign for
            both us: I hope our american friends and you will excuse me if
            sometime something is not enough clear in my comments or enough
            understood by me.
            Let me add that I think that these days we are learning something one
            other's. The discussions are useful for this reason, even if
            something they are a bit frustrating, for the difficult to deal with
            complex matters, and to express these matters in a intelligible way.
            For the question of the lack of asian haplogroup, this discussion
            bring me to do some further thinking, and maybe there is a possible,
            biological reason: founder's effect. But I am not a scientist, so I
            don't know if this effect can apply to the history of the Jewish
            people in Europe: for sure there is an isolation, but I don't know if
            there was enough isolation, and if enough time passed to leave the
            founder's effect free to act. So we are again chained at the same
            point: we need more data and more, deeper, axplanations about more
            facts. But in the future, with more data (biology, archaeology,
            history and other fields can offer their contribute) and maybe also
            with some little help from thoughts from the different peoples
            commenting in this group, we have the hope to dominate a larger
            picture of our roots.

            Friendly.

            Alessandro.

            --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, KRUPA <mladen.krupa@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Dave,
            >
            > You have pointed several interesting things.
            > My grandfather was very short man - 162 cm only, like his brother
            > and sister (buried alive in Dachau), very strong builded (pre-war
            > amateur champion in boxing of Poland), round head, thin lipses,
            > very white skin, dark-blue eyes. Something like blue asian.
            > Later generations are taller, but not too tall, still white
            > skinned, strong builded.
            > My sister looked in chilhood like Chinese. I have two sisters and
            > brother and we all was blonde up to some age.
            >
            > I have several Hungarian Jews and converts to Christianity, in my
            > exact match and near exact match lists.
            > But main direction is to todays Ukraine (western Khazaria).
            >
            > Dr.Greenspan told me that it will be very difficult to find
            > usable DNA in Khazarian graves, due to local climate. And that
            > actually nobody is planning to undertake research in that field,
            > what is odd situation for my understanding of this matter.
            >
            > Allesandro,
            >
            > Capital letters was only to underline my idea. Nothing else. As
            > matter in fact I didnt write so much in English for years now!
            > I cannot explain why there is no other Asiatic haplogroups in
            > Ashkenazi community. As You, I can only predict or assume what
            > can be reason for such state in Ashkenazi genetic pool.
            > But, I am ,after all taken in consideration,pretty much convinced
            > that we are from Khazaria.
            > Most of us, at least.
            >
            > One hypothesis; maybe we are direct descendants of the Jewish
            > Imperial family of Khazaria, not of wider ruling class? Maybe
            > that is why statues shows Mongolic features? Who knows what will
            > come on surface in future!
            > We can only make hypothesis by now, for such statement.
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Alfred
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Citiram Dave Howard <dshoward@...>:
            >
            > > Barry,
            > >
            > > I have searched and searched and as far as I can find there is no
            > > study that attempts to define the yDNA makeup of the Khazarians.
            > >
            > > I have found several references that say this would be an
            excellent
            > > future project.
            > >
            > > Additionally, when Khazar crumbled as a nation it merged with the
            > > Maygars and many of those people are in Hungary today. Many
            Hungarian
            > > Jewish people are modern descendants of those Khazars. There are
            still
            > > place names and Khazarian words in place in those areas.
            > >
            > > Khazarian apparently were like the inhabitants of the Caucasus
            > > mountains area, i.e. stocky build, light skin, red hair and light
            > > colored eyes.
            > >
            > > Forgetting about Haplogroup Q, I know many Ashkenazi Jewish
            people who
            > > have that build, skin, hair and eye color. In fact, that is what I
            > > look like.
            > >
            > > Dave
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In Ashkenazi-Q@yahoogroups.com, Barryzwick@ wrote:
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> Hello, Comrades,
            > >>
            > >> I have been under the impression that, since we have no Khazar
            DNA
            > > in any
            > >> database, we must rely on matches with neighboring peoples to
            > > determine whether
            > >> there is a demonstrable relationship between us and the Khazars.
            > >>
            > >> Those neighboring peoples include Georgians, Azeris, Armenians
            and
            > > Chechens.
            > >>
            > >> Does Haplotype Q occur frequently among these people? Does
            anyone know?
            > >>
            > >> Thanks.
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> In a message dated 6/15/2008 1:23:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
            > >> mladen.krupa@ writes:
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> I am glad to see this further explanation from Dave.
            > >>
            > >> Well, I wanted to say that if we dont share mutation for Q1b it
            > >> will not disapprove Khazarian origin.
            > >> That is because it is normal that always there was a mixture of
            > >> population, including mixture of Q's (some will share this
            > >> "additional" mutation, some will not).
            > >> But, also as pointed by Dave earlier and now, and me somwhere in
            > >> the middle, we cannot look only on SNP's as they emerged
            > >> thousands of years of ago. Haplotypes will show us more recent
            > >> connection, even if we will not share mutation for Q1b
            > >> classification.
            > >>
            > >> I strongly believe that our Y-chromosome is of the Gok-Turk and
            > >> then Khazarian origin, and from maternal side we will share
            > >> Israelite origin (that is why we (some of us) have Levit
            > >> tradition).
            > >>
            > >> I will conclude this communication for today with one also
            > >> earlier mentioned fact: we are the only representatives of
            > >> Mongolic Race in Ashkenazi. There is no others; C,O..
            > >> Just we-the Q's.
            > >> It is very significant fact, as this truth separate us from any
            > >> Middle Eastern, or European group or race.
            > >> And also (as pointed earlier) because rulers of the Gok-Turk and
            > >> Khazarian Empire (Jewish Converts) are represented as people of
            > >> Mongolic Race. That exclude R1a, and R1a1, as well as other R's
            > >> as second non-israelite haplogroup.
            > >> It is just a leading, but I find all this far too much similar
            to
            > >> be mere coincidence.
            > >>
            > >> And for Mr.Biondo's interesting writing; we are all descendants
            > >> of people from Eastern African soil.
            > >>
            > >> Alfred
            > >>
            > >> Citiram Dave Howard <_dshoward@_ (mailto:dshoward@) >:
            > >>
            > >> > Prof. Krupa is correct that there is evidence that there was a
            > >> > Khazarian conversion and some of their DNA may have entered
            the
            > >> > Ashkenazi gene
            > >> > pool.
            > >> >
            > >> > This is not inconsistent with my point. We have no
            disagreement.
            > >> >
            > >> > My point is that the Khazars are not necessarily the source
            of our
            > >> > Haplogroup-Q Y-Chromosome. That they may have provided some of
            > > our DNA
            > >> > does not mean that they are also the source of our yDNA.
            > >> >
            > >> > If Haplogroup-Q yDNA was in the Khazarian group it will
            > >> > be interesting to see if they had the M378 SNP mutation. It
            will be
            > >> > interesting to see if we really have it as well.
            > >> >
            > >> > One does suspect the Khazars as a possible source in that our
            common
            > >> > ancestor lived within the last 1,000 years. However, his
            > > appearance may
            > >> > or may not coincide with the Khazarian period.
            > >> >
            > >> > That we may all share a common ancestor within the last 1,000
            > > years is
            > >> > based on our STRs and not our SNPs. I believe this is what
            Prof. Kupa
            > >> > means by "New DNA" vs. "Old DNA." The STR mutations are recent
            > > events.
            > >> > Our SNP mutations took place thousands of years ago.
            > >> >
            > >> > You may find the Khazarian links Prof. Krupa provided to be
            > > interesting,
            > >> > as I
            > >> > did.
            > >> >
            > >> > At the same time make sure you read the excellent Wikipedia
            article
            > >> > that discusses the Khazars including the controversy caused
            by the
            > >> > book The Thirteenth Tribe as well as the current anti-semitic
            theory
            > >> > that is popular among Arab states today.
            > >> >
            > >> > _http://en.wikipediahttp://en.http://_
            > >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars)
            > >> > <_http://en.wikipediahttp://en.http://_
            > >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars) >
            > >> >
            > >> > Here is a brief snippet from the Wikipedia article. (I
            strongly
            > >> > recommend reading the whole article at the link. The
            referenced
            > >> > footnotes are in the full article.)
            > >> >
            > >> > The National Academy of Science study referred to below is
            > > included in
            > >> > our "Files" section entitled "Jewish and non-Jewish Middle
            Easterners
            > >> > same yDNA pool.pdf." I encourage you to look it over.
            > >> >
            > >> > DNA Evidence
            > >> >
            > >> > Most Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, do not exhibit the
            oriental
            > >> > features of the Khazars, who were likely of Central Asian
            Turkish
            > >> > origin. Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews
            worldwide have
            > >> > also discredited the Khazar origin theory for the vast
            majority of
            > >> > Jews, including the Ashkenazi.
            > >> >
            > >> > A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found
            that "The
            > >> > results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools
            of Jewish
            > >> > communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East
            descended
            > >> > from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and
            suggest that
            > >> > most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from
            > >> > neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the
            Diaspora."
            > >> > [2]. Researchers express surprise at the remarkable genetic
            > > uniformity
            > >> > they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora
            has become
            > >> > dispersed around the world. Contradicting the "mongrel"
            theory, DNA
            > >> > demonstrated substantially less inter-marriage among Jews
            over the
            > >> > last 3000 years than found in other populations.
            > >> >
            > >> > "The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and
            refute
            > >> > theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist
            mostly of
            > >> > converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from
            the
            > >> > Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism." [3]
            [43]
            > >> >
            > >> > Morever, "The analysis provides genetic witness that these
            > > communities
            > >> > have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological
            identity
            > >> > separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively
            little
            > >> > intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries."
            Id. And
            > >> > another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the
            > >> > yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities
            are
            > >> > closely related to Syrians and Palestinians[ closely related
            to
            > >> > are descended from a common ancestral population that
            inhabited the
            > >> > Middle East some four thousand years ago. Id.
            > >> >
            > >> > This study found that "The extremely close affinity of Jewish
            and
            > >> > non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports
            the
            > >> > hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin.",[45] as does
            the
            > >> > mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of at least 40% of the current
            Ashkenazi
            > >> > population.[ population.[<WBR>19] So although Khazars could
            possibly
            > >> > into the modern Jewish population as we know it today, it is
            unlikely
            > >> > that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern
            > > Jews.[46]
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> > Dave
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >>
            > >> ---------------------------------<WBR>---------<WBR>- T - C o m
            > > ----------
            > >> Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
            > >> Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
            > >> _http://shopping.http://sho_ (http://shopping.tportal.hr/)
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife.
            City's
            > > Best
            > >> 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------- T - C o m - - W e b m a i l -----------------
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          • Barryzwick@aol.com
            Thanks so much for all your research, Dave, not only on this but on other DNA questions. There is a conflict between Alfred s insistence that Khazars were
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 18, 2008
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              Thanks so much for all your research, Dave, not only on this but on other DNA questions.
               
              There is a conflict between Alfred's insistence that Khazars were Mongolian and your own personal description. I suspect that red hair and light-colored eyes are rare among Mongolians. You can't both be right.
               
              As to whether the Khazars "merged" with the Magyars, I have never read that it was anything quite that concrete. The Khazars indeed left some traces in Hungary. Whether this was a mass movement is quite another matter. Since so many of the Khazars were Muslim, how could it come to be that Judaism survived among the Khazarian transplants, but Islam did not?
               
              Since the Khazars did not chronicle what became of themselves, we can only guess. They diverged strongly from the people among whom they lived, who kept track of every ruler, every harvest and every battle. The Khazars had no written language. This alone would have made their survival as Jews close to miraculous. They could have left records in Hebrew, true, but we have no evidence that they did.
               
              I'm afraid I remain a skeptic.
               
              I'm following this discussion with a great deal of interest. We are lucky that so many well-informed people share our genetic heritage.
               
              Barry
               
              Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
               
               
              In a message dated 6/18/2008 11:29:29 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, dshoward@... writes:

              Barry,

              I have searched and searched and as far as I can find there is no
              study that attempts to define the yDNA makeup of the Khazarians.

              I have found several references that say this would be an excellent
              future project.

              Additionally, when Khazar crumbled as a nation it merged with the
              Maygars and many of those people are in Hungary today. Many Hungarian
              Jewish people are modern descendants of those Khazars. There are still
              place names and Khazarian words in place in those areas.

              Khazarian apparently were like the inhabitants of the Caucasus
              mountains area, i.e. stocky build, light skin, red hair and light
              colored eyes.

              Forgetting about Haplogroup Q, I know many Ashkenazi Jewish people who
              have that build, skin, hair and eye color. In fact, that is what I
              look like.

              Dave

              --- In Ashkenazi-Q@ yahoogroups. com, Barryzwick@. .. wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hello, Comrades,
              >
              > I have been under the impression that, since we have no Khazar DNA
              in any
              > database, we must rely on matches with neighboring peoples to
              determine whether
              > there is a demonstrable relationship between us and the Khazars.
              >
              > Those neighboring peoples include Georgians, Azeris, Armenians and
              Chechens.
              >
              > Does Haplotype Q occur frequently among these people? Does anyone know?
              >
              > Thanks.
              >
              >
              > Barry Zwick in Los Angeles
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 6/15/2008 1:23:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
              > mladen.krupa@ ... writes:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I am glad to see this further explanation from Dave.
              >
              > Well, I wanted to say that if we dont share mutation for Q1b it
              > will not disapprove Khazarian origin.
              > That is because it is normal that always there was a mixture of
              > population, including mixture of Q's (some will share this
              > "additional" mutation, some will not).
              > But, also as pointed by Dave earlier and now, and me somwhere in
              > the middle, we cannot look only on SNP's as they emerged
              > thousands of years of ago. Haplotypes will show us more recent
              > connection, even if we will not share mutation for Q1b
              > classification.
              >
              > I strongly believe that our Y-chromosome is of the Gok-Turk and
              > then Khazarian origin, and from maternal side we will share
              > Israelite origin (that is why we (some of us) have Levit
              > tradition).
              >
              > I will conclude this communication for today with one also
              > earlier mentioned fact: we are the only representatives of
              > Mongolic Race in Ashkenazi. There is no others; C,O..
              > Just we-the Q's.
              > It is very significant fact, as this truth separate us from any
              > Middle Eastern, or European group or race.
              > And also (as pointed earlier) because rulers of the Gok-Turk and
              > Khazarian Empire (Jewish Converts) are represented as people of
              > Mongolic Race. That exclude R1a, and R1a1, as well as other R's
              > as second non-israelite haplogroup.
              > It is just a leading, but I find all this far too much similar to
              > be mere coincidence.
              >
              > And for Mr.Biondo's interesting writing; we are all descendants
              > of people from Eastern African soil.
              >
              > Alfred
              >
              > Citiram Dave Howard <_dshoward@. .._ (mailto:dshoward@ ...) >:
              >
              > > Prof. Krupa is correct that there is evidence that there was a
              > > Khazarian conversion and some of their DNA may have entered the
              > > Ashkenazi gene
              > > pool.
              > >
              > > This is not inconsistent with my point. We have no disagreement.
              > >
              > > My point is that the Khazars are not necessarily the source of our
              > > Haplogroup-Q Y-Chromosome. That they may have provided some of
              our DNA
              > > does not mean that they are also the source of our yDNA.
              > >
              > > If Haplogroup-Q yDNA was in the Khazarian group it will
              > > be interesting to see if they had the M378 SNP mutation. It will be
              > > interesting to see if we really have it as well.
              > >
              > > One does suspect the Khazars as a possible source in that our common
              > > ancestor lived within the last 1,000 years. However, his
              appearance may
              > > or may not coincide with the Khazarian period.
              > >
              > > That we may all share a common ancestor within the last 1,000
              years is
              > > based on our STRs and not our SNPs. I believe this is what Prof. Kupa
              > > means by "New DNA" vs. "Old DNA." The STR mutations are recent
              events.
              > > Our SNP mutations took place thousands of years ago.
              > >
              > > You may find the Khazarian links Prof. Krupa provided to be
              interesting,
              > > as I
              > > did.
              > >
              > > At the same time make sure you read the excellent Wikipedia article
              > > that discusses the Khazars including the controversy caused by the
              > > book The Thirteenth Tribe as well as the current anti-semitic theory
              > > that is popular among Arab states today.
              > >
              > > _http://en.wikipedia http://en. http://_
              > (http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Khazars)
              > > <_http://en.wikipedia http://en. http://_
              > (http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Khazars) >
              > >
              > > Here is a brief snippet from the Wikipedia article. (I strongly
              > > recommend reading the whole article at the link. The referenced
              > > footnotes are in the full article.)
              > >
              > > The National Academy of Science study referred to below is
              included in
              > > our "Files" section entitled "Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Easterners
              > > same yDNA pool.pdf." I encourage you to look it over.
              > >
              > > DNA Evidence
              > >
              > > Most Jews, including Ashkenazi Jews, do not exhibit the oriental
              > > features of the Khazars, who were likely of Central Asian Turkish
              > > origin. Modern DNA studies on the Y chromosome of Jews worldwide have
              > > also discredited the Khazar origin theory for the vast majority of
              > > Jews, including the Ashkenazi.
              > >
              > > A study published by the National Academy of Sciences found that "The
              > > results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish
              > > communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended
              > > from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that
              > > most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from
              > > neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."
              > > [2]. Researchers express surprise at the remarkable genetic
              uniformity
              > > they found among modern Jews, no matter where the diaspora has become
              > > dispersed around the world. Contradicting the "mongrel" theory, DNA
              > > demonstrated substantially less inter-marriage among Jews over the
              > > last 3000 years than found in other populations.
              > >
              > > "The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute
              > > theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of
              > > converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the
              > > Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism." [3] [43]
              > >
              > > Morever, "The analysis provides genetic witness that these
              communities
              > > have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological identity
              > > separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively little
              > > intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries." Id. And
              > > another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the
              > > yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities are
              > > closely related to Syrians and Palestinians[ closely related to
              > > are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the
              > > Middle East some four thousand years ago. Id.
              > >
              > > This study found that "The extremely close affinity of Jewish and
              > > non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed ... supports the
              > > hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin.",[45] as does the
              > > mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of at least 40% of the current Ashkenazi
              > > population.[ population.[ <WBR>19] So although Khazars could possibly
              > > into the modern Jewish population as we know it today, it is unlikely
              > > that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern
              Jews.[46]
              > >
              > >
              > > Dave
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > ------------ --------- --------- ---<WBR>- --------< WBR>- T - C o m
              ----------
              > Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge
              > Uzivajte u shoppingu ne napustajuci udobnost svoga doma!
              > _http://shopping. http://sho_ (http://shopping. tportal.hr/)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ************ **Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's
              Best
              > 2008. (http://citysbest. aol.com?ncid= aolacg0005000000 0102)
              >

               




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            • KRUPA
              Barry, I am red, particulary in beard. Khazars used Turkic Runes, and later Hebrew. Alfred ... Ova poruka poslana je upotrebom T-Com Webmail usluge Uzivajte u
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 18, 2008
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                Barry,

                I am red, particulary in beard.

                Khazars used Turkic Runes, and later Hebrew.


                Alfred




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